RV-12 LSA

[Smitty Two]

All this talk about pricing, and speculation about Van's -- now I open
my new issue of the RV-ator newsletter and read that they're working on
on the RV-12. OK, so it's not a production unit - you still will have to
build it yourself. But, it's going to be a genuine LSA, with 2-place
side by side cockpit, Rotax engine, the handling qualities that Dick
insists on, and easy construction with a minimum of parts and a minimum
of special tools required. Oh yeah - removable wings. Did someone else
mention this and I missed it?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:18:22 -0700, Smitty Two > wrote:

>All this talk about pricing, and speculation about Van's -- now I open
>my new issue of the RV-ator newsletter and read that they're working on
>on the RV-12. OK, so it's not a production unit - you still will have to
>build it yourself. But, it's going to be a genuine LSA, with 2-place
>side by side cockpit, Rotax engine, the handling qualities that Dick
>insists on, and easy construction with a minimum of parts and a minimum
>of special tools required. Oh yeah - removable wings. Did someone else
>mention this and I missed it?

Yep.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm

That was from a spring issue of the RVator, and there had been talk before that.

Of course, the REAL seer of the RAH crowd is John Ousterhout:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D21C122EB

Note the date of the posting.... :-)

Ron "I hold, in my hand, the last envelope...." Wanttaja

[Montblack]

("Ron Wanttaja" wrote)
[snip]
> Yep.
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm


Back in production ...with pre drilled holes!
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-3per.htm
Check out the RV-3(B)

RV-3 (single seat) is LSA ...oooops, except that it flies too darn fast.

Solution: Small diesel?
Who cares about weight penalty at this point. We're trying to slow the thing
down plus we've got much weight to give (well, some of us anyway).

Would a 65-75 hp diesel, swinging a (quiet) 3 bladed wooden prop, get us
down to LSA 125 mph -138 mph, while keeping us under 1,320 lbs for a Gross
Weight? I think it would.

If it's anything like that (135 hp x 2) Diamond D42 Twin Star burning
*under* 3 gallons/hour/side at 42% power - cruising at 175 mph ground speed
[Diamond website] ...

...I'm guessing that my (LSA) Diesel RV-3B's fuel burn will be in the sub
2.0 gallons/hr range.

(More weight savings)
10 gallons = 70 lbs diesel = 5 hours = 650 miles (130 mph)
6 gallons = 42 lbs diesel = 3 hours = 400 miles (133 mph)

So, now we wait on the RV-3B's diesel engine.

2 place RV-12? No thanks. I'll wait.


Montblack
Removable wings on the RV-12 is nice. A single 19-ft RV-3B wing would fit in
most garages, plus it's as long as the fuselage - for the trailer. Might be
too heavy for one person to handle though. <dolly wheels>

[John T.]

Gee...that looks JUST like the zenair 601XL quick build kit...

John

[Jim Carriere]

John T. wrote:
> Gee...that looks JUST like the zenair 601XL quick build kit...

The same thought crossed my mind, not only for superficial things
like the layout and engine but details like choice of pulled rivets.

Similar technology + similar problems = similar solutions. Sort of a
recurring theme in aviation.

[Mike Gaskins]

Kinda, but then again the previous RV's looked pretty similar to a
601XL too. The RV does not have the all-flying rudder of the 601
though, and if it follows previous pricing models, it will likeley come
pre-drilled and at a lower cost than the Zenith quick-build kit. I'm a
big fan of the Zenith; I've got a plan set and have *kinda* started
scratchbuilding (I sawy *kinda* b/c the only part I've got fabricated
so far is the rudder horn :)), but the RV-12 info almost makes me want
to wait a bit on progressing too far.

[ET]

Jim Carriere > wrote in news:194f$433d7660
:

> John T. wrote:
>> Gee...that looks JUST like the zenair 601XL quick build kit...
>
> The same thought crossed my mind, not only for superficial things
> like the layout and engine but details like choice of pulled rivets.
>
> Similar technology + similar problems = similar solutions. Sort of a
> recurring theme in aviation.

Yup, the RV-12 will look like a cross between the 601 & a Sonex... With
good reason <grin>. I wonder about the cg issues with the rear mounted
fuel tank though (although obviously I trust Van to work that out...)

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Jim Carriere]

ET wrote:

> Jim Carriere > wrote in news:194f$433d7660
> :
>
>
>>John T. wrote:
>>
>>>Gee...that looks JUST like the zenair 601XL quick build kit...
>>
>>The same thought crossed my mind, not only for superficial things
>>like the layout and engine but details like choice of pulled rivets.
>>
>>Similar technology + similar problems = similar solutions. Sort of a
>>recurring theme in aviation.
>
>
> Yup, the RV-12 will look like a cross between the 601 & a Sonex... With
> good reason <grin>. I wonder about the cg issues with the rear mounted
> fuel tank though (although obviously I trust Van to work that out...)

It can be done. Katanas have a rear gas tank, and IIRC you can spin
them in the utility category. I'm talking about the 912 powered
version (lightweight engine doesn't help aft cg).

I think the 601 and Sonex both have an advantage in simplicity of
construction, although I bet that Vans is putting in a lot of
development work in that area before the RV-12 is made available. I
mean that in the sense that Vans' repuatation and track record to
date indicate that the RV-12 won't be a half-hearted design.

Tangent... it'd be great if the RV-12 could be flown with the canopy
open :)

[Morgans]

"ET" > wrote

> I wonder about the cg issues with the rear mounted
> fuel tank though (although obviously I trust Van to work that out...)

Van's spiel said that the cockpit is well forward of his other designs, with
the seat being in front of the main spar, instead of on top of it. With the
fuel tank just behind the seats, that would put it only slightly behind the
CG, so any weight changes during fuel burn would be small, due to such a
short moment arm of the tank's contents. That is what it sounds like to me,
anyway.
--
Jim in NC

[Ernest Christley]

Morgans wrote:
> "ET" > wrote
>
>
>>I wonder about the cg issues with the rear mounted
>>fuel tank though (although obviously I trust Van to work that out...)
>
>
> Van's spiel said that the cockpit is well forward of his other designs, with
> the seat being in front of the main spar, instead of on top of it. With the
> fuel tank just behind the seats, that would put it only slightly behind the
> CG, so any weight changes during fuel burn would be small, due to such a
> short moment arm of the tank's contents. That is what it sounds like to me,
> anyway.

The Delta has the fuel tank in approximately the same configuration.
The downside is that pitch trim will drift somewhat as fuel is burned
off. This can be controlled somewhat by the fuel tank design...shaping
the tank so that it is larger in the rear than the front. The CG of the
tank moves aft as fuel is burned off. It's not a fix, only an
improvement over a square tank.

The upside is a greatly simplified fuel system. With only one tank, you
can throw out a handful of valves and fittings. And you'll never have
fuel starvation with a full tank on the other side.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Mark Hickey]

"Mike Gaskins" > wrote:

>Kinda, but then again the previous RV's looked pretty similar to a
>601XL too. The RV does not have the all-flying rudder of the 601
>though, and if it follows previous pricing models, it will likeley come
>pre-drilled and at a lower cost than the Zenith quick-build kit. I'm a
>big fan of the Zenith; I've got a plan set and have *kinda* started
>scratchbuilding (I sawy *kinda* b/c the only part I've got fabricated
>so far is the rudder horn :)), but the RV-12 info almost makes me want
>to wait a bit on progressing too far.

Hey, don't slow down that tremendous progress...

Mark "do you use a rudder horn to warn other planes when you're
backing up" Hickey