Pilot nearly crashes in IMC, Controller helps

[pimenthal]

Hello All!
I've been hunting high and low for an audio file. Came across it a few
years ago. It's an actual audio file of a controller or FSS giving the
pilot instructions to recover from a stall? spin? The pilot flew into
IMC became disoriented, asked for assistance and panicked. All the
while the controller helped him to recover the AC. The pilot was close
enough to the ground that he saw the top of a radio tower on the way
down. Quite chilling to listen to, but I can't find the file anymore.
Any one know and could post the link or file?
Thanks!!
Pim

[Me]

This was posted a few days ago (last week?) in one of the newsgroups i
read. Either rec.avaition.student or rec.aviation.pilot or
rec.aviation.uk

I listened to it. Where an american pilot basically thinks he's about
to die but the controller tells him to push his control column forward
saving his life. There was then an interview with the airtraffic
control service and pilot about the event.

The audio file highlighted the work of the american air traffic
control service, so it might be on their website. I'm in the uk and
don't know much about who is responsible for that. The FAA?

I'll have a look around. Someone must have seen the post.

Me

On 24 Sep 2005 12:53:59 -0700, "pimenthal" >
wrote:

>Hello All!
>I've been hunting high and low for an audio file. Came across it a few
>years ago. It's an actual audio file of a controller or FSS giving the
>pilot instructions to recover from a stall? spin? The pilot flew into
>IMC became disoriented, asked for assistance and panicked. All the
>while the controller helped him to recover the AC. The pilot was close
>enough to the ground that he saw the top of a radio tower on the way
>down. Quite chilling to listen to, but I can't find the file anymore.
>Any one know and could post the link or file?
>Thanks!!
>Pim

[Me]

Here you go. I amaze myself sometimes.

http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3

Me

On 24 Sep 2005 12:53:59 -0700, "pimenthal" >
wrote:

>Hello All!
>I've been hunting high and low for an audio file. Came across it a few
>years ago. It's an actual audio file of a controller or FSS giving the
>pilot instructions to recover from a stall? spin? The pilot flew into
>IMC became disoriented, asked for assistance and panicked. All the
>while the controller helped him to recover the AC. The pilot was close
>enough to the ground that he saw the top of a radio tower on the way
>down. Quite chilling to listen to, but I can't find the file anymore.
>Any one know and could post the link or file?
>Thanks!!
>Pim

[pimenthal]

Me wrote:
> Here you go. I amaze myself sometimes.
>
> http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
>
> Me

Thanks, you ARE amazing!
Pim

[Jay Honeck]

>> http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3

For future reference, and the benefit of all, I have added this amazing
audio file to our aviation video website. See/hear it (and many more) at:

http://alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

Nothing illustrates stark terror and panic better than that tape, IMHO.
It's absolutely chilling.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:03:21 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>For future reference, and the benefit of all, I have added this amazing
>audio file to our aviation video website. See/hear it (and many more) at:
>
>http://alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

The page itself is a good idea (though I wouldn't connect/link it with/to
my business website), but you might run into legal troubles someday. You
are stealing from other people.

see the bottom of the mainpage of the last file you added:
http://www.naats.org/
---snip
All content © NAATS, 2000-2005.

All rights are reserved. No material may be reproduced electronically or in
print without written permission from the National Association of Air
Traffic Specialists
11303 Amherst Ave, Suite 4
Wheaton, MD 20902
(301) 933-6228 - Fax (301) 933-3902
---snap

Whatever you argue. It *IS* illegal (or do you have written permission?).
And you were told so before.

Only linking to the ressources might be a solution, and it saves you
bandwidth (yeah, I know, you don't have to pay for it).

#m

--
Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:03:21 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> For future reference, and the benefit of all, I have added this amazing
>> audio file to our aviation video website. See/hear it (and many more) at:
>>
>> http://alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm
>
> The page itself is a good idea (though I wouldn't connect/link it with/to
> my business website), but you might run into legal troubles someday. You
> are stealing from other people.


I got in some hot water for having "Pimping for Dummies" on my website. The
"for Dummies" series people got upset and threatened my ISP. My ISP told me to
remove it and I did... end of story. It had stayed up for probably three years
before they became aware of it... and I have no idea how they did.

In any case, leave it up until somebody insists you take it down. I doubt
rather seriously there will ever be any repercussion.

And it is an absolutely amazing tape. I've never heard such terror in someone's
voice before. Do you think he quit flying after that or went for instrument
training?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Me]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:23:44 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> wrote:


>
>And it is an absolutely amazing tape. I've never heard such terror in someone's
>voice before. Do you think he quit flying after that or went for instrument
>training?

He probably headed staright for the toilet or for a lie down.

Me

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:23:44 GMT, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

>> The page itself is a good idea (though I wouldn't connect/link it with/to
>> my business website), but you might run into legal troubles someday. You
>> are stealing from other people.
>
>
>I got in some hot water for having "Pimping for Dummies" on my website. The
>"for Dummies" series people got upset and threatened my ISP. My ISP told me to
>remove it and I did... end of story.

they were kind enough to not sue you.

>It had stayed up for probably three years
>before they became aware of it... and I have no idea how they did.

eg: <http://www.google.com/search?q=%22for+Dummies%22>

>In any case, leave it up until somebody insists you take it down. I doubt
>rather seriously there will ever be any repercussion.

it might be too late if you face payment of $$$$.

>And it is an absolutely amazing tape. I've never heard such terror in someone's
>voice before. Do you think he quit flying after that or went for instrument
>training?

he for sure chenged his pants :-)

#m

--
Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html>

[john smith]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> http://www.naats.org/

The tapes are public domain.

[john smith]

> And it is an absolutely amazing tape. I've never heard such terror in
> someone's voice before. Do you think he quit flying after that or
> went for instrument training?

When it first came out, I listened to it and thought, "This is a put on,
nobody would say those things." Then again, I thought about some of the
things I have read on this group, an I have to admit it is possibly
true. :-O

[Flyingmonk]

>Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.

Such a black and white world we live in. No shades of grey, no
colors... just black and white. What few choices...

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:54:14 GMT, john smith wrote:

>> http://www.naats.org/
>
>The tapes are public domain.

I haven't found a source for the tapes beeing in the public domain.
Besides: this was also a general argument for Jay's site.

#m

--
Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html>

[john smith]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:54:14 GMT, john smith wrote:
>
> >> http://www.naats.org/
> >
> >The tapes are public domain.
>
> I haven't found a source for the tapes beeing in the public domain.
> Besides: this was also a general argument for Jay's site.

FOIA, you have to request them.

[Jay Honeck]

> The page itself is a good idea (though I wouldn't connect/link it with/to
> my business website), but you might run into legal troubles someday. You
> are stealing from other people.
>
> see the bottom of the mainpage of the last file you added:
> http://www.naats.org/
> ---snip
> All content © NAATS, 2000-2005.

Thanks, Martin -- I hadn't actually noticed that.

Of course, I'm not sure why they wouldn't want it on our webpage -- more
ears hearing it HELPS their cause.

Remember, the whole reason for the existence of this remarkable tape is to
make the point that FAA briefers are better at saving lives than Lockheed
employees will ever be. Whether you buy that argument or not, the NAATS
clearly wants more pilots to hear this tape.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> >Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
>
> Such a black and white world we live in. No shades of grey, no
> colors... just black and white. What few choices...

Of course, I know I don't need to remind you that it is the terrorists
themselves who have cast the battle in such stark terms.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Remember, the whole reason for the existence of this remarkable tape is to
> make the point that FAA briefers are better at saving lives than Lockheed
> employees will ever be. Whether you buy that argument or not, the NAATS
> clearly wants more pilots to hear this tape.

My oh my. Well, it's certainly educational in the tradition of those
"blood on the highway" drivers ed movies. As for what it says about
NAATS' people, I don't doubt they're dedicated public servants, but
let's not get carried away here.

-cwk.

[Flyingmonk]

>Of course, I know I don't need to remind you that it is the terrorists themselves who
>have cast the battle in such stark terms.

No Jay, I don't need that reminder. I don't, however, think that who
started it matters. I just don't need to pick sides when I know that
neither side is doing the right thing.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Of course, I'm not sure why they wouldn't want it on our webpage -- more
> ears hearing it HELPS their cause.

In that case, they'll be happy to give you their permission to use it and you'll
be legal.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Casey Wilson]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Martin Hotze > wrote:
>
>> http://www.naats.org/
>
> The tapes are public domain.

Hmmmm, I wonder what "All content © NAATS, 2000-2005" means?

Actually I don't wonder at all, I deal with copyright every day. It
means the entire contents of the NAATS site are copyrighted to them and NOT
in the public domain. To pluck something off that site and apply it to
anything other than personal use (like putting on your own website and
making it accessible to the public) is an infringement of the copyright.
On the other hand, if you go to the government funded source you can
very often find the same material not under copyright -- that is, in the
public domain. The United States Government is prohibited from applying
copyright because the US citizens paid for it with their taxes. Since they
are not germane to this specific topic, we won't get into classifed material
or freedom of information act at this point.
NAATS's copyright applies because the material is not in the original
form. I won't belabor that point other than to say your public library can
provide you with yards of literary legalisms.

Regards,

Casey Wilson
Freelance Writer and Photographer
[owner of a few thousand copyrighted items -- some even registered with the
Library of Congree]

[john smith]

> NAATS's copyright applies because the material is not in the original
> form. I won't belabor that point other than to say your public library can
> provide you with yards of literary legalisms.

But if it in the public domain, fair use doctrine applies, does it not?

[Jay Honeck]

> To pluck something off that site and apply it to anything other than
> personal use (like putting on your own website and making it accessible to
> the public) is an infringement of the copyright.

While I agree 100%, I would think that NAATS would be looking at *intent*
here, not just "copyright infringement."

Since we're on their side, and clearly doing them a service by hosting the
audio tape, I'm wondering what kind of fool in NAATS would be *against* us
providing access to the tape, free of charge, for pilots to hear?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> While I agree 100%, I would think that NAATS would be looking at *intent*
> here, not just "copyright infringement."

Then why don't you ask them?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jay Honeck]

>> While I agree 100%, I would think that NAATS would be looking at *intent*
>> here, not just "copyright infringement."
>
> Then why don't you ask them?

I believe I shall.

Anyone here got a contact inside NAATS?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

wrote)
[snip]
> My oh my. Well, it's certainly educational in the tradition of those
> "blood on the highway" drivers ed movies.


http://www.cinemaweb.com/highwaysafety/
"Did they fail to see the stop sign, or choose to ignore it?"

It's on my Christmas 'wish list' ...so was the Albuquerque Balloon Festival
this year (starts in 5 days) but that didn't happen either. <g>

<pout, pout> ...next year.

http://www.aibf.org/


Montblack

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:5QDZe.402556$xm3.358001@attbi_s21...
>> >Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
>>
>> Such a black and white world we live in. No shades of grey, no
>> colors... just black and white. What few choices...
>
> Of course, I know I don't need to remind you that it is the terrorists
> themselves who have cast the battle in such stark terms.

And any situation in life, broken down properly, can be cast in black or
white.

[Jay Honeck]

> http://www.cinemaweb.com/highwaysafety/
> "Did they fail to see the stop sign, or choose to ignore it?"

I remember that film! Scared the bejeesus out of me!

(Which was probably a very good thing...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Casey Wilson]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> NAATS's copyright applies because the material is not in the original
>> form. I won't belabor that point other than to say your public library
>> can
>> provide you with yards of literary legalisms.
>
> But if it in the public domain, fair use doctrine applies, does it not?

The doctrine of fair use is limited, however. For example, a radio station
may use only a 20-second "sound bite" of a song without having to pay the
royalty fee through ASCAP. I don't know what NAATS might consider fair use.

[Casey Wilson]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:UyJZe.367672$_o.212589@attbi_s71...
>> To pluck something off that site and apply it to anything other than
>> personal use (like putting on your own website and making it accessible
>> to the public) is an infringement of the copyright.
>
> While I agree 100%, I would think that NAATS would be looking at *intent*
> here, not just "copyright infringement."
>
> Since we're on their side, and clearly doing them a service by hosting the
> audio tape, I'm wondering what kind of fool in NAATS would be *against* us
> providing access to the tape, free of charge, for pilots to hear?
> --
I doubt any -- especially if you give them or their website a plug.
I've been very successful at sending an email to organizations and
requesting permission to use their stuff, especially when I say I will
attribute the material to them and include their URL. I don't remember
anyone ever turning it down. In this case I'd look for a hint of "media
relations" and send them a query. Otherwise, send it to the highest official
identifiable on the website or send it to the webmaster with a request to
forward if he doesn't want to give the permission.
My original challenge was to the statement that "public domain"
applied to the site.

Casey

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> I remember that film! Scared the bejeesus out of me!

Were you able to play it from that site, or do you have to buy it to see it?
--
Jim in NC

[cjcampbell]

"Pilot nearly crashes in IMC, Controller helps"

Is that anything like "Patient is at death's door, doctor hopes to pull
him through?"

[Jay Honeck]

>> I remember that film! Scared the bejeesus out of me!
>
> Were you able to play it from that site, or do you have to buy it to see
> it?

Looks like you have to buy it.

Blech...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

On 24 Sep 2005 12:53:59 -0700, "pimenthal" >
wrote:

>The pilot flew into
>IMC became disoriented, asked for assistance and panicked. All the
>while the controller helped him to recover the AC. The pilot was close
>enough to the ground that he saw the top of a radio tower on the way
>down.

Much as I'd like to think that FSS helped this guy recover, my
interpretation of the tape is that they at most pointed him in the
direction of VFR conditions, after he'd recovered on his own.

He lost control of his airplane while in IMC and did not recover until
he actually saw the ground (the tower he mentions). I know FSS was
advising him to push the controls forward, then haul it back, but by
then he was in the act of recovery because he had fallen through the
cloud cover and could see the ground.

For the first few moments of contact FSS tried to identify the guy and
find out where he was and what was happening. The poor slob was
terrified and had no idea where he was at that time.

When he was back in control, FSS worked hard at finding him a
direction in which to fly that would get him back into VFR conditions,
but he had to fly the 172 there, in the clouds. So having recovered
from his spiral, he now had to climb back into the clouds and maintain
his heading to get into VFR. He was VERY grateful for the assistance,
which is obvious when you listen to him speaking to FSS after he'd
landed and was now checking on conditions in which to continue his
cross country. The guy clearly understood that he REALLY lucked out
this time.

Corky Scott