Experimentals and flight training

[Chris Wells]

I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?

[Bret Ludwig]

Richard Riley wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:01:32 +0100, Chris Wells
> > wrote:
> :
> :I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
> :pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
> :flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
> :anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
> :then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>
> You can use an experimental amateur built that you own for your own
> flight training, but it's going to be hard to fit you and an
> instructor in a Hummelbird.

Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????

[[email protected]]

Bret Ludwig wrote:

> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????

----------------------------------------

Ask the Wright brothers :-)

-R.S.Hoover

[Morgans]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote

> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????

To be able to afford getting a pilot's "certificate" perhaps. It is done
relatively frequently.
--
Jim in NC

[Chris Wells]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote

Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????




Because I'm in training now, and even if I can't learn in the Hummelbird, I'lll still be able to fly it when I get my PP.

Wow, lotta nonsense on this board.

[Wayne Paul]

> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????-
>
>

Maybe because he likes to build.

I have known several people who build airplanes, sale them and start on a
new project. For many building is their hobby.

There is an old saying: "If you want to build - then by all means build.
However, if you want to fly - then buy."

Respectfully,

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[UltraJohn]

Chris Wells wrote:

>
> Morgans Wrote:
>> "Bret Ludwig" wrote
>> -
>> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????-
>>
>>
>
>
> Because I'm in training now, and even if I can't learn in the
> Hummelbird, I'lll still be able to fly it when I get my PP.
>
> Wow, lotta nonsense on this board.
>
>
Yes Chris that comes with the territory when you go to an open BB. But you
can also get a lot of good info you just need to be willing to ignore the
idiots and listen to the ones who know and care. If you ask honest
questions you will get some appropriate replies. There are a few that hang
out on these and other BB's (some using multiple names on different boards)
that get there rocks off on batting people and being all around jerks. It
only takes a little monitoring to figure out who these people are then you
can filter them out of your system and will have a lot higher quotient of
good to bad comments!
Like I said this is an open BB you need to work within those limitations and
you can get some good info.
John

PS somepeople build homebuilts just for the love of the process. Nothing
wrong with that!

[OtisWinslow]

Chris,

Mr Ludwig doesn't have much nice to say and spends his time with
smart ass replies and flame bait. I suspect he's not a pilot.

You'll find plenty of helpful replies from those who are REAL pilots
and builders.


"Chris Wells" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Wow, lotta nonsense on this board.
> Chris Wells

[Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:01:32 +0100, Chris Wells
> wrote:
>>:
>>:I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
>>:pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
>>:flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
>>:anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
>>:then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>>
>>You can use an experimental amateur built that you own for your own
>>flight training, but it's going to be hard to fit you and an
>>instructor in a Hummelbird.
>
>
> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????
>

Why do you feel the need to be rude? Did it ever occur to you he
might just want to do it? I'll never get my medical back, does this mean
I should stop building?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[W P Dixon]

> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????
>>
> Maybe,
For the same reason I started working on cars and rebuilding them
when I was to young to have a drivers license....ANTICIPATION! ;)

Now going for my sport pilot cert after 20 years of working on other
peoples airplanes, don't have a cert yet! But by golly it sure is time I
work on MY plane instead of someone else's.

Be it a car, an airplane or a lawnmower for goodness sake if you have
the time and energy see what makes it tick ...and most important get your
children involved in it! Go build young man I say!!!!

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech ( for personal purposes only now ;) )

[Morgans]

"Chris Wells" > wrote in message
...
>
> Morgans Wrote:
> > "Bret Ludwig" wrote
> > -
> > Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????-
> >
> >
>
>
> Because I'm in training now, and even if I can't learn in the
> Hummelbird, I'lll still be able to fly it when I get my PP.
>
> Wow, lotta nonsense on this board.
>
>
> --
> Chris Wells

Chris, be careful how you trim and respond to posts. Let if be known that I
DID NOT post the comment:

"Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????-"
--
Jim in NC

[Jerry Springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:01:32 +0100, Chris Wells
> wrote:
>>:
>>:I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
>>:pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
>>:flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
>>:anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
>>:then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>>
>>You can use an experimental amateur built that you own for your own
>>flight training, but it's going to be hard to fit you and an
>>instructor in a Hummelbird.
>
>
> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????
>
Why do people like you hang out here??????????? You have made some of
the most asinine statements lately. You don't seem to have a grasp of
reality or understand why some people like to build and fly homebuilts.

Jerry

[Ernest Christley]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:01:32 +0100, Chris Wells
> wrote:
>>:
>>:I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
>>:pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
>>:flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
>>:anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
>>:then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>>
>>You can use an experimental amateur built that you own for your own
>>flight training, but it's going to be hard to fit you and an
>>instructor in a Hummelbird.
>
>
> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????
>

And "The Chief" said:

"Because I don't have anything else."

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Bret Ludwig]

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired wrote:
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Why do you feel the need to be rude? Did it ever occur to you he
> might just want to do it? I'll never get my medical back, does this mean
> I should stop building?


That's your decision.

I did not lose my medical, but I did not renew it because I knew I
would have a hell of a time getting waivered even for a third class,
and a second class would be effectively out of the question.

My intent was not rudeness, but getting to the crux of the matter. If
one hasn't any flying experience, how does one know one will even be
able to learn to fly or enjoy it enough to bother?

Many people who dream of flying for years, get money, plunge into it,
and quit because it is not what they imagined. Others just never pick
up the necessary skills and either decide themselves to quit, or have,
in some cases, multiple flight instructors and check pilots finally
impress this on them. Some get licensed and are stopped only in a fatal
crash.

If you want to build an airplane with the intention of someone else
flying it, as long as profit is NOT the prime goal (if it is,
Experimental Amateur Built is neither proper nor ethical, although
restoring standard category or building custom aerobatic competition,
racing, or R&D aircraft would be okay)I can find nothing intrinsically
wrong with that. But it would be unusual.

In any event, even though I think a homebuilt is an unusual and
generally poor platform for learning to fly in, it's possible-but only
if it's a two-seater with dual controls. The Hummelbird is not.

[Ken Reynolds]

Well Said
GOOD for you Bob
Ken Reynolds
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
>> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Ask the Wright brothers :-)
>
> -R.S.Hoover
>

[Chris Wells]

I've been a pilot for years, I just don't have a license.

My favorite story when I was a kid was that of the Wright brothers. I've always been able to fly in my dreams. When I was maybe 9 years old I built a "glider" out of sticks, poles, trash bags & duct tape and jumped off of the roof of my parent's shed. This was after trying the same thing with an umbrella to see how slowly I'd fall.
I've been flying hang gliders for 5 years now, and I've learned a few things that even most GA pilots don't know. I've got 10 hours in "real" aircraft now, and I'm waiting for my medical so I can solo. I'll definitely get my license, and when I finish my Hummelbird I'll definitely fly it. I'll probably end up getting an ultralight sooner or later as well.

I'm well aware of the fact that in most BB's there are a few pearls of wisdom among the waste; somehow I just assumed that a board of this nature would have less of the waste. My comment wasn't just about what was said to me; I've been lurking on this board for a while, and I've read a bunch of silly posts.
(Does the word "Zoom" ring any bells?)

I've also read some interesting stuff, and I'm glad there are so many experienced pilots & builders here willing to share their knowledge. I'm grateful to those who do, and my hat's off to them.

[RST Engineering]

Will they kick their "and" as well?

Jim



"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

People get even more brazen with their comments, when
> no one will ever be able to "kick their but" in person.

[Morgans]

"Chris Wells" > wrote

> I'm well aware of the fact that in most BB's there are a few pearls
> of wisdom among the waste; somehow I just assumed that a board of this
> nature would have less of the waste.

There will always be swine, among the pearls. <g> That said, there is a lot
to be gained by putting up with it. I have found that those who are not
really interested will come for a while, crap all over the place, then
leave. There are exceptions to the rule.

Some people are real knowledgeable, and just have a bad attitude, and are
hard to get along with. Do you know any people like that, in the real
world? Sure you do. People get even more brazen with their comments, when
no one will ever be able to "kick their but" in person. That is the bad
side of human nature, I guess. My advise is to put people in a kill filter
who really offend you, and put up with the borderline cases. It make things
easier, and also takes less time to read. <g> Putting up with it is
worthwhile, in my opinion. At any rate, welcome to the group.
--
Jim in NC

[Ernest Christley]

Bret Ludwig wrote:

> If you want to build an airplane with the intention of someone else
> flying it, as long as profit is NOT the prime goal (if it is,
> Experimental Amateur Built is neither proper nor ethical, although
> restoring standard category or building custom aerobatic competition,
> racing, or R&D aircraft would be okay)I can find nothing intrinsically
> wrong with that. But it would be unusual.
>


Only slightly more unusual than someone building at all. I know of one
person who only wants to PAINT airplanes. Doesn't even care about
building them. Just design paint schemes and polish and buff all day.
Go figure.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Bob Martin]

> I have known several people who build airplanes, sale them and start
on a
> new project. For many building is their hobby.
>
> There is an old saying: "If you want to build - then by all means build.
> However, if you want to fly - then buy."

Funny... I've noticed that, with the exception of the FBO aircraft, the
homebuilders are the only ones at our airport that ever seem to do any
flying... and we do a lot of it.

[Mike Gaskins]

I knew I couldn't be the only BSG fan here. "Flight of the Phoenix"
was my favorite episode :D.

[Morgans]

"RST Engineering" > wrote

> Will they kick their "and" as well?

Don't ass me to repeat it!
--
Jim in NC

[Bret Ludwig]

Jerry Springer wrote:

<<snip>>
> Why do people like you hang out here??????????? You have made some of
> the most asinine statements lately. You don't seem to have a grasp of
> reality or understand why some people like to build and fly homebuilts.

People do an infinite many things for an infinite many reasons, but
some tend to be successful and some tend to end up in a lot of money
spent with dismal results, and some others result in an inordinate
percentage of people being killed.

I grew up on an airport and have worked in line service, avionics
shops, aircraft parts and a few other things. I have seen people work
on projects for ten years, lose their medical, their money or their
interest and never fly, more than once. I have also seen people DIE,
right in front of me. I have watched people take off thinking they
would be back in an hour or a day and heard they had crashed shortly
thereafter. In one case a family of four, two killed, one paralyzed,
fourth killed herself two weeks later. Another case pilot alone, just
licensed, own airplane (a certified factory one) he had worked for
_years_ for, decided didn't need insurance(!). Walked out without a
scratch, totalled a/c, never flew again. Knew another homebuilder sold
a project 95% complete, guy finished, crashed and died, widow harassed
him for years-builder's wife left him due to harassment/fear.

Pointing out bad ideas is my right and obligation. You are free to
disagree. But we are never going to have more than 1/3 of 1 percent of
the population flying unless the personal aviation ndustry takes
responsibility for its own. And experimentals, like it or not, are a
big part of the industry. And if personal aviation does not grow to
where it is at least as big as, say, riding modified motorcycles, it
won't have the political clout not to be legislated out of existence
like in Europe and Asia. Less than two million active pilots in the US
means it's a precarious thing. Most people in this hobby are actually
stuck up and anti-growth-they like uncrowdwd skies-but unless you are a
multimillionaire you no longer are able to fly in most countries.

[Capt. Geoffry Thorpe]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>>
> Why does a person with no pilot's license build a homebuilt???????
>

Why would a person get a pilot's license if his/her homebuilt isn't done
yet???????

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:52:09 -0400, "Capt. Geoffry Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:

>Why would a person get a pilot's license if his/her homebuilt isn't done
>yet???????

Oh that's an easy one: So they can legally fly it when it's done!

What did I win? ;-)

It is in fact what I ended up doing, although ultimately I decided
that I would not complete my project and have now managed to sell it.
But I still fly when the weather is nice.

Corky Scott

[[email protected]]

I see you got many replies, none of which address your question.

I don't think there is a FAR that prohibits training in an
experimental, but your operating limitations more than likely will,
with possible exceptions. Many of the FARs explicitly state that they
don't apply to experimentals (Part 43, for example), but the FAA adds a
few rules back in that it considers important by stuffing them into
your operating limitations that come with your airwrthiness
certificate. For example, the OLs for my RV-6 state that it cannot be
used for commercial purposes, including flight training. It can be
used, however, for my personal training, and in fact it was used for me
to earn my tailwheel endorsement. I can't turn around and use it to
train another student, though. Nor can I use it to tow a banner. It's
hard to guess how they're going to view a Hummelbird compared to
something like an RV-9A.

This will more than likely ultimately come down to a "negotiation" with
the FAA inspector that signs off on your airworthiness certificate.

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer (which I'm sure will be well proven in the
ensuing and inevitable flames), and I could be completely full of crap
(which will also be alleged). I can only tell you what's in my OLs
because I've read them. I don't know what your experience will be.
Best bet would be to contact the airworthiness inspector at your
regional FSDO - he's the guy you'll be working with.

Chris Wells wrote:
> I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
> pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
> flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
> anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
> then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>
>
> --
> Chris Wells

[[email protected]]

I see you got many replies, none of which address your question.

I don't think there is a FAR that prohibits training in an
experimental, but your operating limitations more than likely will,
with possible exceptions. Many of the FARs explicitly state that they
don't apply to experimentals (Part 43, for example), but the FAA adds a
few rules back in that it considers important by stuffing them into
your operating limitations that come with your airwrthiness
certificate. For example, the OLs for my RV-6 state that it cannot be
used for commercial purposes, including flight training. It can be
used, however, for my personal training, and in fact it was used for me
to earn my tailwheel endorsement. I can't turn around and use it to
train another student, though. Nor can I use it to tow a banner. It's
hard to guess how they're going to view a Hummelbird compared to
something like an RV-9A.

This will more than likely ultimately come down to a "negotiation" with
the FAA inspector that signs off on your airworthiness certificate.

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer (which I'm sure will be well proven in the
ensuing and inevitable flames), and I could be completely full of crap
(which will also be alleged). I can only tell you what's in my OLs
because I've read them. I don't know what your experience will be.
Best bet would be to contact the airworthiness inspector at your
regional FSDO - he's the guy you'll be working with.

Chris Wells wrote:
> I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
> pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
> flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
> anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
> then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>
>
> --
> Chris Wells

[Chris Wells]

I've talked to the guys in my club, and I've been told that there's nothing that says you can't use an experimental aircraft towards your PP...however, since the Hummelbird is a single place aircraft, I've been told it'll be next to impossible to find someone willing to sign me off on it, for liability reasons I guess.

[Anthony]

Chris Wells wrote:

>I'm building a Hummelbird, and I was hoping to use it towards my private
>pilot's license, but I've heard that I can't use an experimental for
>flight training. I looked through my FARAIM '97 and I can't find
>anything to verify that. Has anything changed regarding this since
>then? Can someone point me to the relevant regulations?
>
>
>
>
Chris a new FAR AIM is only 15 bucks...I do not think your dream will
come true. I think your time towards a PPL will need to be logged in a
craft for which the license applies.

Tony

[dodger]

I know it is possible to get a sport pilots certificate in a single
place aircraft, but you will be restricted to flying that make/model
and no passengers until you later get checked out in a different craft.

[George Eberhardt]

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
m...
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
> > If you want to build an airplane with the intention of someone else
> > flying it, as long as profit is NOT the prime goal (if it is,
> > Experimental Amateur Built is neither proper nor ethical, although
> > restoring standard category or building custom aerobatic competition,
> > racing, or R&D aircraft would be okay)I can find nothing intrinsically
> > wrong with that. But it would be unusual.
> >
>
>
> Only slightly more unusual than someone building at all. I know of one
> person who only wants to PAINT airplanes. Doesn't even care about
> building them. Just design paint schemes and polish and buff all day.
> Go figure.

>
I could use his name and phone number! <g>

--
George Eberhardt
(732)224-8988