Flying Club with Experimental Aircraft

[Jeff]

I know that you can not use an experimental airplane for hire or for a
rental or use it for flight training (unless you own the airplane and have
an instructor that will fly with you or you use the exemption for transition
training), but what would keep you from forming a flying club using
experimental airplanes? Each club member would own a share of the airplane
so they would not be renting the airplane when they use it. The by laws
could be written in such a way that had no reference to rent per hour.
Specify that the cost per hour was specifically for maintenance, hangar,
insurance, and fuel.

I would like to start a small LSA flying club (+ school for light sport
pilots) and have a hard time putting my arms around a $75,000-100,000
Special-LSA. I do not want students tearing up a tail dragger, so I think
(for my needs) it has to be a tricycle gear airplane. So what are my
options? I could plunk down the $75-100K for a new S-LSA or I can find a
1940's Ercoupe (only C or CD models are LSA compliant) for about $25K.

Would it be possible (legal) to create a flying club that consists of
experimental airplanes that meet the LSA requirements and use those
airplanes to train light sport pilots? The club would be a LLC and each
member would be a share holder in the company. Only club members would be
authorized to fly the airplanes just like every other flying club. There
would be a one time share purchase requirement (maybe $500-1,000), monthly
dues, and per hours costs for using (not renting) the airplane. The club
member could terminate their agreement with XX days notification and receive
a full refund of their share purchase price.

I am talking about an airplane like a Zenith 601 or something similar (would
really like to see that new RV-12). I would not skimp with the FWF set-up,
I would use a well proven set-up (O-200, O-235, 912/914 Rotax, or 3300
Jabiru). A proven aircraft design with a proven FWF package should provide
for many safe hours of operation. Yes I could buy a S-LSA 601 for about
$75K + required extras, or I could build the same thing for $45K and I could
maintain it myself (not a huge concern since I am an A&P).

It might be impossible to get insurance, I have not contacted anyone about
this yet.

What else would keep something like this from working? (please be nice)

Jeff
Dragonfly MK-IIH - N41GK

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:45:16 -0500, "Jeff" > wrote:

> I know that you can not use an experimental airplane for hire or for a
> rental or use it for flight training (unless you own the airplane and have
> an instructor that will fly with you or you use the exemption for transition
> training), but what would keep you from forming a flying club using
> experimental airplanes? Each club member would own a share of the airplane
> so they would not be renting the airplane when they use it. The by laws
> could be written in such a way that had no reference to rent per hour.
> Specify that the cost per hour was specifically for maintenance, hangar,
> insurance, and fuel.

Nothing preventing it, as far as I know. I was a member of such a club for
about seven years (the original Fly Baby, with the Fly Baby Flyers, Inc.) and
I'm aware of another club that's been operating such a way for almost fifty
years (The Story Flying Club).

Ron Wanttaja

[guynoir]

Jeff wrote:
>
> What else would keep something like this from working? (please be nice)
>
> Jeff
> Dragonfly MK-IIH - N41GK
>
>

The other members. Don't even bother writing a contract unless you're
really willing to sue someone, or otherwise enforce it. One of the
members of The Noon Patrol bought and donated a flying Taylorcraft L-2
to The Noon Patrol for the purpose of taildragger transition for
members. Zero members of the Noon Patrol actually used it as such. I
doubt if more than two or three members even flew in it, including the
guy who bought it. A free flying airplane, a hangar to put it in and
the basis for a flying club already started and we couldn't even get it
together enough to form a flying club around it. That's what you're
probably going to go up against, if you try to start something cold.
Actually, it's worse than that. You'll start the club to general
acclaim, collect small deposits from 20 people. Six months later it's
you and two other guys, one lost his medical due to senility, the other
just got divorced, lost his job and lives in his car.

I think it's a wonderful concept in theory; people helping each other
out, working together for the common good, everyone doing his share.
But that's Communism. I've tried it, it doesn't work, especially the
last part. I think your best bet would be to find a successful flying
club, join it, see how it works, become an officer in it, mine it for
recruits, then spin off a LSA club.

There was an article in Kitplanes December 2001 called "How To Start A
Flying Club". It was about a group of guys who did exactly what you
propose. Read that article, look them up if they're still around.



--
John Kimmel


I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

[Jeff]

John,

The problem that we have here in my local area is there are almost zero
aviation opportunities. I live in Rolla, MO, work on Fort Leonard
Wood, MO, and keep my airplane at Cuba, MO. Each of these 3
communities has an airport (Rolla has 2 airports) and between all the
airports there is 1 Cessna 150 available for rent.

Fort Leonard Wood is home to 3 branch schools (Engineer, Military
Police, and Chemical) and there is a considerable ammount of transient
personnel on base. The fort does not have a flying club and we have a
way underutilized joint-use regional airport. Many of the officers
that come to their advanced schools here on post are here for 6 months
to 1 year and are looking for something to do. We have made initial
contact with the installation Morale Welfare and Recreation (MWR)
office and they are interested, but have no money to help with such a
project.

In 2003 and 2004 our EAA Chapter conducted a 1 day Young Eagles event
and flew about 140 kids and 100 kids (respectively) within about a 4
hour period. There is interest in aviation here, but when someone asks
about flight training and aircraft rentals and they here that there is
just 1 Cessna 150 available to rent within 50 miles they loose
interest.

I have to travel 70 miles one way to get to the closest EAA Chapter (of
which I am the President). I just received my how to start a new EAA
Chapter kit from the EAA in the mail yesterday.....expect to see a new
EAA Chapter in MO fairly soon.

I will look through my old stack of KitPlanes for the December 2001
issue - THANKS!

Jeff


guynoir wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
> >
> > What else would keep something like this from working? (please be nice)
> >
> > Jeff
> > Dragonfly MK-IIH - N41GK
> >
> >
>
> The other members. Don't even bother writing a contract unless you're
> really willing to sue someone, or otherwise enforce it. One of the
> members of The Noon Patrol bought and donated a flying Taylorcraft L-2
> to The Noon Patrol for the purpose of taildragger transition for
> members. Zero members of the Noon Patrol actually used it as such. I
> doubt if more than two or three members even flew in it, including the
> guy who bought it. A free flying airplane, a hangar to put it in and
> the basis for a flying club already started and we couldn't even get it
> together enough to form a flying club around it. That's what you're
> probably going to go up against, if you try to start something cold.
> Actually, it's worse than that. You'll start the club to general
> acclaim, collect small deposits from 20 people. Six months later it's
> you and two other guys, one lost his medical due to senility, the other
> just got divorced, lost his job and lives in his car.
>
> I think it's a wonderful concept in theory; people helping each other
> out, working together for the common good, everyone doing his share.
> But that's Communism. I've tried it, it doesn't work, especially the
> last part. I think your best bet would be to find a successful flying
> club, join it, see how it works, become an officer in it, mine it for
> recruits, then spin off a LSA club.
>
> There was an article in Kitplanes December 2001 called "How To Start A
> Flying Club". It was about a group of guys who did exactly what you
> propose. Read that article, look them up if they're still around.
>
>
>
> --
> John Kimmel
>
>
> I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

[JKimmel]

Jeff wrote:
> John,
>

>
> I will look through my old stack of KitPlanes for the December 2001
> issue - THANKS!
>
> Jeff
>
>
> guynoir wrote:
>

>
>
I was afraid I'd been way too harsh--it was late, I was blind drunk...

--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

[Vaughn]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>I know that you can not use an experimental airplane for hire or for a rental
>or use it for flight training (unless you own the airplane and have an
>instructor that will fly with you or you use the exemption for transition
>training), but what would keep you from forming a flying club using
>experimental airplanes? Each club member would own a share of the airplane so
>they would not be renting the airplane when they use it.

It is not unusual for experimentals to be included in glider club fleets.

Vaughn

[PeterT]

Jeff,

I'm moving to MO (Richland) this winter. I'm pre-solo (was ready to
solo except for medical, still fighting that), and if I can indeed get
my medical, would be very interested in working with you on this.

You can email me at
BTW, I have access to the base, I'm retired Navy.

Jeff wrote:
Snip
>
> I would like to start a small LSA flying club (+ school for light sport
> pilots) and have a hard time putting my arms around a $75,000-100,000
> Special-LSA. I do not want students tearing up a tail dragger, so I think
> (for my needs) it has to be a tricycle gear airplane. So what are my
> options? I could plunk down the $75-100K for a new S-LSA or I can find a
> 1940's Ercoupe (only C or CD models are LSA compliant) for about $25K.
More snippage
>