Landing Critique

[Marco Leon]

See video of a hard(ish) landing at:
http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=4137

Did this guy land a bit short of the runway or was his glidepath a bit
too shallow? Something else? It's hard to tell from the video but maybe
some PA-32 drivers can give some insight. Or maybe someone fluent in
French can translate what was said as a comment.

Marco Leon

[Michelle P]

They are french what do they know about airplanes? ;-)
Actually it looks like they flared to high.
Michelle

Marco Leon wrote:

>See video of a hard(ish) landing at:
>http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=4137
>
>Did this guy land a bit short of the runway or was his glidepath a bit
>too shallow? Something else? It's hard to tell from the video but maybe
>some PA-32 drivers can give some insight. Or maybe someone fluent in
>French can translate what was said as a comment.
>
>Marco Leon
>
>
>

[Guy Elden Jr]

To my eye, it looked like they were too low for at least the last 1/2
mile of the approach. They kept the power in until a few seconds before
they stalled, and good grief... the stall horn was going off _right_ as
they were crossing the tip of the runway.

I dunno... I always like to begin the flare _after_ I've crossed the
threshold, not over a highway. :)

--
Guy

[Icebound]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> See video of a hard(ish) landing at:
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=4137
>
> Did this guy land a bit short of the runway or was his glidepath a bit
> too shallow? Something else? It's hard to tell from the video but maybe
> some PA-32 drivers can give some insight. Or maybe someone fluent in
> French can translate what was said as a comment.
>

I've seen that landing early in my training.

I would get into a dumb approach trim-setup where the airspeed keeps
bleeding off instead of staying steady. At the threshold, the airspeed is
down to stall...pulling back makes the horn go louder, but it doesn't really
flare, just sort of plops onto the runway on all three.

[Jay Honeck]

> Did this guy land a bit short of the runway or was his glidepath a bit
> too shallow? Something else?

He got a bit too slow, and couldn't arrest his sink rate. A Cherokee will
come down like a load of sand if you get slow on final.

Video also exaggerates the impact of any landing, in my experience.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

my 0.02 worth... I di dnot see a flare in the true sense. I did not
see (prop rotation) or hear any power adjustments prior to stall
warning.. stall warning horn does not "get louder" it either sounds or
it doesn't. This pilot was definitely below glide slop at least a half
mile out. The internal "stupid alert" should have sounded and power
applied shortly after base to final. I tried to watch a spot on the
ground with reference to windscreen but it was difficult as there was
too much movement, but you could see the "numbers" slowly going up the
screen.
Also noticed a "lot" of internal pilot copilot movement after entering
the pattern and a piece of paper flying by the pilot shortly after
downwind to base. At least they seemed very jocular about the
landing. Isn't it great to be a critic? One thumb down

[Stefan]

Marco Leon wrote:

> Or maybe someone fluent in
> French can translate what was said as a comment.

Nothing noteworthy.

Right seat: Ah disdonc! (General remark with no particular meaning.
Could be translated with "well...!" or something like that.)
Left seat: "That's a landing!"
and later: "(not understandable)... 400 meters!" (Probably: I needed
only 400 meters to come to a stop.)

It seems to me that it's a student with the instructor.

BTW: They landed at Logues, 10 miles east of Paris. Here's the VAC:
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/METROPOLE/AIP/VAC/L/VAC%20AD%202.LFPL.pdf

Note that the circuit (pattern) flight path is mandatory for noise
abatement reasons, as is the case in most European airfields. And yes,
the runway is 08, with a leading zero.

Stefan

[john smith]

Started out looking high, which is good because this airplane can come
down quickly.
I was looking at the panel for the ASI, didn't see it but noted that the
VSI was 900 fpm.
He definitely go too low as is evident by the flattening out of the
sight picture of the runway prior to crossing the road.
I couldn't tell when or how much flaps were applied, but from the rate
of descent, I would guess all of them at the beginning of the approach.

[vincent p. norris]

>They are french what do they know about airplanes? ;-)

Ummm, I guess you haven't done a lot of reading about aviation
history.

Dintcha ever wonder why so many aviation terms (fuselage, empennage,
aileron, chandelle, etc.) are French? ((:-))

vince norris

[Icebound]

> wrote in message
oups.com...


> stall warning horn does not "get louder" it either sounds or
> it doesn't.

Did you mean that generically for all aircraft? ... or in this particular
case only?

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:51:54 -0400, "Icebound"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
>> stall warning horn does not "get louder" it either sounds or
>> it doesn't.
>
>Did you mean that generically for all aircraft? ... or in this particular
>case only?

Perhaps it's to do with the way the horn is activated. I seem to
remember the 172's horn getting louder the closer to stall you got
(pneumatically activated), but don't recall that phenomenon with the
182's horn (electric switch)?

[Icebound]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:51:54 -0400, "Icebound"
> > wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>>
>>> stall warning horn does not "get louder" it either sounds or
>>> it doesn't.
>>
>>Did you mean that generically for all aircraft? ... or in this particular
>>case only?
>
> Perhaps it's to do with the way the horn is activated. I seem to
> remember the 172's horn getting louder the closer to stall you got
> (pneumatically activated), but don't recall that phenomenon with the
> 182's horn (electric switch)?

Well, the 172's horn seems to be basically the same principle as blowing
across the mouth of an open beer bottle. If you blow lightly, it makes a
gentle hum and if you blow hard, it gets loud.

I don't know how other stall horns were designed, but it was my impression
that a stall horn is supposed to be designed to go off a little before the
true stall.

For the 172, this means that at a certain AOA, there is *some* air going by
across the opening, producing *some* sound, while you still fly not fully
stalled. It is not until a full stall that the maximum amount of air is
flowing across the opening, producing the loudest sound. Now the 172 has a
pretty thick leading edge, which may contribute to the way this seems to
work.


Since that is all that I am familiar with....

....does that mean that for most other aircraft, I would have to be aware
that the stall horn will go off suddenly and completely?

[Blueskies]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message ups.com...
> See video of a hard(ish) landing at:
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=4137
>
> Did this guy land a bit short of the runway or was his glidepath a bit
> too shallow? Something else? It's hard to tell from the video but maybe
> some PA-32 drivers can give some insight. Or maybe someone fluent in
> French can translate what was said as a comment.
>
> Marco Leon
>

This is the classic got a video camera in the back seat gotta make a good landing blooper.

All of your really good landings are not going to be seen by anyone, but all of your bad ones will be...

Anyway, this approach was pretty sloppy from way out. The nose was all over the place; I was thinking they were playing
against a gusty wind but they settled down late in the approach...

[Bob Moore]

"Icebound" > wrote

> Well, the 172's horn seems to be basically the same principle as
> blowing across the mouth of an open beer bottle.

Not all C-172s...some have the electric vane. The one that I fly does.

> I don't know how other stall horns were designed, but it was my
> impression that a stall horn is supposed to be designed to go off a
> little before the true stall.

(c) During the stall tests required by §23.201(b) and §23.203(a)(1), the
stall warning must begin at a speed exceeding the stalling speed by a
margin of not less than 5 knots and must continue until the stall occurs.


> ...does that mean that for most other aircraft, I would have to be
> aware that the stall horn will go off suddenly and completely?

Yes, but at least 5 knots above the actual stall per Part 23.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[Jon Kraus]

Looks like a landing I made last week. I was lazy and didn't fly a
pattern sice no one was around and my flight path was taking me directly
on the final approach course. I always seem to misjudge height from a
long way out and got flat coming in over the numbers. Then it is just a
matter of slowing up and pulling back into a pseudo-flare which really
results in a 3-point landing. I think that the video makes it look
worse than it probably was although he did get a bounce out of it.

Since it appears that he will be able to use the airplane again I would
call it a good landing. :-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ


Marco Leon wrote:
> See video of a hard(ish) landing at:
> http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=4137
>
> Did this guy land a bit short of the runway or was his glidepath a bit
> too shallow? Something else? It's hard to tell from the video but maybe
> some PA-32 drivers can give some insight. Or maybe someone fluent in
> French can translate what was said as a comment.
>
> Marco Leon
>

[N93332]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Since it appears that he will be able to use the airplane again I would
> call it a good landing. :-)

(The old saying) A 'good' landing is one you can walk away from, a 'great'
landing is one that you can reuse the plane...

So far, all my landings have been 'great'! ;-)

-Greg B.