Stolen Jet found in Georgia

[Tamara Whitman]

"The plane, a $7 million Cessna Citation 7, was found at the
Gwinnett County Airport-Briscoe Field on Monday and remained
there this morning, said Darren Moloney, spokesman for the
Gwinnett County Police Department. The plane is owned by Pinnacle
Air of Springdale, Ark., which had no comment on the incident
today."

"Planes are easy to steal if you know how to fly them, because
they usually do not require a key to start the engines, Gwinnett
County Police Sgt. D. Mattox told the Gwinnett Daily Post."
--Damn he's giving away all the secrets! :)

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3391484

[[email protected]]

Tamara Whitman wrote:
[snip]
> "Planes are easy to steal if you know how to fly them, because
> they usually do not require a key to start the engines, Gwinnett
> County Police Sgt. D. Mattox told the Gwinnett Daily Post."
> --Damn he's giving away all the secrets! :)
Um... even the 1970's vintage Cessna's I fly require a key to start.
And to unlock the cockpit door. Now, it's not a very sophisticated or
strong lock, but it is a lock. Do high end jets not have keys?

John Stevens
Solo Student

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-12, > wrote:
> Um... even the 1970's vintage Cessna's I fly require a key to start.
> And to unlock the cockpit door. Now, it's not a very sophisticated or
> strong lock, but it is a lock. Do high end jets not have keys?

Generally once you get out of single engine planes, they don't have
keys. I've not yet been in a multi engine plane that had a key lock
(apart from the door).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-10-12, > wrote:
>> Um... even the 1970's vintage Cessna's I fly require a key to start.
>> And to unlock the cockpit door. Now, it's not a very sophisticated or
>> strong lock, but it is a lock. Do high end jets not have keys?
>
> Generally once you get out of single engine planes, they don't have
> keys. I've not yet been in a multi engine plane that had a key lock
> (apart from the door).
>
Yes, but the door on a Citation VII is significantly more substantial than
on a 172.

[Arketip]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On 2005-10-12, > wrote:
>>
>>>Um... even the 1970's vintage Cessna's I fly require a key to start.
>>>And to unlock the cockpit door. Now, it's not a very sophisticated or
>>>strong lock, but it is a lock. Do high end jets not have keys?
>>
>>Generally once you get out of single engine planes, they don't have
>>keys. I've not yet been in a multi engine plane that had a key lock
>>(apart from the door).
>>
>
> Yes, but the door on a Citation VII is significantly more substantial than
> on a 172.

Yes but you would be surprised to see how a business jet key look like,
your bicycle's is a lot more tamperproof

[jwilljr]

Tamara Whitman wrote:
> "The plane, a $7 million Cessna Citation 7, was found at the
> Gwinnett County Airport-Briscoe Field on Monday and remained
> there this morning, said Darren Moloney, spokesman for the
> Gwinnett County Police Department. The plane is owned by Pinnacle
> Air of Springdale, Ark., which had no comment on the incident
> today."
>
> "Planes are easy to steal if you know how to fly them, because
> they usually do not require a key to start the engines, Gwinnett
> County Police Sgt. D. Mattox told the Gwinnett Daily Post."
> --Damn he's giving away all the secrets! :)
>
> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3391484
>

Man Arrested, Charged in Jet Joy Ride

http://tinyurl.com/a55cu

Jerry

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"jwilljr" > wrote in message
...
> Tamara Whitman wrote:
>> "The plane, a $7 million Cessna Citation 7, was found at the
>> Gwinnett County Airport-Briscoe Field on Monday and remained
>> there this morning, said Darren Moloney, spokesman for the
>> Gwinnett County Police Department. The plane is owned by Pinnacle
>> Air of Springdale, Ark., which had no comment on the incident
>> today."
>>
>> "Planes are easy to steal if you know how to fly them, because
>> they usually do not require a key to start the engines, Gwinnett
>> County Police Sgt. D. Mattox told the Gwinnett Daily Post."
>> --Damn he's giving away all the secrets! :)
>>
>> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3391484
>>
>
> Man Arrested, Charged in Jet Joy Ride
>
> http://tinyurl.com/a55cu
>
> Jerry

Here are the alleged thief's ratings.

CertIficate: COMMERCIAL PILOT

Rating(s):

COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE









Type Ratings


C/IA-JET




Limits


THIS CERTIFICATE IS SUBJECT TO PILOT-IN-COMMAND LIMITATION FOR IA-JET.

[W P Dixon]

Or should we say the ratings he used to have ;)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:ize3f.26989$b65.23596@okepread01...
>
> "jwilljr" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Tamara Whitman wrote:
>>> "The plane, a $7 million Cessna Citation 7, was found at the
>>> Gwinnett County Airport-Briscoe Field on Monday and remained
>>> there this morning, said Darren Moloney, spokesman for the
>>> Gwinnett County Police Department. The plane is owned by Pinnacle
>>> Air of Springdale, Ark., which had no comment on the incident
>>> today."
>>>
>>> "Planes are easy to steal if you know how to fly them, because
>>> they usually do not require a key to start the engines, Gwinnett
>>> County Police Sgt. D. Mattox told the Gwinnett Daily Post."
>>> --Damn he's giving away all the secrets! :)
>>>
>>> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3391484
>>>
>>
>> Man Arrested, Charged in Jet Joy Ride
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/a55cu
>>
>> Jerry
>
> Here are the alleged thief's ratings.
>
> CertIficate: COMMERCIAL PILOT
>
> Rating(s):
>
> COMMERCIAL PILOT
> AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
> AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
> INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Type Ratings
>
>
> C/IA-JET
>
>
>
>
> Limits
>
>
> THIS CERTIFICATE IS SUBJECT TO PILOT-IN-COMMAND LIMITATION FOR
> IA-JET.
>
>

[Guy Elden Jr]

Wow... what a way to ruin one's chances at ever having a flying career.

--
Guy

[Darkwing]

"Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wow... what a way to ruin one's chances at ever having a flying career.
>
> --
> Guy
>

My thoughts exactly, good luck finding an aviation job in a non-third world
country.

-----------------------------------------------
DW

[Danh]

"Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> wrote in
:

>
> "Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Wow... what a way to ruin one's chances at ever having a flying
>> career.
>>
>> --
>> Guy
>>
>
> My thoughts exactly, good luck finding an aviation job in a non-third
> world country.
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> DW
>

For a great fictional book about a pilot in just this situation, check
out "Island of the Sequined Love Nun" by Christopher Moore. In the
story, the pilot takes his employers pink Lear on a joy ride and crashes
it trying to join the mile-high-club. One of my favorite books of all
time.

well, that was totally off-topic...

[Skylune]

Well, first, thank god no one was hurt or killed (apparently). Second,
this is an excellent data point for the ADIZ controversy and for the GA
airport security debate. Outstanding actually!

I will be interested to see how Phil Boyer spins this latest incident to
"prove" how effective security is at GA airports, and to show that the
ADIZ is unnecessary. After all, how much damage could a stolen GA Jet do??
A truck, or even a Hyundai is more dangerous, right? Good thing he filed
the request (on the Docket Management System) for public hearings on making
the ADIZ permanent. Be careful what you wish for Phil!!!

Now, lets watch as the politicos (mainly the odious duo of
Schumer/Hillary) chime in. The media is all over it already, so the pols
are sure to follow!

Then the editorials will follow.

And I guess Big Phil will have to get yet another new bumper sticker to
replace the "I fly a C-150, ....fear me!" one. The repurcussions of the
stolen jet (a jet!!!!) are vast, and very exciting for anti-GA activists
such as myself.

Hey, I wonder if the AOPA advertising budget will have to go up when the
new propoganda ad appears in USA Today and other publications.

Boy, this is gonna be really fun.

[Skylune]

Although, Phil may point out that the ADIZ s/b only applicable to high
performance prop planes or jets, to protect the recreational pilots (the
prime initiative of the AOPA).

This could cause a split between the AOPA and the organization that
represents business pilots (akin to what happened about 10-12 years ago in
that user fee debate).

Will be very interesting to watch.

[Matt Barrow]

"Arketip" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>On 2005-10-12, > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Um... even the 1970's vintage Cessna's I fly require a key to start.
>>>>And to unlock the cockpit door. Now, it's not a very sophisticated or
>>>>strong lock, but it is a lock. Do high end jets not have keys?
>>>
>>>Generally once you get out of single engine planes, they don't have
>>>keys. I've not yet been in a multi engine plane that had a key lock
>>>(apart from the door).
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but the door on a Citation VII is significantly more substantial
>> than on a 172.
>
> Yes but you would be surprised to see how a business jet key look like,
> your bicycle's is a lot more tamperproof

A 172 can be accessed without a key...just a screwdriver and a little brute
force. :~)

[NW_PILOT]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Arketip" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> >> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>On 2005-10-12, > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Um... even the 1970's vintage Cessna's I fly require a key to start.
> >>>>And to unlock the cockpit door. Now, it's not a very sophisticated or
> >>>>strong lock, but it is a lock. Do high end jets not have keys?
> >>>
> >>>Generally once you get out of single engine planes, they don't have
> >>>keys. I've not yet been in a multi engine plane that had a key lock
> >>>(apart from the door).
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, but the door on a Citation VII is significantly more substantial
> >> than on a 172.
> >
> > Yes but you would be surprised to see how a business jet key look like,
> > your bicycle's is a lot more tamperproof
>
> A 172 can be accessed without a key...just a screwdriver and a little
brute
> force. :~)
>
>

Not even that maby a old worn out cessna key!

Steven Rhine
CP-ASEL-IA

[John Doe]

Airport security yes, ADIZ? Not sure how that's a factor here.


"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Well, first, thank god no one was hurt or killed (apparently). Second,
> this is an excellent data point for the ADIZ controversy and for the GA
> airport security debate. Outstanding actually!
>
> I will be interested to see how Phil Boyer spins this latest incident to
> "prove" how effective security is at GA airports, and to show that the
> ADIZ is unnecessary. After all, how much damage could a stolen GA Jet do??
> A truck, or even a Hyundai is more dangerous, right? Good thing he filed
> the request (on the Docket Management System) for public hearings on
> making
> the ADIZ permanent. Be careful what you wish for Phil!!!
>
> Now, lets watch as the politicos (mainly the odious duo of
> Schumer/Hillary) chime in. The media is all over it already, so the pols
> are sure to follow!
>
> Then the editorials will follow.
>
> And I guess Big Phil will have to get yet another new bumper sticker to
> replace the "I fly a C-150, ....fear me!" one. The repurcussions of the
> stolen jet (a jet!!!!) are vast, and very exciting for anti-GA activists
> such as myself.
>
> Hey, I wonder if the AOPA advertising budget will have to go up when the
> new propoganda ad appears in USA Today and other publications.
>
> Boy, this is gonna be really fun.
>
>
>

[Morgans]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote

> Not even that ****maby*** a old worn out cessna key!

You really need to get a spell checker. Mistakes, like in this post, make
you look like an idiot.
--
Jim in NC

[Mark T. Dame]

John Doe wrote:
> Airport security yes, ADIZ? Not sure how that's a factor here.

Don't you know the best solution to prevent people from stealing
airplanes is to blow them out of the sky for violating the ADIZ?

(-:


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by
stupidity."
-- Hanlon's Razor

[Chris Curtis]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote
>
>> Not even that ****maby*** a old worn out cessna key!
>
> You really need to get a spell checker. Mistakes, like in this post, make
> you look like an idiot.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

And your need to point this out...
What do you think you now look like? :)

Chris

[gatt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message

> Yes, but the door on a Citation VII is significantly more substantial
> >than on a 172.

Heh. The last time I rented a C172, the tumbler in the pilot's door
literally fell out in flight. If you wanted to foil the lock, you'd just
have to jam a key in there and yank the hole thing out.

-c

[gatt]

"Chris Curtis" > wrote in message

>>Mistakes, like in this post, make you look like an idiot.
>
> And your need to point this out...
> What do you think you now look like? :)

It makes him look like a spell-checker. Which gives me an idea usenet/email
spell-check software; it's abusive.

Instead of highlighting the word in red or whatever, it automatically abuses
you:

-"Hey idiot! You spelled 'loser' wrong."

-"You really should take a class or something. You made ten spelling
mistakes in your otherwise already-moronic post."

-"You speakee Engrish, numbskull?! What is this, lysdexia awareness week?

-"As your spellchecker it's my duty to inform you you're a dumbass. One more
mistake like this and I'm plonking you. You probably wrote this with a
crayon."

[gatt]

"jwilljr" > wrote in message news:gce3f.5645

> Man Arrested, Charged in Jet Joy Ride

There's a serious mispelling there. Should be:

"Dumbass Arrested..."

[gatt]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message

> Here are the alleged thief's ratings.
>
> CertIficate: COMMERCIAL PILOT...
> AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
> AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
> INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

What do you want to bet daddy or grandma paid for all of it?

-c

[[email protected]]

Ugh. I cringed when I read about this, not just because I couldn't
believe anyone would be stupid enough to try something like that, but I
knew the knee-jerk anti-GA types (Skylune) would jump all over this...
and I was right.

I read on AvFlash the crew left the plane unlocked on the ramp (major
violation of ramp security and common sense) which was tempting enough
to lure some dumbass kid into an even dumber stunt. Unbelievable. A 22
year old kid that probably wanted to fly for a living now with a
useless type rating and a felony charge w/five misdemeanor counts to
boot. The pax apparently didn't know the plane was stolen. (haven't
figured that part out yet)

[Skylune]

"but I
knew the knee-jerk anti-GA types (Skylune) would jump all over this...
and I was right."

Knee-jerk? I've been at this quite some time. "Anti-GA" is really just
short-hand. I just think there should be much stricter regulation of GA,
real enforcement of the FARs, that the FAA is hopelessly conflicted in its
roles, that obtaining a PPL is much too easy (having had some limited
experience here myself, and flying with my GPS challenged buddy), and that
the subsidies s/b curtailed.

I would not propose tearing the yoke out of any qualified pilot's hands,
anymore than I would want someone to tell me I had to hand in my Mossberg
(to go back to the gun ownership vs. right to fly analogy).

Just watch, my predictions will materialize:
1. Press reaction (justified- I mean a stolen jet is certainly
newsworthy)
2. Political opportunism: Here's Chuck and Hillary!
3. Editorializing.

Its as predicatable as the tides. What I'm waiting is to see how the AOPA
reacts, and how this most recent incident factors into the the ADIZ and GA
airport security debate.

[Jose]

> I read on AvFlash the crew left the plane unlocked on the ramp (major
> violation of ramp security and common sense) which was tempting enough
> to lure some dumbass kid into an even dumber stunt.

Lure? I didn't know unlocked planes exuded an aura.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

Here's the reaction from one of my favorite political commentators:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003699.htm

[[email protected]]

>>>>Lure? I didn't know unlocked planes exuded an aura.<<<<

Meh. Just a figure of speech. Not to be taken literally.

[[email protected]]

>>>>obtaining a PPL is much too easy <<<<

Really? I'm a CFI and I can tell ya these aren't just given away

>>>>FAA is hopelessly conflicted in its roles<<<<

No argument there, it's a disgustingly inefficient bureacreacy

>>>>and flying with my GPS challenged buddy<<<<

One pilot's inability to to learn new equipment doesn't condemn the
whole flying population. That's a poor argument

>>>>how this most recent incident factors into the the ADIZ and GA airport security debate<<<<

It's strictly an airport security issue. The crew goofed by leaving the
acft unlocked on the ramp. It has nothing to do with any ADIZ as no
ADIZ was violated. Even the TSA is saying that.

[Jose]

>>Lure? I didn't know unlocked planes exuded an aura.<<<<
>
> Meh. Just a figure of speech. Not to be taken literally.

Maybe a figure of speech, but it makes a strong implication that is
harmful to the community. For the jet to have been accidentally left
open, AND for that same jet to be stolen, would require either people
prowling for an open jet and getting lucky (this implies that there
probably would be lots of people doing this to get lucky so fast), or
that somehow the prowlers had some inkling that this particular jet, on
this particular day, was a good target.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

Agreed, that they don't just "give these things away." But wouldn't you
agree, that once you get your ticket, it is very possible to not stay
current or proficient if you don't practice regularly? Would you agree
that there are some pilots out there who got their PPL long ago, and now
fly so infrequently as to be a danger to themselves, their passengers, or
those below?

Personally, I think a VFR ticket only s/b eliminated. All pilots should
have to be able to fly IFR. That would eliminate hundreds of mishaps per
year. Nothings perfect of course, but these learn to fly in a month
schools are insane, IMHO.

BTW, the reason I stopped training after about 15 hours was not that I
couldn't ultimately get the ticket. I realized that it would take
constant dedication, and lots of time, to stay safe as a PPL. Too many
other pulls on my time, and too many other interests. So I pulled the
plug. I still think it was the right thing to do.

Ironically, now that I am about to semi-retire, I may actually pick it up
again. But I would certainly want to buy a fairly new plane. And I would
expect to pay my user fees for the "right" to fly.

[Skylune]

I think it certainly is an ADIZ argument. Boyer has (disingenously, of
course) argued that the ADIZ is unnecessary largely because of the minimal
threat posed by light aircraft ("I fly a C-150: fear me"). Now, we all
know that jets and big turboprops also fly GA.

Personally, from what I know, I would think that small aircraft like most
Cessnas and Pipers s/b exempted from the ADIZ. But this gets difficult
politically: AOPA would then be standing against the biz jet owners. A
unified front is preferable. But if this thing gets traction (as I
stongly suspect it will, if not a foregone conclusion), Boyer may decide
to change tactics.

[Ice blonde]

>Ironically, now that I am about to semi-retire, I may actually pick it up
>again. But I would certainly want to buy a fairly new plane.

Then you could patrol the skiing NG's and scold all the would be skiers
that only go skiing once or twice a year ;-)

Particularly the larger built ones, or the older ones who's eye sight
might be failing!

Hours of new fun, for when your a pilot and the weather is stopping you
flying.

[Skylune]

What does one have to do with the other?????

If skiers start racing across my property and waking me up and making a
racket and breaking all kinds of laws, I will harass them. When I was an
ski instructor in my 20s and when people skied recklessly, we had the
power to clip their tickets. Usually, you would put a red stripe on the
ticket first, as a warning. Then if the transgressor did it again, it got
clipped and he/she could head to the bar where they belong. Many skiers
routinely admonish others who break the rules (although it is usually the
boarders who do stupid stuff). I wish more pilots and airport sponsors
would police their own, since the FAA really doesn't give a damn about
noise abatement, busting the 1000 ft minimum, etc.

If I decide to pursue my PPL in another year or so, I will obey the FARs
and noise abatement procedures. I would not join AOPA under any
circumstances of course. ;-)

Are u gonna pursue your pilot license, or are you gonna drop out like
Skylune did?

[John Doe]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...

> Personally, I think a VFR ticket only s/b eliminated. All pilots should
> have to be able to fly IFR. That would eliminate hundreds of mishaps per
> year. Nothings perfect of course, but these learn to fly in a month
> schools are insane, IMHO.
>

Why don't you propose a way to fix all the accidents on the road first. I'd
rather fly with a pilot (graduated from the month long school) than half the
drivers on the street today.

[John Doe]

So how did they catch the guy?


"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "jwilljr" > wrote in message news:gce3f.5645
>
>> Man Arrested, Charged in Jet Joy Ride
>
> There's a serious mispelling there. Should be:
>
> "Dumbass Arrested..."
>

[sfb]

His passengers blew the whistle. They didn't know the plane was
"borrowed" until reading the newspapers.

"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:b1C3f.3293$L24.1909@lakeread01...
> So how did they catch the guy?
>
>
> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "jwilljr" > wrote in message news:gce3f.5645
>>
>>> Man Arrested, Charged in Jet Joy Ride
>>
>> There's a serious mispelling there. Should be:
>>
>> "Dumbass Arrested..."
>>
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>Lure? I didn't know unlocked planes exuded an aura.<<<<
>
> Meh. Just a figure of speech. Not to be taken literally.

Ask some older folks how they could go away for weeks with their doors
unlocked without a worry.

[Sylvain]

Skylune wrote:
> If skiers start racing across my property

that's where you are obviously confused: I don't
know about skiiers, but I can assure you that
no airplane has *ever* flown through your property,
and never will, because the airspace above your property
is not yours in the first place; you should have
asked before buying anything...

--Sylvain

[Greg Farris]

In article
utaviation.com>,
says...
>
>
>Here's the reaction from one of my favorite political commentators:
>
>http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003699.htm
>

Your favorite?
I find her avaition and general awareness discomfiting. . .

[[email protected]]

>>>>Maybe a figure of speech, but it makes a strong implication that is harmful to the community. For the jet to have been accidentally left open, AND for that same jet to be stolen, would require either people prowling for an open jet and getting lucky (this implies that there probably would be lots of people doing this to get lucky so fast), or that somehow the prowlers had some inkling that this particular jet, on this particular day, was a good target<<<


A friend of mine is a tower controller at St. Augustine where the plane
was stolen from. Apparently the father of the punk-ass kid that stole
it owns a charter company. I don't know if the jet was owned by this or
some other company. I understand what you're saying by the
implications. I think in this case it was just a bored young punk with
a jet type rating looking for something to do. He may have talked with
the crew and knew the door wasn't locked? I doubt just anyone getting
into one of those things could even get the engines started - that
takes training and understanding. It's not as if any shmuck could
figure out how to start the engines on a Citation (without destroying
them in a hot start). It ain't a Cessna.

[Garner Miller]

In article . com>,
"> wrote:

> I doubt just anyone getting into one of those things could even get
> the engines started - that takes training and understanding. It's not
> as if any shmuck could figure out how to start the engines on a
> Citation (without destroying them in a hot start).

I looked his name up in the FAA database, and he has a Westwind type
rating. While there will obviously be systems differences, I'm sure he
has enough knowledge to get it up and running without too much
difficulty.

> It ain't a Cessna.

Well, actually it is. <grin>

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:49:10 -0400, "Skylune"
> wrote:

>Agreed, that they don't just "give these things away." But wouldn't you
>agree, that once you get your ticket, it is very possible to not stay
>current or proficient if you don't practice regularly? Would you agree
>that there are some pilots out there who got their PPL long ago, and now
>fly so infrequently as to be a danger to themselves, their passengers, or
>those below?

Most, if not all people who study, practice and earn their PPL do so
because they've always wanted to fly an airplane. Once they've gotten
their license, they want to fly. The cost may limit how often they
can fly, but practicing means flying an airplane. At the FBO where I
rent, the insurance requires that any pilot renting from them must
have made at least three landings in the past 45 days. "Oh please
don't trow me in dat briar patch."

Every two years pilots go through something called the "biennial
flight review". You may not have heard of it because you did not
finish your flight training but it is required of all private pilots.
During this review the CFI will ask the pilot to demonstrate
proficiency in anything he/she feels is relevant to the act of flying
safely. It includes ground school. According to the CFI who gave me
my BFR,

Corky Scott

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0400,
wrote:

>According to the CFI who gave me
>my BFR,

Sorry, hit send before I was ready.

The rest of the sentence is: you are not legal to fly if you do not
complete the BFR within the two year period.

Corky Scott

[[email protected]]

Skylune wrote:

> Personally, I think a VFR ticket only s/b eliminated. All pilots should
> have to be able to fly IFR. That would eliminate hundreds of mishaps per
> year. Nothings perfect of course, but these learn to fly in a month
> schools are insane, IMHO.

Do you have any evidence that these "insane" fly-in-a-month schools'
graduates have any different risk profile than a pilot like me who got
his PPL in 75 hours over 13 months?

-cwk.

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >>>>Maybe a figure of speech, but it makes a strong implication that is
harmful to the community. For the jet to have been accidentally left open,
AND for that same jet to be stolen, would require either people prowling for
an open jet and getting lucky (this implies that there probably would be
lots of people doing this to get lucky so fast), or that somehow the
prowlers had some inkling that this particular jet, on this particular day,
was a good target<<<
>
>
> A friend of mine is a tower controller at St. Augustine where the plane
> was stolen from. Apparently the father of the punk-ass kid that stole
> it owns a charter company. I don't know if the jet was owned by this or
> some other company. I understand what you're saying by the
> implications. I think in this case it was just a bored young punk with
> a jet type rating looking for something to do. He may have talked with
> the crew and knew the door wasn't locked? I doubt just anyone getting
> into one of those things could even get the engines started - that
> takes training and understanding. It's not as if any shmuck could
> figure out how to start the engines on a Citation (without destroying
> them in a hot start). It ain't a Cessna.

Well, actually it is a Cessna. :-)

[[email protected]]

> It ain't a Cessna.


Well, actually it is. <grin>


Oy. Yeah I caught that just *after* I hit the Post button...

I've read from several different sources he had a Citation 1A type
rating. That's the first time I've heard about the Westwind, but you
know how the media screws up details when it comes to aviation...

[[email protected]]

>>>>Well, actually it is a Cessna. :-) <<<<

Didn't take long to pick up on that eh?? *grimace*

What I meant to say was "It ain't a 172..."

[Garner Miller]

In article om>,
"> wrote:

> I've read from several different sources he had a Citation 1A type
> rating. That's the first time I've heard about the Westwind, but you
> know how the media screws up details when it comes to aviation...

Yep. Makes me more than a little cynical when I hear them reporting on
other topics, knowing how badly they screw up this one.

His rating was "IA-JET," which is the code for the Westwind. The
original Citation came out in 1972, followed by the Citation I in 1976.
There was never a "1A."

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

[[email protected]]

>>>>His rating was "IA-JET," which is the code for the Westwind. The
original Citation came out in 1972, followed by the Citation I in 1976.

There was never a "1A." <<<<

You're right, I was thinking of the Citation 1SP, which is covered
under the CE-500 type rating anyway

[Skylune]

One need not be an aviation expert to comment on a stolen jet in the
context of airport security. Listen, in my field of expertise, the press
gets the details wrong all the time. You cannot expect the press to be as
expert in GA as a PPL.

[Skylune]

I do know of the biennial review. Do you think there are nonproficient
pilots, and are current regs sufficient? Lots of evidence suggests its
not.

Some CFIs have actually refered to one of the large flight schools as
"American Diers." Do you think a zero time to PPL certificate in a month
school is adequate training, even if you can pass the check ride? I don't.
Thats why I quit.

Fortunately, I am lucky enough to have made some money to make it to early
retirement. If I can convince myself that I will be able to fly at least
once per week, and keep current on the new technologies, I'm going back to
school. (Of course, many CFIs would probably not want Skylune as a
student, as I can be a stubborn pain in the ass. But, I think that is one
of the successful character traits of a pilot, judging from what I've seen
here and from other experience. ;-).

[Skylune]

1. there are many idiots on the road, no doubt. (I see some of them
pulling out of the parking lot at the local GA airport).

2. accident rates (adjusted for per capita, miles travelled, etc.) points
to GA as far more dangerous than driving a car, and even a motorcycle.
You've seen the studies.

3. just because there are idiot drivers, does not mean that GA should get
a total pass.

[Skylune]

See, now that's the utter denial that really ****es me off.

Planes bust the 1000 ft minimum all the time near my NH house, which is 5
miles from the airport. Where I'm moving from, very close to Republic
airport on LI, no noise issue whatsoever (thats where I trained for a
time). It shows that the airport sponsor is primarily responsible for
community relations.

Pending court cases (and settled ones as well) will determine the extent
of community control. You like the FAA asleep at the switch attitude when
it benefits you (i.e. the FARs, no teeth in noise abatement), and hate them
when they want to impose user fees, or get pushed into endorsing the ADIZ.

[Skylune]

I can't point to it quickly. I can though assure you that many CFIs (from
AOPA posts and others) think these things are just geared to teach the
minimum to pass the check ride.

[Jose]

> Planes bust the 1000 ft minimum all the time near my NH house, which is 5
> miles from the airport.

Are you in a "congested area"? If not, the minimum is five hundred feet.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

I know that, and yes, I am. It is not rural. In close proximity to Nashua
New Hampshire.

And, I'm pretty sure, the fAA has no definition of "rural." Maybe its up
to the pilots to define?

[Jose]

> And, I'm pretty sure, the fAA has no definition of "rural." Maybe its up
> to the pilots to define?

"Not congested" does not equate to "rural". In a rural area, one must
be five hundred feet away from structures and such, but any safe
altitude above the ground. In an area that's not rural but not
congested, five hundred feet above the ground.

The FAA definitions of "congested" and "rural" are top-secret, and
revealed on a need-to-know basis after the fact. But you knew this.

As a working definition I use the yellow areas of the sectional as
"congested", and any place that looks like is should be yellow. If I've
got plenty of places to put it down should the cooling fan quit, I don't
consider it congested. (It's about hazard, not noise).

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

Ha ha.

This is another ancient relic FAA regulation from a simpler, earlier time
when there were vast unpopulated areas of the country.

But you've answered my question. Its another rule which needs to be
changed to keep up with the times.

[Jose]

> Its another rule which needs to be
> changed to keep up with the times.

And you would change it to say... what?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Skylune]

More Ha Ha. Put this in your pipe and smoke it. The list is growing too!

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/

[George Patterson]

Jose wrote:

> And you would change it to say... what?

Stay at least 1000' above anyplace he is. And turn the engine off while you're
there.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Skylune]

And the best Ha Ha to date:

http://www.stopthenoise.org/docs/COMPLAINT.ammended.pdf

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
>I do know of the biennial review. Do you think there are nonproficient
> pilots, and are current regs sufficient? Lots of evidence suggests its
> not.
>
> Some CFIs have actually refered to one of the large flight schools as
> "American Diers." Do you think a zero time to PPL certificate in a month
> school is adequate training, even if you can pass the check ride? I
> don't.
> Thats why I quit.
>
> Fortunately, I am lucky enough to have made some money to make it to early
> retirement. If I can convince myself that I will be able to fly at least
> once per week, and keep current on the new technologies, I'm going back to
> school. (Of course, many CFIs would probably not want Skylune as a
> student, as I can be a stubborn pain in the ass. But, I think that is one
> of the successful character traits of a pilot, judging from what I've seen
> here and from other experience. ;-).
>


The worst trained US pilot is a better aircraft pilot than the average
licensed automobile driver is an auto driver.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Ha ha.
>
> This is another ancient relic FAA regulation from a simpler, earlier time
> when there were vast unpopulated areas of the country.
>


Do you think that there are not vast unpopulated areas of the country now?
take a few minutes on earth.google.com

[sfb]

So what has happened since May 2003?

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> And the best Ha Ha to date:
>
> http://www.stopthenoise.org/docs/COMPLAINT.ammended.pdf
>

[sfb]

One would think the US has vast unpopulated areas, but take the redeye
from the West Coast and you will see lights most every where.

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:VZT3f.36399$b65.34841@okepread01...
>
> "Skylune" > wrote in message
> lkaboutaviation.com...
>> Ha ha.
>>
>> This is another ancient relic FAA regulation from a simpler, earlier
>> time
>> when there were vast unpopulated areas of the country.
>>
>
>
> Do you think that there are not vast unpopulated areas of the country
> now? take a few minutes on earth.google.com
>

[Bob Noel]

In article <DjU3f.50$Yk6.0@trnddc01>, "sfb" > wrote:

> One would think the US has vast unpopulated areas, but take the redeye
> from the West Coast and you will see lights most every where.

I have taken the red-eye many times, and lights are certainly not
"most everywhere"

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[.Blueskies.]

"Tamara Whitman" > wrote in message ...
> "The plane, a $7 million Cessna Citation 7, was found at the
> Gwinnett County Airport-Briscoe Field on Monday and remained
> there this morning, said Darren Moloney, spokesman for the
> Gwinnett County Police Department. The plane is owned by Pinnacle
> Air of Springdale, Ark., which had no comment on the incident
> today."
>
> "Planes are easy to steal if you know how to fly them, because
> they usually do not require a key to start the engines, Gwinnett
> County Police Sgt. D. Mattox told the Gwinnett Daily Post."
> --Damn he's giving away all the secrets! :)
>
> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3391484
>
>

I could be paranoid here, but are we being set up? Need to watch this one real close...

[Ice blonde]

>What does one have to do with the other?????

Nothing at all, but there does appear to be a re-occuring subject in
some of your reply posts, it all seems to come back to how badly pilots
are trained in the US?

Maybe you should travel abroad for your training and cert? ;-)

>Are u gonna pursue your pilot license, or are you gonna drop out like
>Skylune did?

You really have no concept of enjoying the journey do you! I will never
'drop out' of enjoying flying, now I've found that I do! :-)

If I have the inclination then yes, I will go for a PPL, but if I don't
get that far, I'm not going to get bitter and twisted about it, I'm not
going to label myself a 'drop out, loser or failure' and spend my time
moaning at others who have got theirs! And I won't be waiting till
early retirement either, even early would be a long way off for me.

I will fly when I want too, and enjoy the flying I do, and if its
enough to go for a license, then thats a bonus.

You have to live your life everyday, nobody can say for sure they will
be here tomorrow. I'm sure there is some poor guy who died doing his
check flight? But I would hope he was the sort to have enjoyed the
training :-)

Regards

[Morgans]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
> > Planes bust the 1000 ft minimum all the time near my NH house, which is
5
> > miles from the airport.
>
> Are you in a "congested area"? If not, the minimum is five hundred feet.

It matters not what the law is, when skylooneybird is speaking. He has
already admitted hacking into AOPA's web site. I repeat, the law does not
matter.

If airplanes are at legal altitude, and fly where *he* thinks they are too
loud, or too close, or too early, he is ****ed. They are flying legally. I
repeat, the law matters not, to skylooneybird.

Why doesn't somebody just step on him?
--
Jim in NC

[George Patterson]

..Blueskies. wrote:

> I could be paranoid here, but are we being set up? Need to watch this one real close...

I'm beginning to think so also. That's three joyrides in a couple months. Bigger
planes each time. Bigger airports each time.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article
utaviation.com>,
"Skylune" > tossed another turd into the
punchbowl:

> More Ha Ha. Put this in your pipe and smoke it. The list is growing too!
>
> http://www.airfields-freeman.com/


I am tired of "Skyloon's" schadenfreude (malicious glee at others'
misfortune). on this NG.

He offers nothing constructive and continues to deprecate the spirit of
this NG.

In some ways I hope that he pursues his pilot training, really enjoys it
and then discovers, to his horror, the damage that he and others of his
ilk have done.

In other ways, I really don't want him to join the pilot community, with
his arrogance and destructive attitude, as I think that he will end up
as another bad statistic and be another black eye to GA.

[Stubby]

George Patterson wrote:
> .Blueskies. wrote:
>
>> I could be paranoid here, but are we being set up? Need to watch this
>> one real close...
>
>
> I'm beginning to think so also. That's three joyrides in a couple
> months. Bigger planes each time. Bigger airports each time.

"Set up"??? For what? Please explain.

[George Patterson]

Stubby wrote:

> "Set up"??? For what? Please explain.

"Set up" as in someone with an axe to grind or some political hay to make hiring
or otherwise organizing people to steal aircraft in order to advance a policy of
restrictions against other people. Such as airplane owners.

There's a very old saying that you should never attribute to malice what can be
attrributed to stupidity. Following that, the first theft (that of a kid
stealing a Cessna) should be considered to be a simple case of stupidity. And
when some drunk goes joyriding into Hilary Clinton's back yard, a reasonable man
still thinks this is just a remarkable display of lack of intelligence. At some
point, however, a reasonable man begins to feel that there may be more going on
than just the acts of stupid people.

Whether we've reached that point or not is debatable, but something is beginning
to smell fishy.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Mike W.]

The '2-lock' law like New Jersey had proposed is starting to sound not so
crazy.

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:gMi4f.3017$Gt2.356@trndny01...
> Stubby wrote:
>
> > "Set up"??? For what? Please explain.
>
> "Set up" as in someone with an axe to grind or some political hay to make
hiring
> or otherwise organizing people to steal aircraft in order to advance a
policy of
> restrictions against other people. Such as airplane owners.
>
> There's a very old saying that you should never attribute to malice what
can be
> attrributed to stupidity. Following that, the first theft (that of a kid
> stealing a Cessna) should be considered to be a simple case of stupidity.
And
> when some drunk goes joyriding into Hilary Clinton's back yard, a
reasonable man
> still thinks this is just a remarkable display of lack of intelligence. At
some
> point, however, a reasonable man begins to feel that there may be more
going on
> than just the acts of stupid people.
>
> Whether we've reached that point or not is debatable, but something is
beginning
> to smell fishy.
>
> George Patterson
> Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your
neighbor.
> It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[George Patterson]

Mike W. wrote:

> The '2-lock' law like New Jersey had proposed is starting to sound not so
> crazy.

That should be "like New Jersey passed." But you're correct. In this case, it
might have stopped the theft.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Jose]

>> The '2-lock' law like New Jersey had proposed is starting to sound not so
>> crazy.
>
>
> That should be "like New Jersey passed." But you're correct. In this case, it might have stopped the theft.

Doubt it. If they forgot to lock one lock, they'd've forgotten to lock
two locks.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Looks pretty vastly dark to me.

http://www.darksky.org/images/satelite/usa_1996-97.gif


"sfb" > wrote in message news:DjU3f.50$Yk6.0@trnddc01...
> One would think the US has vast unpopulated areas, but take the redeye
> from the West Coast and you will see lights most every where.
>
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:VZT3f.36399$b65.34841@okepread01...
>>
>> "Skylune" > wrote in message
>> lkaboutaviation.com...
>>> Ha ha.
>>>
>>> This is another ancient relic FAA regulation from a simpler, earlier
>>> time
>>> when there were vast unpopulated areas of the country.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Do you think that there are not vast unpopulated areas of the country
>> now? take a few minutes on earth.google.com
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Jose > wrote:
> > Planes bust the 1000 ft minimum all the time near my NH house, which is 5
> > miles from the airport.

> Are you in a "congested area"? If not, the minimum is five hundred feet.

.... "except for takeoff and landing"...

Ya know, in the high density altitude situations, sometimes I am
5 miles from the airport before I EVER get 1000 AGL. :-)

Consider pattern altitude at Leadville: 11,000 MSL, with the
density altitude at 13,000.


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 234 Young Eagles!

[private]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:gMi4f.3017$Gt2.356@trndny01...
> Stubby wrote:
>
> > "Set up"??? For what? Please explain.
>
> "Set up" as in someone with an axe to grind or some political hay to make
hiring
> or otherwise organizing people to steal aircraft in order to advance a
policy of
> restrictions against other people. Such as airplane owners.
>
> There's a very old saying that you should never attribute to malice what
can be
> attrributed to stupidity. Following that, the first theft (that of a kid
> stealing a Cessna) should be considered to be a simple case of stupidity.
And
> when some drunk goes joyriding into Hilary Clinton's back yard, a
reasonable man
> still thinks this is just a remarkable display of lack of intelligence. At
some
> point, however, a reasonable man begins to feel that there may be more
going on
> than just the acts of stupid people.
>
> Whether we've reached that point or not is debatable, but something is
beginning
> to smell fishy.
>

To quote an unknown general
"Once is serendipity,
Twice is coincidence,
Three times is enemy action"

IMHO,
Personal freedoms are under attack as never before.
In any conflict for power, the first casualty is truth.

Happy landings,