Arrow Starter Problem

[[email protected]]

Writing for a friend with an Arrow that is having a recurring starter
problem. The battery has been charged and tested, everything else checks
out, and there is the right amount of voltage at the starter. It works
once or twice (in a row), then if left overnight, it won't restart (no
response from starter whatsoever). The starter has been replaced three
times with the same result -- starts right up on the first few tries,
but next day, it won't restart.

Anyone else experience this?
Thanks in advance.

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
...
> [...] The starter has been replaced three
> times with the same result -- starts right up on the first few tries,
> but next day, it won't restart.

Well, first of all, you'll get better responses in the r.a.owning newsgroup.

Secondly, THREE new starters? Someone's got a thick skull.

Thirdly, in spite of the the "testing" of the batteries, the problem sure
sounds like a battery problem to me. With all that replacing of the
starter, did it occur to anyone to put a brand new battery in the plane? Or
to try starting with an auxiliary power supply?

If the battery does check out, then it seems to me you've got some more
testing to do:

* First of all, after the supposedly bad starter has been removed, has
it been tested? If the airplane is actually breaking starters, you'd
probably want to know that before putting more starters in the airplane.

* If the starter that was removed checks out okay after removal, and a
new battery doesn't help, then it seems to me that there is probably some
sort of electrical problem, and the messing around with the starter is
enough to wiggle something so that it works, for a little while. What that
could be, I don't know. What I do know is that whoever is working on this
airplane right now probably ought to hand the job over to someone qualified.
They obviously aren't.

Pete

[Tauno Voipio]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>[...] The starter has been replaced three
>>times with the same result -- starts right up on the first few tries,
>>but next day, it won't restart.
>
>
> Well, first of all, you'll get better responses in the r.a.owning newsgroup.
>
> Secondly, THREE new starters? Someone's got a thick skull.
>
> Thirdly, in spite of the the "testing" of the batteries, the problem sure
> sounds like a battery problem to me. With all that replacing of the
> starter, did it occur to anyone to put a brand new battery in the plane? Or
> to try starting with an auxiliary power supply?
>
> If the battery does check out, then it seems to me you've got some more
> testing to do:
>
> * First of all, after the supposedly bad starter has been removed, has
> it been tested? If the airplane is actually breaking starters, you'd
> probably want to know that before putting more starters in the airplane.
>
> * If the starter that was removed checks out okay after removal, and a
> new battery doesn't help, then it seems to me that there is probably some
> sort of electrical problem, and the messing around with the starter is
> enough to wiggle something so that it works, for a little while. What that
> could be, I don't know. What I do know is that whoever is working on this
> airplane right now probably ought to hand the job over to someone qualified.
> They obviously aren't.
>

The cabling between the battery and the starter should be checked.

There are different engines with different starters on Arrows.
I assume that this is the garden-variety 4-cylinder Lycoming
with a starter using a Bendix device. The Bendix needs a sturdy
current surge to get the gear initially moving into mesh. Often
the starter not meshing is the first symptom of a flat battery.

The main power relay or cabling seems to be suspect here.

The strarter on my Arrow (Continental 6 cylinder) is a different
beast with an internal spiral drive gearbox.

--

Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:20:12 -0700, wrote:

>Writing for a friend with an Arrow that is having a recurring starter
>problem. The battery has been charged and tested, everything else checks
>out, and there is the right amount of voltage at the starter. It works
>once or twice (in a row), then if left overnight, it won't restart (no
>response from starter whatsoever). The starter has been replaced three
>times with the same result -- starts right up on the first few tries,
>but next day, it won't restart.
>
>Anyone else experience this?
>Thanks in advance.


Was the voltage at the starter checked while the engine was cranking?
Was the voltage at the starter checked when the starter was not responding?

Were the starters examined after they failed to function (bench test) to
see WHY they malfunctioned?



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Seth Masia]

Agree with these posts. A likely culprit is the cabling, or specifically
corrosion in the cabling, from battery to engine compartment.

If there's plenty of voltage on the first few starts, and then the starter
won't turn, you've probably got a drain on the electrical system that's
bringing the battery down. Check for shorts or continuity through anything
that's not on the master switch -- panel clock? Gear motor?

My Comanche was running the battery down and we finally traced it to a
faulty microswitch in the landing gear -- the gear motor wasn't turning off
at the end of the gear travel, so it was pulling current even with the rotor
parked.

Remember that motors are less efficient when hot -- so your starter motor
will draw more current on a hot start even though the oil is thin.

Onward.

Seth
N8100R

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:20:12 -0700, wrote:
>
>>Writing for a friend with an Arrow that is having a recurring starter
>>problem. The battery has been charged and tested, everything else checks
>>out, and there is the right amount of voltage at the starter. It works
>>once or twice (in a row), then if left overnight, it won't restart (no
>>response from starter whatsoever). The starter has been replaced three
>>times with the same result -- starts right up on the first few tries,
>>but next day, it won't restart.
>>
>>Anyone else experience this?
>>Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Was the voltage at the starter checked while the engine was cranking?
> Was the voltage at the starter checked when the starter was not
> responding?
>
> Were the starters examined after they failed to function (bench test) to
> see WHY they malfunctioned?
>
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Skywise]

wrote in news:Xmnushal8y-B83186.09201227092005
@news.west.cox.net:

> Writing for a friend with an Arrow that is having a recurring starter
> problem. The battery has been charged and tested, everything else checks
> out, and there is the right amount of voltage at the starter. It works
> once or twice (in a row), then if left overnight, it won't restart (no
> response from starter whatsoever). The starter has been replaced three
> times with the same result -- starts right up on the first few tries,
> but next day, it won't restart.
>
> Anyone else experience this?
> Thanks in advance.

Everyone elses responses are reminding me of a problem I had
with my motorcycle once that was somewhat similar. Turned out
to be the ground cable from the battery. Corrosion in one end
crimp allowed some juice to turn on the electrical but once I
hit the starter everything went dark. Push starting would
start the bike and it would run fine.

The battery was not getting recharged but after a while it
would rebuild enough to turn on the basics but would never
turn the starter.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[[email protected]]

"Seth Masia" > wrote:
> If there's plenty of voltage on the first few starts, and then the starter
> won't turn, you've probably got a drain on the electrical system that's
> bringing the battery down.

But everything else fed by the battery works just fine, even the next
day when the starter doesn't respond at all.

I don't know *all* the particulars, just thought someone may have had a
similar experience. The initial starter was bench-tested fine, put back
in, started a few times, then after a day, no response. Replaced with
"gear starter" with same results (initial start-up successful but no
response 24 hours later). Again, everything else tested and run by the
battery during preflight works fine.

> Remember that motors are less efficient when hot -- so
> your starter motor will draw more current on a hot start
> even though the oil is thin.

Both successful and failing start-ups were done first thing in the
morning, after the airplane was parked all night.

Thanks to all for responding.

[Montblack]

("Skywise" wrote)
> Everyone elses responses are reminding me of a problem I had
> with my motorcycle once that was somewhat similar. Turned out
> to be the ground cable from the battery. Corrosion in one end
> crimp allowed some juice to turn on the electrical but once I
> hit the starter everything went dark. Push starting would
> start the bike and it would run fine.


If the course can be passed with a score of 65% or better on the final
test - mail me my certificate.

Q 7 Blah, blah, blah...
A 7 Check the ground

Q 8 Blah, blah, blah...
A 8 Check the ground

Q 9 Blah, blah, blah...
A 9 Check the ground(s)
[Trick question, with more than one ground points to check]

Q 10 Blah, blah, blah...
A 10 Polarity?
WRONG - Check the ground!


Montblack
'It's all I know, but I do it well.'

[Denny]

ground, scmround... Obviously Montblack, you don't know enough to be a
mechan'nic... A real mechan'nic KNOWS that you have to change the
starter <again>... jeez, wise up, guy...

denny

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:10:12 -0700, wrote:

>But everything else fed by the battery works just fine, even the next
>day when the starter doesn't respond at all.

The starter is the heaviest, single draw that you have on the battery. It
would not be unusual for it not to be able to draw enough power, perhaps a
combination of sub optimal battery charge level, sub-optimal cabling and/or
connections, and still be able to run other electrical components.

The fact that the starter works OK on the bench after malfunctioning in the
a/c points to a another issue.

For example, a bad starter solenoid may work intermittently. A bad
ignition switch may fail to make the contact to close the solenoid.

If the problem is either of the above, you should hear nothing (no starter
solenoid click) and there should be zero voltage at the starter wires
during the instances when it malfunctions.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Montblack]

("Denny" wrote)
> ground, scmround... Obviously Montblack, you don't know enough to be a
> mechan'nic... A real mechan'nic KNOWS that you have to change the
> starter <again>... jeez, wise up, guy...


"Diagnostic-By-Replacement"

I forgot about that one.


Montblack

[Morgans]

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ground, scmround... Obviously Montblack, you don't know enough to be a
> mechan'nic... A real mechan'nic KNOWS that you have to change the
> starter <again>... jeez, wise up, guy...

I have replaced a starter in a car with a new rebuilt starter, only to find
that it had a problem. Just my kind of luck, I guess...
--
Jim in NC