Arrest King Daley!

[Jay Honeck]

This from EAA:

FAA Determines Meigs Closure Illegal, Imposes Maximum Fine
Nearly 2 1/2 years after the fact, the FAA has determined that Mayor Richard
Daley violated federal law when he ordered bulldozers to carve large "X's"
into the runway at Chicago's lakefront jewel, Merrill C. Meigs Field, after
midnight March 30, 2003. As a result, the FAA has levied a $33,000 fine, the
maximum allowed by law, on the city. "This vindicates what we've said all
along," said Steve Whitney, president of the Friends of Meigs Field. "Mayor
Daley's midnight massacre of Meigs was illegal. Good government doesn't
happen in the secret of night." The group calls on Daley himself to pay the
fine. "The Mayor of Chicago knew when he did this that it was illegal and
would incur fines," said Whitney. "Taxpayers should be outraged if they are
made to pay for such blatant abuse of power." The FAA is also investigating
whether the city improperly used over $2.8 million in restricted federal
aviation funds designated for airport improvement. According to documents
filed by the City of Chicago in December, $2,887,462 in airport funds was
spent to demolish Meigs and make way for a nature park. If found in
violation, the city may incur additional fines of $8 million or more. For
more information, visit www.friendsofmeigs.org.

Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where he
belongs.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom]

When are you guys gonna realize that the public doesn't care about Meigs
field and that most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley?

It's a waste of time to argue about Meigs. It (and all the other airports
taken down by local governments) are gone and will never be back.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
> This from EAA:
>
> FAA Determines Meigs Closure Illegal, Imposes Maximum Fine
> Nearly 2 1/2 years after the fact, the FAA has determined that Mayor
> Richard Daley violated federal law when he ordered bulldozers to carve
> large "X's" into the runway at Chicago's lakefront jewel, Merrill C. Meigs
> Field, after midnight March 30, 2003. As a result, the FAA has levied a
> $33,000 fine, the maximum allowed by law, on the city. "This vindicates
> what we've said all along," said Steve Whitney, president of the Friends
> of Meigs Field. "Mayor Daley's midnight massacre of Meigs was illegal.
> Good government doesn't happen in the secret of night." The group calls on
> Daley himself to pay the fine. "The Mayor of Chicago knew when he did this
> that it was illegal and would incur fines," said Whitney. "Taxpayers
> should be outraged if they are made to pay for such blatant abuse of
> power." The FAA is also investigating whether the city improperly used
> over $2.8 million in restricted federal aviation funds designated for
> airport improvement. According to documents filed by the City of Chicago
> in December, $2,887,462 in airport funds was spent to demolish Meigs and
> make way for a nature park. If found in violation, the city may incur
> additional fines of $8 million or more. For more information, visit
> www.friendsofmeigs.org.
>
> Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where he
> belongs.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Dave S]

Tom wrote:
most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley

The live ones? or the dead ones?

Dave

[Montblack]

("Tom" wrote)
> When are you guys gonna realize that the public doesn't care about Meigs
> field and that most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley?
>
> It's a waste of time to argue about Meigs. It (and all the other airports
> taken down by local governments) are gone and will never be back.


At Oshkosh this year Honda unveiled its new HondaJet - which is a Honda
airframe with twin Honda engines. When it flew past it sounded like two hair
driers running on medium. The HondaJet was incredible ...and quiet.

According to the Honda/GE engine guys in the tent, their turbines meets
Stage4 noise requirements right now - there is no Stage5.

[Insert dramatic line] ...I just hope it's not too late.


Montblack

[Dave Stadt]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
> Tom wrote:
> most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley
>
> The live ones? or the dead ones?
>
> Dave


Both, he won his last re-election by the widest margin ever.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>> most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley
>>
>> The live ones? or the dead ones?
>>
>> Dave
>
>
> Both, he won his last re-election by the widest margin ever.


If the live ones really like him that much, the taxpayers of Chicago ought to
anty up the money. They deserve no less.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Tom Six]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
> This from EAA:
....
>
> Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where he
> belongs.

Send him to New Orleans.

[Jim Burns]

I can hardly wait until Daley starts whining about FEMA and the Federal
Government not giving Chicago money to develop a plan in case Chicago
floods.
Jim

"Tom Six" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
> > This from EAA:
> ...
> >
> > Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where he
> > belongs.
>
> Send him to New Orleans.
>
>
>

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Tom Six" > wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
> > This from EAA:
> ...
> >
> > Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where he
> > belongs.
>
> Send him to New Orleans.


Send him to Leavenworth on RICO charges and put him in a cell with Mongo!

[Margy]

Tom wrote:
> When are you guys gonna realize that the public doesn't care about Meigs
> field and that most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley?
>
> It's a waste of time to argue about Meigs. It (and all the other airports
> taken down by local governments) are gone and will never be back.
>
Maybe if the good citizens of Chicago get an 8 million dollar fine they
have to pay with their tax money they will see the light and possibly
other politicians will pay attention when they try to pull illegal
actions against airports. I think the FAA should go after as much as
they can and make sure everyone knows about it.

Margy

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 13:15:56 -0400, Margy > wrote in
>::

>Maybe if the good citizens of Chicago get an 8 million dollar fine they
>have to pay with their tax money they will see the light and possibly
>other politicians will pay attention when they try to pull illegal
>actions against airports. I think the FAA should go after as much as
>they can and make sure everyone knows about it.


We can hope, but I'll bet the FAA caves in rather than facing the
dauntless task of prosecuting the Chicago mayor for fraudulent
misdirection of AIP funds. It will take a lot of urging and oversight
by the aviation community and advocacy groups like AOPA to spur the
FAA to action, not to mention political power, IMO.

[Dave Stadt]

"Margy" > wrote in message
...
> Tom wrote:
> > When are you guys gonna realize that the public doesn't care about Meigs
> > field and that most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley?
> >
> > It's a waste of time to argue about Meigs. It (and all the other
airports
> > taken down by local governments) are gone and will never be back.
> >
> Maybe if the good citizens of Chicago get an 8 million dollar fine they
> have to pay with their tax money they will see the light and possibly
> other politicians will pay attention when they try to pull illegal
> actions against airports. I think the FAA should go after as much as
> they can and make sure everyone knows about it.
>
> Margy

8 million is petty cash to the city. No one will even notice. Dickey's
administration is under a lot scrutiny lately due to illegal practices in
numerous departments. A lot of his generals have resigned and quite a few
are wards of the federal government. Meigs is so far down in the noise
level it is invisible.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:

JH> Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin
JH> -- where he belongs.

If wishes were dollars, we'd be millionaires. Simply ain't gonna
happen. Move on.

[Darkwing \(Badass\)]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
> Tom wrote:
> most of the people in Chicago like and vote for Daley
>
> The live ones? or the dead ones?
>
> Dave
>

The Cook County ones.

----------------------------------------
DW

[Darkwing \(Badass\)]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Tom Six" > wrote:
>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
>> > This from EAA:
>> ...
>> >
>> > Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where
>> > he
>> > belongs.
>>
>> Send him to New Orleans.
>
>
> Send him to Leavenworth on RICO charges and put him in a cell with Mongo!


That should have happend years ago. His ties with the mob are very
documented.

----------------------------------------------------
DW

[Tom S.]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>I can hardly wait until Daley starts whining about FEMA and the Federal
> Government not giving Chicago money to develop a plan in case Chicago
> floods.
> Jim

BIrds of a feather, evidently.

"By 1998, Louisiana’s state government had a $2 billion construction budget,
but less than one-tenth of one percent, or $1.98 million, was dedicated to
New Orleans levee improvements. By contrast, $22 million was spent that year
to renovate a home for the Louisiana Supreme Court.

Where did all the money go? Again, the Times-Picayune says much of the money
went not to flood control, but to lawmakers’ pet projects, from a $750
million for a new canal lock to a $2.5 million Mardi Gras fountain project
that ran $600,000 over budget."

Investors Business Daily - Issues & Insights
Mary, Mary, Quite (To The) Contrary 9/9/05

>
> "Tom Six" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
>> > This from EAA:
>> ...
>> >
>> > Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where
>> > he
>> > belongs.
>>
>> Send him to New Orleans.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Tom S.]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Tom Six" > wrote:
>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:zu6Ue.317567$x96.281487@attbi_s72...
>> > This from EAA:
>> ...
>> >
>> > Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where
>> > he
>> > belongs.
>>
>> Send him to New Orleans.
>
>
> Send him to Leavenworth on RICO charges and put him in a cell with Mongo!

Where you going to get an objective jury anywhere near Chicago? :>(

[George Patterson]

Tom S. wrote:
>
> "By 1998, Louisiana’s state government had a $2 billion construction budget,
> but less than one-tenth of one percent, or $1.98 million, was dedicated to
> New Orleans levee improvements. By contrast, $22 million was spent that year
> to renovate a home for the Louisiana Supreme Court.

Again. The levees are owned by the Federal government, not the State.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jay Honeck]

> Again. The levees are owned by the Federal government, not the State.

Again, who cares? It was up to the State of Louisiana to take care of New
Orleans. More importantly, it was up to New Orleans to take care of New
Orleans. Whether that meant paying for the improvements themselves, or
applying political pressure to the Army Corps of Engineers, Congress, or
Santa Claus, it should have been done BY THEM. I'm really, REALLY tired of
New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except at
their own chests.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I'm really, REALLY tired of
> New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except at
> their own chests.

Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell down
on they job.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jay Honeck]

>> I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing the finger
>> of blame everywhere except at their own chests.
>
> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
> down on they job.

"They did everything they could?" Please.

National Geographic has been describing "the inevitable catastrophe that is
New Orleans" for decades. In fact, I just received a copy of a National
Geographic article, written long ago, that outlined the exact scenario that
occurred with Katrina.

New Orleans politicians were at the very least incompetent, at the very most
criminally responsible for the death of their city. If the Federal
Government didn't do something, it is only because local politicians didn't
lobby hard enough or effectively.

Let's reverse the question, George. Who, in your opinion, inside the
Federal Government, was "The Man" responsible for "fixing" New Orleans?
Who failed?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
> fell down on they job.

Everything? Let's not get carried away. The hazard of a hurricane has been
known for decades, and the local governments only finally got consensus on
what to do around 1998.

There's plenty of blame to go around for everyone, from local all the way up
to the federal level.

The really offensive part is that not enough people will see any of this as
a problem worth caring about. The next disaster that comes along, we will
probably have been well aware of its potential, and we will have done
nothing to prepare for it.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:eLNUe.321892$x96.27592@attbi_s72...
> [...]
> New Orleans politicians were at the very least incompetent, at the very
> most criminally responsible for the death of their city. If the Federal
> Government didn't do something, it is only because local politicians
> didn't lobby hard enough or effectively.

That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had in fact
been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was diverted to fund the
Iraq war. Likewise, a significant component of FEMA's ineffectiveness is
tied directly to the whole Department of Homeland Security boondoggle.

Using your logic, we pilots are completely, solely responsible for the
pseudo-ADIZ around the DC area, and the defacto closure of the "DC3" general
aviation airports, because we "didn't lobby hard enough or effectively".
You may actually believe that, but I doubt you'd find many in agreement with
that belief. I certainly am not.

> Let's reverse the question, George. Who, in your opinion, inside the
> Federal Government, was "The Man" responsible for "fixing" New Orleans?
> Who failed?

Why does it have to be one single person? The failure was a conspiracy of
apathy and short-term gains, along with some severly misguided priorities,
across all levels of government.

Pete

[sfb]

New Orleans politicians includes the Congressional delegation who are
the Federals. While the President proposes, the Congress writes and
passes the legislation. That the levees weren't upgraded is as much the
fault of the Congressional delegation as anybody as they have the power
to make it happen if they had wanted.


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
>> I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing the
>> finger of blame everywhere except at their own chests.
>
> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
> fell down on they job.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person
> to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[sfb]

The Corps of Engineers had some ideas in the 1970s only to be shot down
in court by the environmentalists.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
>> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
>> fell down on they job.
>
> Everything? Let's not get carried away. The hazard of a hurricane
> has been known for decades, and the local governments only finally got
> consensus on what to do around 1998.
>
> There's plenty of blame to go around for everyone, from local all the
> way up to the federal level.
>
> The really offensive part is that not enough people will see any of
> this as a problem worth caring about. The next disaster that comes
> along, we will probably have been well aware of its potential, and we
> will have done nothing to prepare for it.
>
> Pete
>

[Tom S.]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
>> I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing the finger
>> of blame everywhere except at their own chests.
>
> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
> down on they job.

Total, absolute BS.

[Tom S.]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:08OUe.5035$8h6.4620@trnddc09...
> New Orleans politicians includes the Congressional delegation who are the
> Federals. While the President proposes, the Congress writes and passes the
> legislation. That the levees weren't upgraded is as much the fault of the
> Congressional delegation as anybody as they have the power to make it
> happen if they had wanted.
>
Not quite:

In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Lake Pontchartrain and
Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at two
strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf of Mexico
from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An article in the May 28,
2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, “Under the original plan,
floodgate-type structures would have been built at the Rigolets and Chef
Menteur passes to block storm surges from moving from the Gulf into Lake
Pontchartrain.”



“The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of
Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer] into
Lake Pontchartrain,” declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James P. Morgan
Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies Institute of
Louisiana State University. “This would likely have reduced storm surge
coming from the Gulf and into the Lake Pontchartrain,” Professor Stone told
Michael P. Tremoglie during an interview on September 6. The professor
concluded, “[T]hese floodgates would have alleviated the flooding of New
Orleans caused by Hurricane Katrina.”

The New Orleans Army Corps of Engineers and Professor Stone were not the
only people cognizant of the consequences that could and did result because
of the environmental activists. While speaking with Sean Hannity on his
radio show on Labor Day, former Louisiana Congressman and Speaker of the
House Bob Livingston also referred to environmentalists whose litigation
prevented hurricane prevention projects.

In other words, unlike other programs – including the ones leftists like Sid
Blumenthal excoriated the president for not funding – these constructions
might have prevented the loss of life experienced in the aftermath of
Hurricane Katrina.


Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those plans were
abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued to stop the
projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's eco-system.”
(Emphasis added.) Specifically, in 1977, a state environmentalist group
known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have it stopped. SOWL stated the
proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur floodgates of the Lake Pontchartrain
Hurricane Prevention Project would have a negative effect on the area
surrounding Lake Pontchartrain. Further, SOWL’s recollection of this case
demonstrates they considered this move the first step in a perfidious design
to drain Lake Pontchartrain entirely and open the area to dreaded capitalist
investment.


On December 30, 1977, U.S. District Judge Charles Schwartz Jr. issued an
injunction against the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Lake Pontchartrain
hurricane protection project, demanding the engineers draw up a second
environmental impact statement, three years after the corps submitted the
first one. In one of the most ironic pronouncements of all time, Judge
Schwartz wrote, “it is the opinion of the Court that plaintiffs herein have
demonstrated that they, and in fact all persons in this area, will be
irreparably harmed if the barrier project based upon the August, 1974 FEIS
[federal environmental impact statement] is allowed to continue.”

<read the rest at:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418 >

[Tom S.]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:uLMUe.15686$Qv6.12068@trndny04...
> Tom S. wrote:
>>
>> "By 1998, Louisiana’s state government had a $2 billion construction
>> budget, but less than one-tenth of one percent, or $1.98 million, was
>> dedicated to New Orleans levee improvements. By contrast, $22 million was
>> spent that year to renovate a home for the Louisiana Supreme Court.
>
> Again. The levees are owned by the Federal government, not the State.
>

But they (ACoE) do not have sole jurisdiction over them; the state has
control/responsibility for certain areas.aspects.

The Army Core of Engineers built Cherry Creek Dam in SE Denver, but the
state of Colorado has responsibility for much of it.

[Jay Honeck]

> That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had in
> fact been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was diverted to
> fund the Iraq war.

Source?

> Using your logic, we pilots are completely, solely responsible for the
> pseudo-ADIZ around the DC area, and the defacto closure of the "DC3"
> general aviation airports, because we "didn't lobby hard enough or
> effectively". You may actually believe that, but I doubt you'd find many
> in agreement with that belief. I certainly am not.

While you may consider the Washington ADIZ to be a disaster on a scale with
Katrina, I suspect most of us don't see any comparison.

Katrina was a known entity long in advance of her arrival. Here's an
excerpt from a National Geographic article, written by Joel K. Bourne, Jr.,
and published in ~2002:
************************************************** ***
"It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy,
the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were
swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who
invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a
hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in
August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash
Wednesday."

"But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As
the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people
evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however "the car-less,
the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who
look for any excuse to throw a party."

"The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a
deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of
the massive ber! m that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80
percent of New Orleans lies below sea level more than eight feet below in
places so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick
ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over
the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through
the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the
Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city,
people climbed onto roofs to escape it."

"Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage
and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished
from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two
months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a
blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were
dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United
States."

"When did this calamity happen? It hasn't yet. But the doomsday scenario is
not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane
strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up
there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New
York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the
city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great."
************************************************** ***
Uncanny, no?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[sfb]

The lawsuit stopped a plan in the lake. Do you have a reference where
the lawsuit prevented levee improvements after the 1970s? If so, you
should tell the Corps cause they are still working on the levees. Sounds
like a song.
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/HURPROJ.asp?prj=lkpon1

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "sfb" > wrote in message
> news:08OUe.5035$8h6.4620@trnddc09...
>> New Orleans politicians includes the Congressional delegation who are
>> the Federals. While the President proposes, the Congress writes and
>> passes the legislation. That the levees weren't upgraded is as much
>> the fault of the Congressional delegation as anybody as they have the
>> power to make it happen if they had wanted.
>>
> Not quite:
>
> In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Lake Pontchartrain and
> Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at
> two strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf
> of Mexico from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An
> article in the May 28, 2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, “Under
> the original plan, floodgate-type structures would have been built at
> the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes to block storm surges from moving
> from the Gulf into Lake Pontchartrain.”
>
>
>
> “The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of
> Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer]
> into Lake Pontchartrain,” declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James
> P. Morgan Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies
> Institute of Louisiana State University. “This would likely have
> reduced storm surge coming from the Gulf and into the Lake
> Pontchartrain,” Professor Stone told Michael P. Tremoglie during an
> interview on September 6. The professor concluded, “[T]hese floodgates
> would have alleviated the flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane
> Katrina.”
>
> The New Orleans Army Corps of Engineers and Professor Stone were not
> the only people cognizant of the consequences that could and did
> result because of the environmental activists. While speaking with
> Sean Hannity on his radio show on Labor Day, former Louisiana
> Congressman and Speaker of the House Bob Livingston also referred to
> environmentalists whose litigation prevented hurricane prevention
> projects.
>
> In other words, unlike other programs – including the ones leftists
> like Sid Blumenthal excoriated the president for not funding – these
> constructions might have prevented the loss of life experienced in the
> aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
>
>
> Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those
> plans were abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued
> to stop the projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's
> eco-system.” (Emphasis added.) Specifically, in 1977, a state
> environmentalist group known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have
> it stopped. SOWL stated the proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur
> floodgates of the Lake Pontchartrain Hurricane Prevention Project
> would have a negative effect on the area surrounding Lake
> Pontchartrain. Further, SOWL’s recollection of this case demonstrates
> they considered this move the first step in a perfidious design to
> drain Lake Pontchartrain entirely and open the area to dreaded
> capitalist investment.
>
>
> On December 30, 1977, U.S. District Judge Charles Schwartz Jr. issued
> an injunction against the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Lake
> Pontchartrain hurricane protection project, demanding the engineers
> draw up a second environmental impact statement, three years after the
> corps submitted the first one. In one of the most ironic
> pronouncements of all time, Judge Schwartz wrote, “it is the opinion
> of the Court that plaintiffs herein have demonstrated that they, and
> in fact all persons in this area, will be irreparably harmed if the
> barrier project based upon the August, 1974 FEIS [federal
> environmental impact statement] is allowed to continue.”
>
> <read the rest at:
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418 >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:7sOUe.321955$x96.282834@attbi_s72...
>> That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had in
>> fact been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was diverted to
>> fund the Iraq war.
>
> Source?

I'm tempted to use the "just****inggoogleit.com" web site here, but in the
interest of whatever, here's the first Google link from a trivially easy
search:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

There are plenty of other articles documenting the fact, if you bother to
look.

> While you may consider the Washington ADIZ to be a disaster on a scale
> with Katrina, I suspect most of us don't see any comparison.

The scale of the "disaster" is irrelevant to the comparison. The principle
you're espousing should apply equally regardless.

I can believe that YOU don't understand the comparison. But that's only
because it contradicts what you think. You have never changed your mind on
anything, nor have you ever admitted error, and I don't expect to see you do
it now. But the fact remains, you putting 100% of the blame on the local
governments in New Orleans and Louisiana just because they "didn't lobby
hard enough or effectively" just makes no sense.

Lack of federal action does not prove that someone did not lobby hard
enough. All it proves is that the federal government took no action.

Pete

[Dave Stadt]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > I'm really, REALLY tired of
> > New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except
at
> > their own chests.
>
> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
down
> on they job.

I don't think you can back-up that statement. Indications are the local and
state governments did little to nothing.

>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Peter Duniho]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> <read the rest at:
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418 >

Of course, what that article fails to point out is that the
environmentalists were actually right. In spite of their efforts, other
projects (diversion of the Mississipi River mainly) have nearly obliterated
the wetlands around New Orleans that provide a buffer from storms.

Not all that surprising, given the intense right-wing slant of
frontpagemag.com.

This is an article from 2001, quite closely predicting exactly what
happened, and explaining some of the environmental issues related to it:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=00060286-CB58-1315-8B5883414B7F0000&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Basically, it would have been possible to provide useful protection to New
Orleans *without* destroying the wetlands, and in fact protecting and
restoring the wetlands was one of the most important things they could have
done to protect New Orleans from storms. Destroying more of the environment
in order to compensate for destruction already wrought is a senseless
approach.

Pete

[sfb]

Story about a story. Go back to the actual articles and see what the
source was. Most likely those sorry sacks of **** in Congress who could
make levee improvements happen getting their fat asses off the hook
blaming it on some other dude much like OJ.

The Corps of Engineers budget has become a smoke and mirrors game with
the President going low the Congress could adding their pet projects to
get brownie points with voters. Any definitive study has to look at any
and all projects in Louisiana that were added by Congress or the
spending increased by Congress. If and only if Congress never added a
nickel to the original budget requests from the Corps, then you can
blame somebody else.


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:7sOUe.321955$x96.282834@attbi_s72...
>>> That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had
>>> in fact been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was
>>> diverted to fund the Iraq war.
>>
>> Source?
>
> I'm tempted to use the "just****inggoogleit.com" web site here, but in
> the interest of whatever, here's the first Google link from a
> trivially easy search:
>
> http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313
>
> There are plenty of other articles documenting the fact, if you bother
> to look.
>
>> While you may consider the Washington ADIZ to be a disaster on a
>> scale with Katrina, I suspect most of us don't see any comparison.
>
> The scale of the "disaster" is irrelevant to the comparison. The
> principle you're espousing should apply equally regardless.
>
> I can believe that YOU don't understand the comparison. But that's
> only because it contradicts what you think. You have never changed
> your mind on anything, nor have you ever admitted error, and I don't
> expect to see you do it now. But the fact remains, you putting 100%
> of the blame on the local governments in New Orleans and Louisiana
> just because they "didn't lobby hard enough or effectively" just makes
> no sense.
>
> Lack of federal action does not prove that someone did not lobby hard
> enough. All it proves is that the federal government took no action.
>
> Pete
>

[Tom S.]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:SAOUe.5043$8h6.369@trnddc09...
> The lawsuit stopped a plan in the lake. Do you have a reference where the
> lawsuit prevented levee improvements after the 1970s? If so, you should
> tell the Corps cause they are still working on the levees. Sounds like a
> song.

Read again what the suit prevented and the enviro's comments. Also, unless
overturned, the holding by the judge still stands.


> http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/HURPROJ.asp?prj=lkpon1
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "sfb" > wrote in message
>> news:08OUe.5035$8h6.4620@trnddc09...
>>> New Orleans politicians includes the Congressional delegation who are
>>> the Federals. While the President proposes, the Congress writes and
>>> passes the legislation. That the levees weren't upgraded is as much the
>>> fault of the Congressional delegation as anybody as they have the power
>>> to make it happen if they had wanted.
>>>
>> Not quite:
>>
>> In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Lake Pontchartrain and
>> Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at two
>> strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf of
>> Mexico from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An article in
>> the May 28, 2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, “Under the original
>> plan, floodgate-type structures would have been built at the Rigolets and
>> Chef Menteur passes to block storm surges from moving from the Gulf into
>> Lake Pontchartrain.”
>>
>>
>>
>> “The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of
>> Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer] into
>> Lake Pontchartrain,” declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James P.
>> Morgan Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies
>> Institute of Louisiana State University. “This would likely have reduced
>> storm surge coming from the Gulf and into the Lake Pontchartrain,”
>> Professor Stone told Michael P. Tremoglie during an interview on
>> September 6. The professor concluded, “[T]hese floodgates would have
>> alleviated the flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Katrina.”
>>
>> The New Orleans Army Corps of Engineers and Professor Stone were not the
>> only people cognizant of the consequences that could and did result
>> because of the environmental activists. While speaking with Sean Hannity
>> on his radio show on Labor Day, former Louisiana Congressman and Speaker
>> of the House Bob Livingston also referred to environmentalists whose
>> litigation prevented hurricane prevention projects.
>>
>> In other words, unlike other programs – including the ones leftists like
>> Sid Blumenthal excoriated the president for not funding – these
>> constructions might have prevented the loss of life experienced in the
>> aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
>>
>>
>> Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those plans
>> were abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued to stop
>> the projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's eco-system.”
>> (Emphasis added.) Specifically, in 1977, a state environmentalist group
>> known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have it stopped. SOWL stated
>> the proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur floodgates of the Lake
>> Pontchartrain Hurricane Prevention Project would have a negative effect
>> on the area surrounding Lake Pontchartrain. Further, SOWL’s recollection
>> of this case demonstrates they considered this move the first step in a
>> perfidious design to drain Lake Pontchartrain entirely and open the area
>> to dreaded capitalist investment.
>>
>>
>> On December 30, 1977, U.S. District Judge Charles Schwartz Jr. issued an
>> injunction against the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Lake Pontchartrain
>> hurricane protection project, demanding the engineers draw up a second
>> environmental impact statement, three years after the corps submitted the
>> first one. In one of the most ironic pronouncements of all time, Judge
>> Schwartz wrote, “it is the opinion of the Court that plaintiffs herein
>> have demonstrated that they, and in fact all persons in this area, will
>> be irreparably harmed if the barrier project based upon the August, 1974
>> FEIS [federal environmental impact statement] is allowed to continue.”
>>
>> <read the rest at:
>> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418 >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:mVOUe.5047$8h6.2748@trnddc09...
> Story about a story. Go back to the actual articles and see what the
> source was. Most likely those sorry sacks of **** in Congress who could
> make levee improvements happen getting their fat asses off the hook
> blaming it on some other dude much like OJ.

Yeah, right. Whatever. I don't see how your oh-so-eloquent version of the
blame game is even mutually exclusive with what I wrote, or what the article
says.

My point is that the federal government shares plenty of blame. Frankly, it
should be obvious to even the most dim observer that the Iraq war, *and* all
of the domestic anti-terrorism crap, has diverted huge amounts of money. To
the tune of, oh, nearly half a TRILLION DOLLARS!

> [...] If and only if Congress never added a nickel to the original budget
> requests from the Corps, then you can blame somebody else.

I can and do blame lots of different people, Congress included.

Pete

[Montblack]

("George Patterson" wrote)
>> I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing the finger
>> of blame everywhere except at their own chests.

> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
> down on they job.


[Book links below]
I saw an author, John M Barry, on (Book TV - honest, that's what it's called
<g>) C-Span2. Not a great speaker, but his research was interesting as hell.
1927 Mississippi River flood - including New Orleans.

One look at events surrounding the flood was - Hoover was all about spin
....and PR, and he was the master of both. He was also all about being FEMA,
the National Guard, Mayor Rudy Giuliani, and the Red Cross all rolled into
one ....to which the Author gives high praise to Hoover for the outstanding
job he did successfully wearing those many different hats.

It was 1927 and Hoover wasn't even anyone's dark horse candidate for
nomination, by his party, in the next summer's presidential convention.

When the devastating 1927 Mississippi River flood hit, he was the man put in
charge of the relief effort. His successful handling of the Mississippi
River flood relief program helped launch him into the White House the
following fall.

Some obstacals for Hoover were:
Half that part of the country didn't have paved roads, electricity, or
telephones. There was also no good national highway system, plus local maps
in 1932 were iffy at best. Helicopters were nowhere to be found and few
boats had motors on them. Radios were not in all homes (looking for a web %
but came up empty) and field communications were difficult.

And yet, Herbert Hoover did an 'outstanding' job. How he did it and what he
was up against are covered in the book. Hope it's a good read ($10 at
Amazon). It was a GREAT Q&A TV segment with the author.


<http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=29017&cgi=product&isbn=0684840022>
Rising Tide: The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How It Changed America

<http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684840022/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-4945882-4273705#reader-link>
Amazon.com link. Ordered a copy tonight for my brother's birthday -
fascinating history, I'll read it when he finishes the book :-)


<http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=8&sortorder=articledate>
An author less impressed with Herbert Hoover's flood relief efforts.


Montblack

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:23:32 -0700, Tom S. wrote:

>> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
>> down on they job.
>
>Total, absolute BS.

but what are the reasons for hindering (? - do they?) foreign help? this is
a federal thing.

yesterday on a German TV channel: about 15 tons of ready prepared meals may
not be delivered, they are already in a cargo plane. A small mobile ER with
its own power generator was delayed for 3 days, ready to be sent to help
out a little bit. At least, the German THW is now on site with their pumps
<http://www.thw.bund.de/>

martin

--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed,
most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we
come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

[Doug Carter]

In article <GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01>, George Patterson wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
>> I'm really, REALLY tired of
>> New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except at
>> their own chests.
>
> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell down
> on they job.
>

The Mayor and Governor should have admitted that they had not prepared for a
hurricane and were helpless *before* the hurricane.. Instead, they
continue to pretend that they had been doing their jobs and should stay
in charge.

On a newscast yesterday morning, various officials were giving status
reports and guidelines for what to expect. The Chief of Police spent
more than half of his allotted time asking for help for his wife who was
already safely in another city. Typical.

Not that FEMA did much better this time than they did in previous
hurricanes.

Rather than another useless attempt to "fix" governments ability to
conduct relief operations we should admit that governments simply don't
get the job done and change the tax code to provide a dollar for dollar
tax (not AGI reduction) for donations to private relief organizations.

[Doug Carter]

In article >, Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:eLNUe.321892$x96.27592@attbi_s72...
>> [...]
>> New Orleans politicians were at the very least incompetent, at the very
>> most criminally responsible for the death of their city. If the Federal
>> Government didn't do something, it is only because local politicians
>> didn't lobby hard enough or effectively.
>
> That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had in fact
> been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was diverted to fund the
> Iraq war.

Upgrading the levees has been put off by both Democrat and Republican
congresses since at least the Carter administration with more than a
little help from environmentalists who along with other barking moon bats
like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. who claim that the hurricane was Bushes fault.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=19418

[Doug Carter]

In article >, Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
>> [...]
>> <read the rest at:
>> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418 >
>
> Of course, what that article fails to point out is that the
> environmentalists were actually right. In spite of their efforts, other
> projects (diversion of the Mississipi River mainly) have nearly obliterated
> the wetlands around New Orleans that provide a buffer from storms.

Sounds like the best plan is to allow Mother Nature (hurricanes,
erosion, etc.) to return the New Orleans area to wetlands.

[Jay Honeck]

> I can believe that YOU don't understand the comparison. But that's only
> because it contradicts what you think. You have never changed your mind
> on anything, nor have you ever admitted error, and I don't expect to see
> you do it now. But the fact remains, you putting 100% of the blame on the
> local governments in New Orleans and Louisiana just because they "didn't
> lobby hard enough or effectively" just makes no sense.

Unbelievable.

The E&P article says the Federal Government has been "working with New
Orleans since the 1960s to shore up the levee system around New Orlean" --
yet you (and the Times Picayune editor) place the blame for Katrina on the
Bush Administration because of things that have happened since 2003?

If you can't smell a politically motivated story better than *that*, Pete, I
wonder how you get through the day?

> The scale of the "disaster" is irrelevant to the comparison. The
> principle you're espousing should apply equally regardless.

That's nonsense. Methods can -- and do -- change with scope. For example,
a broken drinking fountain at your local school does not merit the same
political tactics as, say, a levee system.

Which, of course, is all beside the point of this thread. Arrest King
Daley!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> It was 1927 and Hoover wasn't even anyone's dark horse candidate for
> nomination, by his party, in the next summer's presidential convention.
>
> When the devastating 1927 Mississippi River flood hit, he was the man put
> in
> charge of the relief effort. His successful handling of the Mississippi
> River flood relief program helped launch him into the White House the
> following fall.

This is but one example of what Herbert Hoover did for this country -- and
the world. He was, indeed, an amazing man who did many great things. His
legacy has been sadly (and, largely, unavoidably) been burdened with the
dark pall of the Great Depression occurring on his watch.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> yesterday on a German TV channel: about 15 tons of ready prepared meals
> may
> not be delivered, they are already in a cargo plane. A small mobile ER
> with
> its own power generator was delayed for 3 days, ready to be sent to help
> out a little bit. At least, the German THW is now on site with their pumps
> <http://www.thw.bund.de/>

Don't feel badly -- this is happening all over the country, as well as the
world.

Basically, the problem is twofold:

1. Too much stuff trying to be delivered all at once. There, quite simply,
is no way to distribute everyone's generosity.
2. The need for this kind of stuff is fading fast.

Shoot, we (Iowa) still have thousands of beds ready for refugees who have
not materialized.

Between this, and the dwindling death toll estimates (from "tens of
thousands" to less than 500?), methinks we might be becoming victims of yet
another "Media Event"? Not to downplay the material destruction of
Katrina -- that's obvious, and easily verified -- but I'm starting to think
that the media played up the human toll of the hurricane well beyond what
was really happening on the ground.

Which isn't surprising, I suppose -- disaster sells. I'm sure CNN's ratings
went through the roof for a week or two.

But this is all beside the point of this thread -- arrest King Daley!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rich Lemert]

Montblack wrote:
>
> And yet, Herbert Hoover did an 'outstanding' job. How he did it and what he
> was up against are covered in the book. Hope it's a good read ($10 at
> Amazon). It was a GREAT Q&A TV segment with the author.
>

They mentioned Hoover on the radio this morning, pointing out how
Chertoff and Brown (Homeland Security and FEMA, respectively) are
lawyers, while Hoover was an engineer. They also commented that
Hoover had previous experience in handling emergency situations (the
one I remember was feeding Belgium after WWI), something Chertoff and
Brown are lacking.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:46:56 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>Don't feel badly -- this is happening all over the country, as well as the
>world.
>
>Basically, the problem is twofold:
>
>1. Too much stuff trying to be delivered all at once. There, quite simply,
>is no way to distribute everyone's generosity.
>2. The need for this kind of stuff is fading fast.

well, the same report said that for the flood in Asia last Xmas they hven't
had those hassles with bureaucracy etc. - btw: the organisations here
responded within a day and not 4 days.

#m
--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed,
most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we
come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

[Jay Honeck]

> well, the same report said that for the flood in Asia last Xmas they hven't
> had those hassles with bureaucracy etc. - btw: the organisations here
> responded within a day and not 4 days.

I guess that only confirms my long-held suspicion that we have the
worst, least efficient government bureacracy in the world.

All you have to do is walk into the Department of Motor Vehicles, of
any state in the Union, and you would know *that* in about five
minutes.

Anyone who believes that these same government morons will instantly
become icons of efficiency when put under intense pressure (As in
Katrina) doesn't understand human nature very well.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:DoWUe.323741$_o.177425@attbi_s71...
> The E&P article says the Federal Government has been "working with New
> Orleans since the 1960s to shore up the levee system around New Orlean" --
> yet you (and the Times Picayune editor) place the blame for Katrina on the
> Bush Administration because of things that have happened since 2003?

No, I (and the Times-Picayune editor) place *part* of the blame for Katrina
on the Bush Administration because of things that have happened since 2003.
It's called "fair and balanced reporting", something the folks who actually
use that phrase know nothing about.

I agree that the Iraq war did not have the sole detrimental effect on the
current situation, as work required to shore up the levees would have had to
start before the Iraq war did. Keep in mind, however, that the Iraq war and
the DHS generally are also responsible for screwing up the federal
capability for disaster response, both monetarily and organizationally. The
levees were just one example of federal willfullness in neglect; they are
far from the sole supporting evidence.

A significant problem certainly was the delay in the local governments to
recognize that there IS a problem. That does not mean that the federal is
blameless, or that they themselves did everything they should have.

As usual, your black and white view of the world is failing you. Always
has, always will.

> If you can't smell a politically motivated story better than *that*, Pete,
> I wonder how you get through the day?

I get through the day just fine, thank you very much.

>> The scale of the "disaster" is irrelevant to the comparison. The
>> principle you're espousing should apply equally regardless.
>
> That's nonsense. Methods can -- and do -- change with scope. For
> example, a broken drinking fountain at your local school does not merit
> the same political tactics as, say, a levee system.

Really? Suppose the broken fountain remains broken. Suppose it causes
massive water damage to the building structure, through rot, mildew, fungus,
etc. Perhaps a few children slip on the wet floor and injure themselves.
One even manages to land their head on an exposed pipe and winds up dead.

It's your assertion that even though you comfortably blame the local
governments for failing to "lobby hard enough" in New Orleans, that it's
still reasonable to not blame the school staff or parents for failing to
"lobby hard enough" to get the higher-level officials to do something about
the problem?

No, you are simply wrong. When the higher-level officials refuse to help,
and even take promised help away, even as the local governments DO lobby
plenty hard enough asking for help, it is the higher-level officials that
are at fault, at least partly.

I'll say it again, since you seemed to have missed it the first time:

Lack of federal action does not prove that someone did not lobby hard
enough. All it proves is that the federal government took no action.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Doug Carter" > wrote in message
ire.net...
> Upgrading the levees has been put off by both Democrat and Republican
> congresses since at least the Carter administration

My statement was simply one example of federal neglect. It seems lots of
Bushies are getting their panties in a wad, taking it as a personal attack
against their beloved President. As much as I dislike Bush, I am under no
illusion that the federal neglect began with Bush (Sr or Jr).

The point here is that the federal government is not blameless. Your post
simply reinforces that point. Thank you.

> with more than a
> little help from environmentalists who along with other barking moon bats
> like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. who claim that the hurricane was Bushes fault.
>
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=19418

Ahh yes, more "supporting evidence" from that fine upstanding, bias-free
publication, frontpagemag.com.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Doug Carter" > wrote in message
ire.net...
> Sounds like the best plan is to allow Mother Nature (hurricanes,
> erosion, etc.) to return the New Orleans area to wetlands.

That's certainly one plan. Another (highlighted in the Scientific American
article) would be to artificially restore the wetlands and barrier islands
through constructive (rather than the current destructive) diversion of the
Mississipi.

Something like that could be done without having to remove the city of New
Orleans.

Of course, *some* risk would always be present, but it would be
significantly reduced, and it would greatly reduce the maximum damage
possible.

Pete

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, I (and the Times-Picayune editor) place *part* of the blame for
> Katrina on the Bush Administration because of things that have happened
> since 2003.

So what *part* of the blame for Katrina do you and the Times-Picayune editor
place on Bush?

[Ash Wyllie]

Jay Honeck opined

>> It was 1927 and Hoover wasn't even anyone's dark horse candidate for
>> nomination, by his party, in the next summer's presidential convention.
>>
>> When the devastating 1927 Mississippi River flood hit, he was the man put
>> in
>> charge of the relief effort. His successful handling of the Mississippi
>> River flood relief program helped launch him into the White House the
>> following fall.

>This is but one example of what Herbert Hoover did for this country -- and
>the world. He was, indeed, an amazing man who did many great things. His
>legacy has been sadly (and, largely, unavoidably) been burdened with the
>dark pall of the Great Depression occurring on his watch.

HH could have blocked the Depression by vetoing the Smoot-Hawling tariffs. Had
he vetoed the 1932 income tax increase years would have been removed from the
Depression.

Few presidents really screw up badly, fewer still twice in a single term.



-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> I guess that only confirms my long-held suspicion that we have the
> worst, least efficient government bureacracy in the world.
>
> All you have to do is walk into the Department of Motor Vehicles, of
> any state in the Union, and you would know *that* in about five
> minutes.

I kills me to say this, but the RMV here in Massachusetts is really
quite quick. The long long LONG delays that I used to experience
are gone. For at least the past five years, the few times I need
to go to the RMV have been real short visits.

Maybe Massachusetts RMV is the exception that proves the rule.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[john smith]

Peter, I was taught that the House and Senate decide what goes in the
budget and gets passed up to the President.
If money is cut out of the budget, why does the President get the blame?
"The President proposes, the Congress disposes!"

[Montblack]

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
> So what *part* of the blame for Katrina do you and the Times-Picayune
> editor place on Bush?


I blame the Times-Piayune :-)

Where's their Pulitzer for all of those 'Corruption And Our Hurricane
Planning' pieces they've been running, twice a year, for the past 25 years?


Montblack

[Montblack]

("Doug Carter" wrote)
> On a newscast yesterday morning, various officials were giving status
> reports and guidelines for what to expect. The Chief of Police spent
> more than half of his allotted time asking for help for his wife who was
> already safely in another city. Typical.


When I see the Chief of Police interviewed on TV (about 4 times now) ...I
just don't get it?

To be fair to the Chief, he doesn't have 15 handlers, including Karl
Christian Rove, prep'n him daily for his outings with the press. Nor does he
have a supper high tech nano-chip voice communication implant in his scull
either. <g>


Montblack

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
[snip]
> Which isn't surprising, I suppose -- disaster sells. I'm sure CNN's
> ratings went through the roof for a week or two.
>
> But this is all beside the point of this thread -- arrest King Daley!


What are the odds that Jay will constantly bring it back On Topic in this
thread?

100% <g>


Montblack

[Tom S.]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Peter, I was taught that the House and Senate decide what goes in the
> budget and gets passed up to the President.
> If money is cut out of the budget, why does the President get the blame?

NOTE: Line-item-veto

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Tom S." > wrote:

> > Peter, I was taught that the House and Senate decide what goes in the
> > budget and gets passed up to the President.
> > If money is cut out of the budget, why does the President get the blame?
>
> NOTE: Line-item-veto

and what year was the line item veto first available?

and exercised how many times and on what items?

overturned how many times?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[sfb]

Care to explain how the line item veto adds anything?

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Peter, I was taught that the House and Senate decide what goes in the
>> budget and gets passed up to the President.
>> If money is cut out of the budget, why does the President get the
>> blame?
>
> NOTE: Line-item-veto
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
> > Jay Honeck wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm really, REALLY tired of
> > > New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except
> at
> > > their own chests.
> >
> > Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
fell
> down
> > on they job.
>
> I don't think you can back-up that statement. Indications are the local
and
> state governments did little to nothing.

And what little they DID DO, they did WRONG.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Tom S." > wrote:
>
> > > Peter, I was taught that the House and Senate decide what goes in the
> > > budget and gets passed up to the President.
> > > If money is cut out of the budget, why does the President get the
blame?
> >
> > NOTE: Line-item-veto
>
> and what year was the line item veto first available?
>
> and exercised how many times and on what items?
>
> overturned how many times?

It doesn't exist, which is what, apparently, the MSM can't fathom.

[john smith]

> > I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing
> > the finger of blame everywhere except at their own chests.

> Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
> fell down on they job.

That is a false statement. The military have been the only really
effective force throughout this whole ordeal. They were not allowed in
until Thursday because the Governor of Louisiana wouldn't consent to
federal control of the military on Wednesday. She said she had to think
about it. That cost 24 hours of response time.

[George Patterson]

john smith wrote:
>
>>Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
>>fell down on they job.
>
> That is a false statement. The military have been the only really
> effective force throughout this whole ordeal.

We were talking about the effort to strengthen the levees. The locals don't own
them, would not have been allowed to do anything to them, and tried their best
to get the Corps of Engineers to strengthen them. Trying to blame the city of NO
for the levee failure is insanity.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Doug Carter wrote:
> In article <GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01>, George Patterson wrote:
>
>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>> >
>>
>>>I'm really, REALLY tired of
>>>New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except at
>>>their own chests.
>>
>>Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell down
>>on they job.
>
> The Mayor and Governor should have admitted that they had not prepared for a
> hurricane and were helpless *before* the hurricane..

And what does that have to do with the argument that the locals are somehow
responsible for the fact that the Federal government did not reinforce the levee
system which it owns?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[ThomasH]

On 08-Sep-05 19:31, Jay Honeck wrote:
> This from EAA:
>
> FAA Determines Meigs Closure Illegal, Imposes Maximum Fine
> Nearly 2 1/2 years after the fact, the FAA has determined that Mayor Richard
> Daley violated federal law when he ordered bulldozers to carve large "X's"
> into the runway at Chicago's lakefront jewel, Merrill C. Meigs Field, after
> midnight March 30, 2003. As a result, the FAA has levied a $33,000 fine, the
> maximum allowed by law, on the city. "This vindicates what we've said all
> along," said Steve Whitney, president of the Friends of Meigs Field. "Mayor
> Daley's midnight massacre of Meigs was illegal. Good government doesn't
> happen in the secret of night." The group calls on Daley himself to pay the
> fine. "The Mayor of Chicago knew when he did this that it was illegal and
> would incur fines," said Whitney. "Taxpayers should be outraged if they are
> made to pay for such blatant abuse of power." The FAA is also investigating
> whether the city improperly used over $2.8 million in restricted federal
> aviation funds designated for airport improvement. According to documents
> filed by the City of Chicago in December, $2,887,462 in airport funds was
> spent to demolish Meigs and make way for a nature park. If found in
> violation, the city may incur additional fines of $8 million or more. For
> more information, visit www.friendsofmeigs.org.
>
> Let's hope Daley ends up behind bars -- or in the looney bin -- where he
> belongs.

We all can hope, but hope is all we will have about that! He is
like the Teflon-Don, he will walk. I would rather hope that they
would be forced to... repair the airport!! Yeahh..

A few of images which I made during our landing in Meigs made
it to a movie about GA and preservation of airports in the US:

http://onesixright.com/

Fantastic High-definition flight scenes and a great documentary!

One segment of the movie was devoted to a series of closed
airports, especially the story of Meigs was told in greater
detail. I assumed that the airport will be "frozen" in its
damaged condition. But in this movie I saw for the first
time that they removed the entire injured runway and the
all buildings, and... run of out money! The Island is for
the birds now. Shocking.

The movie will not be easy to be seen in theaters. We were
invited to the premiere in Hollywood, Bary Shiff spoke
laudatio and the entire management of Cessna was also
present:

http://www.pbase.com/thh/2005_06_25_16r_premiere

900 people came and AOPA Pilot magazine reported about its
making. Even if the airport was lost, the outcry about this
story is great and might help in preserving other airports.

Thomas

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-09-12, George Patterson > wrote:
> Doug Carter wrote:
>> In article <GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01>, George Patterson wrote:
>>
>>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> >
>>>
>>>>I'm really, REALLY tired of
>>>>New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except at
>>>>their own chests.
>>>
>>>Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell down
>>>on they job.
>>
>> The Mayor and Governor should have admitted that they had not prepared for a
>> hurricane and were helpless *before* the hurricane..
>
> And what does that have to do with the argument that the locals are somehow
> responsible for the fact that the Federal government did not reinforce the levee
> system which it owns?

I was responding to the posters assertion, not your recent remarks about
levees, but still, the same point applies..

Every congress since at least the Carter administration has avoided
funding levee improvements (with more than a little help from
environmentalists and the courts).

Since the shortcomings of the levee system has been known for decades
the city had, as part of its emergency response plan, the responsibility
to use its municipal and school buses to evacuate those without other
transport. The city disregarded their own plan; these buses are now
under water.

Should the congress have used $20-100b of taxpayers money to subsidize
the city of New Orleans bright idea of housing a half million people
below sea level in one of the highest hurricane risk areas in the world?
Perhaps, but if you know a drunk driver is careening at you its a poor
time to stand on "your rights."

[Jay Honeck]

> And what does that have to do with the argument that the locals are
> somehow responsible for the fact that the Federal government did not
> reinforce the levee system which it owns?

Well, George, if I was living in a city that was below sea level, surrounded
by water, I'd do one of two things:

1. Organize the political will to get the levees reinforced.
2. Leave.

I guess it's a Darwin thing.

You seem to regard the Federal Government as a monolithic, unresponsive
structure located far, far away from N.O. N.O. had representatives and
senators in Congress to get the job done, just like every other part of the
country. Hell, MY representatives managed to get Congress to appropriate
money (like, $100 million!) to build a friggin' RAIN FOREST in Iowa -- image
that?

If *that* is possible, ANYTHING is possible.

All politics are local. Louisiana state reps failed, N.O. local government
failed, and ultimately the residents of N.O. failed to express the political
will to fix their own problem -- with catastrophic results.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom S.]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:G_7Ve.15050$626.5366@trndny08...
> john smith wrote:
>>
>>>Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
>>>fell down on they job.
>>
>> That is a false statement. The military have been the only really
>> effective force throughout this whole ordeal.
>
> We were talking about the effort to strengthen the levees. The locals
> don't own them, would not have been allowed to do anything to them, and
> tried their best to get the Corps of Engineers to strengthen them. Trying
> to blame the city of NO for the levee failure is insanity.

Like the New Orleans Levee Board?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Investors Business Daily
Issues and Insights - Sept. 9, 2005

Mary, Mary, Quite (To The) Contrary
Posted 9/9/2005

Politics: Louisiana's senior senator, whose brother is lieutenant governor
and whose father was New Orleans' mayor, is blaming President Bush for "the
staggering incompetence of the federal government." Come again?

It's understandable that on the Sept. 4 edition of ABC's "This Week," Mary
Landrieu said of President Bush, "I might likely have to punch him -
literally" if he or members of his administration made any more disparaging
remarks about local authorities and their pre- and post-Katrina efforts.
Some are and were family.

Brother Mitch Landrieu is lieutenant governor of Louisiana. Father "Moon"
Landrieu was not only mayor of New Orleans, but also later became secretary
of housing and urban development under President Carter.

If anyone had clout in Washington, it would be this family and this
swing-state senator. She could easily have traded her vote on a key issue or
nomination for needed funding, a common practice in Washington. If funding
for levee repairs was less than adequate, she was in a position to get more.

Likewise, ex-Sen. John Breaux was arguably the most influential senator in
Washington during the Clinton years, and could easily have gotten more
funding, if nothing else, in an effort to break the growing GOP hold on the
South.

But if all money ever asked for was appropriated, as Breaux himself has
said, everyone knew that the levee system was designed for a Category 3
hurricane, and not for a "once every hundred years" storm that could put New
Orleans under 20 feet of water. And the track record of how money that was
appropriated was actually spent is not good.

Despite Landrieu's complaints of budget cuts and paltry funding, the fact is
that over the five years of the Bush administration, Louisiana has received
more money - $1.9 billion - for Army Corps of Engineers civil works projects
than any other state, and more than under any other administration over a
similar period. California is a distant second with less than $1.4 billion
despite a population more than seven times as large.

In December 1995, the Orleans Levee Board actually boasted to the New
Orleans Times-Picayune about all the federal money it had to protect the
city from hurricanes. As a result, the board said, the "most ambitious
flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted," one that would plug the
"few manageable gaps" in the levee system.

The problem was at the local level. The ambitious plan fell apart when the
state suspended the Levee Board's ability to refinance old bonds and issue
new ones. As the Times-Picayune reported, Legislative Auditor Dan Kyle
"repeatedly faulted the Levee Board for the way it awards contracts, spends
money and ignores no-bid contract laws." Blocked by the state from raising
local money, the federal matching funds went unspent.

By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget,
but less than one-tenth of one percent, or $1.98 million, was dedicated to
New Orleans levee improvements. By contrast, $22 million was spent that year
to renovate a home for the Louisiana Supreme Court.

Where did all the money go? Again, the Times-Picayune says much of the money
went not to flood control, but to lawmakers' pet projects, from a $750
million for a new canal lock to a $2.5 million Mardi Gras fountain project
that ran $600,000 over budget.

Nine months before Katrina, three top Louisiana Office of Homeland Security
and Emergency Preparedness officials were indicted by a federal grand jury
in Shreveport and charged, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office for the
Western District of Louisiana, "with offenses related to the obstruction of
an audit of the use of federal funds for flood mitigation opportunities
throughout Louisiana."

-------------------------

[Tom S.]

"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck opined
>
>>> It was 1927 and Hoover wasn't even anyone's dark horse candidate for
>>> nomination, by his party, in the next summer's presidential convention.
>>>
>>> When the devastating 1927 Mississippi River flood hit, he was the man
>>> put
>>> in
>>> charge of the relief effort. His successful handling of the Mississippi
>>> River flood relief program helped launch him into the White House the
>>> following fall.
>
>>This is but one example of what Herbert Hoover did for this country -- and
>>the world. He was, indeed, an amazing man who did many great things. His
>>legacy has been sadly (and, largely, unavoidably) been burdened with the
>>dark pall of the Great Depression occurring on his watch.
>
> HH could have blocked the Depression by vetoing the Smoot-Hawling tariffs.
> Had
> he vetoed the 1932 income tax increase years would have been removed from
> the
> Depression.
>
> Few presidents really screw up badly, fewer still twice in a single term.
>
Anyone who buys into the myth that Hoover caused the depression because he
"did nothing" should read Murray Rothbard's "The Great Depression". Not only
didn't Hoover do nothing, he did a great deal...all of it completely back
asswards.

[George Patterson]

Doug Carter wrote:
>
> I was responding to the posters assertion, not your recent remarks about
> levees,

Then you should quote them and not me.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> You seem to regard the Federal Government as a monolithic, unresponsive
> structure located far, far away from N.O.

No, I simply feel that the owners of items in this world are the people to be
held responsible for their maintenance, enhancement, and failures.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-09-12, George Patterson > wrote:
> Doug Carter wrote:
>>
>> I was responding to the posters assertion, not your recent remarks about
>> levees,
>
> Then you should quote them and not me.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here. You brought up levees,
apparently in response to my assertion that the local and state
governments clearly *did not* "...do everything they could..."

I responded directly to your reply, in context, correctly quoted;
copied below for easy reference.

All of this is, of course sidestepping the facts of the case and, more
importantly the original intent of this thread "Arrest King Daley" :)

---Reference materials---
On 2005-09-12, George Patterson > wrote:
> Doug Carter wrote:
>> In article <GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01>, George Patterson wrote:
>>
>>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>>I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing the
>>>>finger of blame everywhere except at their own chests.
>>>
>>>Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who
>>>fell down on they job.
>>
>> The Mayor and Governor should have admitted that they had not
>> prepared for a hurricane and were helpless *before* the hurricane..
>
> And what does that have to do with the argument that the locals are
> somehow responsible for the fact that the Federal government did not
> reinforce the levee system which it owns?
---end of Reference materials---

[Ash Wyllie]

Tom S. opined

>"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
>> Jay Honeck opined
>>
>>>> It was 1927 and Hoover wasn't even anyone's dark horse candidate for
>>>> nomination, by his party, in the next summer's presidential convention.
>>>>
>>>> When the devastating 1927 Mississippi River flood hit, he was the man
>>>> put
>>>> in
>>>> charge of the relief effort. His successful handling of the Mississippi
>>>> River flood relief program helped launch him into the White House the
>>>> following fall.
>>
>>>This is but one example of what Herbert Hoover did for this country -- and
>>>the world. He was, indeed, an amazing man who did many great things. His
>>>legacy has been sadly (and, largely, unavoidably) been burdened with the
>>>dark pall of the Great Depression occurring on his watch.
>>
>> HH could have blocked the Depression by vetoing the Smoot-Hawling tariffs.
>> Had he vetoed the 1932 income tax increase years would have been removed
>> from the Depression.
>>
>> Few presidents really screw up badly, fewer still twice in a single term.
>>
>Anyone who buys into the myth that Hoover caused the depression because he
>"did nothing" should read Murray Rothbard's "The Great Depression". Not only
>didn't Hoover do nothing, he did a great deal...all of it completely back
>asswards.

Or the late Jude Weneski's(sp?) /The Way the World Works./



-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[George Patterson]

Doug Carter wrote:
>
> There seems to be a bit of confusion here. You brought up levees,
> apparently in response to my assertion that the local and state
> governments clearly *did not* "...do everything they could..."

But the statement of mine to the effect that the locals did everything they
could was a statement about the levees; nothing else. Don't take it as a
springboard to discuss disaster response efforts; that makes it appear that I
said the locals did everything perfectly there. I did not say that.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-09-12, George Patterson > wrote:

> But the statement of mine to the effect that the locals did everything they
> could was a statement about the levees; nothing else. Don't take it as a
> springboard to discuss disaster response efforts; that makes it appear that I
> said the locals did everything perfectly there. I did not say that.

Fair enough. I have no intention of misquoting anyone.

Louisiana (per a 2003 study by Texas A&M) receives about $1.60 in various
forms of Federal largess for each $1.00 paid by its citizens in federal
tax.

If local officials (Sen. Landau, her brother the Lt. Governor, her
father the ex Mayor, et al.) can't snag enough money to keep New Orleans
from drowning then either they are, at best, ineffective or perhaps the
system of routing a third of the GNP through Washington is a really bad
idea. Or both?

[Andrew Gideon]

ThomasH wrote:

> Shocking.

Sarcasm? Eventually, it'll be a "problem". Then the local bosses will
"solve" this problem by bringing in some commercial interest (ie. a
casino).

That the problem was created by the boss boss will be lost in the midst of
time (ie. a week or so back for Chicago voters).

- Andrew

[Tom]

When did LA. and NO secede from the Union? Also, one might ask when these
folks stopped paying their taxes.

The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's citizens.

The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:YsNUe.321865$x96.51500@attbi_s72...
>> Again. The levees are owned by the Federal government, not the State.
>
> Again, who cares? It was up to the State of Louisiana to take care of New
> Orleans. More importantly, it was up to New Orleans to take care of New
> Orleans. Whether that meant paying for the improvements themselves, or
> applying political pressure to the Army Corps of Engineers, Congress, or
> Santa Claus, it should have been done BY THEM. I'm really, REALLY tired
> of New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except
> at their own chests.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-09-13, Tom > wrote:

> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's citizens.

Do you think the city and state governments have any responsibility to
protect their citizens? Should the Mayor be held accountable for not
following the city's emergency response plan and leaving the homeless to
drown rather than use the city buses to evacuate them?

> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.

The state of Louisiana takes about $1.60 from the Federal treasury for
each $1.00 its citizens pay in. Anyone have a list of what they spend
their (oops, I mean our) money on instead of protecting themselves?

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-09-13, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

>> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
>> citizens.
>>
>> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
>> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.
>>
>
> Right. The federal government had a responsibility to stop that hurricane.
> It should never have been allowed to make landfall.

They were going to stop it but Carl Rove interceded. After all, NO is a
Democrat stronghold.

Carl was, of course supported by Dick who wanted to make sure
Halliburton got another juicy contract. Unfortunately the Shaw Group got
a big contract as well but some allowances have to be made for their CEO
being the Democrat Party Chair of the state. Can't win them all :)

[sfb]

So, you must think all those folks in Mississippi and Alabama are so
much dog meat. NO might be all of 25% of the 6 or 7 million people
directly affected by Katrina. You might want find another news source
besides CNN and consider the challenge to bring relief to millions of
people in an area of devastation covering thousands of square miles.

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> When did LA. and NO secede from the Union? Also, one might ask when
> these folks stopped paying their taxes.
>
> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
> citizens.
>
> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.
>

[Wizard of Draws]

On 9/13/05 6:15 PM, in article , "Tom"
> wrote:

> When did LA. and NO secede from the Union? Also, one might ask when these
> folks stopped paying their taxes.
>
> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's citizens.
>
> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.
>

The federal government is the *third* layer of protection for the citizens
of LA. The local and state government are the first two. LA and NO take at
least 2/3's of the blame for any deaths related to Katrina.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Jay Honeck]

> So, you must think all those folks in Mississippi and Alabama are so much
> dog meat. NO might be all of 25% of the 6 or 7 million people directly
> affected by Katrina. You might want find another news source besides CNN
> and consider the challenge to bring relief to millions of people in an
> area of devastation covering thousands of square miles.

Why, when it's so much easier to just swallow the party line? Life
sucks -- it MUST be the gubmint's fault!

Honestly, I find it amazing that so many people are putting such credence in
the Federal Government ability to "rescue" them from disasters like Katrina.
Wake up, people! This is the same bureaucratic organization that brought
you the Post Office, Medicare, and the FAA!

Do you REALLY think that this group of unemployable misfits will suddenly
turn into icons of efficiency when intense pressure is applied to them?
Are you REALLY that naive?

But, again -- this is all beside the point of this thread. Arrest King
Daley!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[W P Dixon]

26th Jan, 1861.....one county/parish as they call them there did not secede
Winn Parish. The state is still occupied ;)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> When did LA. and NO secede from the Union? Also, one might ask when these
> folks stopped paying their taxes.
>
> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
> citizens.
>
> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.
>
>

[Tom]

Put your thinking cap on, and doff the dunce cap pal. The government, when
it takes taxes from people - enters into a contract with those people to
safeguard them and rescue them in times of disaster.

No one says the government is responsible for natural disasters, only that
the government must use the assets owned by the people to take care of them.

What a ditz you are.


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Tom" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> When did LA. and NO secede from the Union?
>>
>
> January 26th 1861
>
>
>>
>> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
>> citizens.
>>
>> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
>> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.
>>
>
> Right. The federal government had a responsibility to stop that
> hurricane. It should never have been allowed to make landfall.
>

[Tom]

Typical post from you. The people in need here probably aren't as well off
as you, and you (and your ilk here) figure that they brought all this stuff
on themselves.

The interesting thought here is though, most of you guys screech and whine
whenever the feds do anything that might impede your ability to fly, or land
or whatever. You usually claim that flying is a "right" as opposed to being
a "privilege" and don't think any regulation is necessary.

I don't expect the federal government to be able to dash into an area and
immediately rescue everyone, but I do expect them to be able to know where
the major problems lay in this disaster, the Astrodome and Convention Center
and do something about it within a reasonable amount of time.

As for the CNN crack, I listened to your boy O'Reilly on Fox be absolutely
shut down by another of your boys, Shepard Smith, when some guy was dying
next to him on a bridge and the "No Spin Zone" was being a Bush apologist.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cXJVe.328242$_o.151272@attbi_s71...
>> So, you must think all those folks in Mississippi and Alabama are so much
>> dog meat. NO might be all of 25% of the 6 or 7 million people directly
>> affected by Katrina. You might want find another news source besides CNN
>> and consider the challenge to bring relief to millions of people in an
>> area of devastation covering thousands of square miles.
>
> Why, when it's so much easier to just swallow the party line? Life
> sucks -- it MUST be the gubmint's fault!
>
> Honestly, I find it amazing that so many people are putting such credence
> in the Federal Government ability to "rescue" them from disasters like
> Katrina. Wake up, people! This is the same bureaucratic organization that
> brought you the Post Office, Medicare, and the FAA!
>
> Do you REALLY think that this group of unemployable misfits will suddenly
> turn into icons of efficiency when intense pressure is applied to them?
> Are you REALLY that naive?
>
> But, again -- this is all beside the point of this thread. Arrest King
> Daley!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
>
> Put your thinking cap on, and doff the dunce cap pal. The government, when
> it takes taxes from people - enters into a contract with those people to
> safeguard them and rescue them in times of disaster.
>
> No one says the government is responsible for natural disasters, only that
> the government must use the assets owned by the people to take care of
> them.
>
> What a ditz you are.
>

Why? I agreed with you. The federal government had a responsibility to
stop that hurricane. They should have launched the hurricane interceptors.
Katrina should have been turned back when she was still miles offshore.

[john smith]

> Put your thinking cap on, and doff the dunce cap pal. The government, when
> it takes taxes from people - enters into a contract with those people to
> safeguard them and rescue them in times of disaster.
> No one says the government is responsible for natural disasters, only that
> the government must use the assets owned by the people to take care of them.

Of course, that same government has the right to charge those that it
rescues for all costs associated with the rescue, too.

[LWG]

One thing I have learned from this thread is the appalling lack of
understanding of our federal system. If we are doomed, it is because of the
smirking ignorance of our citizens.

Les

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Tom" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> When did LA. and NO secede from the Union?
>>
>
> January 26th 1861
>
>
>>
>> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
>> citizens.
>>
>> The federal government owed it, I mean OWED it to the people of NO to
>> protect them and/or rescue them after the fact.
>>
>
> Right. The federal government had a responsibility to stop that
> hurricane. It should never have been allowed to make landfall.
>

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-09-14, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>
> "Tom" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Put your thinking cap on, and doff the dunce cap pal. The government, when
>> it takes taxes from people - enters into a contract with those people to
>> safeguard them and rescue them in times of disaster.
>>
>> No one says the government is responsible for natural disasters, only that
>> the government must use the assets owned by the people to take care of
>> them.
>>
>> What a ditz you are.
>>
>
> Why? I agreed with you. The federal government had a responsibility to
> stop that hurricane. They should have launched the hurricane interceptors.
> Katrina should have been turned back when she was still miles offshore.
>
>
I bet that damn hurricane violated the ADIZ!

[Tom S.]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> When did LA. and NO secede from the Union? Also, one might ask when these
> folks stopped paying their taxes.
>
> The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
> citizens.

From what?

[Tom S.]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> Typical post from you. The people in need here probably aren't as well off
> as you, and you (and your ilk here) figure that they brought all this
> stuff on themselves.

Typical of YOUR ilk that "charity" at gunpoint is moral.

>
> The interesting thought here is though, most of you guys screech and whine
> whenever the feds do anything that might impede your ability to fly, or
> land or whatever. You usually claim that flying is a "right" as opposed to
> being a "privilege" and don't think any regulation is necessary.

I think the only one in here who said flying is a right is Steve McNicholls.

>
> I don't expect the federal government to be able to dash into an area and
> immediately rescue everyone, but I do expect them to be able to know where
> the major problems lay in this disaster, the Astrodome and Convention
> Center and do something about it within a reasonable amount of time.

I have read and re-read the Constitution and can't find anything even
approaching "disaster relief".

Care to explain yourself before running off at the keyboard.


The other "Tom"

--
POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

[Tom S.]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> Put your thinking cap on, and doff the dunce cap pal. The government, when
> it takes taxes from people - enters into a contract with those people to
> safeguard them and rescue them in times of disaster.

It's got a contract (called a Constitution) before and regardless of taxes,
Pal.

>
> No one says the government is responsible for natural disasters, only that
> the government must use the assets owned by the people to take care of
> them.
>
> What a ditz you are.

So tell us, where in said contract/Constitution it says anything about
disaster relief.

(You really have a tendancy to stick your foot in your mouth)

[Tom S.]

"LWG" > wrote in message
...
> One thing I have learned from this thread is the appalling lack of
> understanding of our federal system. If we are doomed, it is because of
> the smirking ignorance of our citizens.
>

After several $$TRILLIONS spent on public schools?

[Dave Stadt]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> Put your thinking cap on, and doff the dunce cap pal. The government, when
> it takes taxes from people - enters into a contract with those people to
> safeguard them and rescue them in times of disaster.

You are correct. The people of NO got absolutely nothing for the city and
state taxes they pay. The mayor and governor sat around with their thumbs
up their butts while people were dying. Finally the feds had to step in and
do the job. Not that the feds didn't screw up some but at least they
finally got something done when the city and state could not.

If you look to the government to safeguard and protect you one thing is
guaranteed, you will be disappointed.

[Dave Stadt]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When did LA. and NO secede from the Union? Also, one might ask when
these
> > folks stopped paying their taxes.
> >
> > The only real purpose for a federal government is to protect it's
> > citizens.
>
> From what?


The real purpose of citizens is to protect themselves from government. He
had the words right just in the wrong order.

[Jay Honeck]

> The real purpose of citizens is to protect themselves from government. He
> had the words right just in the wrong order.

Amen, brother.

Funny how it ALWAYS comes back to this, isn't it? Half the populace
expects -- no, DEMANDS -- that the government take care of them. The other
half expects -- no, DEMANDS -- that the government stay the hell away from
them.

I do believe we've reached the bottom line explanation for the current 51/49
split in the country.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"