CF-xxx vs. C-Fxxx

[Marc CYBW]

Hi,

Any Canadians out there know why older aircraft have a CF prefix while it
seems all newer registrations are CF- ?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marc CYBW" > wrote in message
news:rNY0f.1779$y_1.1412@edtnps89...
>
> Any Canadians out there know why older aircraft have a CF prefix while it
> seems all newer registrations are CF- ?

What's the difference?

[Marc CYBW]

Oops

The old are CF-xxx
The newer ones are C-Fxxx (The hyphen is between the C and F (or C and G in
some cases, as in C-GMTF)

Marc



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Marc CYBW" > wrote in message
> news:rNY0f.1779$y_1.1412@edtnps89...
>>
>> Any Canadians out there know why older aircraft have a CF prefix while it
>> seems all newer registrations are CF- ?
>
> What's the difference?
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marc CYBW" > wrote in message
news:zkZ0f.1796$y_1.286@edtnps89...
>
> Oops
>
> The old are CF-xxx
> The newer ones are C-Fxxx (The hyphen is between the C and F (or C and G
> in some cases, as in C-GMTF)
>

Still doesn't look like a significant difference to me. Why bother with the
hyphen at all?

[[email protected]]

When I was learning to fly in '73 the change in
registrations came about. They had run out of CF numbers, having run
through CF-AAA to CF-ZZZ, with some left out for obvious reasons, so
they went to the C- format, starting with C-GXXX, and as older
airplanes were repainted they were converted from CF-ABC to C-FABC.
Ultralights became C-IXXX airplanes.
Some conversions were hilarious, like a 172 not far from here:
C-FEAR.

The dash conforms with most of the rest of the world's
formats. Britain is G-XXXX, Germany D-XXXX, and so on. I have a book at
work that lists them all. Some have a single letter prefix, some have
two.

Dan

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> When I was learning to fly in '73 the change in registrations came about.
> They had run out of CF numbers, having run through CF-AAA to CF-ZZZ,
> with some left out for obvious reasons, so they went to the C- format,
> starting with C-GXXX, and as older airplanes were repainted they were
> converted from CF-ABC to C-FABC.
>

They had run out of numbers?

[Marc CYBW]

Thanks!

Marc


> wrote in message
ups.com...
> When I was learning to fly in '73 the change in
> registrations came about. They had run out of CF numbers, having run
> through CF-AAA to CF-ZZZ, with some left out for obvious reasons, so
> they went to the C- format, starting with C-GXXX, and as older
> airplanes were repainted they were converted from CF-ABC to C-FABC.
> Ultralights became C-IXXX airplanes.
> Some conversions were hilarious, like a 172 not far from here:
> C-FEAR.
>
> The dash conforms with most of the rest of the world's
> formats. Britain is G-XXXX, Germany D-XXXX, and so on. I have a book at
> work that lists them all. Some have a single letter prefix, some have
> two.
>
> Dan
>

[George Patterson]

wrote:
> When I was learning to fly in '73 the change in
> registrations came about. They had run out of CF numbers, having run
> through CF-AAA to CF-ZZZ, with some left out for obvious reasons, so
> they went to the C- format, starting with C-GXXX, and as older
> airplanes were repainted they were converted from CF-ABC to C-FABC.

So, as older planes are repainted, they'll run out of numbers again. Sort of
defeats the avowed purpose of changing the scheme.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:qm01f.9782$_a6.6030@trndny02...
>
> So, as older planes are repainted, they'll run out of numbers again. Sort
> of defeats the avowed purpose of changing the scheme.
>

What numbers?

[Morgans]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote

> They had run out of numbers?

Steven, did you just make a funny? I didn't know you had it in you! <g>

Still, you should put a <g> or :-) or something, just so that the unknowing
don't think that you are ignorant or something. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"George Patterson" > wrote

> So, as older planes are repainted, they'll run out of numbers again. Sort
of
> defeats the avowed purpose of changing the scheme.

Not really. By having another letter, you get 25 times the number of
possible combinations. That should last for a while.
--
Jim in NC

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-06, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> What numbers?

A-Z of course. Letters can be numbers, too. I often need to count from
0-F instead of 0-9.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[RV9]

> Not really. By having another letter, you get 25 times the number of
> possible combinations. That should last for a while.

Actually, they have C-Fxxx C-Gxxx C-Ixxx (for ultralights). This gives three
times more combinations. While other letter combinations are available, some
are already in use (countries such as Chile CC, Cuba CU, Nauru C2, Morocco
CN, Mozambique C9, Uruguay Cx). See
http://www.lentoturvallisuushallinto.fi/aircraftnational for a list (note
that Canada is missing the CG... probably a typo).

[[email protected]]

>(note
>that Canada is missing the CG... probably a typo).

Not a typo. It lists C and CF as prefixes. C is the current style, and
CF the old style still on many airplanes. It gets converted to C-FXXX
upon repaint. There are no CG-XXX airplanes.
A related funny: Four of five years ago we were flying a 180 to
Tucson, via Salt Lake. Here's how the conversation went:
Us: "Salt Lake Terminal, Canadian Cessna 180 Charlie Foxtrot India
Alpha Charlie 15 miles North at 7500, Southbound for Provo."
Them: "Canadian 180 Charlia Indie Alph...." Click.
Them: "Canadian 180 Charlie Alphia Ind..." Click.
Them: "Canadian 180 Charlia Alphia..." Click.
Them: (laughter in background): "Canadian 180, stay east of the
highway."

Dan


Dan

[RV9]

> There are no CG-XXX airplanes.

I beg to differ, as I currently fly a C-Gxxx plane.

You can also search the database at the TC site
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepages/ccarcs/en/default_e.asp?x_lang=e
for available marks, and see that there are plenty of C-G availble.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> Steven, did you just make a funny? I didn't know you had it in you! <g>
>
> Still, you should put a <g> or :-) or something, just so that the
> unknowing
> don't think that you are ignorant or something. ;-)
>

It's not much of a funny if you have to tell people when to laugh.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not really. By having another letter, you get 25 times the number of
> possible combinations. That should last for a while.
>

Does Canada use a 25 letter alphabet? Which one got canned?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> A-Z of course. Letters can be numbers, too. I often need to count from
> 0-F instead of 0-9.
>

When are letters numbers?

[RST Engineering]

When you count in hexadecimal. The hexadecimal digits are 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 A B C D E F

Jim


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> A-Z of course. Letters can be numbers, too. I often need to count from
>> 0-F instead of 0-9.
>>
>
> When are letters numbers?
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> When you count in hexadecimal. The hexadecimal digits are 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
> 8 9 A B C D E F
>

When did Canada begin using hexadecimal for aircraft registrations?

[Andre]

My favourite was flying to Chicago and being called

November Charlie Golf Mike Papa Hotel

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> >(note
> >that Canada is missing the CG... probably a typo).
>
> Not a typo. It lists C and CF as prefixes. C is the current style, and
> CF the old style still on many airplanes. It gets converted to C-FXXX
> upon repaint. There are no CG-XXX airplanes.
> A related funny: Four of five years ago we were flying a 180 to
> Tucson, via Salt Lake. Here's how the conversation went:
> Us: "Salt Lake Terminal, Canadian Cessna 180 Charlie Foxtrot India
> Alpha Charlie 15 miles North at 7500, Southbound for Provo."
> Them: "Canadian 180 Charlia Indie Alph...." Click.
> Them: "Canadian 180 Charlie Alphia Ind..." Click.
> Them: "Canadian 180 Charlia Alphia..." Click.
> Them: (laughter in background): "Canadian 180, stay east of the
> highway."
>
> Dan
>
>
> Dan
>

[James Robinson]

"RV9" > wrote:

>> There are no CG-XXX airplanes.
>
> I beg to differ, as I currently fly a C-Gxxx plane.

C is the prefix in that case. There are no CG prefixes.

[James Robinson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

>
> > wrote:
>>
>> Not really. By having another letter, you get 25 times the number of
>> possible combinations. That should last for a while.
>
> Does Canada use a 25 letter alphabet? Which one got canned?

eh? (A)

[N93332]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
>> Does Canada use a 25 letter alphabet? Which one got canned?
>
> eh? (A)

The old joke as how Canada got named. They picked 3 tiles from a Scrabble
bag; C-eh, N-eh and D, eh...

[RST Engineering]

They didn't. You asked when a letter could be a number. I answered.

Jim






"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "RST Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> When you count in hexadecimal. The hexadecimal digits are 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
>> 7 8 9 A B C D E F
>>
>
> When did Canada begin using hexadecimal for aircraft registrations?
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> They didn't. You asked when a letter could be a number. I answered.
>

Abandoning context in the process.

[Montblack]

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
>> Not really. By having another letter, you get 25 times the number of
>> possible combinations. That should last for a while.

> Does Canada use a 25 letter alphabet? Which one got canned?


Is there an n-1 thing going on here?


Montblack

[Garner Miller]

In article . net>,
Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> When did Canada begin using hexadecimal for aircraft registrations?

I think back in B16F.


<grin>

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

[Jose]

>>They didn't. You asked when a letter could be a number. I answered.
>
> Abandoning context in the process.

Well Steven, you just done ruined my irony meter!

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline - fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dave]

Heh...heh...heh...

Dave


On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:48:09 GMT, Garner Miller >
wrote:

>In article . net>,
>Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>
>> When did Canada begin using hexadecimal for aircraft registrations?
>
>I think back in B16F.
>
>
><grin>

[Rob McDonald]

wrote in news:1128608541.181807.32110
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>>(note
>>that Canada is missing the CG... probably a typo).
>
> Not a typo. It lists C and CF as prefixes. C is the current style, and
> CF the old style still on many airplanes.

>It gets converted to C-FXXX upon repaint...

Not necessarily. Aircraft built before some cutoff date (1974?) may keep
the CF-XXX style of registration if they wish. I think that you still
appear in the TC database as C-FXXX.

Rob McDonald
1946 Aeronca 7AC
CF-RWQ

[[email protected]]

>Not necessarily. Aircraft built before some cutoff >date (1974?) may keep
>the CF-XXX style of registration if they wish. I think >that you still
>appear in the TC database as C-FXXX.

Here's what CAR 202.03 says:

202.03 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the nationality mark in respect
of a Canadian aircraft is the letter "C" and the registration mark in
respect of the aircraft is a combination of four letters specified by
the Minister.
(2) Subject to subsection (3), where an aircraft was registered in
Canada before January 1, 1974 or is a vintage aircraft,
(a) the nationality mark in respect of the aircraft is the letters "CF"
and the registration mark in respect of the aircraft is a combination
of three letters specified by the Minister; or
(b) the nationality mark in respect of the aircraft is the letter "C"
and the registration mark in respect of the aircraft is a combination
of four letters specified by the Minister.
(3) Where the owner of an aircraft, other than a vintage aircraft, that
has the letters "CF" as its nationality mark and a combination of three
letters as its registration mark repaints the aircraft, the owner
shall, prior to operating the aircraft, change the nationality mark to
the letter "C" and the registration mark to the letter "F" followed by
the combination of three letters.
(4) Where the owner of an aircraft changes its marks pursuant to
subsection (3) or the owner of a vintage aircraft changes its
nationality mark from "C" to "CF" or from "CF" to "C", followed by the
appropriate registration mark, the owner shall, prior to operating the
aircraft, notify the Minister in writing of the change, and the
Minister shall change the marks accordingly in the Canadian Civil
Aircraft Register and issue a new registration certificate to reflect
the change.

According to section (3), vintage aircraft can keep the old marks.
Here's their definition of vintage:

"vintage aircraft" - means an aircraft that was manufactured prior to
January 1, 1957. (CAR 200.01)

You were right: there are exceptions for old airplanes. There are
still compassionate people in government!

Dan

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-06, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> When are letters numbers?

Generally in any base > base 10. Base 36 for instance uses the digits 0
to Z - so every letter of the alphabet is a number.

Hex is very common (0-F), but we do have one system that uses base 36.
Base 64 encoding is also common (in which case 'a' is a different number
to 'A')

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-10-06, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>>
>> When are letters numbers?
>>
>
> Generally in any base > base 10. Base 36 for instance uses the digits 0
> to Z - so every letter of the alphabet is a number.
>
> Hex is very common (0-F), but we do have one system that uses base 36.
> Base 64 encoding is also common (in which case 'a' is a different number
> to 'A')
>

In the base that Canada uses for aircraft registration, when are letters
numbers?

[RST Engineering]

That wasn't the question you asked.

Jim



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...

>
> In the base that Canada uses for aircraft registration, when are letters
> numbers?
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> That wasn't the question you asked.
>

Context.

[RST Engineering]

Steve, ya screwed up asking the question. You can't be the invincible SPMc
without admitting a typing lapse, can ya?

Either admit to a lapse in questioning or affirm your claim to
infallibility. Your choice. You COULD possibly be elected the next Pope.

Jim



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "RST Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> That wasn't the question you asked.
>>
>
> Context.
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> Steve, ya screwed up asking the question.
>

Did I? Please explain how.


>
> You can't be the invincible SPMc without admitting a typing lapse, can ya?
>
> Either admit to a lapse in questioning or affirm your claim to
> infallibility. Your choice. You COULD possibly be elected the next Pope.
>


Lapse in questioning? Upon reviewing the thread the question still makes
perfect sense, unless one ignores the context in which it was asked. Could
you cite this "claim to infallibility", I don't recall making any such
claim.

[Montblack]

("RST Engineering" wrote)
> Either admit to a lapse in questioning or affirm your claim to
> infallibility. Your choice. You COULD possibly be elected the next Pope.


Great. Another Wisconsin Pope.
http://words.yovo.info/img/panzerfaust-s.jpg


Montblack

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-08, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> In the base that Canada uses for aircraft registration, when are letters
> numbers?

All of them, as previously explained.

(As an aside to all the pedantry that's bouncing around this thread, I
think you must realise that 'numbers' is just an American figure of
speech; after all, in the US plane registrations are colloquially known
as 'N numbers', even though quite frequently the last one or two digits
is a letter, and is probably not intended to be base 36! In most other
countries, we just colloquially know our registrations as 'G-reg' or
'D-reg' or.. etc. without even mentioning the word 'numbers'. In this
part of the world, car registration plates are colloquially known as 'number
plates' even though they don't just have numbers, well, unless you live
in Guernsey).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> All of them, as previously explained.
>

Previous "explanations" were out of context.


>
> (As an aside to all the pedantry that's bouncing around this thread, I
> think you must realise that 'numbers' is just an American figure of
> speech; after all, in the US plane registrations are colloquially known
> as 'N numbers', even though quite frequently the last one or two digits
> is a letter, and is probably not intended to be base 36!
>

In what part of America is 'numbers' just an American figure of speech? US
plane registrations are colloquially known as 'N numbers' because they are
predominantly numbers. Many are exclusively numbers.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-10, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> In what part of America is 'numbers' just an American figure of speech?i

The United States Of.

> US
> plane registrations are colloquially known as 'N numbers' because they are
> predominantly numbers. Many are exclusively numbers.

But not all. People still call their plane registration 'their N-number'
when it's something like N23AD even though the last two characters are
letters.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> The United States Of.
>

That's not the case. Where did you get your information?


>
> But not all. People still call their plane registration 'their N-number'
> when it's something like N23AD even though the last two characters are
> letters.
>

You still don't understand. Every US registration has numbers, that's why
they call them N-numbers.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-11, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>> But not all. People still call their plane registration 'their N-number'
>> when it's something like N23AD even though the last two characters are
>> letters.
>
> You still don't understand. Every US registration has numbers, that's why
> they call them N-numbers.

So which base are they in? And if they aren't base 10, why can't we call
Canadian registrations C-numbers?

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Mark T. Dame]

Dylan Smith wrote:
>
>>US
>>plane registrations are colloquially known as 'N numbers' because they are
>>predominantly numbers. Many are exclusively numbers.
>
> But not all. People still call their plane registration 'their N-number'
> when it's something like N23AD even though the last two characters are
> letters.

N-numbers, tail numbers, or (for cars) license plate numbers. For that
matter, driver's license number. It seems that most identification
codes, whether they be purely numeric or alphanumeric are referred to as
"numbers". Therefore, letters are numbers when they are part of an
identification code, et al.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"An overpowering need for something is the maternal progenitor
of a discovery of new ideas."

[Jose]

> You still don't understand. Every US registration has numbers, that's why
> they call them N-numbers.

Don't confuse "contains" with "is".

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> So which base are they in?
>

A US registration number may have up to five symbols in addition to the
prefix letter "N". These symbols may be all numbers, one to four numbers
and one suffix letter, or one to three numbers and two suffix letters. The
letters "I" and "O" are not be used. The first zero in a number must always
be preceded by at least one of the numbers 1 through 9. The registration
number has no numeric value.


>
> And if they aren't base 10, why can't we call
> Canadian registrations C-numbers?
>

Canadian registrations do not use numbers. You can call them "C-numbers" if
you like, I suppose, but doing so only makes you appear stupid.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Don't confuse "contains" with "is".
>

I won't.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-12, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> Canadian registrations do not use numbers. You can call them "C-numbers" if
> you like, I suppose, but doing so only makes you appear stupid.

Ah. So just like calling a registration like N23AD "your N numbers" also
appears stupid?

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ah. So just like calling a registration like N23AD "your N numbers" also
> appears stupid?
>

No, as 2 and 3 actually ARE numbers.

[Montblack]

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
>> Ah. So just like calling a registration like N23AD "your N numbers" also
>> appears stupid?

> No, as 2 and 3 actually ARE numbers.


N numbers is a general usage term.
N numbers include letters.
C numbers (Canada) include more letters.

We're into parking in a driveway, driving on a parkway territory here.


Montblack

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>
> N numbers is a general usage term.
> N numbers include letters.
> C numbers (Canada) include more letters.
>

But Canadian registrations don't include any numbers.


>
> We're into parking in a driveway, driving on a parkway territory here.
>

No, you're just being silly.

[Jose]

>> Ah. So just like calling a registration like N23AD "your N numbers" also
>> appears stupid?
> No, as 2 and 3 actually ARE numbers.
>

Didn't you just agree not to confuse "contains" with "is"?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>
> Didn't you just agree not to confuse "contains" with "is"?
>

Yup.