Shotgun Starts

[Dick]

Was talking with some WW2 guys who remembered the use of 10 gauge shotgun
shells to start an aircraft engine. I've seen several movies showing
something but my question is how did it work? shell in seperate cylinder
from pistons and how push crank over, etc??

[Lakeview Bill]

From what I have read, the output of the firing mechanism, which was really
only a large column of moving air, was fed directly into one of the existing
cylinders.

If you can get your hands on a copy of the original version of "The Flight
of the Phoenix", there's a scene where Jimmy Stewart (who had been a B-24
bomber pilot in WWII), is trying to start a cobbled-together aircraft with a
shotgun starter. He only has a limited number of shells; naturally, it
starts on the last one.

BTW: Did you know that ejection seats were once powered by cannon shells?



"Dick" > wrote in message
t...
> Was talking with some WW2 guys who remembered the use of 10 gauge shotgun
> shells to start an aircraft engine. I've seen several movies showing
> something but my question is how did it work? shell in seperate cylinder
> from pistons and how push crank over, etc??
>
>

[wright1902glider]

Dick wrote:
> Was talking with some WW2 guys who remembered the use of 10 gauge shotgun
> shells to start an aircraft engine. I've seen several movies showing
> something but my question is how did it work? shell in seperate cylinder
> from pistons and how push crank over, etc??


Its called a Kauffmann (sp?) starter. The blast turns a turbine thats
geared in to the crankshaft somehow. See the movie Flight of the
Phoenix... the original w/ Jimmy Stuart, not the gawd-aweful remake.

Harry

[Robert Bates]

Is it an inertia type starter? I've never seen one but I always assumed
that it was like the air start on the M14P.



"wright1902glider" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Dick wrote:
> > Was talking with some WW2 guys who remembered the use of 10 gauge
shotgun
> > shells to start an aircraft engine. I've seen several movies showing
> > something but my question is how did it work? shell in seperate cylinder
> > from pistons and how push crank over, etc??
>
>
> Its called a Kauffmann (sp?) starter. The blast turns a turbine thats
> geared in to the crankshaft somehow. See the movie Flight of the
> Phoenix... the original w/ Jimmy Stuart, not the gawd-aweful remake.
>
> Harry
>

[J. Severyn]

Try this link for info:
http://www.sjvls.org/bens/bf010cs.htm

J. Severyn
KLVK

"Dick" > wrote in message
t...
> Was talking with some WW2 guys who remembered the use of 10 gauge shotgun
> shells to start an aircraft engine. I've seen several movies showing
> something but my question is how did it work? shell in seperate cylinder
> from pistons and how push crank over, etc??
>

[Accessory Section 8]

It's a Coffman, or Eclipse starter. Gun gases spun a wheel, which
could also be spun by hand or foot treadle, an electric motor, or other
means in some versions.

They were not totally unique to aircraft, a few were used in military
vehicles and other oddball applications.

They were generally junked and replaced by direct drive electric
starters when they became available.

Cartridge start was also used on jets. Various bombers and fighters
have had cartridge start, as did some civilian aircraft. Boeing 727s
sometimes had cartridge start on the center engine (don't ask me how I
know...) so the aircraft could start if it diverted to a field with no
start cart. You had one shot, then you called out the recovery team. I
think United had a Lear for things like that, otherwise, another
revenue aircraft had to be internal-chartered, if no other airline had
a maintenance presence on field.

[Flyingmonk]

Cool, I knew/heard about these cartridge starters, now I know about the
third engine on the 727.

Thanks for the additional info.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[jmk]

>> Cartridge start was also used on jets.

The British Camberra used them. It's a high altitude spy plane that we
licensed the design for, so that we could turn it into the U-2. One of
the changes we made was to get rid of the cartridge start, because the
huge mass of black smoke was considered "not high tech."

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
"jmk" > wrote:

> >> Cartridge start was also used on jets.
>
> The British Camberra used them. It's a high altitude spy plane that we
> licensed the design for, so that we could turn it into the U-2. One of
> the changes we made was to get rid of the cartridge start, because the
> huge mass of black smoke was considered "not high tech."

Canberra and U-2 were totally separate aircraft! U-2 was a
single-engine, indigenous Lockheed design, based on high-performance
sailplanes of the day.

Canberra was a twin-engined British design for a high-altitude bomber.
The Martin Co. modified the Canberra into the B-57; the special
reconnaisance aircraft was the "RB-57D/E," which looked somewhat like
the B-57, but with much longer wings and different engines.

[[email protected]]

I understand that the U2 was based on the F104 Starfighter.

Seemed unlikely to me too but then I compared the Fuselages.

[Bret Ludwig]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
<<snip>>

>
> Canberra was a twin-engined British design for a high-altitude bomber.
> The Martin Co. modified the Canberra into the B-57; the special
> reconnaisance aircraft was the "RB-57D/E," which looked somewhat like
> the B-57, but with much longer wings and different engines.

That's because it was a B-57 with much longer wings and different
engines. Actually there were two variants: one had four engines, two
monsters and two auxilliary engines IIRC.

[Bret Ludwig]

wrote:
> I understand that the U2 was based on the F104 Starfighter.
>
> Seemed unlikely to me too but then I compared the Fuselages.

That was the original concept, but the production U-2 has zero
commonality with the 104. A completely different and much lighter fuse.

[jmk]

First off, you are right. Don't know where I got THAT confused. We
worked on a TR-3 NASA aircraft (nothing to do with the "new" TR-3
triangle aircraft). back in the late 70's, which was also a variant.

FWIW, did find a picture of a Canberra starting up.


http://www.ramm.shacknet.nu/robant/airshow/Kemble03/Canberra%20restart%20to%20leave.JPG

[Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired]

jmk wrote:
> First off, you are right. Don't know where I got THAT confused. We
> worked on a TR-3 NASA aircraft (nothing to do with the "new" TR-3
> triangle aircraft). back in the late 70's, which was also a variant.
>
> FWIW, did find a picture of a Canberra starting up.
>
>
> http://www.ramm.shacknet.nu/robant/airshow/Kemble03/Canberra%20restart%20to%20leave.JPG
>

The first time I ever saw a cart start up close was an F-4E in a tab
V shelter, I never could remember what tab V stood for, and was quite
impressed. Just before start we vacated the tab V and watched from
outside. A jet of flame and smoke appeared under the left engine and
within a couple of seconds the shelter filled up with dense black smoke
which obscured everything from the cockpits on back. When the engine was
up and running the smoke cleared in a couple of seconds.

One thing I wish I could see would be a B-52 cart starting all eight
engines at once.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Big John]

Lakeview Bill

Yep.

37mm.

Used to have one as a desk ornament.

I rode the training tower at Willie using these shells. All the jet
Pilots and students had to ride tahe ejection training tower.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:35:40 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
> wrote:

>From what I have read, the output of the firing mechanism, which was really
>only a large column of moving air, was fed directly into one of the existing
>cylinders.
>
>If you can get your hands on a copy of the original version of "The Flight
>of the Phoenix", there's a scene where Jimmy Stewart (who had been a B-24
>bomber pilot in WWII), is trying to start a cobbled-together aircraft with a
>shotgun starter. He only has a limited number of shells; naturally, it
>starts on the last one.
>
>BTW: Did you know that ejection seats were once powered by cannon shells?
>
>
>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
t...
>> Was talking with some WW2 guys who remembered the use of 10 gauge shotgun
>> shells to start an aircraft engine. I've seen several movies showing
>> something but my question is how did it work? shell in seperate cylinder
>> from pistons and how push crank over, etc??
>>
>>
>