avionics fraud on ebay

[Zulu]

A friend told me he was looking for a handheld GPS on ebay and found a guy
selling Garmin 396 handhelds for $500. This friend emailed the seller
asking how he could sell a new in the box $2500 unit for $500. The seller
replied in broken english with a bunch of mish mash that he just opened an
electronics company in Europe and that if you send $500 by western union
right now then he'll make you this great deal. Beware out there. If it
sounds too good to be true.....

[Ben Hallert]

There was someone offering super cheap (I think $5000-7000) Garmin 430s
on barnstormers.com a few months ago. The description made it sound
borderline plausible (eg, they described that the reason they were so
cheap was that they were sold internationally, and did not have US
plates, etc etc) but subsequent fraud warnings that popped up on the
website made it sound as if there was a problem.

Avionics have gotta be an attractive target since there's such a price
premium attached.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL

[John T]

A some signs of online frauds:
1) outside US or Canada, usually europe.
2) Western union only
3) price too good to be true
4) approved bidders only, esp. with a low feedback rating
5) After the auction ends and you aren't a winner, you get contacted
back channel asking if you'd still be intrested cause the winner backed
out for whatever reason. They'll ask you for what you'd like to pay, and
they usually "relucantly" accept it cause a family member in Germany (or
whatever) was in an accident, and they need the money ASAP, and please
send it WU to the "victim" to pay the hospital.
6) they may claim they have bought the remaining stock of a "going out
of business" store, usually in europe (a former eastern bloc country is
even better), and are just clearing the stuff out.

John

[Ron Natalie]

Zulu wrote:
> A friend told me he was looking for a handheld GPS on ebay and found a guy
> selling Garmin 396 handhelds for $500.

Never ever pay for anything via Western Union wire transfer. Both EBAY
and Western Union warn you about this. Western Union is only for
sending money to people you know.

[sfb]

The best way to pay on eBay is a USPS money order sent via USPS so you
can sic the postal inspectors on them. There was a draft letter to
floating around the Internet spelling out chapter and verse of the mail
fraud Federal laws. The idea was stapling the money order to the letter
so the seller would be warned.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Zulu wrote:
>> A friend told me he was looking for a handheld GPS on ebay and found
>> a guy
>> selling Garmin 396 handhelds for $500.
>
> Never ever pay for anything via Western Union wire transfer. Both
> EBAY
> and Western Union warn you about this. Western Union is only for
> sending money to people you know.
>

[Steve Foley]

I don't see postal inspectors hunting down someone on Europe for $500. I use
paypal. I got stiffed once, and got my money back from Paypal.

"sfb" > wrote in message news:zbiYe.3955$yN1.1645@trnddc03...
> The best way to pay on eBay is a USPS money order sent via USPS so you
> can sic the postal inspectors on them. There was a draft letter to
> floating around the Internet spelling out chapter and verse of the mail
> fraud Federal laws. The idea was stapling the money order to the letter
> so the seller would be warned.
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Zulu wrote:
> >> A friend told me he was looking for a handheld GPS on ebay and found
> >> a guy
> >> selling Garmin 396 handhelds for $500.
> >
> > Never ever pay for anything via Western Union wire transfer. Both
> > EBAY
> > and Western Union warn you about this. Western Union is only for
> > sending money to people you know.
> >
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

sfb wrote:
> The best way to pay on eBay is a USPS money order sent via USPS so you
> can sic the postal inspectors on them.

No, the best way is to use PayPal funded by a credit card. You can get
a direct refund from PayPal (if they can recover it from the seller) or
from your credit card company if that doesn't work.

[sfb]

Not all Paypal transactions are protected.

"Transactions Covered by PayPal Buyer Protection

The PayPal Buyer Protection icon must be displayed in the Seller
Information box on eBay"

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/pbp-info-outside

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:cUiYe.9616$LV5.5352@trndny02...
>I don't see postal inspectors hunting down someone on Europe for $500.
>I use
> paypal. I got stiffed once, and got my money back from Paypal.
>
> "sfb" > wrote in message
> news:zbiYe.3955$yN1.1645@trnddc03...
>> The best way to pay on eBay is a USPS money order sent via USPS so
>> you
>> can sic the postal inspectors on them. There was a draft letter to
>> floating around the Internet spelling out chapter and verse of the
>> mail
>> fraud Federal laws. The idea was stapling the money order to the
>> letter
>> so the seller would be warned.
>>
>> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Zulu wrote:
>> >> A friend told me he was looking for a handheld GPS on ebay and
>> >> found
>> >> a guy
>> >> selling Garmin 396 handhelds for $500.
>> >
>> > Never ever pay for anything via Western Union wire transfer. Both
>> > EBAY
>> > and Western Union warn you about this. Western Union is only for
>> > sending money to people you know.
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[sfb]

Paypal lacks law enforcement authority and the protection plan does not
apply to all transactions.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/pbp-info-outside#eligibility

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> sfb wrote:
>> The best way to pay on eBay is a USPS money order sent via USPS so
>> you can sic the postal inspectors on them.
>
> No, the best way is to use PayPal funded by a credit card. You can
> get
> a direct refund from PayPal (if they can recover it from the seller)
> or
> from your credit card company if that doesn't work.

[George Patterson]

sfb wrote:
> Paypal lacks law enforcement authority ...

So does the USPS if the destination is outside the U.S..

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Ron Natalie]

sfb wrote:
> Not all Paypal transactions are protected.
>
> "Transactions Covered by PayPal Buyer Protection
>
> The PayPal Buyer Protection icon must be displayed in the Seller
> Information box on eBay"
>
You didn't pay attention to what I said.

First you go to PayPal. If they turn you down (or can't recover
the money) you go to your credit card. This is the way the
game works on ebay. Check the EBAY discussion boards that is
the advice you will be unconditionally given.

The PO may go after your seller if he violates the mail fraud
but if you're interest is in recovering your money the fastest
and most assured way, a PAYPAL funded by Credit Card is the
easiest way.

[Ron Natalie]

sfb wrote:
> Paypal lacks law enforcement authority and the protection plan does not
> apply to all transactions.
>
They don't need law enforcement. Law enforcement is lousy on getting
retribution. Credit cards are your best bet on the Internet, and
backing your paypal payment with a credit card will get your money
back even if PayPal won't honor the buyer protection plan.

[Friedrich Ostertag]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> sfb wrote:
>
>> Paypal lacks law enforcement authority and the protection plan does
>> not apply to all transactions.
>>
> They don't need law enforcement. Law enforcement is lousy on getting
> retribution. Credit cards are your best bet on the Internet, and
> backing your paypal payment with a credit card will get your money
> back even if PayPal won't honor the buyer protection plan.

Can you explain how you get your credit card company to refund your
money, if you officially authorized Paypal to draw from your CC account?

regards,
Friedrich

--
for personal email please remove 'entfernen' from my adress

[Ron Natalie]

Friedrich Ostertag wrote:

>
> Can you explain how you get your credit card company to refund your
> money, if you officially authorized Paypal to draw from your CC account?

It's simple, you call your credit card company and say the merchandise
was never delivered. If you do this before you give paypal a chance
to resolve it through there channels, paypal will lock your account.
However, if they turn you down and you file for a chargeback through
your credit card company they will let it slide. If they can they will
still charge back the sellers (this is why paypal tends to be a bit
on the dangerous side for sellers).

There was some stickiness between American Express and Paypal a bit
over a year ago, but that was settled.

[Matt Barrow]

"sfb" > wrote in message news:zbiYe.3955$yN1.1645@trnddc03...
> The best way to pay on eBay is a USPS money order sent via USPS so you can
> sic the postal inspectors on them. There was a draft letter to floating
> around the Internet spelling out chapter and verse of the mail fraud
> Federal laws.

>The idea was stapling the money order to the letter so the seller would be
>warned.

Like they didn't already know?

Also, China, Russia, Brazil and others are supporting many fraudulent
activities (that's right, they are sanctioning these activties), so don't
expect any asistance from their governments in the event you get ripped off.




--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:8mjYe.13851$T55.12480@trndny06...
> sfb wrote:
>> Paypal lacks law enforcement authority ...
>
> So does the USPS if the destination is outside the U.S..
>
And in certain countries, the government is probably a participant to the
fraud, not a means of adjudication of complaints.

[Greg Copeland]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:11:22 +0200, Friedrich Ostertag wrote:

> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> sfb wrote:
>>
>>> Paypal lacks law enforcement authority and the protection plan does
>>> not apply to all transactions.
>>>
>> They don't need law enforcement. Law enforcement is lousy on getting
>> retribution. Credit cards are your best bet on the Internet, and
>> backing your paypal payment with a credit card will get your money back
>> even if PayPal won't honor the buyer protection plan.
>
> Can you explain how you get your credit card company to refund your
> money, if you officially authorized Paypal to draw from your CC account?
>
>
It's called a "charge back". Anytime you purchase something with your
credit card and do not receive either the services or goods you expected
and the merchant refuses to refund your money, you can do a charge back.
If merchants experience a high number of charge backs, the percent they
pay per transaction goes up. They don't like that. Likewise, if they
continue to get many charge backs, processing banks tend to drop the
merchant. Merchants don't like that either.

It's basically in the Merchant's best interest to refund your money;
especially if you tell them you'll be starting charge back procedures. If
that still doesn't get them to move, call the card issuing bank that you
did your transaction with. The number is on the back of your card. Tell
them the merchant has been unwilling to resolve the complaint and you want
to start a charge back procedure. A large number of disputes are resolved
with the help of the issuing bank without actually having to do a charge
back. Once the bank gets involved, the merchants tend to get a lot more
friendly. Also, charge backs almost alway go in favor of the card holder,
especially for Amex members. Amex is very friendly to its card holders
and unless the merchant can show really good cause to prevent a charge
back, Amex almost always supports their card members versus the merchant.

In case you can't tell, I used to work in the credit card industry. ;)
Using your credit card for online purchases is, by far, the most powerful
protection you have...just make sure you're not giving out your credit
card information to the wrong people! And never give it out over
the phone unless *you* initate the call!

Greg

[Greg Copeland]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:11:22 +0200, Friedrich Ostertag wrote:

> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> sfb wrote:
>>
>>> Paypal lacks law enforcement authority and the protection plan does
>>> not apply to all transactions.
>>>
>> They don't need law enforcement. Law enforcement is lousy on getting
>> retribution. Credit cards are your best bet on the Internet, and
>> backing your paypal payment with a credit card will get your money
>> back even if PayPal won't honor the buyer protection plan.
>
> Can you explain how you get your credit card company to refund your
> money, if you officially authorized Paypal to draw from your CC account?
>
> regards,
> Friedrich

Oh ya! NEVER, EVER, NEVER, purchase online with your debit credit card!
Many people have been put into real bad positions when they found out
their $150.00 online purchase wiped out their $20,000 bank account. When
the bank checks into it, they find the merchant has closed their
account and skipped town. Also, some banks do NOT offer the same
protection to their debit cards that they extend to credit cards! Which
can make recovery even more painful and prolonged....compounded with
bounced checks and no means to get cash in hand (except credit card cash
advance).

Greg

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Greg Copeland wrote:
> Oh ya! NEVER, EVER, NEVER, purchase online with your debit credit card!
> Many people have been put into real bad positions when they found out
> their $150.00 online purchase wiped out their $20,000 bank account. When
> the bank checks into it, they find the merchant has closed their
> account and skipped town. Also, some banks do NOT offer the same
> protection to their debit cards that they extend to credit cards! Which
> can make recovery even more painful and prolonged....compounded with
> bounced checks and no means to get cash in hand (except credit card cash
> advance).



I doin't purchase *anything* with my debit card anyway. The only reason I have
one is to get cash out of an ATM. For everything else, there's MasterCard. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[George Patterson]

Greg Copeland wrote:

> Oh ya! NEVER, EVER, NEVER, purchase online with your debit credit card!

I call mine my "ATM card", since that's all I ever use it for.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:z8BYe.16452$Zg5.3421@trndny05...
> Greg Copeland wrote:
>
> > Oh ya! NEVER, EVER, NEVER, purchase online with your debit credit card!
>
> I call mine my "ATM card", since that's all I ever use it for.

You don't use it at the grocery store?

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> You don't use it at the grocery store?

No. I have a credit card for purchases.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Greg Copeland]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:01:12 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:z8BYe.16452$Zg5.3421@trndny05...
>> Greg Copeland wrote:
>>
>> > Oh ya! NEVER, EVER, NEVER, purchase online with your debit credit card!
>>
>> I call mine my "ATM card", since that's all I ever use it for.
>
> You don't use it at the grocery store?

That's fine. I'm referring to online purchases. You would only want to
use it in situations where you trust that fraud is not a likely situation.
Accidents have happened where is has taken weeks to get straightened out.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't think that type of accident were common place.
Just use your head and caution.

Greg

[Peter Duniho]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:7CBYe.7638$N35.2890@trndny09...
>> You don't use it at the grocery store?
>
> No. I have a credit card for purchases.

Even if you did use it at the grocery store, assuming you *didn't* use it as
if it were a credit card (ie, you entered your PIN), there's not any risk.

The risk comes in when the Visa card number is used for the transaction,
because that number provides an unsecured path straight into your bank
account, without any fraud protection.

Used in the same manner as if at an ATM, one's debit card should be just as
secure as if used at the ATM (keeping in mind there are still potentials for
fraud there).

Pete

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:7CBYe.7638$N35.2890@trndny09...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> You don't use it at the grocery store?
>
> No. I have a credit card for purchases.
>

I'd think you didn't use credit cards for general purposes.

I hit ATM's about twice a year and only use the ATM debit card instead of a
check.

Also, grocery stores around here only started taking CC's in the past few
months.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Greg Copeland" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:01:12 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>
>> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
>> news:z8BYe.16452$Zg5.3421@trndny05...
>>> Greg Copeland wrote:
>>>
>>> > Oh ya! NEVER, EVER, NEVER, purchase online with your debit credit
>>> > card!
>>>
>>> I call mine my "ATM card", since that's all I ever use it for.
>>
>> You don't use it at the grocery store?
>
> That's fine. I'm referring to online purchases. You would only want to
> use it in situations where you trust that fraud is not a likely situation.
> Accidents have happened where is has taken weeks to get straightened out.
> Nonetheless, I wouldn't think that type of accident were common place.
> Just use your head and caution.
>
For online transactions I'd only use a CC...even with merchants I've done
business with for a long time (Amazon,etc).


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> I'd think you didn't use credit cards for general purposes.

I put about everything except gas for the truck on VISA.

> Also, grocery stores around here only started taking CC's in the past few
> months.

They've been taking them here for something like 15 years.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:ycKYe.20293$265.6540@trndny07...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> I'd think you didn't use credit cards for general purposes.
>
> I put about everything except gas for the truck on VISA.
>
>> Also, grocery stores around here only started taking CC's in the past few
>> months.
>
> They've been taking them here for something like 15 years.

Around here they've taken debit cards for said 15 years, but only recently
have they taken CC's.

I just can't get my arms around using a CC for small purchases done
face-to-face.

[Walter Murray]

"Zulu" > wrote in message
...
> The seller
> replied in broken english with a bunch of mish mash that he just opened an
> electronics company in Europe and that if you send $500 by western union
> right now then he'll make you this great deal. Beware out there. If it
> sounds too good to be true.....

Just fantasizing a little about what might be next ...

I got this confidential e-mail from the widow of the late Nigerian Minister
of Aviation, and she's looking for someone to assist her in getting his
Garmin 396 out of the country, and ... :-)

Walter




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[Blanche]

Anyone see last Sunday's comics? Sorry, can't remember the strip,
but it was a spoof of the Nigerian emails.