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Rich S.
July 11th 03, 01:48 AM
"pac plyer" > wrote
> The same could be done for part 91 flight. We could all write Phil
> Boyer at AOPA and Paul Jr. at EAA and suggest arming ourselves at
> little airports across America. This would keep non-flying TSA drones
> out of our hair while at the same time providing real protection for
> the GA fleet.

Buddy of mine had to add a bit of weight to the rear of his Emeraude. He
dropped in an O-290 and didn't move the battery back. I suggested he build
in a tail compartment for a Savage O/U .22 mag/20 ga.

No sense carrying a chuck of metal that won't shoot.

Rich "You never know when you're going to go down in the wilds of Missouri"
S.

Del Rawlins
July 11th 03, 02:13 AM
On 10 Jul 2003 03:36 PM, pac plyer posted the following:

> The same could be done for part 91 flight. We could all write Phil
> Boyer at AOPA and Paul Jr. at EAA and suggest arming ourselves at
> little airports across America. This would keep non-flying TSA drones
> out of our hair while at the same time providing real protection for
> the GA fleet.

Here in Alaska the pilot in command is required to carry a firearm (
except for airlines and flights passing through Canada) for survival
purposes. Buddy of mine who is a bush pilot had a client pressuring him
to make a flight in unsafe conditions. The guy started to get nasty and
in his face until he realized my friend was wearing his .45, at which
point his politeness returned to him. Now the gun was not mentioned nor
was a move made for it, but without a doubt had it not been there the
client would have continued, possibly getting physical, and a less
strong willed pilot than my friend might have given in and made the
flight.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
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Del Rawlins
July 11th 03, 04:03 AM
On 10 Jul 2003 06:06 PM, Wooduuuward posted the following:

> I know, I know, there's lots of good reasons to disarm regular
> folks.

1. To reduce the number of occupational injuries suffered by criminals.
2. Elimination of the last resort defense against tyrannical
governments.
3. To provide taxpayer funded jobs associated with the disarmament
beaurocracy.
4. Job security for police due to increased crime.
5. A means for PETA and its ilk to prevent most people from hunting.
6. Virtually guarantees that if a madman *does* get ahold of a gun,
that
nobody nearby will be capable of stopping him.

I think that about covers it.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Peter Gottlieb
July 11th 03, 04:44 AM
"pac plyer" > wrote in message
om...
>
> What do you guys think?


I don't consider carrying or owning a gun mostly because the places and
circumstances I am in are such that the liklihood of an accident is much
more probable than needing it for defense.

I was strongly for arming commercial pilots right from the beginning and
would consider arming myself when flying if there was some sort of federal
licensing system for pilots such that I didn't have to think about or worry
about different rules in different states.

Perhaps if pilots were considered some form of air marshal it might work
with the public.

Richard Lamb
July 11th 03, 05:41 AM
Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 10 Jul 2003 06:06 PM, Wooduuuward posted the following:
>
> > I know, I know, there's lots of good reasons to disarm regular
> > folks.
>
> 1. To reduce the number of occupational injuries suffered by criminals.
> 2. Elimination of the last resort defense against tyrannical
> governments.
> 3. To provide taxpayer funded jobs associated with the disarmament
> beaurocracy.
> 4. Job security for police due to increased crime.
> 5. A means for PETA and its ilk to prevent most people from hunting.
> 6. Virtually guarantees that if a madman *does* get ahold of a gun,
> that
> nobody nearby will be capable of stopping him.
>
> I think that about covers it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins-
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

pretty damn well, Del

Mike Borgelt
July 11th 03, 08:09 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:41:39 GMT, Richard Lamb >
wrote:

>
>
>Del Rawlins wrote:
>>
>> On 10 Jul 2003 06:06 PM, Wooduuuward posted the following:
>>
>> > I know, I know, there's lots of good reasons to disarm regular
>> > folks.
>>
>> 1. To reduce the number of occupational injuries suffered by criminals.
>> 2. Elimination of the last resort defense against tyrannical
>> governments.
>> 3. To provide taxpayer funded jobs associated with the disarmament
>> beaurocracy.
>> 4. Job security for police due to increased crime.
>> 5. A means for PETA and its ilk to prevent most people from hunting.
>> 6. Virtually guarantees that if a madman *does* get ahold of a gun,
>> that
>> nobody nearby will be capable of stopping him.
>>
>> I think that about covers it.
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Del Rawlins-
>> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
>> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
>> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
>
>pretty damn well, Del

7. Politicians responsible get to grandstand and boast about how much
safer they have made everyone.

Mike Borgelt

jc
July 11th 03, 09:27 AM
Well said, Del!
Cheers,
jc


"Del Rawlins" > wrote in message
...
> On 10 Jul 2003 06:06 PM, Wooduuuward posted the following:
>
> > I know, I know, there's lots of good reasons to disarm regular
> > folks.
>
> 1. To reduce the number of occupational injuries suffered by criminals.
> 2. Elimination of the last resort defense against tyrannical
> governments.
> 3. To provide taxpayer funded jobs associated with the disarmament
> beaurocracy.
> 4. Job security for police due to increased crime.
> 5. A means for PETA and its ilk to prevent most people from hunting.
> 6. Virtually guarantees that if a madman *does* get ahold of a gun,
> that
> nobody nearby will be capable of stopping him.
>
> I think that about covers it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins-
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

BD5ER
July 11th 03, 05:39 PM
>These are the same requirements
>for a concealed firearm permit that many right-to-carry states already have.
>The difference is that the permit will be honored in all 50 states if you
>have the aviation endorsement.

This has always kind of bothered me. I'm not a legal scholar by any definition
but it seems to me that just like our drivers and marriage licenses, auto
registrations, birth certificates, etc., our concealed carry permits should be
honored in other states per Article IV section 1. (full faith and credit)

Big John
July 11th 03, 07:00 PM
A number of years ago Texas passed a carry law. I then took the course
and passed the security check and obtained a permit.

After this law was passed the Liberal left passed some laws on where
you could carry and when I went out carrying I normally left the
weapon in my car because I could not go in so many places due to the
restrictions.

As a note, after passage of the carry law, crime went DOWN in Texas
(and Houston for sure).

The latest legislation session passed a law that legal permit owners
could carry in government buildings (which had been off limits prior.

Slow but sure and we will be able to protect ourselves from predators
in society (or eliminate them)

Texas also made pacts with adjacent States to have ours and their
carry permits recognized in these States and Texas.

It's a start. We now need to keep pushing as Police can not stop
crime. Ask them. All they can do is come after the fact and collect
evidence for the DA.

Enough of my rant.

Big John
Legal to carry
(And I shoot Expert)


On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:49:27 -0500, "Rick Pellicciotti"
> wrote:

>The criminals shoot the defenseless people they rob because they don't want
>to be identified and testified against. Also, in gangs, you get extra
>credit for shooting whoever you robbed. When I renewed my concealed carry
>permit a few months ago, I sat in a class with a guy that was car-jacked and
>shot by a 14 year old boy. This guy spent a month in the hospital and a
>year doing rehab. Up until that happened, this person had never considered
>owning a gun.
>
>The cold, hard facts are that since concealed carry has come into play in my
>state, violent crime, robberies and car jackings are down 50 to 70%.
>
>Rick Pellicciotti
>
>"Wooduuuward" > wrote in message
...
>> This mornings inside page headline in the newspaper reads:
>> "Bandits kill store owner"
>> The subheading reads:
>> "Police acknowledge it was a vicious crime"
>>
>> The story goes on to tell how the store owner was shot dead
>> for the cash in the register. It also goes on to state the store
>> was one that sold pillows, sheets, towels and blankets.
>> So, broad daylight, and not even a convenience store, ( the
>> normal profile ).
>>
>> A gas bar attendant survived being shot in the stomach and the
>> arm earlier in the month.
>>
>> If the criminals know regular people don't have guns, why shoot them?
>>
>>
>> Mike Borgelt wrote:
>> >
>> > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:41:39 GMT, Richard Lamb >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Del Rawlins wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> On 10 Jul 2003 06:06 PM, Wooduuuward posted the following:
>> > >>
>> > >> > I know, I know, there's lots of good reasons to disarm regular
>> > >> > folks.
>> > >>
>> > >> 1. To reduce the number of occupational injuries suffered by
>criminals.
>> > >> 2. Elimination of the last resort defense against tyrannical
>> > >> governments.
>> > >> 3. To provide taxpayer funded jobs associated with the disarmament
>> > >> beaurocracy.
>> > >> 4. Job security for police due to increased crime.
>> > >> 5. A means for PETA and its ilk to prevent most people from hunting.
>> > >> 6. Virtually guarantees that if a madman *does* get ahold of a gun,
>> > >> that
>> > >> nobody nearby will be capable of stopping him.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think that about covers it.
>> > >>
>> > >> ----------------------------------------------------
>> > >> Del Rawlins-
>> > >> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
>> > >> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
>> > >> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
>> > >
>> > >pretty damn well, Del
>> >
>> > 7. Politicians responsible get to grandstand and boast about how much
>> > safer they have made everyone.
>> >
>> > Mike Borgelt
>

Ron Natalie
July 11th 03, 07:41 PM
"Big John" > wrote in message ...
> Big John
> Legal to carry
> (And I shoot Expert)

Which expert are you going to shoot? Do us a favor and take out Tarver.

MJC
July 11th 03, 08:45 PM
I'm sorry, there are NO good reasons to disarm "regular" folks.

MJC

"Wooduuuward" > wrote in message
...
>
> This reminds me of the situation in Australia, where the police
> figure now that the crooks know for sure there are no firearms
> in people's homes, burglaries have risen dramatically in broad
> daylight with people still in their homes. The crooks don't care
> if anyone is home anymore.
> You don't have to use a gun, the very thought that it might be
> there can be a deterrent to criminals.
> I know, I know, there's lots of good reasons to disarm regular
> folks. But the fact remains, forcible house break-ins have risen
> since the 'peasants' have been disarmed.
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> > snip . . . The guy started to get nasty and
> > in his face until he realized my friend was wearing his .45, at which
> > point his politeness returned to him. Now the gun was not mentioned nor
> > was a move made for it, but without a doubt had it not been there the
> > client would have continued, possibly getting physical, /snip.

Dave S
July 11th 03, 11:17 PM
I already pack when I fly XC. Im credentialed to carry a concealed
handgun in my state, and most of the neighboring states offer
reciprocity to concealed handgun licenseholders.

I dont take the aircraft to airline terminal ramps, so Im not bringing a
weapon into the secured area. This issue is specifically unaddressed by
part 91, which is what my operations are under, so its permitted behavior.

I've acknowledged this fact on many occasions in previous threads on
this issue. And, if I hadnt acknowledged this, the vast majority of
persons I interact with would be none the wiser: hence thats why its
called "concealed carry"

Dave, PPSEL

pac plyer wrote:

> "Peter Duniho", who apparently can't navigate around a TFR wrote:
> : (then hit view complete
> thread)
>
> Captain wubba correctly pointed out:
>
>>screaming 'That's not
>>fair! That's not fair! I want to be able to fly over the stadiums
>>again!' doesn't help our cause. It makes us look like we are more
>>concerned with our own toys than withe the security of the US
>>
>
> Pac sez:
>
> Exactly, thank you Cap Wubba for saying this so I didn't have to.
> Reading Peter's irrational moaning was giving me a migraine. All the
> whining in the world about how "unfair" TFR's are will change nothing.
> And No one is going to feel sorry for "you rich guys" and your
> recreational flying woes.
>
> So what will stop this GA witch hunt? I'd like like to call attention
> to what the Air Line Pilot's Association is doing: arming themselves
> to the teeth in federally approved programs. Instead of having
> security officers everywhere, including the cockpit, like Aeroflot
> used to do, they are assuming the role of deputized custodian of
> FAR121 travel.
>
> The same could be done for part 91 flight. We could all write Phil
> Boyer at AOPA and Paul Jr. at EAA and suggest arming ourselves at
> little airports across America. This would keep non-flying TSA drones
> out of our hair while at the same time providing real protection for
> the GA fleet.
>
> I know, I know: Liberals like xxxxx, will start whining again about
> how unfair it is that he should have to carry a gun... But no matter.
> Either we start protecting these ramps ourselves, or after a few more
> rag-head GA incidents, here comes the TSA at your airport to do it for
> you:
>
> "I'm sorry sir, this is a secure area... you'll have to leave that screw
> driver with me, until you return from your aircraft."
>
> Now just let me slip into my anti-gunner flak jacket here... O.K..
>
> What do you guys think?
>
>
> Pac "guns" plyer
>

Dave S
July 11th 03, 11:22 PM
Wow.. I can see all the people coming out of the woodwork to get their
pilots license now.. GREAT MARKETING IDEA!! Especially in cities and
states that are antigun.
Dave

Capt. Doug wrote:

(snip)
> Here's how we handle it. Add a regulation to Part 61 that requires private
> pilot candidates to obtain a permit to carry a firearm. This involves a
> criminal background check and fingerprinting along with a gun safety course
> (which should please the public naysayers). These are the same requirements
> for a concealed firearm permit that many right-to-carry states already have.
> The difference is that the permit will be honored in all 50 states if you
> have the aviation endorsement.
>
> D.
>
>
>

Peter Gottlieb
July 11th 03, 11:25 PM
"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
>
> Peter, the pilots need to go through exactly the same firearms
> training as air marshals to be allowed to carry. The fact that the
> public doesn't know that is a failure of PR, not the rules.
>


I was thinking of private pilots. People do know about the commercial
pilots and their training.

Regarding the state laws: as a private individual I do not have the support
structure of an airline. Therefore, I must carry any weapon to and from the
plane in any state I visit. Being as I already have too much to carry, I do
not want to have to carry some special case or anything of the sort, I would
just want to be able to carry the weapon on my belt like my cell phone
(yikes, between the phone, av radio, ham radio, multi-tool, etc. my belt is
filling up. Soon I will need LBE to go anywhere). At present, this is a
problem.

Neal
July 12th 03, 04:04 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:25:53 GMT, "Peter Gottlieb" >
wrote:

>plane in any state I visit. Being as I already have too much to carry, I do
>not want to have to carry some special case or anything of the sort, I would
>just want to be able to carry the weapon on my belt like my cell phone
>(yikes, between the phone, av radio, ham radio, multi-tool, etc. my belt is
>filling up. Soon I will need LBE to go anywhere). At present, this is a
>problem.
>

Take a look at the Kel-Tec P-32, very lightweight and compact,
adequate deterrant power when loaded with Silvertips.

http://www.kel-tec.com/prod02.htm

Big John
July 12th 03, 06:50 PM
Neal

I have one (Kel-Tec P-32). In a crotch holster it is well hidden and
comfortable. Recommend, Very light with lots of plastic. I asked mfgr
how well they held up and they said they had never worn one out on the
range yet.

Big John
Armed and ready when needed.


On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:04:50 -0500, Neal >
wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:25:53 GMT, "Peter Gottlieb" >
>wrote:
>
>>plane in any state I visit. Being as I already have too much to carry, I do
>>not want to have to carry some special case or anything of the sort, I would
>>just want to be able to carry the weapon on my belt like my cell phone
>>(yikes, between the phone, av radio, ham radio, multi-tool, etc. my belt is
>>filling up. Soon I will need LBE to go anywhere). At present, this is a
>>problem.
>>
>
>Take a look at the Kel-Tec P-32, very lightweight and compact,
>adequate deterrant power when loaded with Silvertips.
>
>http://www.kel-tec.com/prod02.htm
>

Capt. Doug
July 13th 03, 03:53 AM
>Peter Gottlieb wrote in message I would
> just want to be able to carry the weapon on my belt like my cell phone
> (yikes, between the phone, av radio, ham radio, multi-tool, etc. my belt
is
> filling up. Soon I will need LBE to go anywhere). At present, this is a
> problem.

It would be a big problem if you reached to your belt for a weapon and tried
to shoot somebody with your cellphone.

D. :-)

Peter Gottlieb
July 13th 03, 05:45 PM
"Capt. Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >Peter Gottlieb wrote in message I would
> > just want to be able to carry the weapon on my belt like my cell phone
> > (yikes, between the phone, av radio, ham radio, multi-tool, etc. my belt
> is
> > filling up. Soon I will need LBE to go anywhere). At present, this is
a
> > problem.
>
> It would be a big problem if you reached to your belt for a weapon and
tried
> to shoot somebody with your cellphone.
>


Or, reached for my cellphone and...

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