position and hold at an angle

[Jose]

A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
be straight on.

So, I guess I was wrong. (dang - that's twice now!)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
> McNicoll that it was a good idea.
>
> I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
> any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
> still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
> be straight on.

You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

[.Blueskies.]

"john smith" > wrote in message ...
> In article >,
> Jose > wrote:
>
>> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
>> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
>> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
>> McNicoll that it was a good idea.
>>
>> I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
>> any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
>> still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
>> be straight on.
>
> You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
> and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

I don't do a 360, but I do turn toward the approach end and look and then turn on to the runway...

[BTIZ]

Position and hold is normally used at tower controlled airports..

At uncontrolled airports.. I do not plan on taxing onto the active unless I
can take off right away.
And from behind the hold line I can see most of the base and all of the
final whilst sitting with my nose 90 degrees to the take off direction.

BT

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jose > wrote:
>
>> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
>> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
>> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
>> McNicoll that it was a good idea.
>>
>> I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
>> any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
>> still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
>> be straight on.
>
> You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
> and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

[Jose]

> You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
> and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

The point was to be able to have a continuous watch behind you while
waiting for takeoff, while at the same time being ready for an immediate
takeoff (the fraction of a second it takes to turn 30 degrees while on
the roll is insignificant).

Doing donuts on the numbers while awaiting takeoff clearance gives a new
meaning to "position and hold... whoa there... yee haw!... comone little
dawgiee..."

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sylvain]

BTIZ wrote:
> Position and hold is normally used at tower controlled airports..
> At uncontrolled airports.. I do not plan on taxing onto the active unless I
> can take off right away.
> And from behind the hold line I can see most of the base and all of the
> final whilst sitting with my nose 90 degrees to the take off direction.

that's what I was thinking too... however, there are uncontrolled
airports *without* taxiways (you taxi on the runway), so I reckoned
that was what they were talking about,

--Sylvain

[john smith]

> Doing donuts on the numbers while awaiting takeoff clearance gives a new
> meaning to "position and hold... whoa there... yee haw!... comone little
> dawgiee..."

I can add a little power, roll forward a couple feet and hit a brake and
spin a 360 pretty quickly! Think of it as a controlled ground loop.

[Yossarian]

Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.

Jose wrote:
> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
> McNicoll that it was a good idea.
>
> I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
> any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
> still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
> be straight on.
>
> So, I guess I was wrong. (dang - that's twice now!)
>
> Jose
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Ron Lee]

"Yossarian" > wrote:

>Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
>hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.

Position and hold (P&H) is an accident waiting to happen. How much
time does it take to wait at the holding line then move into position
and depart versus P&H and depart? 15 seconds? I prefer to verify
that the approach path is clear before venturing out on the runway and
departing.

Ron Lee

[Dan Luke]

"Ron Lee" wrote:

>>Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
>>hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.
>
> Position and hold (P&H) is an accident waiting to happen. How much
> time does it take to wait at the holding line then move into position
> and depart versus P&H and depart? 15 seconds?

It can be enough to be the difference between having required runway
separation and not having it. At a busy airport, 15 seconds/departure will
really add up over the course of a day's operations. ATC may not have it to
spare.

Want to p. o. the tower controller at Hobby Airport in Houston? Just diddle
around stopping at an angle or spinning donuts when given a p&h instruction.
Decline the p&h if it makes you nervous, but be prepared to wait a looonnngg
time to take off, as ATC will assume they have a kook on their hands.

> I prefer to verify that the approach path is clear before venturing out on
> the runway and
> departing.

That's fine, but sometimes you have to make allowances for the situation.
Either you're going to work with the flow at a busy airport or you're going
to be a problem for everyone.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jose > wrote:
>
>> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
>> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
>> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
>> McNicoll that it was a good idea.
>>
>> I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
>> any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
>> still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
>> be straight on.
>>
>
> You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
> and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.
>

Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?

[Skylune]

The precise position and angle need to be varied, according to individual
characteristics.

http://www.tagpilotsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=312

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:
> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
> McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I guess I'm not sure that I see the problem with position and hold at
towered airports when the tower is active. I think it's an incredibly
bad idea at non-towered airports, but what's worse is those pilots at
non-towered airports who call takeoff when I'm on base and then sit at
the hold short line for a few seconds before deciding to mosey out onto
the runway.

When instructed to position and hold at a towered airport, I check final
and then pay attention to what's happening in the pattern by listening
to the radio. If I suspect a conflict, I question it.


JKG

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>
> No where that I know of.
>

The previous poster, John Smith, apparently knows of some place where it's
done.

[zatatime]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:57:41 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
>prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?


No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
tower.

At uncontrolled airports a 360 (actually 270) is used if you have a
visual obstruction of some sort, or don't have a good look at what's
going on in the pattern for any other reason.

z

[Brien K. Meehan]

zatatime wrote:
> No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
> tower.

I must say this is unsafe advice.

I've avoided being squished by landing aircraft TWICE by checking
before taking the runway at towered airports.

Always, always, always make sure no one is landing before you take any
runway. YOU are responsible, not the tower controller, for the safety
of your flight.

[Dave Stadt]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...

>At a towered airport you need trust in the tower.

Not this pilot. Trust no one, especially the people in the tower.

[BTIZ]

a few years back.. LAX Tower cleared an aircraft onto "Position and hold"
and then forgot about it while another aircraft landed on top of the one
waiting to depart.

It was dark out

BT

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
> hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.
>
> Jose wrote:
>> A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
>> runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
>> takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
>> McNicoll that it was a good idea.
>>
>> I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
>> any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
>> still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
>> be straight on.
>>
>> So, I guess I was wrong. (dang - that's twice now!)
>>
>> Jose
>> --
>> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
>> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
>

[Jay Beckman]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:57:41 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > wrote:
>
>>Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
>>prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this
>>taught?
>
>
> No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
> tower.
>


No way...

I turn a little toward the upwind as I cross the hold line before I turn and
align with the runway. I'm not gonna trust anyone or anything but my own
eyeballs.

Jay B

[Mike W.]

Always a good idea to approach the runway, or stop at the hold line, at an
angle that allows you a clear view of final. When I am done doing my run up,
and I call tower and am rolling up, I do kind of an 'S' turn so I can see
for myself that there is nothing there. And I look both ways before going
out onto the runway. Yes, planes do land the wrong way occasionally, even at
a towered facility.

--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

[BTIZ]

he did not land "wrong", the tower cleared him to land, and had forgotten
about the one waiting for take off clearance.. sitting in the Position and
Hold

wish I could remember what year that was
BT

"Mike W." > wrote in message
...
> Always a good idea to approach the runway, or stop at the hold line, at an
> angle that allows you a clear view of final. When I am done doing my run
> up,
> and I call tower and am rolling up, I do kind of an 'S' turn so I can see
> for myself that there is nothing there. And I look both ways before going
> out onto the runway. Yes, planes do land the wrong way occasionally, even
> at
> a towered facility.
>
> --
> Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....
>
>

[Cub Driver]

hOn Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:57:41 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
>prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?

I was never taught this, but I sometimes do it, most often when I want
another look at the windsock (which is directly behind me if I take
the shortest route to the runway.

What would be difficult, in a taildragger, is to turn 180 degrees and
back again. Going around is a piece of cake.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[[email protected]]

> >Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
> >prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?

I do this all the time, control tower, uncontrolled... all the time.
Yes, I listen to the radio and keep traffic situational awareness in
mind, but I have also "discovered" a JET making RIGHT traffic to
runway 33 at Fort Collins - Loveland airport (FNL), when the PUBLISHED
and locally-used pattern is LEFT traffic!

As I am also a local FAA Aviation Safety Counselor, I also interviewed
the crew each time on the ground. Once they were unfamiliar and they
were on the wrong frequency. Twice they were cowboys and asserted
"We're IFR, traffic patterns don't apply to us". So, I wrote
my letter to the FAA and filed an ASRS report... and they were
visited and remineded by the FAA about proper procedures.

NO, they weren't on an instrument approach they were just going to
land at the airport and scatter the little airplanes out of their way.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 234 Young Eagles!

[Ron Lee]

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote:

>zatatime wrote:
>> No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
>> tower.
>
>I must say this is unsafe advice.
>
>I've avoided being squished by landing aircraft TWICE by checking
>before taking the runway at towered airports.
>
>Always, always, always make sure no one is landing before you take any
>runway. YOU are responsible, not the tower controller, for the safety
>of your flight.
>

Exactly, I was in a commercial jet that was told to P&H on the runway.
Soon thereafter the plane taxied to the first turnoff and I saw
another plane on final. I can be on the runway and airborne
quickly. P&H is asinine. If the traffic flow is thatv busy then
build a new runway...or stagger flights better.

Ron Lee

[zatatime]

On 11 Oct 2005 15:47:53 -0700, "Brien K. Meehan"
> wrote:

>zatatime wrote:
>> No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
>> tower.
>
>I must say this is unsafe advice.
>
>I've avoided being squished by landing aircraft TWICE by checking
>before taking the runway at towered airports.
>
>Always, always, always make sure no one is landing before you take any
>runway. YOU are responsible, not the tower controller, for the safety
>of your flight.


My comments were directly related to doing 360's on an active when
issued a position and hold clearance. I didn't go through every
detail of what should occur before that clearance was issued. I too
have refused a clearance with an airplane on short final at least once
in my life. I'm not trying to start a flame war for the thread since,
as is typical in usenet, comments are made and taken out of context,
however Mike W. summed it up very well:

<snip>
Always a good idea to approach the runway, or stop at the hold line,
at an
angle that allows you a clear view of final. When I am done doing my
run up,
and I call tower and am rolling up, I do kind of an 'S' turn so I can
see
for myself that there is nothing there. And I look both ways before
going
out onto the runway.

As far as 360s on a position and hold clearance, I wouldn't do
it....There's a better way to see oncoming traffic than that.

z

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I was never taught this, but I sometimes do it, most often when I want
> another look at the windsock (which is directly behind me if I take
> the shortest route to the runway.
>

What does the tower say about it? Why don't you just ask the controller for
the wind?


>
> What would be difficult, in a taildragger, is to turn 180 degrees and
> back again. Going around is a piece of cake.
>

Turning into a stiff wind is a piece of cake. Turning around in one may be
impossible.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> I do this all the time, control tower, uncontrolled... all the time.
>

Haw many times has the tower chewed you out for it? Who issues the position
and hold instructions at the uncontrolled airports?


>
> As I am also a local FAA Aviation Safety Counselor,
>

And you advocate acting contrary to ATC instructions? Shame on you!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
>
> Position and hold (P&H) is an accident waiting to happen. How much
> time does it take to wait at the holding line then move into position
> and depart versus P&H and depart? 15 seconds?
>

Larger aircraft can take significantly longer. It all adds up, dropping
position and hold will significantly reduce airport capacity and cause
significant delays at busy airports.


>
> I prefer to verify
> that the approach path is clear before venturing out on the runway and
> departing.
>

If you're uncomfortable with position and hold all you have to do is avoid
controlled airports.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
>
> Exactly, I was in a commercial jet that was told to P&H on the runway.
> Soon thereafter the plane taxied to the first turnoff and I saw
> another plane on final.
>

How do you know it was instructed to position and hold? Do you know why it
taxied off the runway?


>
> I can be on the runway and airborne
> quickly. P&H is asinine. If the traffic flow is thatv busy then
> build a new runway...or stagger flights better.
>

Fine. It's your job to convince the locals they need a new runway or
convince the operators to cut flights. Have at it.

[Mark T. Dame]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Ron Lee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I prefer to verify
>>that the approach path is clear before venturing out on the runway and
>>departing.
>
> If you're uncomfortable with position and hold all you have to do is avoid
> controlled airports.

As PIC, you always have the option of refusing the request from ATC.
You can simply reply with "Tower, N1234A would prefer to hold short
until cleared for departure." Of course, at a busy airport, you have to
wait a while, and you won't make any friends in the tower...


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

[Peter R.]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote:

> As PIC, you always have the option of refusing the request from ATC.
> You can simply reply with "Tower, N1234A would prefer to hold short
> until cleared for departure." Of course, at a busy airport, you have to
> wait a while, and you won't make any friends in the tower..

Deny a position and hold instruction at Boston Logan, and you might as well
taxi back to parking. :)

--
Peter
























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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote in message
...
>
> As PIC, you always have the option of refusing the request from ATC. You
> can simply reply with "Tower, N1234A would prefer to hold short until
> cleared for departure." Of course, at a busy airport, you have to wait a
> while, and you won't make any friends in the tower...
>

Nor will you make any friends among those waiting behind you. If you're
uncomfortable with the common practices at controlled fields it's best for
all concerned if you avoid them.

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > I do this all the time, control tower, uncontrolled... all the time.
> >

> Haw many times has the tower chewed you out for it?

Never! I am alive today because >I< looked and did not taxi out
in front of an aircraft making right traffic (to a left traffic runway).
Tower said "good call".

> Who issues the position
> and hold instructions at the uncontrolled airports?

No one? I wonder if you are replying out of context
I NEVER do position and hold at an uncontrolled airport...
and at a tower airport only after >I< have cleared the approach
path to the runway.

I am advocating a "360 look around". Sometimes that is a full circle,
sometimes it is a 1/2 left and 1/2 right... It depends on where you
are and where you are going. You CAN'T do this when you get to the
hold short line. At the hold short line you MUST BE READY TO GO!


> > As I am also a local FAA Aviation Safety Counselor,

> And you advocate acting contrary to ATC instructions? Shame on you!

I think you mis-read or mis-construe my remarks. I NEVER advocate
acting contray to ATC instructions, save in an emergency.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 234 Young Eagles!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> Never! I am alive today because >I< looked and did not taxi out
> in front of an aircraft making right traffic (to a left traffic runway).
> Tower said "good call".
>

Right traffic to a left traffic runway at a towered field?

You say you always do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff when
instructed to position and hold and have never had the tower call you on it?
You must not operate at controlled fields very often.


>>
>> Who issues the position
>> and hold instructions at the uncontrolled airports?
>
> No one? I wonder if you are replying out of context
> I NEVER do position and hold at an uncontrolled airport...
> and at a tower airport only after >I< have cleared the approach
> path to the runway.
>

I'm not replying out of context, but it appears you are. The question was:

"Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?"

Your response was:

"I do this all the time, control tower, uncontrolled... all the time.
Yes, I listen to the radio and keep traffic situational awareness in
mind, but I have also "discovered" a JET making RIGHT traffic to
runway 33 at Fort Collins - Loveland airport (FNL), when the PUBLISHED
and locally-used pattern is LEFT traffic!"


>
> I am advocating a "360 look around". Sometimes that is a full circle,
> sometimes it is a 1/2 left and 1/2 right... It depends on where you
> are and where you are going. You CAN'T do this when you get to the
> hold short line. At the hold short line you MUST BE READY TO GO!
>

But if you do it after the tower has instructed you to position and hold
you're not complying with the instruction.


>
> I think you mis-read or mis-construe my remarks. I NEVER advocate
> acting contray to ATC instructions, save in an emergency.
>

No, I understood what you wrote. Perhaps you misstated your position.