Need some advice for new pilot in training

[Bubba]

Hello everyone,

I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie" messages a week and I
apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject reads, I'm a new
pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a month now, but I
only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up four times now. I
feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in his knowledge and
experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is much more difficult
than it sounds/looks.

So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight the aircraft, taxi
on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good about those three
things. In other words, I can get myself in the air and establish a
steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy). However, my instructor
is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living hell out of me!!
We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I know what they
feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really, really don't like
these.

Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to landings. Now, my
log book only has about four hours of flight time in it, so you can only
imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the Skyhawks landing gear
held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I was trying to land
with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing from right to
left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the right rudder pedal
pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as hell. I'm still
amazed we didn't crash.

So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
now my confidence is shot.

Thanks in advance,
Terry

[John Doe]

"Bubba" > wrote in message
...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie" messages a week and I
> apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject reads, I'm a new
> pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a month now, but I
> only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up four times now. I
> feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in his knowledge and
> experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is much more difficult
> than it sounds/looks.
>
> So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight the aircraft, taxi
> on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good about those three
> things. In other words, I can get myself in the air and establish a
> steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy). However, my instructor
> is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living hell out of me!!
> We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I know what they
> feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really, really don't like
> these.
>
> Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to landings. Now, my
> log book only has about four hours of flight time in it, so you can only
> imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the Skyhawks landing gear
> held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I was trying to land
> with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing from right to
> left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the right rudder pedal
> pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as hell. I'm still
> amazed we didn't crash.
>
> So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
> advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
> now my confidence is shot.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Terry

Just think back and realize how cool it was that you were up there flying
while the rest of this planet was stuck on the ground. Then realize that it
takes everyone several hours before they get the hang of it and stick with
it. Don't give up. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it, and if
everyone was doing it, we'd have alot of stupid pilots up there flying
planes scaring the crap out of the rest of us.

Relax and enjoy it, you'll get it with time. You don't even have enough
hours yet to wipe your ass, don't worry about your landings.....

[Peter Duniho]

"Bubba" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
> advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
> now my confidence is shot.

Stalls: they don't panic me, but I did find that when an instructor showed
me what happens when you *don't* recover, but instead simply keep the
elevator held back, I became even more comfortable with them. This was in a
Cessna 172, and the nose simply bobbed a bit. Use the rudder to keep the
wings level, of course. It's actually quite a gentle maneuver, and helps
illustrate just how much of the drama of a normal stall recover is
pilot-induced. :)

Landings: IMHO, introducing landings on a runway with a crosswind doesn't
make much sense. Better for your instructor to find a different runway with
a parallel wind (or none at all). That said, regardless of where you start
your landings, at four hours it's WAY too soon to be worrying about whether
you'll ever get them right. If you're still trying to figure it out at 40
hours, then come back and we can all talk to you about it.

Finally, use Google Groups to look for other messages here, and on
rec.aviation.student (which would be a better place for your concerns) for
questions about stalls and landings. Lots of people have gone through what
you're going through, and the best information you can get right now is to
know that your experience is extremely similar to many other people's.

Pete

[Seth Masia]

Right now, it's good that stalls scare you. That's why they're introduced
now, early in training, so you won't make the classic mistake of getting too
slow on final approach and stalling near the ground.

Pay very close attention to the sensations you feel just before the airplane
stalls: controls go "soft," you need a lot of rudder to keep the wings
level, the deck angle is odd; and when it comes time to solo, be ready to
take recovery action BEFORE the stall happens.

Don't worry about X-wind landings right now. I take it your airport has
only one runway. When you solo, your instructor will pick a calm day, or
one with a light breeze right down the runway. You won't be asked to do
X-winds seriously until your skills are much better than they are now.
Right now, just concentrate on coordinated turns, straight and level, and
stable consistent descents. When your instructor sees that you can do these
things without sweating, he/she will move on to the kind of fancy footwork
it takes to make smooth crosswind landings.

Seth
N8110R

"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:ag10f.57708$8q.9073@lakeread01...
>
> "Bubba" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie" messages a week and I
>> apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject reads, I'm a new
>> pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a month now, but I
>> only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up four times now. I
>> feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in his knowledge and
>> experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is much more difficult
>> than it sounds/looks.
>>
>> So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight the aircraft, taxi
>> on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good about those three
>> things. In other words, I can get myself in the air and establish a
>> steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy). However, my instructor
>> is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living hell out of me!!
>> We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I know what they
>> feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really, really don't like
>> these.
>>
>> Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to landings. Now, my
>> log book only has about four hours of flight time in it, so you can only
>> imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the Skyhawks landing gear
>> held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I was trying to land
>> with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing from right to
>> left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the right rudder pedal
>> pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as hell. I'm still
>> amazed we didn't crash.
>>
>> So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
>> advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
>> now my confidence is shot.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Terry
>
> Just think back and realize how cool it was that you were up there flying
> while the rest of this planet was stuck on the ground. Then realize that
> it takes everyone several hours before they get the hang of it and stick
> with it. Don't give up. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it, and
> if everyone was doing it, we'd have alot of stupid pilots up there flying
> planes scaring the crap out of the rest of us.
>
> Relax and enjoy it, you'll get it with time. You don't even have enough
> hours yet to wipe your ass, don't worry about your landings.....
>
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Seth Masia" > wrote in message
...
> Right now, it's good that stalls scare you. That's why they're introduced
> now

I hope you're not instructing.

Stalls aren't supposed to scare you. They are supposed to teach you about
slow flight and about recovering from stalls.

If an instructor ever scares you on purpose, that should be the last flight
you ever have with that instructor.

Pete

[cjcampbell]

Bubba wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie" messages a week and I
> apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject reads, I'm a new
> pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a month now, but I
> only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up four times now. I
> feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in his knowledge and
> experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is much more difficult
> than it sounds/looks.
>
> So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight the aircraft, taxi
> on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good about those three
> things. In other words, I can get myself in the air and establish a
> steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy). However, my instructor
> is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living hell out of me!!
> We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I know what they
> feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really, really don't like
> these.
>
> Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to landings. Now, my
> log book only has about four hours of flight time in it, so you can only
> imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the Skyhawks landing gear
> held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I was trying to land
> with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing from right to
> left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the right rudder pedal
> pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as hell. I'm still
> amazed we didn't crash.
>
> So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
> advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
> now my confidence is shot.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Terry

Stalls: do them until they are fun. :-) Actually, you are not the first
student who did not like stalls. Check over on rec.aviation.student and
you will find that out real quick. In fact, you will want to sign up
over there because this is just the beginning of questions that you
will have that the folks over there will help with.

Okay, you are uncomfortable with stalls at first. I didn't like them,
either. Most people don't. One way I help my students to become more
comfortable with them is I make the students hold on the yoke by the
center stem only. This keeps the student from turning the yoke and
banking the plane. Then, instead of recovering immediately, I have the
student just hold the airplane in a stall and keep the nose straight
and the wings level using rudder only. Do this with power off stalls
only, of course. I make a game out of it: how long can you keep the
wing from dipping? Pretty soon the student realizes that the airplane
is not going to do anything that he doesn't allow it to do.

Power on stalls are pretty easy to recover from. Most students pitch
too high and get too abrupt a recovery. As long as your airspeed keeps
coming back you will eventually stall. Once you do stall, just relax
the back pressure a little; too many people think they have to push the
yoke forward. You don't, just relax a little and the nose will come
down enough to break the stall. You will find that you can move in and
out of a power on stall just bobbing the nose up and down a little. Try
to see how little movement you can do it with.

Now, you might think that messing around like this you might get into a
spin. Well, what of it? You have your instructor along and he is
supposed to know how to recover from mistakes like that. Even so, it is
unlikely because what I have you doing is just hovering on the edge of
a stall. Hanging on to the center of the yoke is also going to keep you
from making inappropriate aileron inputs.

Usually when a student is having trouble with landing he has not
prepared well enough with slow flight and ground reference maneuvers.
Granted, the student begins landing almost from the first lesson, but
serious study of landings should begin only after the basic work has
been mastered. I usually hold off on landing practice until just before
solo, but that is still about half the pre-solo work you have to do --
crosswind landings, recovering from landing errors, no-flap landings,
etc.

Look for these common errors: not looking far enough down the runway,
pulling up the nose too soon ("fear of runway"), and poor airspeed
control. Never practice more than three landings in a row before having
your instructor demonstrate another one. It helps to keep from
developing bad landing habits.

Don't worry about the Skyhawk's landing gear. For certification they
drop the plane from something like 20 feet and if the gear doesn't
break, it passes. I can almost guarantee that you will hurt yourself
before you hurt the gear, with the exception of the nose gear. If you
must make a bad landing, at least don't drop it on the nose gear. It
just is not built to take it. Neither is the propeller, engine, or
firewall, all of which can be easily damaged by landing on the nose
gear. So don't do it.

[kontiki]

Its is not at all unusual for you to feel that way at this
point in your training. After you have practiced landings
and stalls more you will fear them less and one day soon
you'll be out there and discover yourself doing them
remarkably well.

Persistance and diligence is the name of the game.

[Bubba]

In article >,
"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

> "Seth Masia" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Right now, it's good that stalls scare you. That's why they're introduced
> > now
>
> I hope you're not instructing.
>
> Stalls aren't supposed to scare you. They are supposed to teach you about
> slow flight and about recovering from stalls.
>
> If an instructor ever scares you on purpose, that should be the last flight
> you ever have with that instructor.
>
> Pete
>
>

Wow!!! Thanks to everyone who responded. I found the
rec.aviation.student group and will start posting more questions there.
I will see if my instructor will let me try holding on to the center of
the yoke for a stall recovery, that sounds ideal. I know the first time
I tried recovering from a stall, I pushed the yoke as far forward as it
would go and all I saw was ground. Scary, yes, but my instructor said
not to push that far, instead just nice and gentle push on the yoke only
enough to recover from the stall and gain some airspeed. I think this
weekend, I will feel more comfortable.

At four hours of flight time, I kinda felt it was a little early to
learn landings as well, but I have assumed my flight instructor knows
what he is doing. Maybe I should speak up and tell him when I feel
comfortable moving on to a new technique.

Anyway, thank you so much to everyone for your responses. I will
definitely keep reading this group and the rec.aviation.student as well.

Terry

[Mark T. Dame]

Bubba wrote:
>
> At four hours of flight time, I kinda felt it was a little early to
> learn landings as well, but I have assumed my flight instructor knows
> what he is doing.

It's never too early to learn how to land. I have a friend who soloed
with less than four hours in his log book. His first couple of lessons
never left the pattern. They were all take-offs, landings, and touch &
go's. Of course that was back in the 60's and they had a difference
emphasis back them.

In my case, we started working on landings the very first lesson. My
third lesson was focused completely on skills needed for landing
(stalls, simulated pattern over a corn field, and actual landings
including a go-around). By five hours I was doing touch & go's.

Since landing is a mandatory part of every flight, I feel that teaching
it early and often is the right approach. The sooner you start working
on it, the easier it will be. The first few hours of flight training
are very important to establishing habits and skills that will be with
you for the rest of your flying "career". An important skill like
landing deserves to be included in that time.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"In accord with UNIX philosophy, Perl gives you enough rope to
hang yourself."
-- Programming perl, Larry Wall and Randal L. Schwartz

[Peter Duniho]

"Bubba" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> At four hours of flight time, I kinda felt it was a little early to
> learn landings as well, but I have assumed my flight instructor knows
> what he is doing. Maybe I should speak up and tell him when I feel
> comfortable moving on to a new technique.

Just to clarify, I agree with Mark. My point was that four hours is too
early to be *worried* about whether you'll have trouble with landings. I
never suggested it was too early to introduce landings (though I did suggest
difficult crosswind landings might be inappropriate that early).

I will, however, agree with your thought of communicating with your
instructor about your comfort level with various aspects of training. You
should be able to trust your instructor, and I'll recommend you give him the
benefit of the doubt with respect to decisions about when to introduce new
topics. But at the same time, it's important for you to provide him with
feedback about how the learning process is going for you, and your feelings
about specific types of flight.

One of the great advantages of one-on-one training (as opposed to classroom)
is the ability for the instructor to tailor the instruction to the student,
and for the student to provide the feedback necessary for the instructor to
be able to do that. Don't make the all-too-common mistake of failing to
make full use of this advantage.

Pete

[three-eight-hotel]

Terry,

The previous posters have all offered very good advice! I'm only
chiming in to emphasize the fact that after four lessons, you shouldn't
feel discouraged!

Stalls are naturally intimidating,when you first do them, but they
shouldn't scare you You should start to master them in no time.

Landings however... I don't remember how long it actually took, but I
swore I was never going to feel comfortable with them! Just like
anything else, it takes practice. Be patient, stick with it and before
you know it your instructor will ask you to pull off on the nearest
taxi way, hop out and give you a thumbs-up as you start back-taxiing
for your first solo flight!

Hang in there and don't get discouraged!

Best Regards,
Todd

[RST Engineering]

And then afterwards ask you (in jest) how it felt to break your first FAR
because you went flying without having your student certificate endorsed for
solo before (s)he hopped out ...

{;-)


Jim




"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...

Be patient, stick with it and before
> you know it your instructor will ask you to pull off on the nearest
> taxi way, hop out and give you a thumbs-up as you start back-taxiing
> for your first solo flight!

[Bubba]

In article >,
kontiki > wrote:

> Its is not at all unusual for you to feel that way at this
> point in your training. After you have practiced landings
> and stalls more you will fear them less and one day soon
> you'll be out there and discover yourself doing them
> remarkably well.
>
> Persistance and diligence is the name of the game.
>

I certainly will take all advice given to me and once I again, I thank
each and every one of you for offering your advice and encouragement. I
spoke with my instructor today and told him that I thought I was pushing
the yoke too far forward when attempting to recover from the power-off
stall and he agreed. So, this coming Saturday, we're going up to
practice power-off stalls and landings. I will certainly post on how it
goes, but probably in the rec.aviation.student group as it is more
appropriate to where I am in my training.

Thanks to you all!!
Terry

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 02:31:38 GMT, Bubba > wrote:

> Again, this was scary as hell.

Tell your instructor you were scared, and that you don't want to fly
in scary situations, or at least not just yet.

There is no reason at all that you should be learning to cope with
crosswinds at this stage. (Or landing, for that matter, if you don't
feel comfortable landing the aircraft. I hate to tell you how many
hours I had before I landed the Cub, never mind soloed it. I just
couldn't wait to get the instructor out of there, or get him to fold
his arms, in the former case.)




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:02:07 -0400, "Mark T. Dame" >
wrote:

>In my case, we started working on landings the very first lesson. My
>third lesson was focused completely on skills needed for landing
>(stalls, simulated pattern over a corn field, and actual landings
>including a go-around). By five hours I was doing touch & go's.

This is a very high standard for a newbie. I think it would be better
to tell him/her about the guy who spent a thousand dollars learning
how to taxi the airplane, 50 hours to solo, 100 hours to check flight.
Then, when he/she beats the benchmark, he/she will feel very chuffed.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Mark T. Dame]

Cub Driver wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:02:07 -0400, "Mark T. Dame" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>In my case, we started working on landings the very first lesson. My
>>third lesson was focused completely on skills needed for landing
>>(stalls, simulated pattern over a corn field, and actual landings
>>including a go-around). By five hours I was doing touch & go's.
>
> This is a very high standard for a newbie. I think it would be better
> to tell him/her about the guy who spent a thousand dollars learning
> how to taxi the airplane, 50 hours to solo, 100 hours to check flight.
> Then, when he/she beats the benchmark, he/she will feel very chuffed.

(-:

My point has nothing to do with skill (or lack thereof), just that four
hours isn't too early to start learning how to land. And I had a very
conservative instructor. He didn't start teaching me how to land on my
first lesson because I was some kind of natural. Far from it. He
started teaching how to land on the first lesson because landing is the
most important part of the flight.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead."

[Mark T. Dame]

three-eight-hotel wrote:
>
> Landings however... I don't remember how long it actually took, but I
> swore I was never going to feel comfortable with them!

I'm approaching 400 hours and I think I *almost* have it figured out...

(-:


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"To paraphrase Thomas Edison, programming is 10 percent inspiration
and 90 percent debugging."
-- C: The Complete Reference, Herbert Schildt

[Christopher Parker]

I am having a similar issue with the stall training and I have seen my
instructor perform the same technique you mentioned with the power on stall,
but he has not explained how he achieves it. Now I know how he does it, but
I still have a question. How do you prevent excessive gain in altitude if
you do not pitch high?



"cjcampbell" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Bubba wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie" messages a week and I
> > apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject reads, I'm a new
> > pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a month now, but I
> > only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up four times now. I
> > feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in his knowledge and
> > experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is much more difficult
> > than it sounds/looks.
> >
> > So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight the aircraft, taxi
> > on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good about those three
> > things. In other words, I can get myself in the air and establish a
> > steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy). However, my instructor
> > is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living hell out of me!!
> > We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I know what they
> > feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really, really don't like
> > these.
> >
> > Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to landings. Now, my
> > log book only has about four hours of flight time in it, so you can only
> > imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the Skyhawks landing gear
> > held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I was trying to land
> > with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing from right to
> > left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the right rudder pedal
> > pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as hell. I'm still
> > amazed we didn't crash.
> >
> > So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
> > advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
> > now my confidence is shot.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Terry
>
> Stalls: do them until they are fun. :-) Actually, you are not the first
> student who did not like stalls. Check over on rec.aviation.student and
> you will find that out real quick. In fact, you will want to sign up
> over there because this is just the beginning of questions that you
> will have that the folks over there will help with.
>
> Okay, you are uncomfortable with stalls at first. I didn't like them,
> either. Most people don't. One way I help my students to become more
> comfortable with them is I make the students hold on the yoke by the
> center stem only. This keeps the student from turning the yoke and
> banking the plane. Then, instead of recovering immediately, I have the
> student just hold the airplane in a stall and keep the nose straight
> and the wings level using rudder only. Do this with power off stalls
> only, of course. I make a game out of it: how long can you keep the
> wing from dipping? Pretty soon the student realizes that the airplane
> is not going to do anything that he doesn't allow it to do.
>
> Power on stalls are pretty easy to recover from. Most students pitch
> too high and get too abrupt a recovery. As long as your airspeed keeps
> coming back you will eventually stall. Once you do stall, just relax
> the back pressure a little; too many people think they have to push the
> yoke forward. You don't, just relax a little and the nose will come
> down enough to break the stall. You will find that you can move in and
> out of a power on stall just bobbing the nose up and down a little. Try
> to see how little movement you can do it with.
>
> Now, you might think that messing around like this you might get into a
> spin. Well, what of it? You have your instructor along and he is
> supposed to know how to recover from mistakes like that. Even so, it is
> unlikely because what I have you doing is just hovering on the edge of
> a stall. Hanging on to the center of the yoke is also going to keep you
> from making inappropriate aileron inputs.
>
> Usually when a student is having trouble with landing he has not
> prepared well enough with slow flight and ground reference maneuvers.
> Granted, the student begins landing almost from the first lesson, but
> serious study of landings should begin only after the basic work has
> been mastered. I usually hold off on landing practice until just before
> solo, but that is still about half the pre-solo work you have to do --
> crosswind landings, recovering from landing errors, no-flap landings,
> etc.
>
> Look for these common errors: not looking far enough down the runway,
> pulling up the nose too soon ("fear of runway"), and poor airspeed
> control. Never practice more than three landings in a row before having
> your instructor demonstrate another one. It helps to keep from
> developing bad landing habits.
>
> Don't worry about the Skyhawk's landing gear. For certification they
> drop the plane from something like 20 feet and if the gear doesn't
> break, it passes. I can almost guarantee that you will hurt yourself
> before you hurt the gear, with the exception of the nose gear. If you
> must make a bad landing, at least don't drop it on the nose gear. It
> just is not built to take it. Neither is the propeller, engine, or
> firewall, all of which can be easily damaged by landing on the nose
> gear. So don't do it.
>

[Jim Macklin]

Slow to 1.2 Vs, pitch up and add T.O. power, the plane won't
gain to much altitude before the power on stall.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Christopher Parker" > wrote in message
...
|I am having a similar issue with the stall training and I
have seen my
| instructor perform the same technique you mentioned with
the power on stall,
| but he has not explained how he achieves it. Now I know
how he does it, but
| I still have a question. How do you prevent excessive
gain in altitude if
| you do not pitch high?
|
|
|
| "cjcampbell" > wrote in
message
|
oups.com...
| >
| > Bubba wrote:
| > > Hello everyone,
| > >
| > > I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie"
messages a week and I
| > > apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject
reads, I'm a new
| > > pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a
month now, but I
| > > only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up
four times now. I
| > > feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in
his knowledge and
| > > experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is
much more difficult
| > > than it sounds/looks.
| > >
| > > So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight
the aircraft, taxi
| > > on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good
about those three
| > > things. In other words, I can get myself in the air
and establish a
| > > steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy).
However, my instructor
| > > is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living
hell out of me!!
| > > We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I
know what they
| > > feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really,
really don't like
| > > these.
| > >
| > > Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to
landings. Now, my
| > > log book only has about four hours of flight time in
it, so you can only
| > > imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the
Skyhawks landing gear
| > > held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I
was trying to land
| > > with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing
from right to
| > > left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the
right rudder pedal
| > > pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as
hell. I'm still
| > > amazed we didn't crash.
| > >
| > > So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you
guys offer some
| > > advice on how to get through stall training and
landings because right
| > > now my confidence is shot.
| > >
| > > Thanks in advance,
| > > Terry
| >
| > Stalls: do them until they are fun. :-) Actually, you
are not the first
| > student who did not like stalls. Check over on
rec.aviation.student and
| > you will find that out real quick. In fact, you will
want to sign up
| > over there because this is just the beginning of
questions that you
| > will have that the folks over there will help with.
| >
| > Okay, you are uncomfortable with stalls at first. I
didn't like them,
| > either. Most people don't. One way I help my students to
become more
| > comfortable with them is I make the students hold on the
yoke by the
| > center stem only. This keeps the student from turning
the yoke and
| > banking the plane. Then, instead of recovering
immediately, I have the
| > student just hold the airplane in a stall and keep the
nose straight
| > and the wings level using rudder only. Do this with
power off stalls
| > only, of course. I make a game out of it: how long can
you keep the
| > wing from dipping? Pretty soon the student realizes that
the airplane
| > is not going to do anything that he doesn't allow it to
do.
| >
| > Power on stalls are pretty easy to recover from. Most
students pitch
| > too high and get too abrupt a recovery. As long as your
airspeed keeps
| > coming back you will eventually stall. Once you do
stall, just relax
| > the back pressure a little; too many people think they
have to push the
| > yoke forward. You don't, just relax a little and the
nose will come
| > down enough to break the stall. You will find that you
can move in and
| > out of a power on stall just bobbing the nose up and
down a little. Try
| > to see how little movement you can do it with.
| >
| > Now, you might think that messing around like this you
might get into a
| > spin. Well, what of it? You have your instructor along
and he is
| > supposed to know how to recover from mistakes like that.
Even so, it is
| > unlikely because what I have you doing is just hovering
on the edge of
| > a stall. Hanging on to the center of the yoke is also
going to keep you
| > from making inappropriate aileron inputs.
| >
| > Usually when a student is having trouble with landing he
has not
| > prepared well enough with slow flight and ground
reference maneuvers.
| > Granted, the student begins landing almost from the
first lesson, but
| > serious study of landings should begin only after the
basic work has
| > been mastered. I usually hold off on landing practice
until just before
| > solo, but that is still about half the pre-solo work you
have to do --
| > crosswind landings, recovering from landing errors,
no-flap landings,
| > etc.
| >
| > Look for these common errors: not looking far enough
down the runway,
| > pulling up the nose too soon ("fear of runway"), and
poor airspeed
| > control. Never practice more than three landings in a
row before having
| > your instructor demonstrate another one. It helps to
keep from
| > developing bad landing habits.
| >
| > Don't worry about the Skyhawk's landing gear. For
certification they
| > drop the plane from something like 20 feet and if the
gear doesn't
| > break, it passes. I can almost guarantee that you will
hurt yourself
| > before you hurt the gear, with the exception of the nose
gear. If you
| > must make a bad landing, at least don't drop it on the
nose gear. It
| > just is not built to take it. Neither is the propeller,
engine, or
| > firewall, all of which can be easily damaged by landing
on the nose
| > gear. So don't do it.
| >
|
|

[Tom]

The most important thing about learning to fly is to not give up. It
would be easy to do that when you become uncomfortable about any one of
the many aspects of learning to fly. Stick to it and what was
overwhelming last week will be easy next week.

I used to whip myself into a near panic attack thinking about landings.
The real thing was never as bad as I dreamed up. I did have a few
bounces and I thought that the landing gear was surely damaged beyond
repair, but it wasn't so. I would walk up and down the road near the
school before my lesson in order to relax my anxiety. It worked and now
I don't walk anywhere but into the FBO to get the keys to the plane. It
helped me to talk to other students in person and through this news
group. Seems like everyone has had similar experiences during the
training phase of learning to fly.

Practice builds confidence and enables you to become less tense about
the unusual attitudes you are placing your previously earthbound body.
Stick with it and enjoy the moments you will have in the air.


Tom

[Bob Gardner]

A cautionary note...don't fall into the trap of thinking that stalls have to
be done "right." After all, we never want to stall in real life. What you
are being exposed to is stall recognition, so you will know what to do if
you enter a stall inadvertently. Concentrate on how the controls feel, how
effective they are, and any buffeting of the elevator...that knowledge is
more important than doing the stall "right."

Bob Gardner

"Christopher Parker" > wrote in message
...
>I am having a similar issue with the stall training and I have seen my
> instructor perform the same technique you mentioned with the power on
> stall,
> but he has not explained how he achieves it. Now I know how he does it,
> but
> I still have a question. How do you prevent excessive gain in altitude if
> you do not pitch high?
>
>
>
> "cjcampbell" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Bubba wrote:
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > I'm sure you probably read at least 50 "newbie" messages a week and I
>> > apologize in advance for this one. But as the subject reads, I'm a new
>> > pilot in training. I've only been flying for about a month now, but I
>> > only fly once a week, so really, I've only been up four times now. I
>> > feel comfortable with my instructor and confident in his knowledge and
>> > experience, but I have to admit, learning to fly is much more difficult
>> > than it sounds/looks.
>> >
>> > So far, I feel confident in my ability to pre-flight the aircraft, taxi
>> > on the taxi-ways, and take offs. I feel pretty good about those three
>> > things. In other words, I can get myself in the air and establish a
>> > steady altitude and fly (which I really enjoy). However, my instructor
>> > is now showing me "stalls." These scare the living hell out of me!!
>> > We've done power-off stalls for two sessions now and I know what they
>> > feel like and can recover from them ok, but I really, really don't like
>> > these.
>> >
>> > Also, last session, my instructor introduced me to landings. Now, my
>> > log book only has about four hours of flight time in it, so you can
>> > only
>> > imagine how this went. I'm really surprised the Skyhawks landing gear
>> > held up to my abuse. Plus, for my first attempt, I was trying to land
>> > with an unbelievable cross-wind. The wind was blowing from right to
>> > left and from what I can tell, my instructor had the right rudder pedal
>> > pressed all the way down. Again, this was scary as hell. I'm still
>> > amazed we didn't crash.
>> >
>> > So I guess my question would be this: Can any of you guys offer some
>> > advice on how to get through stall training and landings because right
>> > now my confidence is shot.
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance,
>> > Terry
>>
>> Stalls: do them until they are fun. :-) Actually, you are not the first
>> student who did not like stalls. Check over on rec.aviation.student and
>> you will find that out real quick. In fact, you will want to sign up
>> over there because this is just the beginning of questions that you
>> will have that the folks over there will help with.
>>
>> Okay, you are uncomfortable with stalls at first. I didn't like them,
>> either. Most people don't. One way I help my students to become more
>> comfortable with them is I make the students hold on the yoke by the
>> center stem only. This keeps the student from turning the yoke and
>> banking the plane. Then, instead of recovering immediately, I have the
>> student just hold the airplane in a stall and keep the nose straight
>> and the wings level using rudder only. Do this with power off stalls
>> only, of course. I make a game out of it: how long can you keep the
>> wing from dipping? Pretty soon the student realizes that the airplane
>> is not going to do anything that he doesn't allow it to do.
>>
>> Power on stalls are pretty easy to recover from. Most students pitch
>> too high and get too abrupt a recovery. As long as your airspeed keeps
>> coming back you will eventually stall. Once you do stall, just relax
>> the back pressure a little; too many people think they have to push the
>> yoke forward. You don't, just relax a little and the nose will come
>> down enough to break the stall. You will find that you can move in and
>> out of a power on stall just bobbing the nose up and down a little. Try
>> to see how little movement you can do it with.
>>
>> Now, you might think that messing around like this you might get into a
>> spin. Well, what of it? You have your instructor along and he is
>> supposed to know how to recover from mistakes like that. Even so, it is
>> unlikely because what I have you doing is just hovering on the edge of
>> a stall. Hanging on to the center of the yoke is also going to keep you
>> from making inappropriate aileron inputs.
>>
>> Usually when a student is having trouble with landing he has not
>> prepared well enough with slow flight and ground reference maneuvers.
>> Granted, the student begins landing almost from the first lesson, but
>> serious study of landings should begin only after the basic work has
>> been mastered. I usually hold off on landing practice until just before
>> solo, but that is still about half the pre-solo work you have to do --
>> crosswind landings, recovering from landing errors, no-flap landings,
>> etc.
>>
>> Look for these common errors: not looking far enough down the runway,
>> pulling up the nose too soon ("fear of runway"), and poor airspeed
>> control. Never practice more than three landings in a row before having
>> your instructor demonstrate another one. It helps to keep from
>> developing bad landing habits.
>>
>> Don't worry about the Skyhawk's landing gear. For certification they
>> drop the plane from something like 20 feet and if the gear doesn't
>> break, it passes. I can almost guarantee that you will hurt yourself
>> before you hurt the gear, with the exception of the nose gear. If you
>> must make a bad landing, at least don't drop it on the nose gear. It
>> just is not built to take it. Neither is the propeller, engine, or
>> firewall, all of which can be easily damaged by landing on the nose
>> gear. So don't do it.
>>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Christopher Parker" > wrote in message
...
>I am having a similar issue with the stall training and I have seen my
> instructor perform the same technique you mentioned with the power on
> stall,
> but he has not explained how he achieves it. Now I know how he does it,
> but
> I still have a question. How do you prevent excessive gain in altitude if
> you do not pitch high?

Unusually high nose attitudes in power on stalls are almost always the
result of an improper set up for doing the stall. This involves excessive
energy (airspeed) that has to be bled off, especially in airplanes with
fairly powerful engines.
There's no need for an excessively high nose attitude when doing a power on
stall.
Try slowing the airplane first by throttling on back while rotating in
pitch, right on down to normal climb speed, then continue to rotate in pitch
while applying climb power to a normal climb attitude . From there simply
continue to increase pitch smoothly on into critical angle of attack where
the stall will occur.
Dudley Henriques

[Jay Beckman]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> Unusually high nose attitudes in power on stalls are almost always the
> result of an improper set up for doing the stall. This involves excessive
> energy (airspeed) that has to be bled off, especially in airplanes with
> fairly powerful engines.
> There's no need for an excessively high nose attitude when doing a power
> on stall.
> Try slowing the airplane first by throttling on back while rotating in
> pitch, right on down to normal climb speed, then continue to rotate in
> pitch while applying climb power to a normal climb attitude . From there
> simply continue to increase pitch smoothly on into critical angle of
> attack where the stall will occur.
> Dudley Henriques
>

How true...

After my first couple of attempts, my instructor (semi jokingly) admonished
me for attempting to perform a loop.

Jay B

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:9Ajlf.20$6N2.14@fed1read06...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> Unusually high nose attitudes in power on stalls are almost always the
>> result of an improper set up for doing the stall. This involves excessive
>> energy (airspeed) that has to be bled off, especially in airplanes with
>> fairly powerful engines.
>> There's no need for an excessively high nose attitude when doing a power
>> on stall.
>> Try slowing the airplane first by throttling on back while rotating in
>> pitch, right on down to normal climb speed, then continue to rotate in
>> pitch while applying climb power to a normal climb attitude . From there
>> simply continue to increase pitch smoothly on into critical angle of
>> attack where the stall will occur.
>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>
> How true...
>
> After my first couple of attempts, my instructor (semi jokingly)
> admonished me for attempting to perform a loop.

I saw Richard Petty try this at Telladega once, but the fence got in the
way and spoiled it for him.
:-)
D

[Jay Beckman]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
> news:9Ajlf.20$6N2.14@fed1read06...
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>>>
>>> Unusually high nose attitudes in power on stalls are almost always the
>>> result of an improper set up for doing the stall. This involves
>>> excessive energy (airspeed) that has to be bled off, especially in
>>> airplanes with fairly powerful engines.
>>> There's no need for an excessively high nose attitude when doing a power
>>> on stall.
>>> Try slowing the airplane first by throttling on back while rotating in
>>> pitch, right on down to normal climb speed, then continue to rotate in
>>> pitch while applying climb power to a normal climb attitude . From there
>>> simply continue to increase pitch smoothly on into critical angle of
>>> attack where the stall will occur.
>>> Dudley Henriques
>>>
>>
>> How true...
>>
>> After my first couple of attempts, my instructor (semi jokingly)
>> admonished me for attempting to perform a loop.
>
> I saw Richard Petty try this at Telladega once, but the fence got in the
> way and spoiled it for him.
> :-)
> D

LOL. I'd have to declare most of NASCAR's car-obatics closer to "Lomcvaks"
(Sp?) than anything else...

Couple of guys have done some pretty good axial rolls and the occassional
'Very Low Inverted Pass."

Jay B

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:Kfqlf.78$6N2.66@fed1read06...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> .net...
>>
>> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
>> news:9Ajlf.20$6N2.14@fed1read06...
>>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>>> k.net...
>>>>
>>>> Unusually high nose attitudes in power on stalls are almost always the
>>>> result of an improper set up for doing the stall. This involves
>>>> excessive energy (airspeed) that has to be bled off, especially in
>>>> airplanes with fairly powerful engines.
>>>> There's no need for an excessively high nose attitude when doing a
>>>> power on stall.
>>>> Try slowing the airplane first by throttling on back while rotating in
>>>> pitch, right on down to normal climb speed, then continue to rotate in
>>>> pitch while applying climb power to a normal climb attitude . From
>>>> there simply continue to increase pitch smoothly on into critical angle
>>>> of attack where the stall will occur.
>>>> Dudley Henriques
>>>>
>>>
>>> How true...
>>>
>>> After my first couple of attempts, my instructor (semi jokingly)
>>> admonished me for attempting to perform a loop.
>>
>> I saw Richard Petty try this at Telladega once, but the fence got in the
>> way and spoiled it for him.
>> :-)
>> D
>
> LOL. I'd have to declare most of NASCAR's car-obatics closer to
> "Lomcvaks" (Sp?) than anything else...
>
> Couple of guys have done some pretty good axial rolls and the occassional
> 'Very Low Inverted Pass."
>
> Jay B

:-)
I had a sort of comedy routine I'd go through in the S2 Pitts while taxiing
out to enter a lesson with a student who was going to be doing his first
Lommy.
I'd describe it to him something like this on the intercom.
"Just give me a 45 degree up line with full power and let the airspeed drain
back to 80. Then give me full right rudder, full left aileron, and full
forward stick simultaneously. Shut your eyes cause it's gonna scare the
living s**t out of you, count 3 seconds and open 'um again. You'll have done
your first Lomcevak!!!
But don't go to sleep yet!!!!!!!
At second 4 we'll be learning all about inverted spin recovery".
:-)))
Dudley

[Morgans]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote

> LOL. I'd have to declare most of NASCAR's car-obatics closer to
"Lomcvaks"
> (Sp?) than anything else...
>
> Couple of guys have done some pretty good axial rolls and the occassional
> 'Very Low Inverted Pass."

Yea, but they all bounced their landings! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Beckman]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
.net...
> I had a sort of comedy routine I'd go through in the S2 Pitts while
> taxiing out to enter a lesson with a student who was going to be doing his
> first Lommy.
> I'd describe it to him something like this on the intercom.
> "Just give me a 45 degree up line with full power and let the airspeed
> drain back to 80. Then give me full right rudder, full left aileron, and
> full forward stick simultaneously. Shut your eyes cause it's gonna scare
> the living s**t out of you, count 3 seconds and open 'um again. You'll
> have done your first Lomcevak!!!
> But don't go to sleep yet!!!!!!!
> At second 4 we'll be learning all about inverted spin recovery".
> :-)))
> Dudley

Ah, "Bonus Maneuver" !! Nice!

Jay B

[Jay Beckman]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote
>
>> LOL. I'd have to declare most of NASCAR's car-obatics closer to
> "Lomcvaks"
>> (Sp?) than anything else...
>>
>> Couple of guys have done some pretty good axial rolls and the occassional
>> 'Very Low Inverted Pass."
>
> Yea, but they all bounced their landings! <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

Gives new meaning to the old saw about "Any landing you can walk away
from..."

Jay B

[Morgans]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote

> Gives new meaning to the old saw about "Any landing you can walk away
> from..."

Yeaah, but they were definitely not great landings, cause that equipment
will *never* be able to be used again! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Beckman]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote
>
>> Gives new meaning to the old saw about "Any landing you can walk away
>> from..."
>
> Yeaah, but they were definitely not great landings, cause that equipment
> will *never* be able to be used again! <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

Aw c'mon, you aren't giving the guys in the Fab shops any credit!!

They can make chicken salad out of chickensh*t !

I'd be very suprised to find out that any chasis that a driver really likes
ever goes completely away. Sort of like a quality airframe...they get
recycled, don't they?

There...back On Topic...

;O)

Jay B

[Morgans]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote

> Aw c'mon, you aren't giving the guys in the Fab shops any credit!!
>
> They can make chicken salad out of chickensh*t !
>
> I'd be very suprised to find out that any chasis that a driver really
likes
> ever goes completely away. Sort of like a quality airframe...they get
> recycled, don't they?
>
> There...back On Topic...

Depends. One that llloops and rrrolls before they crash can't be fixed.
Once they have that many bbbends and cccracks, like Fetter's frames, they
become flower planters.

Difference is, the drivers almost always live.

See, I can stay on topic, too! <;-))
--
Jim in (the NASCAR state of) NC

[Darrel Toepfer]

Morgans wrote:
Jim in (the NASCAR state of) NC

Non
Athletic
Sport
Centered
Around
Rednecks


















;)

[Morgans]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
.. .
> Morgans wrote:
> Jim in (the NASCAR state of) NC
>
> Non
> Athletic
> Sport
> Centered
> Around
> Rednecks

Touché