Sudden Flat Tire

[Kevin Kubiak]

Strange thing happened to me earlier this week (monday).
I flew from home base at KUGN to KDBQ with a friend
for a quick stop and then we were planning to fly up the Mississippi
to look for some fall colors.

Had a nice clear day with light winds. So we land at DBQ, I taxi over to the
FBO for a quick pit stop. Got back in the plane, got ATIS, contacted ground and
given taxi instruction to 36. So I'm # 2 in line, just finish mag check and
now I'm # 1. Start to move forward and seemed like the pedals were hare to
steer. I quickly think I got a flat nosewheel, and shut down the engine, worried
that I might strike the prop. Anyway, contact ground told them on problem and
plane behind me says yep it is flat.

FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as fast as it
entered. SO we now need a tow back to FBO. 2.5 hrs later I have new tire and
tube and we are off back to KUGN. Luckily I take the old tire & tube back.
Since the plane is owned by the club I'm a member in.

The general manager said I will be reimbursed for the repair, but was curious
about the flat. I was too since the tire looked to be relatively new.
In fact it was only replaced 2 weeks prior. The problem apparently was that
some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall and
punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can feel the steel
wire protruding through the sidewall.

Does this kind of thing happen frequently. Did I over react by shutting down
the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop strike
to ruin my day?

Could side load or bad landings, bouncing on the nose cause such a failure?
My landing just prior to the this occurring was fine, mains first, then slowly
down on the nose. Just curious. Also, what would happen if the tire went flat
during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the runway.
If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on the yolk.

Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

[Seth Masia]

I can't conceive of an operational situation that would cause a steel cord
to come adrift from inside the molded rubber. This wouldn't be an issue with
the tubeless tires on your car, but I'd hate to have it happen in the air
with an aviation tire -- bad news to land on a flat you didn't know about .
.. . . Sounds like a manufacturing defect to me. Someone should have a
heart-to-heart with the tire manufacturer.

Seth


"Kevin Kubiak" > wrote in message
...
> Strange thing happened to me earlier this week (monday).
> I flew from home base at KUGN to KDBQ with a friend
> for a quick stop and then we were planning to fly up the Mississippi
> to look for some fall colors.
>
> Had a nice clear day with light winds. So we land at DBQ, I taxi over to
> the
> FBO for a quick pit stop. Got back in the plane, got ATIS, contacted
> ground and
> given taxi instruction to 36. So I'm # 2 in line, just finish mag check
> and
> now I'm # 1. Start to move forward and seemed like the pedals were hare
> to steer. I quickly think I got a flat nosewheel, and shut down the
> engine, worried
> that I might strike the prop. Anyway, contact ground told them on problem
> and plane behind me says yep it is flat.
>
> FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as fast
> as it
> entered. SO we now need a tow back to FBO. 2.5 hrs later I have new
> tire and tube and we are off back to KUGN. Luckily I take the old tire &
> tube back. Since the plane is owned by the club I'm a member in.
>
> The general manager said I will be reimbursed for the repair, but was
> curious about the flat. I was too since the tire looked to be relatively
> new.
> In fact it was only replaced 2 weeks prior. The problem apparently was
> that
> some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall and
> punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can feel the
> steel
> wire protruding through the sidewall.
>
> Does this kind of thing happen frequently. Did I over react by shutting
> down the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop strike
> to ruin my day?
>
> Could side load or bad landings, bouncing on the nose cause such a
> failure?
> My landing just prior to the this occurring was fine, mains first, then
> slowly
> down on the nose. Just curious. Also, what would happen if the tire went
> flat
> during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the
> runway.
> If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on
> the yolk.
>
> Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

[NW_PILOT]

"Kevin Kubiak" > wrote in message
...
> Strange thing happened to me earlier this week (monday).
> I flew from home base at KUGN to KDBQ with a friend
> for a quick stop and then we were planning to fly up the Mississippi
> to look for some fall colors.
>
> Had a nice clear day with light winds. So we land at DBQ, I taxi over to
the
> FBO for a quick pit stop. Got back in the plane, got ATIS, contacted
ground and
> given taxi instruction to 36. So I'm # 2 in line, just finish mag check
and
> now I'm # 1. Start to move forward and seemed like the pedals were hare
to
> steer. I quickly think I got a flat nosewheel, and shut down the engine,
worried
> that I might strike the prop. Anyway, contact ground told them on problem
and
> plane behind me says yep it is flat.
>
> FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as fast
as it
> entered. SO we now need a tow back to FBO. 2.5 hrs later I have new
tire and
> tube and we are off back to KUGN. Luckily I take the old tire & tube
back.
> Since the plane is owned by the club I'm a member in.
>
> The general manager said I will be reimbursed for the repair, but was
curious
> about the flat. I was too since the tire looked to be relatively new.
> In fact it was only replaced 2 weeks prior. The problem apparently was
that
> some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall and
> punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can feel the
steel
> wire protruding through the sidewall.
>
> Does this kind of thing happen frequently. Did I over react by shutting
down
> the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop strike
> to ruin my day?
>
> Could side load or bad landings, bouncing on the nose cause such a
failure?
> My landing just prior to the this occurring was fine, mains first, then
slowly
> down on the nose. Just curious. Also, what would happen if the tire went
flat
> during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the
runway.
> If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on
the yolk.
>
> Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

Tire wasn't made by firestone was it?

Steven Rhine
CP-ASEL-IA

[Kevin Kubiak]

NW_PILOT wrote:

>
>
>
> Tire wasn't made by firestone was it?
>
> Steven Rhine
> CP-ASEL-IA
>
>
Don't really know. Funny now that you mention it
I had a problem with Firestone Tires on my
car 25 yrs ago. The same thing happened. The
steel belts shifted and started wearing through the sidewall.
I got lucky then too, because it was caught during
a routine oil change before I had a blowout.

Kevin Kubiak - PP-ASEL

[Skylune]

Thats strange. My car has run flat tires (making blow-outs impossible).
Aren't the same available for planes?

[Jose]

> Did I over react by shutting down the engine, but I was really
> did not want to add a prop strike
> to ruin my day?

You did not overreact at all. Something's amiss, you need to check it
out before flight. You're not going to get out of the plane to check it
with the engine running, are you?

> The problem apparently was that
> some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires
> sidewall and punctured the tub.

You were flying in a bathtub? I hope you didn't have water damage on
the floor. :)

> Also, what would happen if the tire went flat
> during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the runway.
> If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on the yolk.

Yep. Easy over or you'll be scrambled.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[NW_PILOT]

"Kevin Kubiak" > wrote in message
...
> NW_PILOT wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Tire wasn't made by firestone was it?
> >
> > Steven Rhine
> > CP-ASEL-IA
> >
> >
> Don't really know. Funny now that you mention it
> I had a problem with Firestone Tires on my
> car 25 yrs ago. The same thing happened. The
> steel belts shifted and started wearing through the sidewall.
> I got lucky then too, because it was caught during
> a routine oil change before I had a blowout.
>
> Kevin Kubiak - PP-ASEL

That was meant to me a funny as for all the Firestone tire recalls!

[Peter Duniho]

"Kevin Kubiak" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Does this kind of thing happen frequently. Did I over react by shutting
> down the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop strike
> to ruin my day?

Personally, I think it's a great idea to shut down the engine before doing
any service on the nosewheel.

Seriously though, in this situation, obviously if the prop hadn't hit yet,
it wasn't going to.

In any case, I agree that you're probably dealing with a manufacturing
defect. Tires should be able to take LOTS of abuse, and a botched landing
that actually damages a tire would damage plenty else on the airplane as
well.

You did the right thing, you got it fixed, AND you've got an FBO who handles
off-site repair reimbursement properly. What more could you ask? :)

(I'll skip the egg joke, since Jose already got that one... :) ).

Pete

[RK Henry]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:54:18 -0500, Kevin Kubiak >
wrote:

>The general manager said I will be reimbursed for the repair, but was curious
>about the flat. I was too since the tire looked to be relatively new.
>In fact it was only replaced 2 weeks prior. The problem apparently was that
>some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall and
>punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can feel the steel
>wire protruding through the sidewall.

I didn't know anyone made steel cord tires for aircraft, at least not
for aircraft that I'm likely to fly. All the tires I've seen are nylon
bias-ply tires. The only steel is the tire bead.

Could the steel cord be foreign object damage? In that case, lucky you
picked it up in the tire and not in the prop.

RK Henry

[Dan Luke]

"Kevin Kubiak" wrote:

> FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as fast
> as it
> entered.

You would've taken off if it had held air?

[Kevin Kubiak]

> I didn't know anyone made steel cord tires for aircraft, at least not
> for aircraft that I'm likely to fly. All the tires I've seen are nylon
> bias-ply tires. The only steel is the tire bead.
>
> Could the steel cord be foreign object damage? In that case, lucky you
> picked it up in the tire and not in the prop.
>
> RK Henry

Not sure. I don't know that much about aircraft tires. That's why I posted
here. The material was very fine bristly stiff wire. I just assumed it was
steel cord, since it felt like the steel cord from automotive tires. What was
weird is that it was about mid point on the side wall. The A&P that replaced
the tire was surprised as well. The clubs A & P is looking into it. To try and
figure out if was tire defect or if somewhere something got picked up. It was
very odd.

Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:05:03 -0700, "Seth Masia" >
wrote:

>I can't conceive of an operational situation that would cause a steel cord
>to come adrift from inside the molded rubber.

I can. I was an auto mechanic for 9 years. Tires that had steel
reinforced tread could and did expose them if the tires were run at
low pressure for too long. Happened all the time. Don't see why
airplane tires wouldn't become damaged in the same manner if run with
low pressure.

The tire pressure for a Cessna 172S is 35 psi mains and 43 psi front
according to the POH. Last time I flew the rental, which was during
my biennial flight review a few weeks ago, I noticed the front tire
was low. The instructor had a pressure guage with him and admonished
me to keep one with me at all times myself. We found the front tire
was at 8 psi and both mains were around 10.

According to the CFI, land a bit cockeyed with tire pressures that low
and you could easily blow out a tire.

Corky Scott

[Dave Stadt]

"Kevin Kubiak" > wrote in message
...
> > I didn't know anyone made steel cord tires for aircraft, at least not
> > for aircraft that I'm likely to fly. All the tires I've seen are nylon
> > bias-ply tires. The only steel is the tire bead.
> >
> > Could the steel cord be foreign object damage? In that case, lucky you
> > picked it up in the tire and not in the prop.
> >
> > RK Henry
>
> Not sure. I don't know that much about aircraft tires. That's why I
posted
> here. The material was very fine bristly stiff wire. I just assumed it
was
> steel cord, since it felt like the steel cord from automotive tires. What
was
> weird is that it was about mid point on the side wall. The A&P that
replaced
> the tire was surprised as well. The clubs A & P is looking into it. To
try and
> figure out if was tire defect or if somewhere something got picked up. It
was
> very odd.
>
> Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

It didn't say "Farm and Fleet" on the sidewall did it? :-)

[George Patterson]

RK Henry wrote:

> I didn't know anyone made steel cord tires for aircraft, at least not
> for aircraft that I'm likely to fly.

That also puzzled me when I read it. I just checked the Desser Tire site, and
they don't list any steel cord tires.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Skylune]

...still amazed that my car has run flat tires, but planes don't. More
60's technology flying around. Astonishing.

[Michelle P]

Several reasons:
Certification costs.
You need the tires to give and flex on landing. Cars do not need this
since the do not land.
Large airplanes have dial tires per gear. Redundancy.
Michelle

Skylune wrote:

>..still amazed that my car has run flat tires, but planes don't. More
>60's technology flying around. Astonishing.
>
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
...
> I can. I was an auto mechanic for 9 years. Tires that had steel
> reinforced tread could and did expose them if the tires were run at
> low pressure for too long. Happened all the time. Don't see why
> airplane tires wouldn't become damaged in the same manner if run with
> low pressure.

One main reason might be the duration of operation required to cause a
problem. Airplane tires do warm up, but not nearly to the extent that an
automobile tire would. They simply aren't used for the distances and speeds
that an auto tire experiences. The heat that is the cause of failure at low
tire pressures is much less likely to become a factor for an airplane tire
than for auto tires.

> [...]
> According to the CFI, land a bit cockeyed with tire pressures that low
> and you could easily blow out a tire.

I can believe that the tire would separate from the rim, allowing the tire
pressure to be completely relieved. Technically, that would be a "blow out"
IMHO, but it's not the same as a failure of the actual tire material.

Pete

[Skywise]

"Skylune" > wrote in
lkaboutaviation.com:

> Thats strange. My car has run flat tires (making blow-outs impossible).

Run-flats can blow out. The difference between them and regular tires
is that they have a stronger sidewall so that if you have you lose
pressure due to a leak or small puncture, the tire will not go so flat
as to ride on the rim. This allows you to drive a short distance at slow
speeds to get to safety and replace/repair your tire.


> Aren't the same available for planes?

Someone else would have to answer that.

Brian (who knows what it's like to blow a tire at 85 mph)
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? Supernews Sucks!

[Bushleague]

Good Year quality product, like on Nascar which keep failing with a
new 'softer' compound, you've seen pictures.

Bush

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:54:18 -0500, Kevin Kubiak >
wrote:

>Strange thing happened to me earlier this week (monday).
>I flew from home base at KUGN to KDBQ with a friend
>for a quick stop and then we were planning to fly up the Mississippi
>to look for some fall colors.
>
>Had a nice clear day with light winds. So we land at DBQ, I taxi over to the
>FBO for a quick pit stop. Got back in the plane, got ATIS, contacted ground and
>given taxi instruction to 36. So I'm # 2 in line, just finish mag check and
>now I'm # 1. Start to move forward and seemed like the pedals were hare to
>steer. I quickly think I got a flat nosewheel, and shut down the engine, worried
>that I might strike the prop. Anyway, contact ground told them on problem and
>plane behind me says yep it is flat.
>
>FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as fast as it
>entered. SO we now need a tow back to FBO. 2.5 hrs later I have new tire and
>tube and we are off back to KUGN. Luckily I take the old tire & tube back.
>Since the plane is owned by the club I'm a member in.
>
>The general manager said I will be reimbursed for the repair, but was curious
>about the flat. I was too since the tire looked to be relatively new.
>In fact it was only replaced 2 weeks prior. The problem apparently was that
>some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall and
>punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can feel the steel
>wire protruding through the sidewall.
>
>Does this kind of thing happen frequently. Did I over react by shutting down
>the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop strike
>to ruin my day?
>
>Could side load or bad landings, bouncing on the nose cause such a failure?
>My landing just prior to the this occurring was fine, mains first, then slowly
>down on the nose. Just curious. Also, what would happen if the tire went flat
>during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the runway.
>If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on the yolk.
>
>Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

[Capt.Doug]

>"Kevin Kubiak" wrote in message> The problem apparently was that
> some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall and
> punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can feel the
steel
> wire protruding through the sidewall. Does this kind of thing happen
frequently.

It doesn't happen frequently, but it does happen. I learned the hard way
that replacing the valve stem along with the tube is cheap insurance. I also
learned that many flats are the result of the tube being folded back on
itself during installation, causing a pinch or a crease in the tube which
quickly rubs a hole.

> Did I over react by shutting down
> the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop strike
> to ruin my day?

You did the right thing. Taxiing with a flat tire can cause a lot of damage.
No sense in adding unneccessary risk.

> Also, what would happen if the tire went flat
> during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the
runway.
> If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on
the yolk.

Landing with a flat can cause problems because of the severe vibrations. I
landed a C-337 with a flat main tire. It was controllable throughout but the
vibrations were so bad that the brake pads departed the gear. A Cessna 400
series won't taxi at slow speeds with a flat nose tire. The tire just cocks
to the side and that's the end.

D.

[BTIZ]

Actually what is more common with low tire pressure is that on landing the
rubber tire "slips" on the rim during spin up.. putting pressure on the
valve stem and cutting it or wearing a hole near the valve stem.
BT


>> According to the CFI, land a bit cockeyed with tire pressures that low
>> and you could easily blow out a tire.
>
> I can believe that the tire would separate from the rim, allowing the tire
> pressure to be completely relieved. Technically, that would be a "blow
> out" IMHO, but it's not the same as a failure of the actual tire material.
>
> Pete
>

[Dave Stadt]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:MfG3f.5812$MN6.547@fed1read04...
> Actually what is more common with low tire pressure is that on landing the
> rubber tire "slips" on the rim during spin up.. putting pressure on the
> valve stem and cutting it or wearing a hole near the valve stem.
> BT

That has been a problem with tube type tires since the days of the Model T.
It is mostly forgotten nowadays.

[BDS]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> ..still amazed that my car has run flat tires, but planes don't. More
> 60's technology flying around. Astonishing.
>

What's the speed rating on your run-flat car tires? How often do they need
to go from a dead stop instantly to 60 mph or higher? Do you have any idea
what it takes to get a new aircraft product certified in terms of money and
time?

[A Lieberman]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:14:12 -0400, wrote:

> The instructor had a pressure guage with him and admonished
> me to keep one with me at all times myself.

I have a bicycle pump with a gauge on it in the cargo part of my plane. I
fly to some airports that are unattended and while there may be a self
serve fuel pump, air is not an option.

I check the pressure once a week on my plane. Not unusual to lose 2 pounds
or so in an extended period of idle time, and the bicycle pump takes less
then 15 seconds to get the tire back up to speed.

Allen

[Kevin Kubiak]

Dan Luke wrote:

> "Kevin Kubiak" wrote:
>
>
>>FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as fast
>>as it
>>entered.
>
>
> You would've taken off if it had held air?
>
>
I didn't say or imply I would have taken off if it held air. I would have
taxied back to the FBO to have it checked out and saved the extra towing charge
however and the tie up of the far end of the runway. DBQ was pretty busy at the
time.

Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:21:20 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

> wrote in message
...
>> I can. I was an auto mechanic for 9 years. Tires that had steel
>> reinforced tread could and did expose them if the tires were run at
>> low pressure for too long. Happened all the time. Don't see why
>> airplane tires wouldn't become damaged in the same manner if run with
>> low pressure.
>
>One main reason might be the duration of operation required to cause a
>problem. Airplane tires do warm up, but not nearly to the extent that an
>automobile tire would. They simply aren't used for the distances and speeds
>that an auto tire experiences. The heat that is the cause of failure at low
>tire pressures is much less likely to become a factor for an airplane tire
>than for auto tires.

You are coming up with reasonable conjectures as to why steel threads
might not work through the sidewall. The problem is the threads DID
work their way through the sidewall.

Rolling them at low pressure would flex the sidewalls more than they
are designed for.

Corky Scott

[Robet Coffey]

Kevin Kubiak wrote:
> Strange thing happened to me earlier this week (monday).
> I flew from home base at KUGN to KDBQ with a friend
> for a quick stop and then we were planning to fly up the Mississippi
> to look for some fall colors.
>
> Had a nice clear day with light winds. So we land at DBQ, I taxi over
> to the
> FBO for a quick pit stop. Got back in the plane, got ATIS, contacted
> ground and
> given taxi instruction to 36. So I'm # 2 in line, just finish mag check
> and
> now I'm # 1. Start to move forward and seemed like the pedals were hare
> to steer. I quickly think I got a flat nosewheel, and shut down the
> engine, worried
> that I might strike the prop. Anyway, contact ground told them on
> problem and plane behind me says yep it is flat.
>
> FBO sends a truck to fill the tire, but the air rushed out almost as
> fast as it
> entered. SO we now need a tow back to FBO. 2.5 hrs later I have new
> tire and tube and we are off back to KUGN. Luckily I take the old tire
> & tube back. Since the plane is owned by the club I'm a member in.
>
> The general manager said I will be reimbursed for the repair, but was
> curious about the flat. I was too since the tire looked to be
> relatively new.
> In fact it was only replaced 2 weeks prior. The problem apparently was
> that
> some of the steel cord must have popped up through the tires sidewall
> and punctured the tub. If you rub your hand over the inside you can
> feel the steel
> wire protruding through the sidewall.
>
> Does this kind of thing happen frequently. Did I over react by
> shutting down the engine, but I was really did not want to add a prop
> strike
> to ruin my day?
>
> Could side load or bad landings, bouncing on the nose cause such a failure?
> My landing just prior to the this occurring was fine, mains first, then
> slowly
> down on the nose. Just curious. Also, what would happen if the tire
> went flat
> during flight? I guess I would know the minute the nose settled on the
> runway.
> If that happened, all I could do is hold the nose off by pulling back on
> the yolk.
>
> Kevin Kubiak PP-ASEL
I had the misfortune of having 2 (separate) in-flight flats. The first
was the right main. In pre-flight i saw it was low and added air. After
a 45 min. flight as soon as I touched down the plane pulled hard right
with a pile of vibration. Threw down the right aileron and held it for
the rest of the ride & used all the left brake i had to keep it on the
runway. Tire shredded- wheel "phew" was fine. April 15th,2002 I had just
failed my ppl checkride on lost procedures 2 hours prior. Baaaad day.

The second time was the nosewheel. In pre-flight i told my the co-owner
"I'm going to get us a new tire for that nose, it's starting to look
barefoot". We took off and in the pattern heard a strange noise
"vibration" & decided to land. As soon as the nose touched violent
vibration- pulled all the way back on the yoke - no brakes & rode it
out.tire shredded, again no prop strike or wheel damage. those were in a
warrior. we now have a Cherokee six with new rubber all the way around -
imagine why?
btw -i'm pretty good at changing tires.

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
...
> You are coming up with reasonable conjectures as to why steel threads
> might not work through the sidewall. The problem is the threads DID
> work their way through the sidewall.

My point is simply that absent a manufacturing defect, the usual mode of
failure due to low tire pressure doesn't apply.

> Rolling them at low pressure would flex the sidewalls more than they
> are designed for.

But assuming no manufacturing defect, would not result in tire failure.

Pete