Farewell, Tomcat

[Jay Honeck]

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848

What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
them flying anymore....
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>
> What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
> them flying anymore....

Didn't know they were so close to the end. I remember pulling up near
one near the hold short line at my home field (training visit, I
assume). The sheer size of them is amazing- 75,000 pounds MTOW. Tower
said, "Boston has you cleared to FL240 immediately upon departure" and
they just opened up and the ground shook. It's like the old muscle-car
guys say, "there's no replacement for displacement."

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Eu1Ue.317206$x96.66402@attbi_s72...
> http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>
> What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
> them flying anymore....
> --


Didn't know they were down to one last squadron. I figured the Bombcat
configuration would keep it alive for a while.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>>
>>What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
>>them flying anymore....
>
>
> Didn't know they were so close to the end. I remember pulling up near
> one near the hold short line at my home field (training visit, I
> assume). The sheer size of them is amazing- 75,000 pounds MTOW. Tower
> said, "Boston has you cleared to FL240 immediately upon departure" and
> they just opened up and the ground shook. It's like the old muscle-car
> guys say, "there's no replacement for displacement."
>

Although the smarter muscle car guys did say "the only replacement for
cubic inches is cubic dollars."


Matt

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>
>What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
>them flying anymore....

Nothing else carries the Phoenix, right?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Q: How did you get into artificial intelligence?
A: Seemed logical -- I didn't have any real intelligence.

[LWG]

Yeah, but at 40 to 60 hours of maintenance for every flight hour, the
Tomcats make that Apache driver's $46,000-plus annual a bargain!


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>>
>> What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to
>> see
>> them flying anymore....
>
> Didn't know they were so close to the end. I remember pulling up near
> one near the hold short line at my home field (training visit, I
> assume). The sheer size of them is amazing- 75,000 pounds MTOW. Tower
> said, "Boston has you cleared to FL240 immediately upon departure" and
> they just opened up and the ground shook. It's like the old muscle-car
> guys say, "there's no replacement for displacement."
>

[Jay Honeck]

>>What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
>>them flying anymore....
>
> Nothing else carries the Phoenix, right?

Yeah, I guess where the Tomcat goes, so goeth the Phoenix.

I sure hope we don't come up against any major air-to-air enemies in the
next few years...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[W P Dixon]

The AIM-54 Phoenix was retired Sept. 30 2004. This info according to the
Navy News Service on Oct 10 2004.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Jx6Ue.317571$x96.54711@attbi_s72...
>>>What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to
>>>see
>>>them flying anymore....
>>
>> Nothing else carries the Phoenix, right?
>
> Yeah, I guess where the Tomcat goes, so goeth the Phoenix.
>
> I sure hope we don't come up against any major air-to-air enemies in the
> next few years...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Tom]

Great airplane. I was out at the Tillamook air show a few years ago and one
was there. When he departed he flew around the valley and then down the
runway at a low altitude and then pulled it straight up and went to
afterburner or full power. It went up almost out of sight and shook the
ground, us and our planes.

Very impressive


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Eu1Ue.317206$x96.66402@attbi_s72...
> http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>
> What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
> them flying anymore....
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> >>What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
> >>them flying anymore....
> >
> > Nothing else carries the Phoenix, right?
>
> Yeah, I guess where the Tomcat goes, so goeth the Phoenix.
>
> I sure hope we don't come up against any major air-to-air enemies in the
> next few years...

It's my understanding that the AMRAAM system is qualitatively superior.
Of all the defense issues I worry about, air-to-air is the least of my
concerns.

-cwk.

[john smith]

> What an amazing run the F-14 has had.

Only 35 years, but then fighters don't seem to have the longevity of
bombers.

[john smith]

> Yeah, but at 40 to 60 hours of maintenance for every flight hour, the
> Tomcats make that Apache driver's $46,000-plus annual a bargain!

Man-hours?

[john smith]

> I sure hope we don't come up against any major air-to-air enemies in the
> next few years...

-F model Super Hornet is the replacement.

[Jay Honeck]

>> I sure hope we don't come up against any major air-to-air enemies in the
>> next few years...
>
> -F model Super Hornet is the replacement.

From what I've read, the Super Hornet doesn't have nearly the range or the
payload of a Tomcat.

True?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Scott Cunningham]

A very sad day, but the economics simply don't support the plane any longer.

Saw this picture of a Tomcat breaking the sound barrier over on the
naval aviation group:

http://pip.rubberfeet.org/desktop_pics/Sonic_boom/Sonic_boom1152x768.jpg

Scott

Jay Honeck wrote:
> http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=91550&ran=22848
>
> What an amazing run the F-14 has had. It will be terribly sad not to see
> them flying anymore....

[Thomas Borchert]

Paul,

> Nothing else carries the Phoenix, right?
>

Whcih was fired in earnest exactly how many times?

These days, rules of engagement almost always call for visual id before
shooting, or at least making a lot surer you know who you're shooting
at than is possible from 100 miles away.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Denny]

I missed the Apache $46K annual... Where is that posted?

Denny and Fat Albert the Apache

[Dan Luke]

"Denny" wrote:

>I missed the Apache $46K annual... Where is that posted?
>

Hee-hee!

That lit up your radar, didn't it, Denny?

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Jay Honeck]

>I missed the Apache $46K annual... Where is that posted?

Actually, he's referring to Jim Burns' Aztec. See rec.aviation.owning.

(And, no, Jim didn't pay that -- a previous owner did, back in 2000?)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>A very sad day, but the economics simply don't support the plane any
>longer.

Say what you want about the movie, but the Tomcat in "Top Gun" did more for
naval aviation than any other single thing.

The navy got their money's worth, times ten, from the F-14.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

> > Nothing else carries the Phoenix, right?

> Whcih was fired in earnest exactly how many times?
> These days, rules of engagement almost always call for visual id before
> shooting, or at least making a lot surer you know who you're shooting
> at than is possible from 100 miles away.

Thomas, you obviously have not seen footage as recorded through the
target/imaging pods! They can see a LONG way off! Couple the onboard
sensors with airborne C&C AWACs and you are going to have a very high
probability of knowing friend from foe.

[john smith]

> > -F model Super Hornet is the replacement.

> From what I've read, the Super Hornet doesn't have nearly the range or the
> payload of a Tomcat.
> True?

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f18ef/
Yes, the result of a drag penalty of the new wing and underwing stores.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-18ef.htm

Three missions from one basic airframe.
F-18E single seat fighter/bomber replaces the F-18C "Hornet"
F-18F two seat fighter/bomber replaces the F-14D "Tom Cat"
and another version, the EF-18G "Growler", replaces the Grumman EA-6B
"Prowler" ECM aircraft.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> > -F model Super Hornet is the replacement.
>
>> From what I've read, the Super Hornet doesn't have nearly the range or
>> the
>> payload of a Tomcat.
>> True?
>
> http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f18ef/
> Yes, the result of a drag penalty of the new wing and underwing stores.
>
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-18ef.htm
>
> Three missions from one basic airframe.
> F-18E single seat fighter/bomber replaces the F-18C "Hornet"
> F-18F two seat fighter/bomber replaces the F-14D "Tom Cat"
> and another version, the EF-18G "Growler", replaces the Grumman EA-6B
> "Prowler" ECM aircraft.

Now they just need to replace the Viking anti-sub plane with a S-18 variant
and parts stores can be reduced significantly.

[Denny]

Just like a Tomcat driver, that made my "radar lock" alarm go off, big
time...


>That lit up your radar, didn't it, Denny?

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Say what you want about the movie, but the Tomcat in "Top Gun" did more
> for naval aviation than any other single thing.


I choose my film... "Flight Command" (1940)
" ...the film likely also contributed to turning the tide of public opinion
toward a willingness to fight the rise of fascism in Europe."

http://www.turnerclassicmovies.com/Multimedia/Popup/0,,62160|62163,00.html
View movie trailer for this 1940 film - worked for me but I had to wait for
it.

From the trailer:
The real "Hell Cats"- The saga of the Eyes of the Navy


GOOD GOOD STUFF BELOW. No really, some interesting reading in the links...
In-The-Links.

For instance, Greg (Pappy) Boyington and Paul Mantz both worked on this film
(bottom link). Robert Taylor took up flying because of this film and, later,
became a Navy flying instructor during WWII (top link).

BTW, my review of "Flight Command" (1940)... ok silly love story at best,
GREAT plane story.

<http://www.turnerclassicmovies.com/ThisMonth/Article/0,,93522%7C93523%7C62543,00.html>
Flight Command (1940)

"Although couched in a sensitive love story, the film likely also
contributed to turning the tide of public opinion toward a willingness to
fight the rise of fascism in Europe. Ironically, Flight Command, done in the
more "realistic" patriotic action style that would dominate American screens
for the next several years, marked the decline in his career. Such
finely-wrought, tender romances as Seventh Heaven (1927), which earned him
the first Best Director Award ever given by the Academy, A Farewell to Arms
(1932), and Desire (1936), a wry romantic comedy about jewel thieves Gary
Cooper and Marlene Dietrich, had fallen out of favor by 1940, and Borzage's
work has become largely neglected.

Red Skelton appears in a small role in Flight Command, his third movie. He
would shortly become one of MGM's top comic stars of the decade."



Red Skelton plays less of a clown and more of a gay sailor - it's a hoot.
Also, movie contained much insensitive 'fat' humor that I found particularly
offensive. <g>

Great site with photos and history.
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Grumman3.html
Navy bi-planes in the movie ...F3F-2?


Best site of all
http://www.coastcomp.com/av/fltline2/avmovie.htm
MILITARY AVIATION MOVIE LIST.

Flight Command
1940 *
USN- Robert Taylor (ex USAAF Flight Instructor) Pilots develops blind-flying
equipment in their spare time. VF-6, VMF-2 Grumman F3F-2's at NAS North
Island, also shot on ENTERPRISE. (Also VS-6 on Curtiss SBC Helldivers, VB-6
Northrop BT-1, VT-6 Douglas TBD-1's supposedly in there somewhere. Cut from
the current print?).

Sikorsky PBS-1 Flying Boat, VF-6 SBC-4 target tug, N.A. SNJ's in background
(?) Seversky SEV-S2 and Ryan ST footage from "Test Pilot" One of the USMC
pilots in the air scenes was one Lt. Greg (Pappy) Boyington.

Paul Mantz flew Orion, Boeing 100, and Lockheed Orion camera planes.


Flight Commander (This was originally "Dawn Patrol". It was retitled after
the second version came out in 1938)
1930 v
WWI- Douglas Fairbanks; WWI epic. Nieuport 28's., Travel Airs ("Nieuports"),
Fokker D.VII's, 2 Pfalz D.XII's, Standard J-1. Directed by Howard Hawks (WWI
pilot).


I'm done. Thanks for reading.


Montblack

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> They can see a LONG way off! Couple the onboard
> sensors with airborne C&C AWACs and you are going to have a very high
> probability of knowing friend from foe.
>

Ok. So WHY haven't they been used in earnest? In all likely situations,
shorter-distance weapons were used. Prime example is the Lybian
shoot-down.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[john smith]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> John,
>
> > They can see a LONG way off! Couple the onboard
> > sensors with airborne C&C AWACs and you are going to have a very high
> > probability of knowing friend from foe.

> Ok. So WHY haven't they been used in earnest? In all likely situations,
> shorter-distance weapons were used. Prime example is the Lybian
> shoot-down.

Which Libyan engagement?

[W P Dixon]

Maybe this one,
Jan 4 1989 two F-14 from squadron VF-32 engaged Libyan MIG-23 Floggers
over the Gulf of Sidra. One kill was with a AIM-7 Sparrow, the other an
AIM-9 Sidewinder. I think the F-14's were flying from the USS John F
Kennedy?

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Thomas Borchert > wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> > They can see a LONG way off! Couple the onboard
>> > sensors with airborne C&C AWACs and you are going to have a very high
>> > probability of knowing friend from foe.
>
>> Ok. So WHY haven't they been used in earnest? In all likely situations,
>> shorter-distance weapons were used. Prime example is the Lybian
>> shoot-down.
>
> Which Libyan engagement?

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> Ok. So WHY haven't they been used in earnest?

probably because the ROE haven't allow for it or one wasn't needed, yet.

> In all likely situations,
> shorter-distance weapons were used. Prime example is the Lybian
> shoot-down.

"likely situations" aren't the only consideration in determining threats
and military weapon systems capabilities to meet those threats.

In any case, the threat assessement(s) used as the basis for the
long-range air-to-air missile requirements are almost certainly classified
and not something that can be discussed in a public forum.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[sfb]

Are you serious? Using the Phoenix against Soviet Bears attacking the
fleet in the Atlantic escorting conveys to Europe is really old news. It
was to be the classic situation where everybody is a bad guy so they
could launch at long ranges.

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
news:ihatessppaamm-
>
> "likely situations" aren't the only consideration in determining
> threats
> and military weapon systems capabilities to meet those threats.
>
> In any case, the threat assessement(s) used as the basis for the
> long-range air-to-air missile requirements are almost certainly
> classified
> and not something that can be discussed in a public forum.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> no one likes an educated mule
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm done. Thanks for reading.

Fascinating stuff.

The scary part is that you actually *know* all this film history!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Fascinating stuff.
>
> The scary part is that you actually *know* all this film history!


I know where to stumble over the info. :-)


Montblack

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

> From: Bob Noel >
> > Ok. So WHY haven't they been used in earnest?
>
> probably because the ROE haven't allow for it or one wasn't needed, yet.

Uh, that's pretty much what I said, isn't it?

> > "likely situations" aren't the only consideration in determining threats
> and military weapon systems capabilities to meet those threats.

No? Then why are they gone from the inventory?

>
> In any case, the threat assessement(s) used as the basis for the
> long-range air-to-air missile requirements are almost certainly classified
> and not something that can be discussed in a public forum.

You gotta be kidding. "If only I could tell you what I really know"? I know
many here really liked that kind of approach to the WMDs in Iraq, but please
look where we have come since then.

sfb has it right: The scenario which made the Phoenix nice to have is gone.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[vincent p. norris]

>Say what you want about the movie, but the Tomcat in "Top Gun" did more for
>naval aviation than any other single thing.

That's a pretty extreme statement, Jay. What do you mean by "more"?
And since you didn't include "IMHO," what evidence can you offer?

Some folks, perhaps older than you, might say the Battle of Midway
(the battle, in 1942, not the movie) did more. Or perhaps even the
movie, error-ridden as it was. Or the movie "The Fighting Lady,"
which you may never have seen or even heard of. It was made of actual
combat footage. Or the Blue Angels. Or Al Williams.

There was naval aviation, keep in mind, long, long, long, before that
silly Top Gun movie. Heck, some historians might say Glenn Curtiss did
more.

vince norris



>
>The navy got their money's worth, times ten, from the F-14.

[Peter R.]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote:

> That's a pretty extreme statement, Jay. What do you mean by "more"?
> And since you didn't include "IMHO," what evidence can you offer?

Anecdotal, no doubt, but from 1988 through 1990 I tried to get into the Air
Force, the Navy, and a local Air National Guard base as a pilot. In every
case I was told by the recruiters that competition was never more fierce
than this period, thanks to "that movie, 'Top Gun.'"

Needless to say, I was not accepted. I didn't have the political
connections needed for Officer Candidate School.

--
Peter


















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[sfb]

If you really think it takes political pull to get into Officer
Candidate School, they probably dumped your butt on attitude alone.

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> "vincent p. norris" > wrote:
>
>> That's a pretty extreme statement, Jay. What do you mean by "more"?
>> And since you didn't include "IMHO," what evidence can you offer?
>
> Anecdotal, no doubt, but from 1988 through 1990 I tried to get into
> the Air
> Force, the Navy, and a local Air National Guard base as a pilot. In
> every
> case I was told by the recruiters that competition was never more
> fierce
> than this period, thanks to "that movie, 'Top Gun.'"
>
> Needless to say, I was not accepted. I didn't have the political
> connections needed for Officer Candidate School.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
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> 120,000+ Newsgroups
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> =----

[Peter R.]

sfb > wrote:

> If you really think it takes political pull to get into Officer
> Candidate School, they probably dumped your butt on attitude alone.

That was what I was told by one of the recruiters. I had absolutely no
attitude back then.

--
Peter


















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[Dan Luke]

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

> There was naval aviation, keep in mind, long, long, long, before that
> silly Top Gun movie.

Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[gregg]

Dan Luke wrote:


> Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.
>

Not the only one by a long shot. Silly from start to finish although it's
always nice to see the iron flying.


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Jay Honeck]

> > There was naval aviation, keep in mind, long, long, long, before that
> > silly Top Gun movie.
>
> Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.

It was aimed squarely at the angst-consumed teen market -- which it hit
squarely.

The movie has its flaws, but it still has the best (and most) modern
flying sequences I've ever seen in a movie.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[vincent p. norris]

>Anecdotal, no doubt, but from 1988 through 1990 I tried to get into the Air
>Force, the Navy, and a local Air National Guard base as a pilot. In every
>case I was told by the recruiters that competition was never more fierce
>than this period, thanks to "that movie, 'Top Gun.'"

Your logic is a bit puzzling. If "Top Gun" directed all the eager
young kids toward Naval Aviation, the Air Force and ANG would have
been hurting, and therefore delighted to take you, if you were
qualified.

vince norris

[Jay Honeck]

> However, teen-age kids might have had a different opinion of it; what
> the heck do they know? It might have increased enlistments, if that's
> all Jay meant by "did more."

Precisely!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[vincent p. norris]

>Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.

I can't think of any of my aviator friends, Naval or otherwise, who
doesn't consider it a silly movie.

However, teen-age kids might have had a different opinion of it; what
the heck do they know? It might have increased enlistments, if that's
all Jay meant by "did more."

vince norris

[Peter R.]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote:

> If "Top Gun" directed all the eager
> young kids toward Naval Aviation, the Air Force and ANG would have
> been hurting, and therefore delighted to take you, if you were
> qualified.

"All the eager young kids" who wanted to fly fighters after seeing the
movie were apparently smart enough to realize that the Navy was not the
only branch of the armed services offering fighter jet training.

If you are looking for some documented proof that the movie ignited an
armed forces aviation craze, you won't get it from me. All I am relaying
in this thread is what the recruiters told me at that time. I was told
that had I applied right after high school (1982), there was a shortage of
pilots and the armed services were snapping up most who came their way.

However, from about 1987 and onward (the period in which I applied in
earnest), the armed services had a glut of applicants and the hiring
criteria had been raised. These recruiters believed it was the success of
"Top Gun" that brought them so many qualified candidates. Perhaps they
were simply feeding me a line of recruiter BS? Perhaps.

And as far as me being qualified, it was obvious that I wasn't, although I
was never told why. Vision, health, and grades were all good at the time.

--
Peter


















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[Newps]

vincent p. norris wrote:

>>Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.
>
>
> I can't think of any of my aviator friends, Naval or otherwise, who
> doesn't consider it a silly movie.

All movies are silly to some extent, but did the movie do what it set
out to do. Yep, in spades. A 2 hour advertisement for the Navy.
Absolutely the best photography and sound up to that point, I would love
to see that movie done in Dolby.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Newps >
wrote:

> All movies are silly to some extent, but did the movie do what it set
> out to do. Yep, in spades. A 2 hour advertisement for the Navy.
> Absolutely the best photography and sound up to that point, I would love
> to see that movie done in Dolby.

The DVD is available in Dolby. Complete with commentary saying
everyone knows it was a silly movie.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[LWG]

Silly, yes, but the first aviation movie to get you from the opening scene
with great music and ultra-realistic simulated and real shots. I gotta
admit I've seen it about 50 times, and I could watch it again (as long as I
could fast forward through the dumb stuff). Everything before that movie
was in the "Revell model flying past the cotton balls on fishing line"
category, IMO.

Les

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "vincent p. norris" wrote:
>
>> There was naval aviation, keep in mind, long, long, long, before that
>> silly Top Gun movie.
>
> Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.
>
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
>

[cjcampbell]

You really have to cut this out, Jay. It is starting to make me feel
really old. Now, where did I put my walker?

[vincent p. norris]

>If you are looking for some documented proof that the movie ignited an
>armed forces aviation craze, you won't get it from me.

No, I don't care; I was just responding to a post on the topic.

Timing makes a difference in your chance of getting flight training.
The Air Force shut down Air Cadet recruiting near the end of WW II,
just two weeks before my 17th birthday. I was bitterly disappointed.

A couple years later, the Marine Corps offered a chance to go to
flight training and I grabbed it. Lucky break, actually; I learned to
land on a carrier, which I wouldn't have in the Air Force.

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

>All movies are silly to some extent, but did the movie do what it set
>out to do. Yep, in spades. A 2 hour advertisement for the Navy.

Are you saying the Navy paid to have that movie made?

IMHO, what "the movie set out to do" was to make a huge pile of money
for the producer, nothing else. It was purely a business enterprise.

I'm willing to learn otherwise.

vince norris.

[W P Dixon]

SEMPER FI Vincent! What did you get to fly in the beloved Marine Corps?

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >If you are looking for some documented proof that the movie ignited an
>>armed forces aviation craze, you won't get it from me.
>
> No, I don't care; I was just responding to a post on the topic.
>
> Timing makes a difference in your chance of getting flight training.
> The Air Force shut down Air Cadet recruiting near the end of WW II,
> just two weeks before my 17th birthday. I was bitterly disappointed.
>
> A couple years later, the Marine Corps offered a chance to go to
> flight training and I grabbed it. Lucky break, actually; I learned to
> land on a carrier, which I wouldn't have in the Air Force.
>
> vince norris

[cjcampbell]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "vincent p. norris" wrote:
>
> > There was naval aviation, keep in mind, long, long, long, before that
> > silly Top Gun movie.
>
> Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.
>

Hey. You can be *my* wing man any time. :-)

[Peter R.]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote:

> Timing makes a difference in your chance of getting flight training.

That was the lesson I learned.

> The Air Force shut down Air Cadet recruiting near the end of WW II,
> just two weeks before my 17th birthday. I was bitterly disappointed.
>
> A couple years later, the Marine Corps offered a chance to go to
> flight training and I grabbed it. Lucky break, actually; I learned to
> land on a carrier, which I wouldn't have in the Air Force.

Thanks for sharing. You were fortunate. :)


--
Peter
























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[vincent p. norris]

>SEMPER FI Vincent! What did you get to fly in the beloved Marine Corps?

Well, timing worked against me on that score!

I had learned to fly in a J-3 as soon as GA opened up after VJ Day.
My instructor was a newly discharged Marine F7F pilot. He raved about
that airplane. So after I finished Basic and went to Advanced
Training, I requested multi-engine traaining so I'd have a shot at
the F7F.

Unfortunately, when I arrived at Cherry Point with a shiny pair of
gold wings, after two years of college and a year and a half of flight
training, I was too late for F7Fs. "We're phasing them out," I was
told, "But we sure need transport pilots!"

So I spent most of my time flying R5C-1s and then R4Q-2s. You probably
know them as the C-46 and th C-119. Not very exciting duty, but there
were some good things about it. I got a lot of IFR time and
cross-countries to interesting places.

I did spend a year flying OE-1s (Cessna L-19 Birddogs) as a FAC with
the 5th Marines at LeJeune and Vieques. That was fun.

vince norris

[Wizard of Draws]

On 9/13/05 1:19 AM, in article
om, "cjcampbell"
> wrote:

>
> Dan Luke wrote:
>> "vincent p. norris" wrote:
>>
>>> There was naval aviation, keep in mind, long, long, long, before that
>>> silly Top Gun movie.
>>
>> Glad to see I'm not the only pilot who thinks Top Gun is silly.
>>
>
> Hey. You can be *my* wing man any time. :-)
>

You should say it twice, like everything else the pilots in that stupid
flick say.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[W P Dixon]

Cool!
The only flying time I got was as a door gunner on a UH-1N , I did get to
fly front seat in a Cobra once though. That needless to say was an absolute
blast! ;) I was a 6144 (Aviation Structures Mech) UH-1N, AH-1J, AH-1T. Got
some experience on CH-46 and CH-53's on a government funded pleasure cruise
(NOT!) ;) AH-1W were just coming in when I was getting out.
Training school was pretty cool, we had F-4, A-6 , A-7 , and A-4D's
there. I hated drawing the helo duty at first but really ended up enjoying
the whirlybirds. Never had any regrets on joining, my son will this summer
it appears. Has it set in his mind to be a grunt and try as I may I can't
talk him out of it! ;) Keep trying to tell him there is not much call for a
sniper in the civilian world.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >SEMPER FI Vincent! What did you get to fly in the beloved Marine Corps?
>
> Well, timing worked against me on that score!
>
> I had learned to fly in a J-3 as soon as GA opened up after VJ Day.
> My instructor was a newly discharged Marine F7F pilot. He raved about
> that airplane. So after I finished Basic and went to Advanced
> Training, I requested multi-engine traaining so I'd have a shot at
> the F7F.
>
> Unfortunately, when I arrived at Cherry Point with a shiny pair of
> gold wings, after two years of college and a year and a half of flight
> training, I was too late for F7Fs. "We're phasing them out," I was
> told, "But we sure need transport pilots!"
>
> So I spent most of my time flying R5C-1s and then R4Q-2s. You probably
> know them as the C-46 and th C-119. Not very exciting duty, but there
> were some good things about it. I got a lot of IFR time and
> cross-countries to interesting places.
>
> I did spend a year flying OE-1s (Cessna L-19 Birddogs) as a FAC with
> the 5th Marines at LeJeune and Vieques. That was fun.
>
> vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

>Got some experience on CH-46.....

Big difference between the C-46 and the CH -46!

> Never had any regrets on joining...

I never even regretted Parris Island--after it was over! I've always
figured if I could survive 16 weeks at PI in the summer, I can survive
anything.

> Keep trying to tell him there is not much call for a
>sniper in the civilian world.

Don't all police forces of any size have SWAT teams that include
snipers? A couple of years in the Corps should be great background
for a police career.

vince norris

[W P Dixon]

Vince,
He keeps saying the cop thing, I keep shaking my head! His mom tried the
cop thing when she got out (we got divorced over it)....let's just say I
expect better behavior and "always acting like a gentleman" from my son.
He's to smart of a kid to get killed because of 2 dopeheads in a domestic
dispute. I tell him all the time, he has to do what makes him happy. I sure
don't want him to be a cop, heck we have a family reputation to maintain!
His Mom was only a Dixon by marriage, so she doesn't count against us! ;)
HAHA]
If he insists on being a grunt, he may as well be a career Marine. But I
think alot of the reason he wants to join is to get away from his Mom. (
Can't blame him there! ;)) He is a smart kid and could go to probably any
college around, hate to see him waste college and/or a marine career to be a
COP. But he must make the decision. Goodness knows I chose to be a Marine
and not go to college, I never regretted the choice I made, but my mom was
not happy with it! ;)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

>> Keep trying to tell him there is not much call for a
>>sniper in the civilian world.
>
> Don't all police forces of any size have SWAT teams that include
> snipers? A couple of years in the Corps should be great background
> for a police career.
>
> vince norris

[W P Dixon]

Almost forgot Vince,
I went to PI during the month of August, so you have my undying respect! I
know your pain so to speak ;) Was OCS at PI then? From as far back as I
remember OCS was in Quantico, my last set of orders was to be a DI at OCS ,
Quantico, VA. ( They were trying everything to get me to re enlist! HAHA)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Vince,
> He keeps saying the cop thing, I keep shaking my head! His mom tried
> the cop thing when she got out (we got divorced over it)....let's just say
> I expect better behavior and "always acting like a gentleman" from my son.
> He's to smart of a kid to get killed because of 2 dopeheads in a domestic
> dispute. I tell him all the time, he has to do what makes him happy. I
> sure don't want him to be a cop, heck we have a family reputation to
> maintain! His Mom was only a Dixon by marriage, so she doesn't count
> against us! ;) HAHA]
> If he insists on being a grunt, he may as well be a career Marine. But
> I think alot of the reason he wants to join is to get away from his Mom.
> ( Can't blame him there! ;)) He is a smart kid and could go to probably
> any college around, hate to see him waste college and/or a marine career
> to be a COP. But he must make the decision. Goodness knows I chose to be a
> Marine and not go to college, I never regretted the choice I made, but my
> mom was not happy with it! ;)
>
> Patrick
> student SP
> aircraft structural mech
>
>>> Keep trying to tell him there is not much call for a
>>>sniper in the civilian world.
>>
>> Don't all police forces of any size have SWAT teams that include
>> snipers? A couple of years in the Corps should be great background
>> for a police career.
>>
>> vince norris
>

[W P Dixon]

Mind if I ask what year this was in? Sounds like a very interesting story.
Ya know , seems officers who served as enlisted first were better officers
and leaders, and sure had the respect of their troops more. Maybe all
officers should have to start as a private?

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
>> I went to PI during the month of August, so you have my undying respect!
>
> Thanks.I
>
>> Was OCS at PI then?
>
> No, I didn't go to OCS. I enlisted and went through regular boot
> camp. About six months later I took a test to qualify for flight
> training, and passed. Then I was discharged, sworn in as a Midshipsman
> V-5, USNR, and sent to college for two years, then to flight training.
>
> I must have been in about the last V-5 "class" because when I got to
> Pensacola, there were guys already there called "Navcads" who, like
> me, had been enlisted Marines (and Sailors) but who were sent
> directly to flight training without being given two years of college
> first.
>
> vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

>Mind if I ask what year this was in?

I arrived at PI in June, 1946. Sent to college, fall '47.
Arrived at Pensacola June 1949.

>Sounds like a very interesting story.

It was a pretty standard story in those years, I think. Happened to
lots of guys.

>Ya know , seems officers who served as enlisted first were better officers
>and leaders, and sure had the respect of their troops more. Maybe all
>officers should have to start as a private?

I don't know. I knew some very fine officers, superiors to me who, so
far as I know, had not been enlisted. Probably depends on the
individual officer's character.

vince norris

[W P Dixon]

You have a great point there! Individuals character has more to do with it
than anything else. We had some great officers, and we had some terrible
ones too! Most fit there in the middle somewhere.
I never will forget when my old marine room mate called from Dubai (I
had been off active duty for awhile and was in CA) to tell me Capt Steve
Leslie had been shot down in the Persian Gulf in a raid on Iranian oil
platforms. Capt Leslie was my favorite officer , even considered him a
friend as well as an officer. A good Cobra pilot and all the enlisted guys
thought the world of him.
I cried that day, and when my wife got home and I told her she did too.
Just thought alot of him, and I still have my last Marine ID card that he
signed . He was never an enlisted man, but he sure fit in with all of
us...just had the character thing. It was a big lose for the squadron, and
one that really had a personal effect on myself and my family.
Blue Skies Capt. Leslie..you are not forgotten.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> I don't know. I knew some very fine officers, superiors to me who, so
> far as I know, had not been enlisted. Probably depends on the
> individual officer's character.
>
> vince norris