fuel subsidies for Angle Flight pilots

[sashley]

Angel Flight America is trying to raise $2 million to offset the cost
of fuel. Does anyone know how they propose to subsidize Angel Flight
missions? The problem, of course, is the rule regarding sharing
expenses. I suppose that if an Angel Flight pilot flies two passengers,
Angel Flight could pay two thirds of the cost on behalf of the
passengers, but the pilot would still have to pay his pro rata share.
Am I missing something here?

Stephen S. Ashley

[Peter Duniho]

"sashley" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Angel Flight America is trying to raise $2 million to offset the cost
> of fuel. Does anyone know how they propose to subsidize Angel Flight
> missions? The problem, of course, is the rule regarding sharing
> expenses. [...]

They would operate under the same rules they always have. Reimbursement for
charitable airlift purposes is allowed for Private Pilot certificate
holders.

Personally, I think Angel Flight ought to just ask Congress. I just read
that the airlines are asking for a $600 million handout, in the form of tax
relief, to compensate for increased fuel costs. What a crock. But I'll bet
Congress gives it to them anyway.

If commercial airlines, who can easily just pass the true cost of operation
to consumers, can get money then it seems to me that a charitable
organization like Angel Flight should have no trouble doing so. Of course,
that's not how Congress works...but it ought to be.

Pete

[Blanche Cohen]

Angel Flight America and the individual Angel Flight regional
organizations are 501(c)3 under US Tax Code. I have a copy of the
IRS determination letter for Angel Flight West (needed it last year
to negotiate some contracts).

[Jim Burns]

Angel Flights do not have to meet all the requirements of 61.113 relating to
pilot compensation as per:
FAA Order 8400.10, Vol 4, Chap. 5, Sect. 1, Para 1345 12/20/94
1345. FAA Policy Regarding "Compensation or Hire" Considerations

FOR CHARITABLE FLIGHTS OR LIFE FLIGHTS: Various organizations and pilots are
conducting flights that are characterized as "volunteer," "charity," or
"humanitarian." These flights are referred to by numerous generic names,
including "lifeline flights," "life flights," "mercy flights," and "angel
flights." These types of flights will be referred to as "life flights" in
this section.

A. Purposes for Life Flights. The types of organizations and pilots involved
with or conducting life flights vary greatly. The most common purpose of
life flights is to transport ill or injured persons who cannot financially
afford commercial transport to appropriate medical treatment facilities, or
to transport blood or human organs. Other "compassionate flights" include
transporting a child to visit with a dying relative, or transporting a dying
patient to return to the city of the patient's birth.

B. FAA Policy. The FAA's policy supports "truly humanitarian efforts" to
provide life flights to needy persons (including "compassionate flights").
This also includes flights involving the transfer of blood and human organs.
Since Congress has specifically provided for the tax deductibility of some
costs of charitable acts, the FAA will not treat charitable deductions of
such costs, standing alone, as constituting "compensation or hire" for the
purpose of enforcement of FAR 61.118 or FAR Part 135. Inspectors should not
treat the tax deductibility of costs as constituting "compensation or hire"
when the flights are conducted for humanitarian purposes.

[sashley]

As I read it, all that the quoted order says is that if I deduct from
my income tax as a charitable contribution the cost I incurred in
carrying out an Angel Flight, that deduction does not constitute
"compensation." It does not say that Angel Flight's REIMBURSEMENT of my
costs does not constitute "compensation."

[[email protected]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> If commercial airlines, who can easily just pass the true cost of operation
> to consumers,

If the airlines could easily pass on the true cost of operation there
wouldn't be so many in or on the verge of declaring bankruptcy.

-cwk.

[Jim Burns]

I don't see anywhere that Angel Flight is going to reimburse any pilot for
anything. They are asking for money to buy fuel. Will they donate that
fuel to the pilots that require it to complete Angel Flight missions? or
will they charge? If they donate the fuel for a flight, is the pilot's
operating expense for that flight simply reduced because he doesn't have to
purchase fuel? And because his normal expenses were reduced by an outside
source (not the passenger) could that normal cost reduction be construed as
recieveing compensation? I would assume that if the fuel is donated to the
pilot, then the pilot would have to reduce his charitable contribution
amount to cover only non fuel expenses for that specific flight.

Jim

[Robert M. Gary]

Civil Air Patrol allows reimb. for expenses. Their requirement is that
you cannot log the time unless you have your commerical. They have a
specific FAA waver though. (we have one for Angel Flight too but it
doesn't cover this)

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> If the airlines could easily pass on the true cost of operation there
> wouldn't be so many in or on the verge of declaring bankruptcy.

If the airlines would go bankrupt passing on the true cost of operation,
they don't deserve to be in business.

Conversely, if we as a society feel that airlines serve an important enough
part of our transportation infrastructure to justify government subsidies,
then the government ought to be regulating them as well (prices, I mean, and
other aspects of operation beyond what the FAA already does).

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> I presume that you'[re talking about 61.113 (d), but that
> requires that the "passengers make a donation to the
> organization" Does Angel Flight collect the money, give it
> to the passengers, and have them give it to the pilot? Do
> they also meet all the other 7 requirements, day VFR, etc.?

Teach me to answer an esoteric question like that without actually reviewing
the regulation.

I don't see anything that allows a Private Pilot to be reimbursed for
charitable operations, except search & rescue. The regulation simply allows
the Private Pilot to offer their services in what otherwise might be
considered a "holding out" situation.

Still, I think the core of my answer was still correct. Inasmuch as Angel
Flight has any sort of arrangement now that allows the pilots to be
reimbursed (and it's not clear to me how they could, except for Commercial
Pilot certificate holders), I don't see how raising money to help fund that
reimbursement would be a problem.

Though, on second thought: if they use the funds raised to subsidize fuel
sales somewhere, or to buy fuel in bulk, or otherwise reduce fuel costs
without directly contributing to the pilot's bank account, I think they
could be okay, even with Private Pilot certificate holders.

Pete

[Blanche Cohen]

RE: 61.113 line by line

61.113(d) charitable organization described in paragraph (d)(7)
yes, AF is one of those by 501(c)3
61.113(d)(1) 7 day advance notice
Don't quote me, but I'd be really surprised if we don't have a blanket
authorization.
61.113(d)(1)(i) signed letter from the sponsor...
Yup. Always
61.113(d)(1)(ii) [paraphrased ...] copies of pilot info
On file with AF before we're allowed to fly
61.113(d)(2) about airports
You betcha!
61.113(d)(4) & (5) airworthiness...
Again, required by AF
61.113(d)(6) Day VFR
This is new to me.Perhaps there's a different clause that applies. AFW does
not require IFR rating altho other AF regions either require or "strongly
suggest". Personally, I only fly day VFR altho the return (which is
not considered AF flight) is often at night
61.113(d)(7) IRS 501(c)3 or equivalent
Yup.

I find the next item interesting: 61.113(e) "...may be reimbursed for
operating expenses directly related to SAR...." Can this (has it been)
interpreted for AF flights for relocation? It certainly applies to CAP,
but as I understand it, CAP is under a completely different jurisdiction
and not subject to 61.113 at all. Doesn't CAP come under the
"Federal, State and Local Government" definition? Which means all bets
are off when discussing reimbursements.

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:43:55 -0500, Jim Burns wrote:

>I don't see anywhere that Angel Flight is going to reimburse any pilot for
>anything. They are asking for money to buy fuel. Will they donate that
>fuel to the pilots that require it to complete Angel Flight missions? or
>will they charge?

maybe they buy fuel at regular rate and sell it to their pilots for a
nominal fee and carry "the loss" (there is no loss, because the fuel or
money for fuel wsa donated).

#m

--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed,
most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we
come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

[Newps]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:43:55 -0500, Jim Burns wrote:
>
>
>>I don't see anywhere that Angel Flight is going to reimburse any pilot for
>>anything. They are asking for money to buy fuel. Will they donate that
>>fuel to the pilots that require it to complete Angel Flight missions? or
>>will they charge?
>
>
> maybe they buy fuel at regular rate and sell it to their pilots for a
> nominal fee and carry "the loss" (there is no loss, because the fuel or
> money for fuel wsa donated).
>

You won't see the pilots getting cheap or free fuel. That's what the
EAA used to do for Young Eagle flights and the FAA put a stop to that
about 5 years ago.

[Peter Duniho]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:2005091022000316807%bodhioneeightyeightjunkat macdotcom@junkjunk...
> Angel Flight pilots are not reimbursed, nor do their passengers share the
> cost of the flight. It is strictly a charitable act on the part of the
> pilot. The pilot may take a tax deduction equal to the cost of the flight.

Thank you for the information. Of course, it begs the question: just how
would Angel Flight subsidize fuel costs for the pilots, if those pilots are
not receiving money from Angel Flight?

[Marty Shapiro]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
:

> "Tom Fleischman" > wrote
> in message
> news:2005091022000316807%bodhioneeightyeightjunkat macdotcom@junkjunk...
>> Angel Flight pilots are not reimbursed, nor do their passengers share
>> the cost of the flight. It is strictly a charitable act on the part
>> of the pilot. The pilot may take a tax deduction equal to the cost of
>> the flight.
>
> Thank you for the information. Of course, it begs the question: just
> how would Angel Flight subsidize fuel costs for the pilots, if those
> pilots are not receiving money from Angel Flight?
>
>
>

All that would be needed is for Angel Flight to pay the FBO to give a
fuel discount to the pilot.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Blanche Cohen]

Marty Shapiro > wrote:
> All that would be needed is for Angel Flight to pay the FBO to give a
>fuel discount to the pilot.

Why? Most FBOs offer a discount for AF flights now. If the AF organization
were to provide an additional discount to the FBO, the paperwork and
overhead would be horrendous!

[Marty Shapiro]

(Blanche Cohen) wrote in
:

> Marty Shapiro > wrote:
>> All that would be needed is for Angel Flight to pay the FBO
>> to give a
>>fuel discount to the pilot.
>
> Why? Most FBOs offer a discount for AF flights now. If the AF
> organization were to provide an additional discount to the FBO, the
> paperwork and overhead would be horrendous!
>
>
>

Because it would avoid direct payment to the pilot, which is something
that the FAA might have a problem with.

One FBO I spoke to several years ago said that they keep track of the
total gallons they pump for Angel Flight. If they already have the data,
it is rather simple to send a copy off to Angel Flight for reimbursement of
the additional discount.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Peter Duniho]

"Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
...
> All that would be needed is for Angel Flight to pay the FBO to give a
> fuel discount to the pilot.

Let me rephrase:

Just how will Angel Flight subsidize fuel costs... ?

I'm aware of the various theoretical possibilities. What I really want to
know is how they actually plan to do it.

Pete