Laser Pointer as Signal Device?

[Jay Honeck]

With the days growing shorter, and the temperatures nipping at the freezing
level, we're starting to assemble our "survival kit" that we always keep in
the back of our aircraft in winter.

All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering if
we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets, and
food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?

Or would it only get me arrested? (After rescue, of course...)

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

While it may or may not get you arrested, you don't want one of the dinky
red laser pointers for this use. You want one of these really bright green
ones.


http://www.bigha.com/laser/index.php




"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Bxv3f.435623$_o.343983@attbi_s71...
> With the days growing shorter, and the temperatures nipping at the
> freezing level, we're starting to assemble our "survival kit" that we
> always keep in the back of our aircraft in winter.
>
> All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering
> if we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets,
> and food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?
>
> Or would it only get me arrested? (After rescue, of course...)
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Bxv3f.435623$_o.343983@attbi_s71...
> With the days growing shorter, and the temperatures nipping at the
> freezing level, we're starting to assemble our "survival kit" that we
> always keep in the back of our aircraft in winter.
>
> All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering
> if we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets,
> and food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?
>
> Or would it only get me arrested? (After rescue, of course...)
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Keep a couple of blank CDs handy.

They're extremely reflective and the hole works really well for aiming.

Jay B

[Jay Honeck]

> Keep a couple of blank CDs handy.
>
> They're extremely reflective and the hole works really well for aiming.

Yeah, I've got them in the kit -- but they don't do much good on overcast
days.

Or at night.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Darrell S]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Keep a couple of blank CDs handy.
>>
>> They're extremely reflective and the hole works really well for
>> aiming.
>
> Yeah, I've got them in the kit -- but they don't do much good on
> overcast days.
>
> Or at night.

Hmmmm. I assume you mean to use the CDs to reflect sunlight toward a rescue
aircraft. The reflected light doesn't go in the direction of the hole, does
it? It would leave the CD on an opposite angle from the sun to the CD.
Explain. I must be missing something here.

--

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

[gatt]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message

> Keep a couple of blank CDs handy.
>
> They're extremely reflective and the hole works really well for aiming.

That's a brilliant idea, Jay. Thanks!

[gatt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message

> Yeah, I've got them in the kit -- but they don't do much good on overcast
> days.
>
> Or at night.

I bought a 1.5million cw rechargeable spotlight for $10 from Radio Shack.
It's lighter than a maglight, insanely bright. You want to draw attention
to yourself at night, try that. When not flying I keep it next to my bed,
btw, in case of home intrusion. It's blinding.

-c

[[email protected]]

Jay Beckman > wrote:
> Keep a couple of blank CDs handy.

> They're extremely reflective and the hole works really well for aiming.

Actually, Civil Air Patrol and the local search and rescue group
tested this, and they really are not effective for signaling.
If it is all you have, use it.

Much better: USAF 4"x6" or 5"x7" glass signal mirror, with sighting
hole.


Best regards,

LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, Colorado Wing Checkpilot (airplanes and gliders),
Assistant Glider Program Manager, Colorado Wing, CAP

--
LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, CO-Wing, Thompson Valley CS., Ft Collins, CO
CELL/VM: 970 231-6325, CELL Message: 9702316325'at'mmode.com
EMAIL: jer'at'frii.com WEB: WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 233 Young Eagles!

[Peter Duniho]

"Darrell S" > wrote in message
news:XBw3f.4816$gj1.4478@fed1read05...
> Hmmmm. I assume you mean to use the CDs to reflect sunlight toward a
> rescue aircraft. The reflected light doesn't go in the direction of the
> hole, does it? It would leave the CD on an opposite angle from the sun to
> the CD. Explain. I must be missing something here.

Only thing you're missing, it sounds like, is that you haven't yet had the
chance to learn to use a signal mirror. That can be easily corrected. :)

You use it just like you'd use a normal signal mirror (usually made of
stainless steel, with a hole in the middle). You sight through the hole to
aim the light at your target. A common technique is to hold your finger up;
looking through the hole with your finger aligned with the target, if the
light is hitting your finger, it's also hitting your target.

Interestingly, since the hole in a CD is *much* larger than in the typical
signal mirror, you can keep your target in view at greater angles of mirror
deflection than with a standard signal mirror. This ought to assist in
allowing one to signal a target with the sun farther away from an optimal
position than with a standard signal mirror (I admit, I haven't done an
actual comparison, so that's just theory :) ).

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message ...
> Actually, Civil Air Patrol and the local search and rescue group
> tested this, and they really are not effective for signaling.
> If it is all you have, use it.
>
> Much better: USAF 4"x6" or 5"x7" glass signal mirror, with sighting
> hole.

Did you compare them to stainless steel mirrors?

I would expect the big problem with CDs is that they don't actually have a
very smooth surface. The light is reflected very unevenly. But I wonder if
one is comaparing them to the commonly found 2"x3" stainless steel mirrors
if the CD's don't come out to perform roughly the same or better (the extra
area compensating for uneven reflections).

Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror? The only ones I've seen
are the smaller 2"x3" ones. My quick Google search turned up plenty of
side-view mirrors for SUVs, some survival equipment that includes 5x7 tarps
or blankets, but no glass 5"x7" signal mirrors. :(

Pete

[[email protected]]

Peter Duniho > wrote:
> > wrote in message ...
> > Actually, Civil Air Patrol and the local search and rescue group
> > tested this, and they really are not effective for signaling.
> > If it is all you have, use it.
> >
> > Much better: USAF 4"x6" or 5"x7" glass signal mirror, with sighting
> > hole.

> Did you compare them to stainless steel mirrors?

Yes, both stainless steel and plastic mirrors. The glass was FAR superior.
We could see the glass mirrors when we could not see the others...
We had a line of people standing 100' apart signaling the airplane.
THe air crews stated universally "the glass mirror 'blew us out of
the cockpit it was so bright'".

> I would expect the big problem with CDs is that they don't actually have a
> very smooth surface. The light is reflected very unevenly. But I wonder if
> one is comaparing them to the commonly found 2"x3" stainless steel mirrors
> if the CD's don't come out to perform roughly the same or better (the extra
> area compensating for uneven reflections).

Unfortuantely, neither the stainless nor CDs worked well.

> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror? The only ones I've seen
> are the smaller 2"x3" ones. My quick Google search turned up plenty of
> side-view mirrors for SUVs, some survival equipment that includes 5x7 tarps
> or blankets, but no glass 5"x7" signal mirrors. :(

Well, you're correct... what I am seeing is 3x5 as the largest.

Google "Wilderness Institude of Survival Education" (WISE) they have
tested this stuff in the field and sell what works. WISE teaches the
survival course the Colorado Wing of Civil Air Patrol. I've taken the
course 3 times and done the winter campout once. I dramatically
changed the contents of my survival kit after that information and
experience. :-)

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 234 Young Eagles!

[Jose]

> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror?

More to the point, Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror that
will survive an airplane crash?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror?
>
> More to the point, Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror that
> will survive an airplane crash?

I expect that if a person in the airplane survives well enough to use a
5"x7" mirror, that the 5"x7" could be stowed in the airplane in a
sufficiently well-protected spot for it too to survive the crash. Probably
just keeping it away from the sides of the fuselage, and not packed against
hard objects, would be sufficient.

However, sure enough at the web site of the company Jer/ mentions --
http://www.wisesurvival.com/wisesupplies.shtml -- there is only a 3"x5"
mirror. I'm still wondering where one might find any 5"x7" signal mirror,
crashworthy or otherwise.

Pete

[AES]

In article <Bxv3f.435623$_o.343983@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>
> All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering if
> we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets, and
> food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?
>

Answer is "Yes, probably work very well" -- esp. if you get one of the
green ones, though they're substantially more costly than the red ones
($150 vs $15).

Post your query to sci.optics or rec.skiing.backcountry and you'll
probably get more detailed answers.

[Morgans]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
> > Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror?
>
> More to the point, Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror that
> will survive an airplane crash?

Inside of a sturdy metal case?

Ba-dum-dum <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Michelle P]

Jay,
You may also want to consider:

http://www.acrelectronics.com/military/ms2000/ms2000.htm
If you go down at night they will most likely be looking for you with
Night vision goggles.
Michelle



Jay Honeck wrote:

>With the days growing shorter, and the temperatures nipping at the freezing
>level, we're starting to assemble our "survival kit" that we always keep in
>the back of our aircraft in winter.
>
>All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering if
>we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets, and
>food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?
>
>Or would it only get me arrested? (After rescue, of course...)
>
>:-)
>
>

[Skywise]

AES > wrote in
:

> In article <Bxv3f.435623$_o.343983@attbi_s71>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>>
>> All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me
>> wondering if we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of
>> knives, blankets, and food? Anyone think one of these would work as
>> a signaling device?
>>
>
> Answer is "Yes, probably work very well" -- esp. if you get one of the
> green ones, though they're substantially more costly than the red ones
> ($150 vs $15).
>
> Post your query to sci.optics or rec.skiing.backcountry and you'll
> probably get more detailed answers.

I would add that if you do get a pointer, green is the most visible,
and keep it to a legal <5mW pointer. Pointers are limited to <5mW
for a reason - it's *extremely* unlikely to cause any eye damage.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? Supernews Sucks!

[LWG]

Jay, check out www.equipped.org. There are tests done on laser pointers
as signalling devices. There are also leads on aviation quality signalling
mirrors for about 10 bucks. Also, great articles on ditching.

Les



"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Jay,
> You may also want to consider:
>
> http://www.acrelectronics.com/military/ms2000/ms2000.htm
> If you go down at night they will most likely be looking for you with
> Night vision goggles.
> Michelle
>
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>With the days growing shorter, and the temperatures nipping at the
>>freezing level, we're starting to assemble our "survival kit" that we
>>always keep in the back of our aircraft in winter.
>>
>>All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering
>>if we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets,
>>and food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?
>>
>>Or would it only get me arrested? (After rescue, of course...)
>>
>>:-)
>>

[Roger]

Jer,

Could you share your survival kit contents list with us?

Roger @ MD43 C150E
=========================================
> wrote in message ...
> Peter Duniho > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Actually, Civil Air Patrol and the local search and rescue group
>> > tested this, and they really are not effective for signaling.
>> > If it is all you have, use it.
>> >
>> > Much better: USAF 4"x6" or 5"x7" glass signal mirror, with sighting
>> > hole.
>
>> Did you compare them to stainless steel mirrors?
>
> Yes, both stainless steel and plastic mirrors. The glass was FAR
> superior.
> We could see the glass mirrors when we could not see the others...
> We had a line of people standing 100' apart signaling the airplane.
> THe air crews stated universally "the glass mirror 'blew us out of
> the cockpit it was so bright'".
>
>> I would expect the big problem with CDs is that they don't actually have
>> a
>> very smooth surface. The light is reflected very unevenly. But I wonder
>> if
>> one is comaparing them to the commonly found 2"x3" stainless steel
>> mirrors
>> if the CD's don't come out to perform roughly the same or better (the
>> extra
>> area compensating for uneven reflections).
>
> Unfortuantely, neither the stainless nor CDs worked well.
>
>> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror? The only ones I've seen
>> are the smaller 2"x3" ones. My quick Google search turned up plenty of
>> side-view mirrors for SUVs, some survival equipment that includes 5x7
>> tarps
>> or blankets, but no glass 5"x7" signal mirrors. :(
>
> Well, you're correct... what I am seeing is 3x5 as the largest.
>
> Google "Wilderness Institude of Survival Education" (WISE) they have
> tested this stuff in the field and sell what works. WISE teaches the
> survival course the Colorado Wing of Civil Air Patrol. I've taken the
> course 3 times and done the winter campout once. I dramatically
> changed the contents of my survival kit after that information and
> experience. :-)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard
>
> --
> Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
> CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
> C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
> CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 234 Young Eagles!

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:01:37 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<Bxv3f.435623$_o.343983@attbi_s71>::

>Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?

Why wouldn't you just use your handheld?

[George Patterson]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> I'm still wondering where one might find any 5"x7" signal mirror,
> crashworthy or otherwise.

Survival Tech's ST-1450 kit contains a 5x7" "signal mirror", but AVWeb didn't
think much of it. They said it was a mis-labeled camping mirror.

The OP could have simply misread an ad somewhere. The 3x5" mirrors are
advertised in many places as being 5x7cm.

The largest signal mirror I found in my search was 4" x 5".

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Mark T. Dame]

Jay Beckman wrote:
>
> Keep a couple of blank CDs handy.
>
> They're extremely reflective and the hole works really well for aiming.

Never thought of that... Finally a use for all of those AOL CDs...


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"You're dead, Jim."
-- Star Trek: Dr. McCoy, "Amok Time"

[John]

Go to the review of the SRU-16/P Parachute Pack Survival Kit at
http://www.equipped.org/sru-16p_kit.htm . In the description of the
contents, check out the water container. Standby for immediate
flashback to Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove.

I will stop there . . .

blue skies all . . .

John

[gatt]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror?
>
> More to the point, Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror that
> will survive an airplane crash?

The one my father-in-law gave us from his old aerial search and rescue kit
(Oregon ANG) is highly-polished metal, like the shaving mirror I had in the
Marine Corps.

[Chris Schmelzer]

In article <Bxv3f.435623$_o.343983@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> With the days growing shorter, and the temperatures nipping at the freezing
> level, we're starting to assemble our "survival kit" that we always keep in
> the back of our aircraft in winter.
>
> All this talk about idiots shining lasers in pilots eyes has me wondering if
> we shouldn't add a laser pointer to the collection of knives, blankets, and
> food? Anyone think one of these would work as a signaling device?
>
> Or would it only get me arrested? (After rescue, of course...)
>
> :-)

As long as you get rescued! In the winter in the north the cot for
sleep and 3 squares of jail would be welcome....

check out www.equipped.org for more info on the rescue flare/laser flare
that is being SOLD as a rescue signalling device (basically just a heavy
duty bright red laser pointer....

Green would be even better.... My green laser pointers dot is visible on
a water tower >1 mile away!

--
Chris Schmelzer, MD

[Jack]

Jose wrote:
>> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror?
>
>
> More to the point, Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror that
> will survive an airplane crash?

It will survive if you do.

The thing is very thick tempered glass.


Jack

[Don Byrer]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:14:08 GMT, Jack > wrote:

>Jose wrote:
>>> Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror?
>>
>>
>> More to the point, Where does one find a 5"x7" glass signal mirror that
>> will survive an airplane crash?
>

5x7 sounds great...nice size and lots of area.

For cheap and durable, how about recycling an empty makeup compact
from your wife/gf/mom/etc. They ride around in purses 24/7. When's
the last time you saw one with a broken mirror?

--Don
Don Byrer
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Amateur Radio KJ5KB
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."

[Morgans]

"Don Byrer" > wrote

> For cheap and durable, how about recycling an empty makeup compact
> from your wife/gf/mom/etc. They ride around in purses 24/7. When's
> the last time you saw one with a broken mirror?

Bad question. Last time I looked at one, is the answer.

That said, it was still probably useable as a signal mirror.

The space inside could be used to carry a flint and striker and some bits of
cloth, or some fine steel wool, for use as a fire starter, like old flash
bulbs insides.
--
Jim in NC

[Don Byrer]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:39:31 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Don Byrer" > wrote
>
>> For cheap and durable, how about recycling an empty makeup compact
>> from your wife/gf/mom/etc. They ride around in purses 24/7. When's
>> the last time you saw one with a broken mirror?
>
>Bad question. Last time I looked at one, is the answer.
>
>That said, it was still probably useable as a signal mirror.
>
>The space inside could be used to carry a flint and striker and some bits of
>cloth, or some fine steel wool, for use as a fire starter, like old flash
>bulbs insides.

I must admit that was a little 'tongue in cheek'...I HAVE seen a few
broken ones...but the bigger ones could probably carry some matches,
as well....once you pull out the powder tray
Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry"

[Thomas Borchert]

Jack,

http://www.equipped.org/ is where you can learn all about survival gear
for pilots.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)