Sport Pilot Training in VA

[W P Dixon]

Just an update,
Gig informed me in another thread that this place had recieved a Zenith
601 for flight training. And that is true! They are doing flight training at
Bryce Mountain Resort, the inn is 125 a night. 10 hours with instructor is
$1200 smackers and a 5 hour block will only run you $650. I'd love to fly a
601 but I ain't paying that kind of price..it's a sport plane not a
Gulfstream ;) I may have to wait until Gig gets his finished! HEE HEE
Anyway web sites are www.sportplanes.com and www.maspl.com. The also offer a
complete sport pilot package costing $4290, you can get a PP here for that !

--
Patrick Dixon
student SP
aircraft structural mech

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Just an update,
> Gig informed me in another thread that this place had recieved a Zenith
> 601 for flight training. And that is true! They are doing flight training
> at Bryce Mountain Resort, the inn is 125 a night. 10 hours with instructor
> is $1200 smackers and a 5 hour block will only run you $650. I'd love to
> fly a 601 but I ain't paying that kind of price..it's a sport plane not a
> Gulfstream ;) I may have to wait until Gig gets his finished! HEE HEE
> Anyway web sites are www.sportplanes.com and www.maspl.com. The also offer
> a complete sport pilot package costing $4290, you can get a PP here for
> that !
>
> --
> Patrick Dixon
> student SP
> aircraft structural mech
>

Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes them up on
that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly a 601XL unless there
business model has them paying the thing off in 1000 hours.

I was planning on going there or to one of the other sportsplanes.com
centers for some dual and time in model before I do my first flight.
Hopefully by then the price will have dropped. Either that or find out who
is financing the plane there will probably be a repo in a few months.

[W P Dixon]

Yep!
I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no less
!!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that price. Of
course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and maintenance of a
new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old plane. Well if the maintenance
on a new sport plane is more than the maintenance and upkeep of a 40-60 year
old "sport category" plane..I don't want one!
And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They cost in
the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ???? I don't
think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be interested in flying a 601
to keep them afloat. Especially ones that need to get a sport pilot cert.
May want to hold out for that repo ;)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...
>
>>
>
> Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes them up on
> that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly a 601XL unless
> there business model has them paying the thing off in 1000 hours.
>
> I was planning on going there or to one of the other sportsplanes.com
> centers for some dual and time in model before I do my first flight.
> Hopefully by then the price will have dropped. Either that or find out who
> is financing the plane there will probably be a repo in a few months.
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

The plane costs around $80K he's nuts and when I meet him and I'm sure I
will I'll tell him so.

He's flying the plane all over the place to fly-ins and the like. He
probably is trying to pay for all of his flying and it isn't going to work.

Mark my words the price will drop or the repo man will come.


"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Yep!
> I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no less
> !!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that price. Of
> course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and maintenance of a
> new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old plane. Well if the
> maintenance on a new sport plane is more than the maintenance and upkeep
> of a 40-60 year old "sport category" plane..I don't want one!
> And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They cost in
> the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ???? I
> don't think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be interested in
> flying a 601 to keep them afloat. Especially ones that need to get a sport
> pilot cert. May want to hold out for that repo ;)
>
> Patrick
> student SP
> aircraft structural mech
>
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...
>>
>>>
>>
>> Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes them up on
>> that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly a 601XL unless
>> there business model has them paying the thing off in 1000 hours.
>>
>> I was planning on going there or to one of the other sportsplanes.com
>> centers for some dual and time in model before I do my first flight.
>> Hopefully by then the price will have dropped. Either that or find out
>> who is financing the plane there will probably be a repo in a few months.
>>
>

[[email protected]]

I bet I am one of thousands of low time pilots (PPL for 2 years and 170
hours) that looks at sport pilot planes as chance to fly new,
interesting, and most of all cheap aircraft.

I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane. If the new sport
pilot planes cost more than a PA28-140 or C-172, I think sport pilot
will just become flying for thoose who can't get a medical. Then FBO's
will never get enough hours on there planes to be profitable.

Sport Pilot planes need to be no frills, cheap, and fun to succeed.


Give me a Piper Cub and a tent!




Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> The plane costs around $80K he's nuts and when I meet him and I'm sure I
> will I'll tell him so.
>
> He's flying the plane all over the place to fly-ins and the like. He
> probably is trying to pay for all of his flying and it isn't going to work.
>
> Mark my words the price will drop or the repo man will come.
>
>
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yep!
> > I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no less
> > !!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that price. Of
> > course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and maintenance of a
> > new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old plane. Well if the
> > maintenance on a new sport plane is more than the maintenance and upkeep
> > of a 40-60 year old "sport category" plane..I don't want one!
> > And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They cost in
> > the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ???? I
> > don't think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be interested in
> > flying a 601 to keep them afloat. Especially ones that need to get a sport
> > pilot cert. May want to hold out for that repo ;)
> >
> > Patrick
> > student SP
> > aircraft structural mech
> >
> > "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
> > news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes them up on
> >> that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly a 601XL unless
> >> there business model has them paying the thing off in 1000 hours.
> >>
> >> I was planning on going there or to one of the other sportsplanes.com
> >> centers for some dual and time in model before I do my first flight.
> >> Hopefully by then the price will have dropped. Either that or find out
> >> who is financing the plane there will probably be a repo in a few months.
> >>
> >

[Cub Driver]

On 12 Oct 2005 22:04:09 -0700, wrote:

>I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
>the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane.

Dream on! I pay $75 wet for a Cub that is worth $35,000 tops. If the
plane you want to fly costs $80,000, you are going to pay north of
$100/hour for the privilege of sitting in it with the engine running.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Gig 601XL Builder]

He's over pricing even based on sportsplanes.com's own business model.

http://sportsplanes.com/Content.aspx?Page=Lease%20601
Operating Cost at 700 hours per year is estimated to be $45.03

700hrs/yr is only 1.9 hr per day flying.

Cost of debt service for a loan of $54,500 over 12 yrs. at 9% is $620/month
or $10.63/hr based on 700 hrs per yr.

Average school may charge $69.00 per hr including fuel.

Gives profit of $13.34/hr

Annual Profit of $9,338.00 per airplane after paying all monthly payments
and operating costs

Note: costs may change.

This is an estimate







"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Oct 2005 22:04:09 -0700, wrote:
>
>>I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
>>the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane.
>
> Dream on! I pay $75 wet for a Cub that is worth $35,000 tops. If the
> plane you want to fly costs $80,000, you are going to pay north of
> $100/hour for the privilege of sitting in it with the engine running.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[TaxSrv]

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:
> He's over pricing even based on sportsplanes.com's own business
model.
>
> Operating Cost at 700 hours per year is estimated to be $45.03
>
> Cost of debt service...$10.63/hr

Folks not in the accounting business should opine only, with
disclaimer.

Gross profit goes toward all your other costs, like the FBO owner
wants a salary matching middle America at least. And exorbitant
charges to the airport for space. Etc., etc.

A rule in restaurants is just double your food costs for menu
price, and many still fail. A tavern can fail at triple the cost
of booze. So your cash out costs of $55.66 times two is a rental
rate of $111.

A grocery store at $5 million gross, on a narrow gross margin, can
fail. Are there many of those even around?

Fred F.

[W P Dixon]

Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! ;) But still 75
sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel prices
, but still is a great deal.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message >
> Dream on! I pay $75 wet for a Cub that is worth $35,000 tops. If the
> plane you want to fly costs $80,000, you are going to pay north of
> $100/hour for the privilege of sitting in it with the engine running.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[W P Dixon]

And maybe people not working in aviation should as well ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
>
> Folks not in the accounting business should opine only, with
> disclaimer.
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> "Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:
>> He's over pricing even based on sportsplanes.com's own business
> model.
>>
>> Operating Cost at 700 hours per year is estimated to be $45.03
>>
>> Cost of debt service...$10.63/hr
>
> Folks not in the accounting business should opine only, with
> disclaimer.
>


Hey, the FBO in question (and he really isn't an FBO, just a guy with a
plane to rent and an instructor to teach) is the one that decided to sign-up
with a group (sportsplanes.com) that published the expected rental rates for
what he is going to rent. One would assume a large percentage of the
customers that come to him are going to come from the website where the
information I quoted is openly available.

Anybody, and I would hope that would include those in the accounting
business, wouldn't expect to make a living off of renting one SLSA. If he
breaks even on his own flying of said airplane he should be a very happy
camper.

[ET]

wrote in
oups.com:

> I bet I am one of thousands of low time pilots (PPL for 2 years and
> 170 hours) that looks at sport pilot planes as chance to fly new,
> interesting, and most of all cheap aircraft.
>
> I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
> the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane. If the new sport
> pilot planes cost more than a PA28-140 or C-172, I think sport pilot
> will just become flying for thoose who can't get a medical. Then
> FBO's will never get enough hours on there planes to be profitable.
>
> Sport Pilot planes need to be no frills, cheap, and fun to succeed.
>
>
> Give me a Piper Cub and a tent!
>
>
>
>
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> The plane costs around $80K he's nuts and when I meet him and I'm
>> sure I will I'll tell him so.
>>
>> He's flying the plane all over the place to fly-ins and the like. He
>> probably is trying to pay for all of his flying and it isn't going to
>> work.
>>
>> Mark my words the price will drop or the repo man will come.
>>
>>
>> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Yep!
>> > I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no
>> > less
>> > !!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that
>> > price. Of course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and
>> > maintenance of a new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old
>> > plane. Well if the maintenance on a new sport plane is more than
>> > the maintenance and upkeep of a 40-60 year old "sport category"
>> > plane..I don't want one!
>> > And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They
>> > cost in
>> > the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ????
>> > I don't think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be
>> > interested in flying a 601 to keep them afloat. Especially ones
>> > that need to get a sport pilot cert. May want to hold out for that
>> > repo ;)
>> >
>> > Patrick
>> > student SP
>> > aircraft structural mech
>> >
>> > "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
>> > news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes
>> >> them up on that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly
>> >> a 601XL unless there business model has them paying the thing off
>> >> in 1000 hours.
>> >>
>> >> I was planning on going there or to one of the other
>> >> sportsplanes.com centers for some dual and time in model before I
>> >> do my first flight. Hopefully by then the price will have dropped.
>> >> Either that or find out who is financing the plane there will
>> >> probably be a repo in a few months.
>> >>
>> >
>


he's doing it because he can.... Right now there are only 2 places in
the country that are openly offering concentrated SP instruction, this
one, and St. Charles Flying service in Mo. Funny thing is though, the
SportStar that St Charles is using is only $73-$79/hr and costs a cool
$100k in its configuration. They are losing so much money on that
plane, they've ordered another one <HEH>!.


So, they WILL get some east coasters to come out for a week and do some
SP training in VA, but if "I" was doing it, I'd be flying to MO..

There is also a flight school in/near Phoenix with an Allegro (also
rents in the $70's).... I don't know if they will do an accelerated
program though.

It's all about what the market will bere. Go to Orange County
California, they've got a Piper Cub you can rent for $100/hr... then an
extra $40/hr for the instuctor. You can actually go to the
sunriseaviation website and see that it's booked an average of 1.5
hrs/day....

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[W P Dixon]

Let's not count out the school up around Boston somewhere that is training
in Ercoupes..they have several.
Also a place in middle Georgia training in Flightstars/and a Champ available
for tailwheel endorsements. There are places out there, some on the net some
not. Just have to shop around. I hope to make it over by St Louis and fly
their Luscombe one of these days.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"ET" > wrote in message
...
> wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>> I bet I am one of thousands of low time pilots (PPL for 2 years and
>> 170 hours) that looks at sport pilot planes as chance to fly new,
>> interesting, and most of all cheap aircraft.
>>
>> I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
>> the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane. If the new sport
>> pilot planes cost more than a PA28-140 or C-172, I think sport pilot
>> will just become flying for thoose who can't get a medical. Then
>> FBO's will never get enough hours on there planes to be profitable.
>>
>> Sport Pilot planes need to be no frills, cheap, and fun to succeed.
>>
>>
>> Give me a Piper Cub and a tent!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>> The plane costs around $80K he's nuts and when I meet him and I'm
>>> sure I will I'll tell him so.
>>>
>>> He's flying the plane all over the place to fly-ins and the like. He
>>> probably is trying to pay for all of his flying and it isn't going to
>>> work.
>>>
>>> Mark my words the price will drop or the repo man will come.
>>>
>>>
>>> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > Yep!
>>> > I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no
>>> > less
>>> > !!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that
>>> > price. Of course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and
>>> > maintenance of a new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old
>>> > plane. Well if the maintenance on a new sport plane is more than
>>> > the maintenance and upkeep of a 40-60 year old "sport category"
>>> > plane..I don't want one!
>>> > And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They
>>> > cost in
>>> > the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ????
>>> > I don't think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be
>>> > interested in flying a 601 to keep them afloat. Especially ones
>>> > that need to get a sport pilot cert. May want to hold out for that
>>> > repo ;)
>>> >
>>> > Patrick
>>> > student SP
>>> > aircraft structural mech
>>> >
>>> > "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
>>> > news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes
>>> >> them up on that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly
>>> >> a 601XL unless there business model has them paying the thing off
>>> >> in 1000 hours.
>>> >>
>>> >> I was planning on going there or to one of the other
>>> >> sportsplanes.com centers for some dual and time in model before I
>>> >> do my first flight. Hopefully by then the price will have dropped.
>>> >> Either that or find out who is financing the plane there will
>>> >> probably be a repo in a few months.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>
>
>
> he's doing it because he can.... Right now there are only 2 places in
> the country that are openly offering concentrated SP instruction, this
> one, and St. Charles Flying service in Mo. Funny thing is though, the
> SportStar that St Charles is using is only $73-$79/hr and costs a cool
> $100k in its configuration. They are losing so much money on that
> plane, they've ordered another one <HEH>!.
>
>
> So, they WILL get some east coasters to come out for a week and do some
> SP training in VA, but if "I" was doing it, I'd be flying to MO..
>
> There is also a flight school in/near Phoenix with an Allegro (also
> rents in the $70's).... I don't know if they will do an accelerated
> program though.
>
> It's all about what the market will bere. Go to Orange County
> California, they've got a Piper Cub you can rent for $100/hr... then an
> extra $40/hr for the instuctor. You can actually go to the
> sunriseaviation website and see that it's booked an average of 1.5
> hrs/day....
>
> --
> -- ET >:-)
>
> "A common mistake people make when trying to design something
> completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
> fools."---- Douglas Adams

[[email protected]]

Wow, I sounds like you guys have put a lot more thought it to this than
I did.
Currently I am a memeber of a club. I totally understand that a club,
set to break even and with many volunter hours is much cheaper than a
business that actually has to pay people let a lone make a profit.

(my club was $1500 to buy in C172 aprox $65 hour with current fuel
prices)

I started thinking and I guess sport pilot planes aren't going to be
any cheaper than a C152. The difference in fuel burn just dosen't
make up for the fact that a new airplane means more debt / interest
and insurance costs. I have yet to be proven that a rotex or jabiru is
much cheaper to operate than a Lyc.

I am still will to rent one from time to time if anyone ever decides to
rent out one in the Seattle area. (feel free to email me if you know
where a rental is)

I still hope the sport pilots rule encourages for pilots. Of course
how can anyone get a license in only 20 hours but that's another story.

[W P Dixon]

Mike,
Like the required minimum times for a Rec or a Private Pilot, it is just
that ....the minimum. I worry about folks who think the goal should be the
minimum. I focus on being a proficient pilot. How many hours that takes me,
well it will just be how many hours it takes me! ;) I hope to be wrapping up
soon timewise. At around 20 duel, but still need cross country and solos.
Lack of ability to fly a sport plane locally can add to the time as
well. I started in Cherokee/Warrior , 8.5 in those, and then started on
taildraggers ..and it really was alot like starting over. Add in there that
I am also doing spin training, which most Private Pilots nowdays don't do I
am told..and yep it is going to run me over the minimum hours. I want to be
good, not a minimum ;)
I will finish up on the controlled airspace endorsement and the 87 knot
endorsement too. I think doing all of that will make me a good rookie pilot!
;) When I get my certificate I will be like every new pilot, I will have a
certificate to really learn.
One thing is true..the sport pilot rule has alot of prices jacked up !
Old planes that you could hardly give away before are selling like hot cakes
for a good chunk of change. And prices on new ones are jacked up as well. As
for their rental..they are a sport plane, no matter how new and
shiney....none are speed demons. They can only cruise at 120 knots no matter
how slick it looks. It will not have the payload of most GA
airplanes....it's a sport plane. I can rent an Archer for 100 bucks, a 172
for less than that. They are not new...but the old "sport planes" can be
rented pretty dern cheap. 57 an hour last time due to a rise in gas cost.
Good deal if you ask me!
Let us this as a scenario for comparison. If you went to a car rental
place and they had a 2000 Mustang GT for 100 a day, or a Focus for 100 a
day......which would be rented? Right , you can bet your sweet bippy the
Focus is staying parked. Now put sport plane(plane by hour of course) in
there instead of Focus. Still is going to stay parked more than any other
one. Lower the rate of the Focus or sport plane to 60 and by golly it's a
miracle ,there is a demand. I think new sport planes are going to have to
accept the fact that they are a sport plane always will be! For a salesman
to compare a sport plane to normal new GA is IMHO ridiculas.
No matter if you put a glass panel in it or not..it still has the same
cruise , the same gross weight and all the other limitations. I'll be the
first to admit alot of folks (especially if they have money to burn) would
have to fly anything with the latest "Gizmo" in it. But that group is not
what is going to make or break sport pilot. Normal everyday folks wanting to
fly as cheap as possible will. You have to get them in there..130 bucks an
hour is not going to do that.
Make that rental so it even attracts regular PP's and wow look at how
much your plane is getting rented out. I don't know of many PP's that would
rent a sport plane for what they could rent a 25 year old faster plane for
especially if they wanted to actually go on alittle trip. Right now there is
a difference as to what is cost effective to FBO/owner and the consumer. We
all know if the consumer does not see it as cost effective they won't do it.
No consumer, another aviation biz bites the dust.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech


> wrote in message
ps.com...
.. Of course
> how can anyone get a license in only 20 hours but that's another story.
>

[W P Dixon]

Mike,
From the EAA site these are in WA. I don't have a clue where they are in
comparison to you but what the heck!
College Place, WA Allan Fisher509-529-9370 has a RANS S-12 , Enumclaw,
Steve Fribley 206-234-1306 has a Taylorcraft BC-12, Spanaway, Ray Blatt,
253-847-4875, has a RANS -S9 and RANS S10, Seattle David Overman
253-241-9891, Sparrowhawk AutoGyro (now that'd be different!)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> Wow, I sounds like you guys have put a lot more thought it to this than
> I did.
> Currently I am a memeber of a club. I totally understand that a club,
> set to break even and with many volunter hours is much cheaper than a
> business that actually has to pay people let a lone make a profit.
>
> (my club was $1500 to buy in C172 aprox $65 hour with current fuel
> prices)
>
> I started thinking and I guess sport pilot planes aren't going to be
> any cheaper than a C152. The difference in fuel burn just dosen't
> make up for the fact that a new airplane means more debt / interest
> and insurance costs. I have yet to be proven that a rotex or jabiru is
> much cheaper to operate than a Lyc.
>
> I am still will to rent one from time to time if anyone ever decides to
> rent out one in the Seattle area. (feel free to email me if you know
> where a rental is)
>
> I still hope the sport pilots rule encourages for pilots. Of course
> how can anyone get a license in only 20 hours but that's another story.
>

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote:

>Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! ;) But still 75
>sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel prices
>, but still is a great deal.

It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
still be north of $100/hr.

I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:26:07 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote:

>There are places out there,

There's a list of Cub-friendly airports (and Cub instruction) at
www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm

I'd be glad of any additions.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[W P Dixon]

You in fact may not!, and it is my opinion that a sport plane new or not
should not cost 80,000 . ;) To make it the planes need to be kept simple and
cheap. If aviation refuses to have a reasonable price on a sport plane and
reasonable rental rates then they will simply be bankrupt. Not enough rich
doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy won't be able to
afford a 80 G airplane.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> > wrote:
>
>>Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! ;) But still 75
>>sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel
>>prices
>>, but still is a great deal.
>
> It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
> Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
> still be north of $100/hr.
>
> I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
> price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
> hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.
>
>
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Lakeview Bill]

"Not enough rich doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy
won't be able to afford a 80 G airplane."

Perhaps not, but you really should take a look at this:
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/nov/lsa_boom.html

Here's a representative quote, from Tim Elliott, the president of American
Legend Aircraft of Texas: "The rate of new aircraft and new customers
entering this market is incredible. We're currently sold out of production
through May of 2006...".

I'm not necessarily speaking directly to you, Patrick, but from some of the
comments I've seen on this thread, I'm afraid that some of the posters
really need to get out and take a look around at what is actually happening
in the LSA market...



"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> You in fact may not!, and it is my opinion that a sport plane new or not
> should not cost 80,000 . ;) To make it the planes need to be kept simple
and
> cheap. If aviation refuses to have a reasonable price on a sport plane and
> reasonable rental rates then they will simply be bankrupt. Not enough rich
> doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy won't be able
to
> afford a 80 G airplane.
>
> Patrick
> student SP
> aircraft structural mech
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! ;) But still 75
> >>sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel
> >>prices
> >>, but still is a great deal.
> >
> > It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
> > Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
> > still be north of $100/hr.
> >
> > I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
> > price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
> > hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- all the best, Dan Ford
> >
> > email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
> >
> > Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> > Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> > the blog: www.danford.net
> > In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
>

[W P Dixon]

Bill,
Yes it is happening , but like I am starting to see the jacked up prices
of the older planes that meet the category slowly return to a more normal
price range..still alittle high ;) , I expect this boom to be a temporary
thing. As the rich folks spend their money to get into it fast. Then the
market will just dry up or be such a slow trickle that it can't sustain
itself. Of course that is what I THINK is going to happen. If I get proven
wrong so be it!
And no matter what boom there is now, cheaper to fly would make more of
a boom ...and a lasting boom. One that is needed by GA. We have to get new
blood into flying..at current prices I don't see it happening for an
extended period of time.
So the companies have a hard time right now meeting demand..let's face
it . There demand right now isn't regular Joe's . Sooner or later the well
will go dry without putting the regular Joe's in there. MHO of course. I
know several guys around here that will not pay those rates nor buy a sport
plane with that price tag, and a few on the newsgroup as well. I think the
article is hyped up to a degree..if sport pilot "for everyone" was
absolutely taking off and the planes in a decent price range....FBO's would
be the ones buying them to train people in. And that is not happening. There
are a few organizations that are getting them together to form new FBO's,
and I wish them all success. But the regular FBO's that have been at the
airports for years are not buying them.
I think we would all agree that if the FBO's won't buy and train then it
makes it even more unlikely that the high priced sport planes will continue
to sell after the initial boom. To keep selling planes you have to bring in
new customers...and the fact is alot of folks can not spend that money on a
sport plane.
Thanks for the article Bill! But what I do see in that market is just a
temporary phase of something that is still new. When the Henry Ford of sport
planes figures it out and builds one for the price of 25,000...then you will
see a real boom. FBO's will buy because it will then be cost effective .
Consumers will buy then . So for now I guess we can all sit back and watch
what happens...and I still won't pay that much to rent a sport plane ;)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Lakeview Bill" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Not enough rich doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular
> guy
> won't be able to afford a 80 G airplane."
>
> Perhaps not, but you really should take a look at this:
> http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/nov/lsa_boom.html
>
> Here's a representative quote, from Tim Elliott, the president of American
> Legend Aircraft of Texas: "The rate of new aircraft and new customers
> entering this market is incredible. We're currently sold out of production
> through May of 2006...".
>
> I'm not necessarily speaking directly to you, Patrick, but from some of
> the
> comments I've seen on this thread, I'm afraid that some of the posters
> really need to get out and take a look around at what is actually
> happening
> in the LSA market...
>
>
>
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> You in fact may not!, and it is my opinion that a sport plane new or not
>> should not cost 80,000 . ;) To make it the planes need to be kept simple
> and
>> cheap. If aviation refuses to have a reasonable price on a sport plane
>> and
>> reasonable rental rates then they will simply be bankrupt. Not enough
>> rich
>> doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy won't be able
> to
>> afford a 80 G airplane.
>>
>> Patrick
>> student SP
>> aircraft structural mech
>>
>> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! ;) But still
>> >>75
>> >>sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel
>> >>prices
>> >>, but still is a great deal.
>> >
>> > It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
>> > Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
>> > still be north of $100/hr.
>> >
>> > I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
>> > price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
>> > hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -- all the best, Dan Ford
>> >
>> > email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>> >
>> > Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
>> > Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
>> > the blog: www.danford.net
>> > In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
>>
>
>

[Morgans]

"W P Dixon" > wrote

> Thanks for the article Bill! But what I do see in that market is just
a
> temporary phase of something that is still new. When the Henry Ford of
sport
> planes figures it out and builds one for the price of 25,000...then you
will
> see a real boom. FBO's will buy because it will then be cost effective .
> Consumers will buy then . So for now I guess we can all sit back and watch
> what happens...and I still won't pay that much to rent a sport plane ;)

That hits the nail, squarely on the head. 'Nuff said, for me!
--
Jim in NC

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:15:21 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote:

>it is my opinion that a sport plane new or not
>should not cost 80,000

I see. Well, that settles that!


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:15:21 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote:

>You in fact may not!,

I hope your flying is better than your math.

It is extremely unlikely that the Cub mentioned @ $57/hour is worth
more than $30,000. If you pay $57 for a $30K airplane, then you might
expect to pay 2.67 times as much for an $80K airplane, or $152/hour.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[W P Dixon]

No need to try to be insulting there Cubbie!;) You are using math...and that
is fine. But good old common sense "regular folks" economics is where the
"real" math does not add up. Doesn't matter what it looks like in a
companies books..when people , the consumer, sees no cost effectiveness..it
won't hunt. That is the point I am making...not trying to argue math with
you. ;)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:15:21 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> > wrote:
>
>>You in fact may not!,
>
> I hope your flying is better than your math.
>
> It is extremely unlikely that the Cub mentioned @ $57/hour is worth
> more than $30,000. If you pay $57 for a $30K airplane, then you might
> expect to pay 2.67 times as much for an $80K airplane, or $152/hour.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com