Why was the SB2C refered to as the "Beast" when the TBF was bigger?

[[email protected]]

The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
and 40 foot length.
The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
carrier planes,
but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
even the F4U is
only 41 x 33.5 feet.

Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
characteristics?

That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
WW2 carriers?
(Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)

[Guy Alcala]

wrote:

> The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
> and 40 foot length.
> The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
> carrier planes,
> but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
> even the F4U is
> only 41 x 33.5 feet.
>
> Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
> characteristics?

Flying characteristics. See, for example, Eric Brown's "Duels in the Sky"
for a description of its flight characteristics. After describing them, he
summarized it thusly:

"The Helldiver was an airplane riddled with handling faults. It was a
mediocre dive-bomber and a poor deck-landing a/c with a performance that
barely bettered that of its predecessor. It was nicknamed 'The Beast', an
epithet it fully merited. In its main role as a dive-bomber it was
less-effective than the Dauntless it replaced." Another nickname for it,
based on the official designator SB2C, was "Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class". It
was not a popular a/c.

Guy

[Edwin Gless]

AF

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
> and 40 foot length.
> The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
> carrier planes,
> but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
> even the F4U is
> only 41 x 33.5 feet.
>
> Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
> characteristics?
>
> That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
> WW2 carriers?
> (Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Edwin Gless" > wrote in message
news:WOu0f.8$C51.6@trnddc07...
>
> AF
>

First flight of the Grumman Guardian was on December 19th, 1945.

[Andrew Robert Breen]

In article <WOu0f.8$C51.6@trnddc07>, Edwin Gless > wrote:
>>
>> That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
>> WW2 carriers?
>> (Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)

De Havilland Sea Mosquito? IIRC they became operational from 'carriers
shortly before VJ day. Must have been quite a prospect for deck
handling.

--
Andy Breen ~ Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
"your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
(Peter D. Rieden)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
> WW2 carriers?
> (Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)
>

It was the Doolittle Raid, the B-25 was named Mitchell.

Are you looking for the largest airplane flown from a carrier during WWII,
or the largest airplane operated from a carrier built during WWII?

[[email protected]]

On 3 Oct 2005 22:06:00 -0700, wrote:

>
>The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
>and 40 foot length.
>The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
>carrier planes,
>but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
>even the F4U is
>only 41 x 33.5 feet.
>
>Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
>characteristics?
>
>That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
>WW2 carriers?

The largest aircraft (weight and dimension) operationlly used from an
unmodified WWII ESSEX class might be the venerable and ubiquitous S2F
series.

They did not enter service until the early '50s, but did operate off
many ESSEX class boats (with both straigt and angle decks).

Bill Kambic

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Robert Breen" > wrote in message
...
>
> De Havilland Sea Mosquito? IIRC they became operational from 'carriers
> shortly before VJ day. Must have been quite a prospect for deck
> handling.
>

I don't think an operational Sea Mosquito was ever operated on a carrier.
De Havilland modified a Mosquito FB.VI with an arresting hook, the necessary
fuselage and landing gear beefup for carrier trials which were conducted in
March 1944. The trials were satisfactory and another FB.VI was modified
with folding wings. These two aircraft served as prototypes of the Sea
Mosquito, but the first Sea Mosquito wouldn't fly until some three months
after the war ended. Only fifty Sea Mosquitoes were built, they were in
operational service less than a year and operated from land bases.

[Andrew Robert Breen]

In article et>,
Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>
>"Andrew Robert Breen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> De Havilland Sea Mosquito? IIRC they became operational from 'carriers
>> shortly before VJ day. Must have been quite a prospect for deck
>> handling.

>I don't think an operational Sea Mosquito was ever operated on a carrier.
>De Havilland modified a Mosquito FB.VI with an arresting hook, the necessary
>fuselage and landing gear beefup for carrier trials which were conducted in
>March 1944. The trials were satisfactory and another FB.VI was modified
>with folding wings. These two aircraft served as prototypes of the Sea
>Mosquito, but the first Sea Mosquito wouldn't fly until some three months
>after the war ended. Only fifty Sea Mosquitoes were built, they were in
>operational service less than a year and operated from land bases.

You're right, of course. I ought to have checked before posting. My
bad..

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

[R Leonard]

Syd Bottomley did two traps and two launches in a PBJ on Shangri-La in
November 1944.

Rich

[Bob McKellar]

"R Leonard" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Syd Bottomley did two traps and two launches in a PBJ on Shangri-La in
> November 1944.
>
> Rich
>

I know quite well what a PBJ is, but I just can't break the habit of
thinking "peanut butter & jelly" every time I see one mentioned.

Bob McKellar

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from the 27C
class modified WWII carriers.

end

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
> and 40 foot length.
> The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
> carrier planes,
> but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
> even the F4U is
> only 41 x 33.5 feet.
>
> Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
> characteristics?
>
> That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
> WW2 carriers?
> (Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)
>

[R Leonard]

Funny, me too.

Rich

[Edwin Gless]

I believe that the AF was larger than the A3. The AF flew off WW2 CVEs.

"W. D. Allen Sr." > wrote in message
...
> The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from the 27C
> class modified WWII carriers.
>
> end
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
>> and 40 foot length.
>> The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
>> carrier planes,
>> but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
>> even the F4U is
>> only 41 x 33.5 feet.
>>
>> Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
>> characteristics?
>>
>> That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
>> WW2 carriers?
>> (Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)
>>
>
>

[niceguy]

Correction: The AF was larger than the AD.

"Edwin Gless" > wrote in message
news:D9C0f.2393$C51.1297@trnddc07...
>I believe that the AF was larger than the A3. The AF flew off WW2 CVEs.
>
> "W. D. Allen Sr." > wrote in message
> ...
>> The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from the 27C
>> class modified WWII carriers.
>>
>> end
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>>
>>> The Grumman TBF/TBM seems to be a pretty big plane at 54 feet wingspan
>>> and 40 foot length.
>>> The SB2C is only 50 feet by 37. I haven't looked at all World War 2
>>> carrier planes,
>>> but the TBF is bigger than the F6F (and thus F4F by default) Heck,
>>> even the F4U is
>>> only 41 x 33.5 feet.
>>>
>>> Was the name "Beast" in reference to horsepower or flying
>>> characteristics?
>>>
>>> That, brings up another question: what was the largest planes used on
>>> WW2 carriers?
>>> (Not counting B-25 for Mitchels Raid)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Edwin Gless" > wrote in message
news:D9C0f.2393$C51.1297@trnddc07...
>
> I believe that the AF was larger than the A3. The AF flew off WW2 CVEs.
>

Ehh? The A3D was more than 30' longer, had some 12' greater wingspan, and
grossed some 25 tons heavier.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"niceguy" > wrote in message
news:DdC0f.2421$C51.1337@trnddc07...
>
> Correction: The AF was larger than the AD.
>

Well, yes, but the AD was not the A3D.

[Jim]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Edwin Gless" > wrote in message
> news:D9C0f.2393$C51.1297@trnddc07...
>
>>I believe that the AF was larger than the A3. The AF flew off WW2 CVEs.
>>
>
>
> Ehh? The A3D was more than 30' longer, had some 12' greater wingspan, and
> grossed some 25 tons heavier.
>
>
50,000lbs heavier?





ACC USN ret.
NKX, BIKF, NAB, CV-63, NIR
67-69 69-71 71-74 77-80 80-85
&
74-77

Founder: RAMN (rec.aviation.military.naval)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
>
> 50,000lbs heavier?
>

Actually a bit more than that:

AF-2S maximum weight 22,565 pounds
A3D-2 maximum weight 78,000 pounds

My source is Ray Wagner's "American Combat Planes"

[niceguy]

DOH!!
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "niceguy" > wrote in message
> news:DdC0f.2421$C51.1337@trnddc07...
>>
>> Correction: The AF was larger than the AD.
>>
>
> Well, yes, but the AD was not the A3D.
>

[Peter Stickney]

W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:

> The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from
> the 27C class modified WWII carriers.

Could we count the modified P2Vs that the nuclear strike VC squadrons
were to use? They did do a number of launches from the various
Midways (Which, I think, count as WW 2 ships).
Although they did have hooks, and performed FCLPs, according to Holly
Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying in the
RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them come
aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.

--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.

[Gord Beaman]

Peter Stickney > wrote:

>W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>
>> The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from
>> the 27C class modified WWII carriers.
>
>Could we count the modified P2Vs that the nuclear strike VC squadrons
>were to use? They did do a number of launches from the various
>Midways (Which, I think, count as WW 2 ships).
>Although they did have hooks, and performed FCLPs, according to Holly
>Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying in the
>RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them come
>aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.

Pete, you know where, what and when Holly flew in the RCAF?
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Diamond Jim]

"Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
...
> W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>
> > The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from
> > the 27C class modified WWII carriers.
>
> Could we count the modified P2Vs that the nuclear strike VC squadrons
> were to use? They did do a number of launches from the various
> Midways (Which, I think, count as WW 2 ships).
> Although they did have hooks, and performed FCLPs, according to Holly
> Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying in the
> RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them come
> aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.
>
> --
> Pete Stickney
> Java Man knew nothing about coffee.

Construction on the Midways was started during WWII but it was not rushed.
When they were ordered it was realized that they would not be required
during the War, so they were planned from the beginning to combine the best
features of the carriers used during the war. A kind of "lessons learned
carrier. They had about the same aircraft complement and the same speed as
the Essexs they were 45,000 tons compared to the approximate 31,000 ton
Essexs. There were originally supposed to be six Midways, but only three
were built and they were not completed until after the war was over. IIRC
the Midways were the first US ships ordered that were designed from the
start as being too wide to fit through the Panama canal.

(The following is more useless information from someone with too much time
on their hands, because its raining and I can't go fishing. Aviation
content? Yes the BB's carried scout planes, and were on the way to the
pacific to shout down jap naval aircraft.)Yes before anyone asks the Iowa
Class BB's could and did go through the Panama Canal. I know the New Jersey
was the first through the canal going through on 7 Jan 1944. The Iowa sailed
from Norfolk (?) on 2 Jan 44 but it probably took 7 days to get to the Canal
so most likely it was the 2d one through. The Wisconsin went through at the
end of Sep '44 followed by the Missouri on 18 Nov '44. The canal locks are
officially 33 meters (108.26 feet) wide and the battleships are supposed to
be 108 feet 2 inches (or 108.66 feet) at the water line. Tight fit ?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Diamond Jim" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Construction on the Midways was started during WWII but it was not rushed.
> When they were ordered it was realized that they would not be required
> during the War, so they were planned from the beginning to combine the
> best
> features of the carriers used during the war. A kind of "lessons learned
> carrier. They had about the same aircraft complement and the same speed as
> the Essexs they were 45,000 tons compared to the approximate 31,000 ton
> Essexs. There were originally supposed to be six Midways, but only three
> were built and they were not completed until after the war was over. IIRC
> the Midways were the first US ships ordered that were designed from the
> start as being too wide to fit through the Panama canal.
>

Midway was ordered in August 1942, her keel was laid down in October 1943,
and she was launched in March 1945. It's true she wasn't commissioned until
after VJ Day, in September 1945, but just who realized by any of those
earlier dates that none of the Midway class would be required during WWII?

[Mike Weeks]

Diamond Jim wrote:

> Construction on the Midways was started during WWII but it was not rushed.
> When they were ordered it was realized that they would not be required
> during the War, so they were planned from the beginning to combine the best
> features of the carriers used during the war. A kind of "lessons learned
> carrier. ...

According to Friedman:

"Four large carriers were, therefore, included in a Maximum War Effort
shipbuilding program. President Roosevelt approved the program, with
the exception of the four carriers, on 12 August 1942. On 8 October,
after pressure from Admiral King and the General Board, he agreed to
the large carriers, but only if the General Board could certify 'that
the program for the immediate construction of smaller carriers is
adequate for the next two years' and 'that greater speed can be made in
the construction of these 45,000 ton carriers than is indicated in the
report of the General Board of September 11th.'"

Friedman covers the approval and building process in great detail. I
can not locate any reference that it was realized the Midway-class
would not be required during the war.

Had Truman decided not to drop the bomb, or if it hadn't worked
correctly at first, etc, etc.

Friedman even mentions: "In 1940, when the Midway design began, ..."

Are there references which indicate that the Midway-class wasn't rushed
and that it wasn't expected to be operational before the war would end?

MW

[Dave in San Diego]

"Diamond Jim" > wrote in
om:

>
> "Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>>
>> > The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from
>> > the 27C class modified WWII carriers.
>>
>> Could we count the modified P2Vs that the nuclear strike VC squadrons
>> were to use? They did do a number of launches from the various
>> Midways (Which, I think, count as WW 2 ships).
>> Although they did have hooks, and performed FCLPs, according to Holly
>> Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying in the
>> RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them come
>> aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.
>>
>> --
>> Pete Stickney
>> Java Man knew nothing about coffee.
>
> Construction on the Midways was started during WWII but it was not
> rushed. When they were ordered it was realized that they would not be
> required during the War, so they were planned from the beginning to
> combine the best features of the carriers used during the war. A kind
> of "lessons learned carrier. They had about the same aircraft
> complement and the same speed as the Essexs they were 45,000 tons
> compared to the approximate 31,000 ton Essexs. There were originally
> supposed to be six Midways, but only three were built and they were
> not completed until after the war was over. IIRC the Midways were the
> first US ships ordered that were designed from the start as being too
> wide to fit through the Panama canal.
>
> (The following is more useless information from someone with too much
> time on their hands, because its raining and I can't go fishing.
> Aviation content? Yes the BB's carried scout planes, and were on the
> way to the pacific to shout down jap naval aircraft.)Yes before anyone
> asks the Iowa Class BB's could and did go through the Panama Canal. I
> know the New Jersey was the first through the canal going through on 7
> Jan 1944. The Iowa sailed from Norfolk (?) on 2 Jan 44 but it probably
> took 7 days to get to the Canal so most likely it was the 2d one
> through. The Wisconsin went through at the end of Sep '44 followed by
> the Missouri on 18 Nov '44. The canal locks are officially 33 meters
> (108.26 feet) wide and the battleships are supposed to be 108 feet 2
> inches (or 108.66 feet) at the water line. Tight fit ?

Go here to see more on the New Jersey's last trip through the canal:

http://www.czbrats.com/CuPA/Jimpics/ussnj.htm

Dave

[Peter Stickney]

Gord Beaman wrote:

> Peter Stickney > wrote:
>
>>W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>>
>>> The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from
>>> the 27C class modified WWII carriers.
>>
>>Could we count the modified P2Vs that the nuclear strike VC
>>squadrons
>>were to use? They did do a number of launches from the various
>>Midways (Which, I think, count as WW 2 ships).
>>Although they did have hooks, and performed FCLPs, according to
>>Holly Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying
>>in the RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them
>>come aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.
>
> Pete, you know where, what and when Holly flew in the RCAF?

Let's see what my notes say -
He signed on with the RCAF in June 1940, and was inducted in September
'40. The Empire Air Training Scheme was slow getting started, so he
didn't report to #7 Elementary Flight Training School until January
'41. Primary was done on Fleet Finches. In March, he went to
Dauphin, Manitoba for the Service Flying Training School. Advanced
was in Harvards. He got his wings as a Sergeant Pilot on June 22,
1941.
He did a little horse trading, and was posted to England in August,
'41. He went through the Army Cooperation Command (Recce and
FIghter-Bombers, these days) OTU at Old Sarum, flying Lysanders and
Curtiss Tomahawks (P-40Bs) He was posted to RCAF 414 Squadron,
initially flying Tomahawks in the Air Cooperation Command.
414 Squadron transitioned to Mustangs Is in June '42. The first
combat missions for 414 were flown over Dieppe. During the course of
this, Holly shot down an Fw 190 - the first Mustang kill. They also
did a lot of low level recce and train busting. (Air Cooperation
Command Mustang Is were the first Allied fighters to penetrate German
airspace)

In November 1942, he transferred to the U.S. Navy, where he flew F2A
Buffalos and F4F Wildcats in transition and gunnery training. While
still a student, he spent 3 months instructing the instructors - He
was the only guy at the Miami Naval Air Station that had combat
experience. He then spent a year in the Pacific, flying F6F Hellcats
with VF-32, VF-150. and VF-97. He shot down 4 Zeros, and
participated in the Marianas Turkey Shoot.

--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.

[Sparerep]

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 01:51:29 GMT, Dave in San Diego
> wrote:

>"Diamond Jim" > wrote in
om:
>
>>
>> "Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>>>
>>> > The Douglas A3D Skywarrior was probably the biggest operated from
>>> > the 27C class modified WWII carriers.
>>>
>>> Could we count the modified P2Vs that the nuclear strike VC squadrons
>>> were to use? They did do a number of launches from the various
>>> Midways (Which, I think, count as WW 2 ships).
>>> Although they did have hooks, and performed FCLPs, according to Holly
>>> Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying in the
>>> RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them come
>>> aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Pete Stickney
>>> Java Man knew nothing about coffee.
>>
>> Construction on the Midways was started during WWII but it was not
>> rushed. When they were ordered it was realized that they would not be
>> required during the War, so they were planned from the beginning to
>> combine the best features of the carriers used during the war. A kind
>> of "lessons learned carrier. They had about the same aircraft
>> complement and the same speed as the Essexs they were 45,000 tons
>> compared to the approximate 31,000 ton Essexs. There were originally
>> supposed to be six Midways, but only three were built and they were
>> not completed until after the war was over. IIRC the Midways were the
>> first US ships ordered that were designed from the start as being too
>> wide to fit through the Panama canal.
>>
>> (The following is more useless information from someone with too much
>> time on their hands, because its raining and I can't go fishing.
>> Aviation content? Yes the BB's carried scout planes, and were on the
>> way to the pacific to shout down jap naval aircraft.)Yes before anyone
>> asks the Iowa Class BB's could and did go through the Panama Canal. I
>> know the New Jersey was the first through the canal going through on 7
>> Jan 1944. The Iowa sailed from Norfolk (?) on 2 Jan 44 but it probably
>> took 7 days to get to the Canal so most likely it was the 2d one
>> through. The Wisconsin went through at the end of Sep '44 followed by
>> the Missouri on 18 Nov '44. The canal locks are officially 33 meters
>> (108.26 feet) wide and the battleships are supposed to be 108 feet 2
>> inches (or 108.66 feet) at the water line. Tight fit ?
>
>Go here to see more on the New Jersey's last trip through the canal:
>
>http://www.czbrats.com/CuPA/Jimpics/ussnj.htm
>
>Dave

And the time lapse at Miraflores Locks at
http://www.pancanal.com/eng/photo/jersey-animation.html

Tom Debski

[Gord Beaman]

Peter Stickney > wrote:

snip of loads of good info
>
>>>Holly Hills, who flew 'em after he returned to the Navy after flying
>>>in the RCAF, they never could find a Carrier Skipper who'd let them
>>>come aboard his ship in any manner other than a crane.
>>
>> Pete, you know where, what and when Holly flew in the RCAF?

Ok, thanks Peter, I do appreciate it...I guess I got confused and
thought that he had flown P2V's in Canada...then I noticed that
you mentioned 'P2V's in the Navy' and knowing that Canada's Navy
didn't have them...thought I'd check.

Thanks much sir, you're a veritable warehouse of info!. :)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:47:18 -0400,
Bob McKellar attempted to say .....

>
> "R Leonard" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Syd Bottomley did two traps and two launches in a PBJ on Shangri-La in
> > November 1944.
> >
> > Rich
> >
>
> I know quite well what a PBJ is, but I just can't break the habit of
> thinking "peanut butter & jelly" every time I see one mentioned.
>

Not crunchie I hope ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.