Drilling holes in steel tubing

[wright1902glider]

Hello everyone,

I'm back in the shop again with a new problem. That is, how to drill
accurate holes on-center through steel tubing.

I need to attach 2 short lengths of 1/2" EMT tubing parallel to the top
tube of a bicycle frame, one on each side. The EMT tubes will extend
about 20" forward of the bike frame. The frame tube is about 1" dia. I
want to drill horizontally through all 3 tubes and attach everything
with a pair of #10 machine screws.

Prob. is how to drill the holes on center so everything lines up. I
have both a drill press and cordless drills at my disposal.

Suggestions? Methods? Tools?

Thanx,
Harry
Wright Brothers Bike Guru
Wright 1902 glider
Wright 1899 kite

[LCT Paintball]

I would cut a couple chunks of 2X4 and clamp them to the frame and both bars
at the same time. If you don't have a centerdrill, use a punch to insure
your drill starts in the right place. Then you can clamp the whole thing
down to your drill press table.

--
"Don't be misled, bad company corrupts good character."
www.LCTPaintball.com
www.LCTProducts.com


"wright1902glider" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm back in the shop again with a new problem. That is, how to drill
> accurate holes on-center through steel tubing.
>
> I need to attach 2 short lengths of 1/2" EMT tubing parallel to the top
> tube of a bicycle frame, one on each side. The EMT tubes will extend
> about 20" forward of the bike frame. The frame tube is about 1" dia. I
> want to drill horizontally through all 3 tubes and attach everything
> with a pair of #10 machine screws.
>
> Prob. is how to drill the holes on center so everything lines up. I
> have both a drill press and cordless drills at my disposal.
>
> Suggestions? Methods? Tools?
>
> Thanx,
> Harry
> Wright Brothers Bike Guru
> Wright 1902 glider
> Wright 1899 kite
>

[[email protected]]

Find two pieces of angle iron. Weld, bolt, glue, or tape together -
one up and one down. Set on the drill press and center the "V" section
under the spindle using the smallest drill bit you have. Clamp in
place. Just drop the EMT into the "V" and drill away. You can use the
welded seam to keep the holes at each end in phase. Do the same for
the bicycle frame or use the drilled EMT for a drilling jig.

If you drill first with an 1/8" bit and bolt together using 8-32 bolts
you can go back and drill with a long 3/16 bit in your cordless and
have everything nice and tight.

Hose clamps with a bit of old inner tube make good clamps on irregular
things such as this.........
======================
Leon McAtee

[Ernest Christley]

wright1902glider wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm back in the shop again with a new problem. That is, how to drill
> accurate holes on-center through steel tubing.
>
> I need to attach 2 short lengths of 1/2" EMT tubing parallel to the top
> tube of a bicycle frame, one on each side. The EMT tubes will extend
> about 20" forward of the bike frame. The frame tube is about 1" dia. I
> want to drill horizontally through all 3 tubes and attach everything
> with a pair of #10 machine screws.
>
> Prob. is how to drill the holes on center so everything lines up. I
> have both a drill press and cordless drills at my disposal.
>
> Suggestions? Methods? Tools?
>
> Thanx,
> Harry
> Wright Brothers Bike Guru
> Wright 1902 glider
> Wright 1899 kite
>

Harbor Freight has a jig for about $5. Just a V-shaped piece of
aluminum that bolts to the bench press table. Position it so that the
bit drops down into the bottom of the V. Center punch the tube, and
position the tube on the jig so that the bit drops to the punch
depression. You'll get a centered hole every time.

I build my own jig from a piece of steel angle and a couple of bolts
before I realized that Harbor Freight sold the jig.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Smitty Two]

In article . com>,
"wright1902glider" > wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm back in the shop again with a new problem. That is, how to drill
> accurate holes on-center through steel tubing.
>
> I need to attach 2 short lengths of 1/2" EMT tubing parallel to the top
> tube of a bicycle frame, one on each side. The EMT tubes will extend
> about 20" forward of the bike frame. The frame tube is about 1" dia. I
> want to drill horizontally through all 3 tubes and attach everything
> with a pair of #10 machine screws.
>
> Prob. is how to drill the holes on center so everything lines up. I
> have both a drill press and cordless drills at my disposal.
>
> Suggestions? Methods? Tools?
>
> Thanx,
> Harry
> Wright Brothers Bike Guru
> Wright 1902 glider
> Wright 1899 kite

Any reason you've ruled out epoxy in lieu of the bolts? Seems like you
could make a nice neat job of it. You can get it in different colors, or
add pigment to the clear stuff.

[wright1902glider]

Has anyone seen v-blocks for sale at Lowe's or HD?

Epoxy doesn't offer enough strength. I'm attempting to recreate a
test-rig that the Wrights used before building the wind tunnel. It
consists of a regular bicycle with third wheel mounted horizontally out
in front of the handlebars. Attached vertically to either side of the
horizontal wheel are model airfoils or flat plates.

The theory was that using trigonometry, the wrights could evaluate
various airfiol sections by measuring the angle of deflection off
center, one airfoil vs. another.

Of course, it wasn't acurate enough for scientific purposes, hence the
wind tunnel, but it'll be fun to demonstrate at airshows.

[Smitty Two]

In article . com>,
"wright1902glider" > wrote:


>
> Epoxy doesn't offer enough strength.

If you're paralleling the tubes for six inches or more, and you filled
the notches between them top and bottom with a fillet of serious
industrial epoxy, (not the five minute stuff) I'd think you'd be able to
support more of a cantilevered load before the glue sheared, than you
would before the tubing folded at the bolt holes. (EMT isn't very
strong, and you're going to need a 0.187" hole for a #10 bolt.) But
that's just a feeling. I was the guy who built the weakest cardboard
bridge in high school physics, so I'm probably wrong.

Anyway, I can see you like the bolts. You could make your own clamping
fixture, a combination of the V-block idea and the two by four idea. If
you have a table saw, you could cut stepped grooves in two 6 or 8 inch
long wood blocks. The inner step has a width and depth of 1/2". The
outer step has a width of 1" and a depth of 1/2." Drill some holes for
drill bushings, available at the industrial hardware store, press them
in, clamp the two halves around the three tubes, and drill.

[Clay]

The best (strongest) epoxy is Belzona 1111 also refered to as Belzona
Super Metal.
Super Metal is machineable, no VOC's, no solvents, does not rot, does
not rust, does not shrink, or does not corrode. It is compatable with
all metals.
The same can not be said of Devcon, JB Weld, and most other epoxies on
the market. Yes many claim to be as good as Belzona but experience and
research has proven time and again they do not produce results as good
as the Belzona product. Belzona is may be more expensive but, if
results are important, is actually less expensive.
www.belzona.com

[Rich S.]

"wright1902glider" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Suggestions? Methods? Tools?

Harry.............

Drilling in a Vee block with a clamp is, of course, the way to hold the
tubing. On larger tubing, lining up the holes by placing a piece of angle
iron on the tube and using the edge of the iron as a straight edge to scribe
a line works pretty well.

When I was a nipple twister in the pipe shop at Todd's shipyard, we had some
clamps made especially for operations like this. It was a two-bolt pipe
clamp that bolted tightly around the tube. Welded to one half of the clamp
was a short piece of 1" x 1" angle iron. It was welded across the diameter
of the tube and parallel to the clamp.

With the tubing clamped in a drill press (or in a tubing bender), a level
was placed on the angle iron and the clamp rotated until the bubble was in
the center. The clamp was tightened at that point and either the first hole
drilled or the first bend made.

Then the tubing was relocated for the next hole (or bend). This time, you'd
rotate the tubing until the level showed that in was in the same orientation
as the previous setup. Clamp the tubing in place, drill or bend and move on
to the next.

You could also rotate the tube from one operation to the next by any degree
if you used an adjustable degree level.

Regards,
Rich S.

[Smitty Two]

In article . com>,
"Clay" > wrote:

> The best (strongest) epoxy is Belzona 1111 also refered to as Belzona
> Super Metal.
> Super Metal is machineable, no VOC's, no solvents, does not rot, does
> not rust, does not shrink, or does not corrode. It is compatable with
> all metals.
> The same can not be said of Devcon, JB Weld, and most other epoxies on
> the market. Yes many claim to be as good as Belzona but experience and
> research has proven time and again they do not produce results as good
> as the Belzona product. Belzona is may be more expensive but, if
> results are important, is actually less expensive.
> www.belzona.com

And speaking of epoxy and bicycles, recumbent bike guy might want to
know, if he's still hanging around here, that there's a carbon fiber
bicycle whose tubes are secured to titanium lugs with epoxy.

[wright1902glider]

Thanks for the tips guys.

Epoxy is pretty much out of the question for me. Kinda hard to find
things like that out here in Denver. Its gonna hafta be machine
screws... that's what I have on hand. The table saw is also packed away
right now.... grumble... grrrr.

I'd use better tubing and just braze everything, but my MAPP gas torch
just isn't hot enuf. Already tried it.

I am going to use another EMT tube running from the bike's down-tube to
the wheel as a brace. This setup is similar to the way old delivery
bikes were made. Most of the replica Wright test-bikes that I've seen
use pannier-style struts attached to the front fork and handlebars. But
this would introduce a lot of lateral motion into the experiment wheel
as the bike is ridden. I'm guessing that the Wright boys knew that and
used a frame-mounted setup.

[Ernest Christley]

Smitty Two wrote:

> Anyway, I can see you like the bolts. You could make your own clamping
> fixture, a combination of the V-block idea and the two by four idea. If
> you have a table saw, you could cut stepped grooves in two 6 or 8 inch
> long wood blocks. The inner step has a width and depth of 1/2". The
> outer step has a width of 1" and a depth of 1/2." Drill some holes for
> drill bushings, available at the industrial hardware store, press them
> in, clamp the two halves around the three tubes, and drill.

If you're going to do all that cutting on a table saw, then just set the
blade at a 45 degree angle and run a block through twice so that it cuts
a nice V. If you use a 2x4 block, set your fence at about 2.25" from
center and you'll get a 1/2" wide V. Drill a couple holes to bolt it to
the drillpress table. It won't be a permanent tool, but it'll work
perfectly to build one bike.

A further enhancement, I welded a short piece of angle to a C clamp.
Makes holding the tube much easier.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Morgans]

"Smitty Two" > wrote

> Anyway, I can see you like the bolts.

It kinda' more in lines with what the Wright brothers would have used, too,
isn't it? I'll bet they didn't have epoxy to put their bicycle wind tunnel
together, right? <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Smitty Two]

In article >,
Ernest Christley > wrote:

> Smitty Two wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I can see you like the bolts. You could make your own clamping
> > fixture, a combination of the V-block idea and the two by four idea. If
> > you have a table saw, you could cut stepped grooves in two 6 or 8 inch
> > long wood blocks. The inner step has a width and depth of 1/2". The
> > outer step has a width of 1" and a depth of 1/2." Drill some holes for
> > drill bushings, available at the industrial hardware store, press them
> > in, clamp the two halves around the three tubes, and drill.
>
> If you're going to do all that cutting on a table saw, then just set the
> blade at a 45 degree angle and run a block through twice so that it cuts
> a nice V. If you use a 2x4 block, set your fence at about 2.25" from
> center and you'll get a 1/2" wide V. Drill a couple holes to bolt it to
> the drillpress table. It won't be a permanent tool, but it'll work
> perfectly to build one bike.
>
> A further enhancement, I welded a short piece of angle to a C clamp.
> Makes holding the tube much easier.

It seems you're talking about a fixture to drill one piece of tubing at
a time, while I envisioned a fixture to drill all three pieces at once,
while clamped together. I don't have the patience to draw in ascii, and
I know my written description was somewhat lacking.

I think having access to a machine shop has made me more particular
about how things fit, probably too particular. If it were my project, I
wouldn't drill mating holes in any two pieces of anything ever, unless
they were either clamped together, or dialed off to the 0.001 on the
mill. I'll freely concede that that may be overkill for this project.

[GeorgeB]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:24:47 -0700, Smitty Two
> wrote:

>In article . com>,
> "wright1902glider" > wrote:

>If you're paralleling the tubes for six inches or more, and you filled
>the notches between them top and bottom with a fillet of serious
>industrial epoxy, (not the five minute stuff) I'd think you'd be able to
>support more of a cantilevered load before the glue sheared, than you
>would before the tubing folded at the bolt holes.

From a strenght issue, I agree; most adhesives I've worked with will
fail from the concentrated peel forces in an application like this.
What he wants to do is taper a wedge, probably of wood, over a few
inches so the load is unifirmly imposed. No, I cannot do a sketch.

>(EMT isn't very
>strong, and you're going to need a 0.187" hole for a #10 bolt.)

I want to see how hard he has to drive to get a 0.190" fastener (#10)
through a 0.187" hole ...

In reality, I agree with you. Most #10 are specifically on the low
side of tolerance so they can fit the 3/16" spec, and most drills
drill oversize.

>Anyway, I can see you like the bolts. You could make your own clamping
>fixture, a combination of the V-block idea and the two by four idea. If
>you have a table saw, you could cut stepped grooves in two 6 or 8 inch
>long wood blocks. The inner step has a width and depth of 1/2". The
>outer step has a width of 1" and a depth of 1/2." Drill some holes for
>drill bushings, available at the industrial hardware store, press them
>in, clamp the two halves around the three tubes, and drill.

And leave the v-grooved blocks installed, extending past the fasteners
in the loaded direction.

[[email protected]]

>>> Anyway, I can see you like the bolts.

It kinda' more in lines with what the Wright brothers would have
used,<<

In keeping with the way the brothers might have done it - how about
drillining 3 holes in a couple of pieces of wood of the diameter needed
to fit the EMT and the bicycle tube, saw in half and bolt together
clamping the tubes together? Might need 3 sets of blocks to keep
things torsionally rigid.

--0-O-0--

====================
Leon McAtee

[rckchp]

There is a company named Micro - Mark (the small tool specilalists) (
www.micromark.com) which sells a tool called, "center finder for round
stock". Here is the item number : 82281 . Maybe it will work for you.

Rich A.


wright1902glider wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm back in the shop again with a new problem. That is, how to drill
> accurate holes on-center through steel tubing.

[wright1902glider]

Thanks for all of the advice.

Orville probably brazed his tubes on, but then he was in the business
of building bicycles and had a hotter torch than I do.

Once I get the holes drilled in the bike frame accurately, I should be
able to clamp one of the EMT tubes to the frame and just drill through
the holes. Then, clamp the second EMT tube to the other side and drill
through the entire works. It doesnt have to be perfect, just good
enough not to spot from 5 feet away. The EMT is pretty forgiving and I
can tweek it into alignment with a B. A. H. if necessary.

Tomorrow is Monday, and that means its time for my weekly trip to the
local HF store. (evil, evil, evil store.. oh, evil cheap chineese
tools...) They have v-blocks listed in the catalog. Crossing my fingers
that the store carries them.

Anyone ever seen anything like them at Home Cheap-O or Lowe's Aircraft
Supply? I've seen one online thats made of aluminum and bolts to the
table of a drill press. That would be ideal I think.

Harry

[Morgans]

"wright1902glider" > wrote

> Once I get the holes drilled in the bike frame accurately, I should be
> able to clamp one of the EMT tubes to the frame and just drill through
> the holes. Then, clamp the second EMT tube to the other side and drill
> through the entire works. It doesnt have to be perfect, just good
> enough not to spot from 5 feet away. The EMT is pretty forgiving and I
> can tweek it into alignment with a B. A. H. if necessary.

Just make sure you put a wooden plug or something in the EMT where the bolts
go through. If you don't, they will crush when you attempt to tighten the
bolts. Don't ask me how I know that!

You could use a dowel rod, or turn a plug, using a drill press, bolt for
arbor, and a rasp.
--
Jim in NC

[Big John]

Have you tried JB Weld. Tough as hell and sticks like glue.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````````````````````

On 30 Sep 2005 19:40:40 -0700, "wright1902glider"
> wrote:

>Has anyone seen v-blocks for sale at Lowe's or HD?
>
>Epoxy doesn't offer enough strength. I'm attempting to recreate a
>test-rig that the Wrights used before building the wind tunnel. It
>consists of a regular bicycle with third wheel mounted horizontally out
>in front of the handlebars. Attached vertically to either side of the
>horizontal wheel are model airfoils or flat plates.
>
>The theory was that using trigonometry, the wrights could evaluate
>various airfiol sections by measuring the angle of deflection off
>center, one airfoil vs. another.
>
>Of course, it wasn't acurate enough for scientific purposes, hence the
>wind tunnel, but it'll be fun to demonstrate at airshows.

[wright1902glider]

Latest Update:

The mysterious and elusive v-block has a brand name: Center-It.

After 4 hardware stores I figured it out. HF has them in the catalog,
but not the local store. Ditto on Wick's and AS&S catalogs.

But for $20 (w/ s & h) I'm seroiusly considering dragging out the table
saw and making one out of wood.

Veedubber also suggested low-temp brazing rods with the MAPP torch. A
quick Google led to several sites of guys brazing bike frames with
1/16" solid brass rods, stanadrd Mapp/air torches and regular old boric
acid as flux.

I think I may etch the zinc off a few chunks of conduit and give it a
try in the next few days.

Stay tuned.

Harry