CAP gridding

[Robert M. Gary]

I'm supposed to learn about dividing my sectional chart into search
grids. I have several CAP on-line publications but none show an actual
sectional. Does anyone have an online, scanned example of a properly
done sectional chart?

-Robert

[Hotel 179]

--
Stephen F. Pearce
Foley, Alabama


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm supposed to learn about dividing my sectional chart into search
> grids. I have several CAP on-line publications but none show an actual
> sectional. Does anyone have an online, scanned example of a properly
> done sectional chart?
>
> -Robert
>

------------------------------reply-------------------------

Robert,

Are you looking here? http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5591

The CAP grid system handout explains it....unless your Squadron is using the
old system of numbered squares. The new system is much easier and you don't
have to spend any time drawing lines on the chart....just look for the
numbers in the lower right hand corner of the grid that you are assigned,
and that's all there is to it. It's a little trickier when they say XXXXab.
There's a handout for finding that one also.

Semper vi.,

Stephen

[Kevin Dunlevy]

The easy way to do gridding is to purchase gridded sectionals on line at:

http://www2.bitstream.net/~storius/gridded.html I bought several from here
for about $35 each. I laminated one set for mission base and kept the other
folded for used in the plane


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm supposed to learn about dividing my sectional chart into search
> grids. I have several CAP on-line publications but none show an actual
> sectional. Does anyone have an online, scanned example of a properly
> done sectional chart?
>
> -Robert
>

[Chris G.]

Hmm.... for $35/each, I can buy 4 regular sectionals, a pen, and a
straightedge. Then, I can mark them myself for nothing. Sorry, but
that's a LOT of money for a single chart that is going to be out of date
in about 6 months (or less).

Chris


Kevin Dunlevy wrote:
> The easy way to do gridding is to purchase gridded sectionals on line at:
>
> http://www2.bitstream.net/~storius/gridded.html I bought several from here
> for about $35 each. I laminated one set for mission base and kept the other
> folded for used in the plane
>
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>I'm supposed to learn about dividing my sectional chart into search
>>grids. I have several CAP on-line publications but none show an actual
>>sectional. Does anyone have an online, scanned example of a properly
>>done sectional chart?
>>
>>-Robert
>>
>
>
>

[Sylvain]

Chris G. wrote:
> Hmm.... for $35/each, I can buy 4 regular sectionals, a pen, and a
> straightedge. Then, I can mark them myself for nothing. Sorry, but
> that's a LOT of money for a single chart that is going to be out of date
> in about 6 months (or less).

the gridded charts you carry do not need to be current (i.e., do
not need to be the ones you are using for navigation), so you can keep
using them beyond the expiration date; now of course, mark them as
such to avoid confusion (and to avoid throwing them away by mistake
like I did recently while tidying up my flying gear :-))

--Sylvain

[Peter Duniho]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
...
> the gridded charts you carry do not need to be current

His point is still valid. What's so complicated about gridding that is
justifies spending nearly $30 additional just for a pre-gridded sectional?

[Hotel 179]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message >
> His point is still valid. What's so complicated about gridding that is
> justifies spending nearly $30 additional just for a pre-gridded sectional?


CAP has gone to a new system that does not use the numbered grids....

Semper vi.,

Stephen

[Sylvain]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> His point is still valid. What's so complicated about gridding that is
> justifies spending nearly $30 additional just for a pre-gridded sectional?

depends on how much you value your time; same reason why I
call a plumber or bring my car to the mechanics or have
someone else kill my food, etc. things which I could very
well do myself, but don't bother doing. Call me lazy if
you must :-)

--Sylvain

[Peter Duniho]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
...
> depends on how much you value your time

You must get paid VERY well to justify spending $30 for what appears to be 5
minutes work.

[Robert M. Gary]

Our squadron still requires old style gridding. Perhaps its just a
right-of-passage. :(

-Robert

[Hotel 179]

--

"Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in message > Our squadron still requires old style gridding. Perhaps
> its just a
> right-of-passage. :(
>
> -Robert
>

Well, there you have it....when I was taught to grid charts, we would draw
the lines with a straight-edge and a "sharpie" but only label the grids on
the extreme left hand side of the chart....you then cut down on the amount
of writing on the chart which gives it a cleaner look. But....that was then.

Have you noticed the de-brief on the back of the CAPF-104? You list the
"grids searched" using the new method. It's good to know how things used to
be, but CAP once used little yellow planes....don't see many of those at the
missions that I fly these days.

Semper vi.,

Stephen

[Robert M. Gary]

Having just finished, I think I would buy the pre-gridded if I were to
do it again. It look me about 1.5 hours to do it. My time is worth much
more than that (I could have been billing clients during that time).
However, that was the first time I had ever even seen a gridded
sectional so I was trying to put it together from reading the CAP
manual. It probably would have been easier if I'd actually seen a
gridded chart before.

-Robert

[Peter Duniho]

oups.com...> Having just
finished, I think I would buy the pre-gridded if I were to
> do it again. It look me about 1.5 hours to do it.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what it is about the gridding
that takes so much time.

Granted, no one has any real reason to care whether I understand or not, and
maybe that's why the people who apparently ought to know have been skirting
the issue. "Not my problem, go away". But the best description I've seen
so far involves drawing a grid, and writing some numbers. A straight-edge,
a ruler (or plotter), and a writing implement, and nowhere near 1.5 hours of
time are all I can see.

Why did it take you 1.5 hours to draw some lines?

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

For me it was a combination of learning how to do it while doing it and
trying to draw long lines with a 12" ruler. There are also a LOT of
grids. On the SF sectional it was something like 500 all told if you
miss one, the entire chart is messed up. Sometimes hunting for the
little 5 tick mark on the lat/long lines took some time when lining up
the ruler because the feds seem to put the tick marks in the background
anytime there is anything else interesting in the area. The sectional
is broken up with large marks for every 10 degrees but CAP uses the
much smaller 5 degree marks to split 30 degrees into two 15 degree
sections. I'm told that CAP is slowly moving to a new method that does
not require gridding. In truth the whole idea seems very silly and
error prone. Rather than assign grid numbers to sectionals, it makes
more sense to refer to the lat/long of the grid. That is basically what
the new method is.

-Robert

[Hotel 179]

--

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> For me it was a combination of learning how to do it while doing it and
> trying to draw long lines with a 12" ruler. There are also a LOT of
> grids. > -Robert
>

Robert and All,

You should use a Scientific Wild-Assed Guess (SWAG) method for gridding.
Draw the lines on the lat/long marks.....eye-ball the half-way, then half
that. The grid sizes are 7.5 x 7.5 and can be divided smaller if needed.
Number ONLY the outside grids on the far left....if you need to find grid
number 32, go to grid 25 on the far left and count east for 7 grids.

In a situation where aircraft are working adjacent grids, the planners will
make an effort to have the aircraft work in the same direction so that both
creep east (or any heading) and thus avoid coming near each other at the
grid edges....If you are the mission pilot, one of your jobs is to make your
turns so that you remain within the confines of your assigned grid(s).

Once you get the hang of it, a sectional can be marked in about 10
minutes....the best thing is to come into the modern era and use the new
system.....no sharpie needed!

Semper vi,

Stephen

[Peter Duniho]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> For me it was a combination of learning how to do it while doing it and
> trying to draw long lines with a 12" ruler.

Okay, so how about using a yardstick instead? One time purchase
significantly less than $30.

> There are also a LOT of grids.

Grids? Or lines?

> On the SF sectional it was something like 500 all told if you
> miss one, the entire chart is messed up. Sometimes hunting for the
> little 5 tick mark on the lat/long lines took some time when lining up
> the ruler because the feds seem to put the tick marks in the background
> anytime there is anything else interesting in the area

That's definitely true...I've had problems in the past where the lat/long
ticks aren't even visible because of other stuff on the chart. But I could
always refer to adjacent lines to find the correct position.

> The sectional
> is broken up with large marks for every 10 degrees but CAP uses the
> much smaller 5 degree marks to split 30 degrees into two 15 degree
> sections.

Degrees? Or minutes? Is the main problem that the sectional has 10 degree
intervals, while the CAP grids use 15 degree intervals? Or is it simply the
sheer number of lines? Why does missing a line mess the whole chart up? If
the other lines are on their correct locations, couldn't you just add the
missing line?

> I'm told that CAP is slowly moving to a new method that does
> not require gridding. In truth the whole idea seems very silly and
> error prone. Rather than assign grid numbers to sectionals, it makes
> more sense to refer to the lat/long of the grid. That is basically what
> the new method is.

I guess I'm still not getting it. I suspect this is one of those "a picture
is worth one thousand words" situations. If only someone had a picture they
could show me, I suspect all would be clear to me.

Anyway, thanks for trying.

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

> The grid sizes are 7.5 x 7.5 and can be divided smaller if needed

Actually, aren't they marked in 15 minute intervals. The 7.5's are not
typically marked but are the ABCD regions of a 15 minute area?? Do you
actually draw the 7.5 minute lines too and mark each grid ABCD???
i..e grid 425A
-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> Okay, so how about using a yardstick instead?

Probably two issues. First, I didn't have one last night. :) Second,
the lines are not really that straight. The horizontal lines bow down
in the middle of the chart.

>But I could always refer to adjacent lines to find the correct position.

Sometimes that worked. Remember 12" ruler. :) It takes a few minutes to
hunt around looking for the line that is clear. Sometimes you don't
find one w/i 12"s.

> Grids? Or lines?

Both. The lines were part of the work. Numbering 500 grids also takes
time though.You can't just go straight through because if you get one
off, they'll all be off. You'll want to find a reference (usually an
index that tells you what the first grid for each row is) to verify
before begining each row. Add to that ensuring that you don't number a
grid that you shouldn't (partial grids on the sides aren't numbered,
some are pretty close to not being partial though) and handling overlap
of sectionals and its a bit more work.

If someone walked up to me, asked me to work the LA sectional area
(I've not done LA) and offered to have me sit down and grid one or hand
me a professional looking one for $30, I'd pull out the $30. They also
probably use better ink. I used dark brown which shows up well on water
but not so well in the mountains.

-Robert

[Hotel 179]

"Robert M. Gary" >
> Actually, aren't they marked in 15 minute intervals. The 7.5's are not
> typically marked but are the ABCD regions of a 15 minute area?? Do you
> actually draw the 7.5 minute lines too and mark each grid ABCD???
> i..e grid 425A
> -Robert
>

Robert,

You are right....I shouldn't be typing stuff so early in the morning. I
don't use gridded charts anymore, but when I did it was as I described
before....I'd number the outside edge and count across to the grid that I
needed.

Pete....sorry to not express the units....minutes is the answer. As you
described in your question, I'd use a yard stick and zip down and across the
sectional with a sharpie. Split those and you have the 15 minute by 15
minute grids. Begin the numbering in the upper left-hand corner and count
to the east for 24 grids (I think that's about right). There is a
publication that lists the numbers of grids on the different sectionals.

The system now is much simpler in that you use the existing lat/long lines
and name the grid by the lower right hand corner lat/long intersection. As
with anything else, the more you work with it the easier it is to
manipulate.

V/r,

Stephen

Stephen

[Peter Duniho]

"Hotel 179" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Pete....sorry to not express the units....minutes is the answer. As you
> described in your question, I'd use a yard stick and zip down and across
> the sectional with a sharpie. Split those and you have the 15 minute by
> 15 minute grids. Begin the numbering in the upper left-hand corner and
> count to the east for 24 grids (I think that's about right). There is a
> publication that lists the numbers of grids on the different sectionals.

So, if I understand correctly...

The grid is simply lines drawn at 15 minute intervals latitude and
longitude, with each box in the grid labeled starting from the first
complete box found on the sectional in the upper left corner?

I get 34 boxes across for the Seattle sectional, by 20 boxes down. More
importantly, as I think someone else did point out, the lines aren't
actually straight across. You can use a yardstick, but it has to be
adjusted as you progress across the chart, at least for the horizontal
lines. It's theoretically only 54 lines, but I can see how that could jump
to almost 700 lines if you're doing the horizontal ones one box at a time.

That curved line bit, assuming the pre-gridded charts line up perfectly with
the projection used for the sectional, is probably the real sticker in terms
of value of the $35 per chart cost. Thank you for those with the patience
to keep trying to explain it to me. :)

Pete

[Hotel 179]

> Pete said:
> So, if I understand correctly...
>
> The grid is simply lines drawn at 15 minute intervals latitude and
> longitude, with each box in the grid labeled starting from the first
> complete box found on the sectional in the upper left corner?
>
> I get 34 boxes across for the Seattle sectional, by 20 boxes down.

Pete,

That's pretty close...the problem comes when you get to the overlap in
sectionals. The same piece of real estate would potentially have two grid
numbers associated with it, depending upon which sectional you were using.
For example....here in Alabama we may be on the New Orleans or the Atlanta
sectional. There's a rule for assigning grid numbers for those
"over-lapped" grids. This is one of the reasons that the gridding system is
confusing, at least not crystal clear, for you must keep your grid
conversion sheet handy.

With the "new" system, the grid is named by the lat/long on the lower
right-hand corner of the degree intersection. The quadrants of the total
grid are still referred to as "A-B-C-D" and those can be further broken down
into "Aa, Ab, Ac, Ad....." That gets you down to the 7.5 minute squares.

Stephen