losing your wings.....

[~^ beancounter ~^]

years and years to earn...seconds to lose...

---------------------------------------
SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
County Regional Airport.

On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a steep
climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.

ADVERTISEMENT

Blake Medeiros, a student at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo who fuels planes
at the airport, was in his employer's office when he heard the jet. He
ran outside and clambered atop a 15,000-gallon fuel tank to watch. He
had seen such displays of aerial might at air shows. But for such a
sight to appear out of nowhere during his workday was awe-inspiring.

Ernie Sebby was in his house less than a mile from the airport. He ran
to the front porch and caught a glimpse of the aircraft. It appeared to
be painted in gray primer. He could make out no identifying numbers.

A former volunteer at airport community functions and an erstwhile
recreational pilot, the 77-year-old retired corrections officer guessed
that the plane was a surplus military jet fighter flown "by some guy
that's got more money than brains."

Sebby immediately recalled an incident in Sacramento in September 1972,
when an inexperienced civilian pilot crashed a decommissioned Korean
War-era F-86 Sabre jet into an ice cream parlor, killing 12 children
and 10 adults.

Martin Pehl was in the washroom of the airport's administrative offices
near the terminal. For a moment, Pehl, the airport's assistant manager,
thought that he was feeling an earthquake.

Then he and nearly everyone else bailed out of the building to see what
was happening. He saw the jet fighter's afterburner afire as the
aircraft climbed into the sky.

The Federal Aviation Administration designation for the airspace above
the airport is Class D, meaning that it has a speed limit of 230 mph
below 2,500 feet. "Oh boy, we're in trouble," Pehl thought. "We've got
a real PR issue.... "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Like the turbulent wake of a jet, the incident's impact spread outward,
with severe consequences for Webb's aviation career.

George "Bud" Day, a Vietnam-era combat fighter pilot and Medal of Honor
winner, recalled a time when military aviators were entitled to
occasional displays of thrilling bravado.

"Back in the old days, I used to fly by my house on the way back from
an exercise and give a little toot on the afterburner just so my wife
would know I was on the way home," he said.

Webb's case, however, demonstrates how far fighter pilot culture has
evolved.

An important factor is the greater cost and sophistication of today's
jet fighters. Although the Super Hornet's cost is often cited in the
media as about $60 million apiece, Department of Defense figures
collected by the authoritative defense policy group globalsecurity.org
place it at about $95 million, when development costs are included and
the price is calculated in current dollars.

"The weapons systems today are so complex from an engineering and
science point of view that the old idea of who a fighter pilot is has
changed," said John Sherwood, a historian for the Navy.

"Right now the ones who make it are perfect physical specimens, and
they tend to be engineers, people with a strong math and science
background. In the Vietnam War you would still get a lot of people
who'd played football and were jocks and brave guys who were willing to
risk their lives to fly very unsafe aircraft off of very unsafe ships.
But that's changing."

Along with the changes in the aircraft, several highly publicized
accidents and the 1991 Tailhook scandal, in which numerous Navy fliers
were disciplined for wild drunkenness and overt sexual harassment, have
helped shift the culture, as has the emergence of female fighter
pilots, Sherwood said.

Darrel Whitcomb, an aviation historian and retired Air Force colonel
who flew jet fighters for two decades, including three tours of combat
duty in Vietnam, said current standards reflect "a new level of
maturity. The level of professionalism has gotten progressively
higher."

In today's environment, Sherwood said, there is little tolerance "for
misbehavior in any way, whether it's flying an aircraft outside the
flight plan or having a few beers in the officers' club."

The Navy tradition, he said, is to give a ship's captain or aircraft
pilot a great deal of responsibility and autonomy, but to countenance
not even the smallest mistake. The Navy "has a reputation for eating
its children.... If you mess up, there are no second chances."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


San Luis Obispo County Regional Airport once practically had been
Richard Webb's second home. In 1992, as a sophomore at Cal Poly, he got
a job with an aviation service company at the airport. He drove fuel
trucks, pumped gas, swept hangars, washed planes and became enthralled
with flying. Every dollar he earned, after he paid rent and tuition,
went to flight lessons.

"While driving the fuel truck around the airport, the highlight of my
day would be when a military fighter jet seemingly appeared out of
nowhere and made a high-speed low pass over the runway," he wrote in a
widely distributed e-mail months after the incident.

"Talk about motivation for a growing pilot, I'd have a grin on my face
for hours after that. Because they seemed to just appear out of nowhere
with such force and thunder, these flybys had lasting impressions on
me."

After graduation from college, Webb became a U.S. Navy aviation
officer. He flew F-14 Tomcat jet fighters in combat over Afghanistan
and Iraq, taking off from the deck of the U.S. aircraft carrier
Enterprise.

In January, he was based temporarily at Lemoore Naval Air Station in
the San Joaquin Valley, where he was learning to fly the Super Hornet,
the Navy's successor to the Tomcat. Sometimes he drove to the San Luis
Obispo airport to visit and fly with old friends.

One of those friends was Mike Dacey, his former employer at the airport
and the owner of a decommissioned Czech jet fighter-trainer. Dacey was
astonished by the skill that Webb's multimillion-dollar military
training had given him. Of his career as a Navy aviator, Webb told him:
"Mike, I love this so much I can't believe they're paying me to do it.
I'd do it for free."

In Medeiros, whom he had met on one of his visits, Webb saw himself at
an earlier age. He later wrote about how the younger man was "putting
himself through school, driving fuel trucks, learning to fly, wants to
fly military jets ... talk about a spitting image of myself 13 years
ago," Webb wrote in the e-mail. "He'd seem to hang on every word I said
and I enjoyed telling him stories and giving him pointers for how to
get accepted to flight school."

On Jan. 21, Webb checked out an F-18 Super Hornet at the Lemoore base
for a training flight, to add to the 14.8 hours he had logged in the
aircraft's cockpit. His superiors assumed that he would fly to a
designated military training area above Sequoia and Death Valley
national parks, 100 miles to the east.

Webb had other ideas.

"When I made a quick decision to fly down to my old airport and do a
flyby, you can imagine what I was thinking.... " Webb wrote. "I could
now be the guy who seemed to explode out of nowhere doing a high-speed
afterburner pass, leaving a lasting impression on a young kid. Talk
about the circle being completed...."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Minutes after Webb's flight, telephone console lights in the airport
administrative offices blazed. "Everybody heard it - the whole city
heard it," said airport manager Klaasje Nairne. "The phone rang off the
hook ... it rocked our world."

About half an hour after the plane departed, Sebby e-mailed Nairne,
asking her to find out the plane's identity. He expressed concern that
"the tremendous noise generated will set airport and community
relations back years."

After airport officials got in touch, the Navy convened an evaluation
board to consider Webb's conduct. Webb admitted performing the flyby
and knowing that it was against the rules. The board also reviewed two
other incidents in Webb's past which, in the Navy's view, involved
questionable judgment by the aviator.

Upon learning of the threat to Webb's career, San Luis Obispo airport
officials expressed concern about the reaction they had sparked. On
Feb. 15, Nairne wrote Webb's superiors that "it was never our intent to
be a party to the end of this gentleman's naval aviation career." If
that were the result, she wrote, "it would be most regrettable."

Although a superior officer acknowledged that Webb was "an energetic
junior officer and talented aviator," the commander of the Naval Air
Force Atlantic Fleet, Webb's home command, concluded that his flyby
"merits termination of flying status."

Webb's wings were pulled. He was exiled to a desk job in Qatar in the
Middle East, and left to ponder the four remaining years of his service
commitment as a groundling.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sebby's e-mail wasn't the only complaint the airport received, but Webb
fixed on Sebby as the instigator of his problems.

On June 3, he sent an e-mail to Sebby, carbon-copying more than 30
friends and others in the aviation community. Webb told Sebby that his
grounding was "a direct result of your indignant e-mail," which he
characterized as "scathing."

In regard to his unauthorized flyby, Webb wrote, "No respected fighter
pilot worth his salt can look me in the eye and tell me they've never
done the exact same thing."

Webb concluded that he was "not apologetic for what I did, and if given
the chance, I'd do the same thing again.... It's just incredibly hard
to admit fault, and accept such disproportionate punishment, to an
action that probably helped recruit many young kids in town that
day.... I feel ashamed to have my close friends die to protect your
freedom to complain about how we do our job."

Webb's punishment has grieved his friends at San Luis Obispo airport.

Medeiros, who is 22 and plans to enter Marine Corps flight training
next year, considered Webb a role model.

"To meet somebody who went to the same school as me and became a
fighter pilot, it was very inspiring," he said. "I think he's a great
guy."

Dacey, for whom Webb worked as a student, said it was difficult "to see
him get hammered. Richard grew up here and he came back to show off a
little bit. The kid's dream was to be a naval pilot, and the vast
majority of people at the airport were proud of him."

After losing his wings, Webb appeared to be "in a state of shock,"
Dacey said. "If you wanted to see a kid who looked like he aged 20
years overnight - literally. He looked like he got run over by a
train."

Dacey speculated that Webb didn't realize how much the San Luis Obispo
area had changed in the near-decade since he had left for the Navy -
the expanded population of the city, the amount of residential
construction within earshot of the airport. "He'd been gone," said
Dacey, whose principal business is as a building contractor. "He'd been
in Iraq. He'd been in Afghanistan."

Sebby is not as sympathetic. Webb's missive brought down on him an
avalanche of angry e-mails, and some anonymous, harassing phone calls.
Sebby contacted Navy officials to complain of what he came to see as
Webb's orchestration of a vilification campaign against him.

"I wasn't trying to prosecute anyone or get him fired or grounded,"
Sebby said in an interview. "I had no idea it was even a military
aircraft. This thing he orchestrated against me ... I want the Navy to
know I'm not going to let this drop because I'm offended, deeply
offended, by this."

In a recent letter to U.S. Rep. Bill Thomas (R-Bakersfield) and both of
California's U.S. senators, Sebby demanded an apology from Webb and
that it be disseminated to all recipients of Webb's original e-mail. He
also called on the Navy to further punish Webb for "his harassment
behavior against me."

Reached by e-mail in Qatar, Webb declined to be interviewed for this
article.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Several military aviation experts who reviewed the evaluation board's
report dispute Webb's assertion that flybys such as his are common
today.

"I was very much floored when I read this report," said one former F-18
instructor who agreed to be interviewed but was under orders from a
commander to not be quoted by name. "This was so far out of the realm
of acceptability it's ludicrous.... What he did was practically unheard
of, extremely unusual ... 500 knots at 96 feet is way beyond his
ability.... That's extreme poor judgment having only 14.8 hours" of
flight time in an F-18. "This kid was an accident waiting to happen. It
was a blessing they got to him before he killed somebody and that was
something that was going to happen."

Webb's case illustrates the balance a modern fighter pilot must strike
between aggressiveness and daring on the one hand, and tight adherence
to discipline and procedure on the other.

"You want your young men and women to fly aggressively, fly tough, fly
mean, so when you need them to do tough things, they can go into battle
and win," Whitcomb said. "But that aggression has got to be properly
tempered, so when it's not called for, it doesn't get them in trouble.

"Nowadays, you can't accept needless loss. This F-18, this is the
top-of-the-line, multi-multimillion-dollar aircraft extremely capable
of doing some really amazing things, and we want the young people we
bring in to be able to do those extra things, but always under control
and carefully directed because it's very easy to lose control of a jet
like that."

The case also points up another dilemma: How tolerant should a civil
society be toward a warrior whose behaviors have been influenced by the
experience of fighting on its behalf?

"The kids we want to fight our battles for us are probably not the best
in peacetime," said Dacey, "not the best flying over your local
airport."

The problem, Sherwood said, is hardly new.

"If you take the king's shilling and go to war, you put yourself in
harm's way and you've fulfilled the ultimate contract with the
military. He did that and he may have felt a certain level of
entitlement. Maybe we're being too strict in our treatment of officers.
You can't ask a bunch of altar boys to fight a war."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mike Weeks]

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
> years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
>
> ---------------------------------------
> SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
> Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
> Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
> County Regional Airport.

<snip>

> On Jan. 21, Webb checked out an F-18 Super Hornet at the Lemoore base
> for a training flight, to add to the 14.8 hours he had logged in the
> aircraft's cockpit. His superiors assumed that he would fly to a
> designated military training area above Sequoia and Death Valley
> national parks, 100 miles to the east.

<snip>

Here's the part that I am wondering about; "his superiors assumed" ???
Perhaps it's just the terms the LA Times writer wanted to use (or how
I'm reading it), but as written it sure reads like it's a case of it
wasn't actually known where the pilot was going, or what he was going
to do with the "checked out" bird. It's like; "Here are the keys, have
it back by 5." <g>

>From those with such experiences while in the RAG; wouldn't there have
been at least a flight plan for example? Might that be what was meant
by "assumed"? Any thoughts on that para from the article?

MW

[~^ beancounter ~^]

yea, good observation...one would think a pilot must at least file
a flight plan...to check out a expensive "piece of machinery" for
sone seat time (only, like 14 hrs..??)...

it was in today's la times....

[[email protected]]

On 19 Oct 2005 14:29:12 -0700, "Mike Weeks" > wrote:

>Here's the part that I am wondering about; "his superiors assumed" ???
>Perhaps it's just the terms the LA Times writer wanted to use (or how
>I'm reading it), but as written it sure reads like it's a case of it
>wasn't actually known where the pilot was going, or what he was going
>to do with the "checked out" bird. It's like; "Here are the keys, have
>it back by 5." <g>

I have to presume it's the Times trying to be "hip" and "cool." Even
in the Reserves one does not get an aircraft and just "check it out."
There is a flight schedule that in in support of a training
curriculum.

>>From those with such experiences while in the RAG; wouldn't there have
>been at least a flight plan for example? Might that be what was meant
>by "assumed"? Any thoughts on that para from the article?

Unless things have changed a lot he was probably assigned a curriculum
flight with a certain number of manuevers that he would have had to
complete to get his "X" in the block.

Not being a "single seat guy" I wondered about him being without an IP
chase. Are data links good enough now that IPs don't have to go out
with the FNKs while they accomplish the curriculum?

Bill Kambic

[~^ beancounter ~^]

might be Bill...the times does have a bit
of a reptuation........


"I have to presume it's the Times
trying to be "hip" and "cool."

[Yofuri]

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
> years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
>
> ---------------------------------------
> SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
> Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
> Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
> County Regional Airport.
<snip>

There's nothing new about discipline. He deserved, and received, the
same treatment as two F-4J pilots who buzzed their former tormentors at
Warner Springs in 1969.

That pass was low enough for jet-wash to collapse a guard tower and
cause an instructor's near-fatal thoracic splinter penetration.

Clunk, clunk on the long green felt.

Rick

[WaltBJ]

That F18 pilot knew exactly what he was doing. My guess is that he was
fed up with the Navy and decided to hang it up. Note - he was on an
authorized sortie or else there'd been a lot more severe action taken.
Walt BJ

[Mike Weeks]

WaltBJ wrote:
> That F18 pilot knew exactly what he was doing. My guess is that he was
> fed up with the Navy and decided to hang it up.

But he didn't turn in his wings and resign his commission. He's now
located at a place which if only Adak was still open ...

>From the story, it's a much different picture as to his reaction to the
world of hurt he caused himself.

> Note - he was on an
> authorized sortie or else there'd been a lot more severe action taken.
> Walt BJ

Well true, it's not being stated he snuck off in a F/A-18. He didn't
have an unauthorized sortie. It's apparently where he decided to do a
"touch-n-go" after a serious case of flat-hatting[?] <g>

[John Carrier]

"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
>
> ---------------------------------------
> SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
> Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
> Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
> County Regional Airport.
>
> On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
> miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
> back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a steep
> climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.

SNIP

You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?

R / John

[Dave Kearton]

John Carrier wrote:
> "~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
>>
>> ---------------------------------------
>> SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
>> Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
>> Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis
>> Obispo County Regional Airport.
>>
>> On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
>> miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
>> back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a
>> steep climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>
> SNIP
>
> You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?
>
> R / John


....plus state tax where applicable



--

Cheers

Dave Kearton

[leadfoot]

We had an air show at Williams AFB with the Thunderbirds as the main event,
circa late 70's or so. Apparently back then they didn't want any acrobatic
flying by any other military aircraft at any airshow they were in. After
they arrive on Friday afternoon buzzing the control tower so close I could
see each finger of crewchief waving to us comm guys on the catwalk an ANG
F-106 arrived a couple of hours later. He asked the control tower local
control if the base wanted a little show. To which the local control (who
had a reputation as ****up) replied "do whatever you want to do" to which
the F-106 driver promptly did a high speed 360 at about 500 AGL over the
base. Certainly way over the 250KT speed limit. Said pilot (young LT as I
recall) was promptly met at his aircraft by our Wing King and immediately
grounded. Not sure what eventually happened to him although his unit had to
send a two seat F-106 to pick him and his F-106 up. As for the air traffic
controller he was immediately and permanently decertified and since he had
just re-enlisted with a huge re-enlistment bonus he was forced to pay that
back in addition to completing whatever term of service he had left in some
simple AFSC where he could do no harm.

Certainly think the FA-18 driver was treated properly

[Mike Weeks]

John Carrier wrote:
> "~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
> > Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
> > Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
> > County Regional Airport.
> >
> > On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
> > miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
> > back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a steep
> > climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>
> SNIP
>
> You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?

I just wonder if something like that came via someone w/ access to the
info which I would assume came from the pilot in the aftermath of his
stunt? As how else could it be that specific -- unless we just chalk
it up to the LA Times staff writer's creative license?

[Thomas Schoene]

John Carrier wrote:
>> On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
>> miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
>> back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a
>> steep climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>
> SNIP
>
> You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?

I'd bet it's a radar altimeter value from the aircraft's flight data
recorder (yes, newer military aircraft do have FDRs). Probably written up
in the incident report.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

[Thomas Schoene]

WaltBJ wrote:
> That F18 pilot knew exactly what he was doing. My guess is that he was
> fed up with the Navy and decided to hang it up. Note - he was on an
> authorized sortie or else there'd been a lot more severe action taken.
> Walt BJ

He had four years left to run on his committment; did he think they would
let him skate on that?

Besides, from the rest of the article -- the part where he wrote a nasty
email to one of the people who reported the flyby -- he sounds like he
really loved flying and was pretty angry about getting busted. But that
same incident demonstrates his continuing poor judgementand lack of
maturity. He broke the rules and knew it; blaming others for turning him in
was just plain childish. Sounds like he thought it would have been OK to
violate flight safety rules if no one had caught him at it.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

[Thomas Schoene]

Mike Weeks wrote:

> From those with such experiences while in the RAG; wouldn't there
> have
> been at least a flight plan for example? Might that be what was meant
> by "assumed"? Any thoughts on that para from the article?

I took this to mean that his superiors assumed that he would follow the
flight plan he'd filed and execute the training sortie scheduled for him,
which would have taken place in the designated training range.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

[John Carrier]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> John Carrier wrote:
>>> On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
>>> miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
>>> back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a
>>> steep climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>> You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?
>
> I'd bet it's a radar altimeter value from the aircraft's flight data
> recorder (yes, newer military aircraft do have FDRs). Probably written up
> in the incident report.

Never seen a radalt that read to single digits. T-45 airborne data recorder
(probably similar to F-18) get radalt in tens of feet, pressure alt in 20's.

R / John

[Bob McKellar]

What if there had been some poor student in a 150 shooting touch and goes.
Even Mr. super aviator might have missed seeing him in his excitement. That
could have meant the loss of a lot more than a set of wings.


Come to think of it, I lost my grandfather's wings, but I guess that's not
the same thing.

Bob McKellar

[Jim Carriere]

With the caveat that this is through the prism of the mainstream
media, I'll work on the basis that the details are accurate.

A flyby at your old stomping ground is one thing, but high speed pass
followed by an afterburner climb (shudder!)? There's a time and
place for that kind of flying, but this wasn't it. Methinks a more
garden variety touch and go would have resulted in getting smacked
hard but keeping his wings.

As an aside, I believe airports should be good neighbors, but I
couldn't help but smile at the thought of the people who built their
houses next to that evil airport. :)

[Jim Carriere]

John Carrier wrote:

> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>John Carrier wrote:
>>
>>>>On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
>>>>miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
>>>>back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a
>>>>steep climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>>>
>>>SNIP
>>>
>>>You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?
>>
>>I'd bet it's a radar altimeter value from the aircraft's flight data
>>recorder (yes, newer military aircraft do have FDRs). Probably written up
>>in the incident report.
>
>
> Never seen a radalt that read to single digits. T-45 airborne data recorder
> (probably similar to F-18) get radalt in tens of feet, pressure alt in 20's.

Maybe it remembers radalt in multiples of 8 or 16 feet?

The article could have been better written. We have an approximate
"more than 650mph" [true or indicated?] followed by an exact "96
feet" in the same sentence. What are they teeching the schooles in
these days?

[Mike Kanze]

Almost unbelieveable display of immaturity and selfishness on the part of
this guy. I thought all the Mavericks and Icemen had been flushed from the
system by now.

Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.

Good to know that this hot-dog will no longer grace our skies.

--
Mike Kanze

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of
animal rights."

- Time magazine's Lance Morrow, written after the September 11 attacks.


"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
ups.com...
years and years to earn...seconds to lose...

[rest snipped]

[Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:39:19 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
> postulated :

>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
>our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.

A-5s out of Oceana used to make bomb runs on the Kerr Lake dam which
is on the VA/NC border. I've been in one of the campgrounds and you
could almost count the rivets on the Grumman Iron.

[Tom]

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
> > Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
> > Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
> > County Regional Airport.
> >
> > On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
> > miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
> > back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a steep
> > climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>
> SNIP
>
> You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?

...and was he on QFE? Or is it only Falcon drivers who make that mistake? ;-)

>
> R / John
>
>

[~^ beancounter ~^]

r u sure?...it is the la times.....i used
to know paul conrad...the la times political
cartoonist.....that always seemed like a cool
job......




"With the caveat that this is through the prism of the mainstream
media, I'll work on the basis that the details are accurate."

[Dave in San Diego]

Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com wrote in news:koofl1hirk309hqcfb9esupckiuqls8bun@
4ax.com:

> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:39:19 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
> > postulated :
>
>>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
>>our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>
> A-5s out of Oceana used to make bomb runs on the Kerr Lake dam which
> is on the VA/NC border. I've been in one of the campgrounds and you
> could almost count the rivets on the Grumman Iron.
>

Didn't you really mean A-6s? Viggies are North American Iron, formerly out of
somewhere in Jawja.

[~^ beancounter ~^]

then tell me Mike, what makes a good fighter
pilot?

[leadfoot]

>
> You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?

It's probably a readout of a flight data recorder coming from a radio
altimeter on the FA-18 which may read in 4 foot increments below 100 feet.

Another reason why this guy is an idiot since he had to know he was on the
FDR


>
> R / John
>
>

[Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:51:32 GMT, Dave in San Diego
> postulated :

>Didn't you really mean A-6s? Viggies are North American Iron, formerly out of
>somewhere in Jawja.

Yep! Right after hitting the "enter" key I saw the typo. I've always
wanted a keyboard with a "Ignore Last Key" .




Ride Safe!
Greasy Rider© SLOB-6
'97 FLHTCI Lehman trike
Life is best behind bars

[Joe Delphi]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Besides, from the rest of the article -- the part where he wrote a nasty
> email to one of the people who reported the flyby -- he sounds like he
> really loved flying and was pretty angry about getting busted. But that
> same incident demonstrates his continuing poor judgementand lack of
> maturity. He broke the rules and knew it; blaming others for turning him
in
> was just plain childish. Sounds like he thought it would have been OK to
> violate flight safety rules if no one had caught him at it.
>

Yep, I agree. The letter writing incident is almost more revealing about
his character than the whole flyby part of it. There is probably a lot more
to this story, involving his personality, than what got wrote up in the LA
Times article. He probably ****ed off more than a few people along the way
of his military career and when he needed some help at the end of the long,
green table - there was none to be found.

JD

[Kyle Boatright]

"Dave in San Diego" > wrote in message
...
> Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com wrote in
> news:koofl1hirk309hqcfb9esupckiuqls8bun@
> 4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:39:19 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
>> > postulated :
>>
>>>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
>>>our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>>
>> A-5s out of Oceana used to make bomb runs on the Kerr Lake dam which
>> is on the VA/NC border. I've been in one of the campgrounds and you
>> could almost count the rivets on the Grumman Iron.
>>
>
> Didn't you really mean A-6s? Viggies are North American Iron, formerly out
> of
> somewhere in Jawja.

North American in Georgia? Not in my lifetime (nor before the, IIRC)...

KB

[Yofuri]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "Dave in San Diego" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com wrote in
>>news:koofl1hirk309hqcfb9esupckiuqls8bun@
>>4ax.com:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:39:19 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
> postulated :
>>>
>>>
>>>>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
>>>>our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>>>
>>>A-5s out of Oceana used to make bomb runs on the Kerr Lake dam which
>>>is on the VA/NC border. I've been in one of the campgrounds and you
>>>could almost count the rivets on the Grumman Iron.
>>>
>>
>>Didn't you really mean A-6s? Viggies are North American Iron, formerly out
>>of
>>somewhere in Jawja.
>
>
> North American in Georgia? Not in my lifetime (nor before the, IIRC)...
>
> KB
>
>

Built at Columbus, OH, based at NAS Albany, GA. Purtiest airframe the
Navy ever bought, with no ailerons, elevator or rudder.

http://www.bobjellison.com/RA5C_Vigilante.htm

Rick

[Jack G]

Thanks for the interesting link -

Any opinions on the which was the best looking airplane - Vigilante or
Voodoo?

Jack G.


> Built at Columbus, OH, based at NAS Albany, GA. Purtiest airframe the
> Navy ever bought, with no ailerons, elevator or rudder.
>
> http://www.bobjellison.com/RA5C_Vigilante.htm
>
> Rick

[Dave in San Diego]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in
:

>
> "Dave in San Diego" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com wrote in
>> news:koofl1hirk309hqcfb9esupckiuqls8bun@
>> 4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:39:19 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
>>> > postulated :
>>>
>>>>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.)
>>>>Were our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>>>
>>> A-5s out of Oceana used to make bomb runs on the Kerr Lake dam which
>>> is on the VA/NC border. I've been in one of the campgrounds and you
>>> could almost count the rivets on the Grumman Iron.
>>>
>>
>> Didn't you really mean A-6s? Viggies are North American Iron, formerly
>> out of
>> somewhere in Jawja.
>
> North American in Georgia? Not in my lifetime (nor before the, IIRC)...
>
> KB

This link - http://www.vectorsite.net/ava5.html - substantiates it as NA
Iron, and

this link - http://www.skyhawk.org/3E/rvah3/rvah3p.htm substantiates it as
having lived in JawJa.

Runway to runway, Nas Brunswick, ME to NAS Albany, GA in 65 minutes, 1 Jan
72, by an RA-5C.

Dave in San Diego
AT1, USN (ret)
1969 - 1989

[~^ beancounter ~^]

Vigilante fo me...i liked the loooong nose...

we had one come in hot or heavy and break off its
nose gear one afternoon...quite a noise...fair amount
of sparks....

uss ranger - 1976

[Kyle Boatright]

"Dave in San Diego" > wrote in message
. 30...
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Dave in San Diego" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com wrote in
>>> news:koofl1hirk309hqcfb9esupckiuqls8bun@
>>> 4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:39:19 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
>>>> > postulated :
>>>>
>>>>>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.)
>>>>>Were our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>>>>
>>>> A-5s out of Oceana used to make bomb runs on the Kerr Lake dam which
>>>> is on the VA/NC border. I've been in one of the campgrounds and you
>>>> could almost count the rivets on the Grumman Iron.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Didn't you really mean A-6s? Viggies are North American Iron, formerly
>>> out of
>>> somewhere in Jawja.
>>
>> North American in Georgia? Not in my lifetime (nor before then, IIRC)...
>>
>> KB
>
> This link - http://www.vectorsite.net/ava5.html - substantiates it as NA
> Iron, and
>
> this link - http://www.skyhawk.org/3E/rvah3/rvah3p.htm substantiates it as
> having lived in JawJa.
>
> Runway to runway, Nas Brunswick, ME to NAS Albany, GA in 65 minutes, 1 Jan
> 72, by an RA-5C.
>
> Dave in San Diego
> AT1, USN (ret)
> 1969 - 1989

Aha, I read the original post as having been built in GA...

KB

[Harry Andreas]

In article om>, "~^
beancounter ~^" > wrote:

Dude, you really need to put in the attribution when you cut and paste an
article like this.

It's not fair to the authors or to the newspaper that paid their salary.

For those that want to know, this was in the LA Times on Wednesday.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Yeff]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:05:41 -0700, Harry Andreas wrote:

> For those that want to know, this was in the LA Times on Wednesday.

Specifically,
<http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jetfighter19oct19,0,6419216.story?coll=la-home-local>

--

-Jeff B.
zoomie at fastmail dot fm

[~^ beancounter ~^]

only if i am trying to sell or "gain" by re posting it...


"Dude, you really need to put in the attribution
when you cut and paste an article like this."

[John Carrier]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> John Carrier wrote:
>
>> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>
>>>John Carrier wrote:
>>>
>>>>>On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
>>>>>miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
>>>>>back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a
>>>>>steep climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>>>>
>>>>SNIP
>>>>
>>>>You're sure now. Not 95 feet, not 97, but precisely 96 feet?
>>>
>>>I'd bet it's a radar altimeter value from the aircraft's flight data
>>>recorder (yes, newer military aircraft do have FDRs). Probably written
>>>up in the incident report.
>>
>>
>> Never seen a radalt that read to single digits. T-45 airborne data
>> recorder (probably similar to F-18) get radalt in tens of feet, pressure
>> alt in 20's.
>
> Maybe it remembers radalt in multiples of 8 or 16 feet?
>
> The article could have been better written. We have an approximate "more
> than 650mph" [true or indicated?] followed by an exact "96 feet" in the
> same sentence. What are they teeching the schooles in these days?

Just looked at the article. If it was a superbug, it's doubtful it was
doing 650 anyway. Them's jets is slooowww, man. (F-8U1 was faster in 1955
.... the Navy's first 1000mph jet.) But the bugs can sure generate alpha!

R / John

[Mike Kanze]

beancounter,

>i liked the loooong nose...

But with the nosewheel strut located aft of the pilot's cockpit, it took a
bit more than the average amount of faith to follow the director's signals
when hanging out beyond the deck edge...at night...in the rain.

This rarely bothered RAN friends of mine, who were cooped up in that aft
cockpit with those tiny slits for windows.

--
Mike Kanze

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of
animal rights."

- Time magazine's Lance Morrow, written after the September 11 attacks.


"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
oups.com...
Vigilante fo me...i liked the loooong nose...

we had one come in hot or heavy and break off its
nose gear one afternoon...quite a noise...fair amount
of sparks....

uss ranger - 1976

[Mike Kanze]

beancounter,

>then tell me Mike, what makes a good fighter pilot?

I was an A-6A B/N, so I'll let the fighter types answer that one.

More seriously, I don't think it matters what you fly. Immaturity and
selfishness can be found in any flying community.

--
Mike Kanze

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of
animal rights."

- Time magazine's Lance Morrow, written after the September 11 attacks.


"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
oups.com...
then tell me Mike, what makes a good fighter
pilot?

[WaltBJ]

It's peacetime and all the worrywarts have crawled out of the walls -
again- to tell everyone else 'you're doing it all wrong.' I saw it
happen three distinct times during my career. Granted - the F18 stud
hung it out a bit much. But I fondly remember a pentagon type - an 06
who briefed the JCS daily - that the 'career hawks' cringed whenever
some stud hung it out too far but when the guns started shooting the
'stars' were damn glad those same studs were around to go lay some
expert hurt on the bad guys. Anybody who willingly and eagerly goes out
to trade shots with the enemy isn't exactly a tame, sane and stable
character.
Walt BJ

[leadfoot]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> It's peacetime and all the worrywarts have crawled out of the walls -
> again- to tell everyone else 'you're doing it all wrong.' I saw it
> happen three distinct times during my career. Granted - the F18 stud
> hung it out a bit much. But I fondly remember a pentagon type - an 06
> who briefed the JCS daily - that the 'career hawks' cringed whenever
> some stud hung it out too far but when the guns started shooting the
> 'stars' were damn glad those same studs were around to go lay some
> expert hurt on the bad guys. Anybody who willingly and eagerly goes out
> to trade shots with the enemy isn't exactly a tame, sane and stable
> character.
> Walt BJ

Attitude is everything, especially after you've been caught with your pants
down.

Someone else has pointed out that considering the young officers behavior
after he lost his wings that this probably wasn't the first time he's pulled
something cocky so I doubt his reaction when confronted was " I realize I
did something really stupid and wish I hadn't done it"

Is what he did a GUARANTEED loss of wings? Or if he had an otherwise good
record could his flying carreer had been saved?


>

[Mike Kanze]

Walt BJ,

>It's peacetime and all the worrywarts have crawled out of the walls

True. And all the more reason to mind our manners. I'd rather not give the
politicians any more reason to cut our rations than they can conjure on
their own.

>but when the guns started shooting the 'stars' were damn glad those same
>studs were around to go lay some expert hurt on the bad guys.

I have no problem with that.

But given a choice, I'd prefer someone smart enough to know when to hang it
out, and when not to. There are plenty of times and places where someone can
establish one's bonafides and do so without endangering the campesinos and
the taxpayer's dinero, not to mention one's own hide or the skin of a
crewmate.

This guy didn't pass that test.

>Anybody who willingly and eagerly goes out to trade shots with the enemy
>isn't exactly a tame, sane and stable character.

Add to that the willingness to do so from a pitching flight deck, and you
definitely have a bunch of certifiables. <g>

--
Mike Kanze

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of
animal rights."

- Time magazine's Lance Morrow, written after the September 11 attacks.


"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
ups.com...
It's peacetime and all the worrywarts have crawled out of the walls -
again- to tell everyone else 'you're doing it all wrong.' I saw it
happen three distinct times during my career. Granted - the F18 stud
hung it out a bit much. But I fondly remember a pentagon type - an 06
who briefed the JCS daily - that the 'career hawks' cringed whenever
some stud hung it out too far but when the guns started shooting the
'stars' were damn glad those same studs were around to go lay some
expert hurt on the bad guys. Anybody who willingly and eagerly goes out
to trade shots with the enemy isn't exactly a tame, sane and stable
character.
Walt BJ

[St. John Smythe]

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
> then tell me Mike, what makes a good fighter
> pilot?

Combined
o Flying ability/skill
o Aggressiveness
o Good judgement

Remove any one of the above and you don't have a good fighter pilot.
--
St. John

[Mike Kanze]

Amen!

--
Mike Kanze

"A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of
animal rights."

- Time magazine's Lance Morrow, written after the September 11 attacks.


"St. John Smythe" > wrote in message
...
> ~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
>> then tell me Mike, what makes a good fighter
>> pilot?
>
> Combined
> o Flying ability/skill
> o Aggressiveness
> o Good judgement
>
> Remove any one of the above and you don't have a good fighter pilot.
> --
> St. John

[José Herculano]

> A flyby at your old stomping ground is one thing, but high speed pass
> followed by an afterburner climb (shudder!)? There's a time and place for
> that kind of flying, but this wasn't it. Methinks a more garden variety
> touch and go would have resulted in getting smacked hard but keeping his
> wings.

He might have kept his wings, even though he did the whole "routine", if it
was a "first offense", me thinks... now with previous screwups on record,
that's a different ball game...
_____________
José Herculano

[Tiger]

Thomas Schoene wrote:

> WaltBJ wrote:
> > That F18 pilot knew exactly what he was doing. My guess is that he was
> > fed up with the Navy and decided to hang it up. Note - he was on an
> > authorized sortie or else there'd been a lot more severe action taken.
> > Walt BJ
>
> He had four years left to run on his committment; did he think they would
> let him skate on that?
>
> Besides, from the rest of the article -- the part where he wrote a nasty
> email to one of the people who reported the flyby -- he sounds like he
> really loved flying and was pretty angry about getting busted. But that
> same incident demonstrates his continuing poor judgementand lack of
> maturity. He broke the rules and knew it; blaming others for turning him in
> was just plain childish. Sounds like he thought it would have been OK to
> violate flight safety rules if no one had caught him at it.
>
> --
> Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
> "Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
> wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

Hey, welcome to Generation Oprah. Par for the course for people to day. Guess
he thought he was Tom Cruise or something?

[Tiger]

Mike Kanze wrote:

> Almost unbelieveable display of immaturity and selfishness on the part of
> this guy. I thought all the Mavericks and Icemen had been flushed from the
> system by now.
>
>

Have you lost that lovin feeling? Personally I have the Need. The need for
Speed!

[Dan Sebby]

Joe Delphi wrote:
> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > Besides, from the rest of the article -- the part where he wrote a nasty
> > email to one of the people who reported the flyby -- he sounds like he
> > really loved flying and was pretty angry about getting busted. But that
> > same incident demonstrates his continuing poor judgementand lack of
> > maturity. He broke the rules and knew it; blaming others for turning him
> in
> > was just plain childish. Sounds like he thought it would have been OK to
> > violate flight safety rules if no one had caught him at it.
> >
>
> Yep, I agree. The letter writing incident is almost more revealing about
> his character than the whole flyby part of it. There is probably a lot more
> to this story, involving his personality, than what got wrote up in the LA
> Times article. He probably ****ed off more than a few people along the way
> of his military career and when he needed some help at the end of the long,
> green table - there was none to be found.
>
> JD
More to the story. Indeed. I have the complete record of board action.
It made mention of a couple other incidents, less serious, which the
Navy considered along with this latest afterburner action. LA times
Ricci's investigation was professional and accurate.

I am one of the individuals (a pilot) who reported it to SBP's airport
administration.

[~^ beancounter ~^]

ture, i think i perfer a "bit" of attitude and cockyness in a
fighter polit......


" I don't think it matters what you fly. Immaturity and
selfishness can be found in any flying community. "

[~^ beancounter ~^]

three solid traits....i agree...

o Flying ability/skill
o Aggressiveness
o Good judgement

[lehei]

On 23 Oct 2005 16:14:34 -0700, "~^ beancounter ~^"
> wrote:

>three solid traits....i agree...
>
>o Flying ability/skill
>o Aggressiveness
>o Good judgement


I saw a similar fly-by a few years ago. A B-1, except that the pilot
set it up ahead of time. And it was awesome :-).

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2000/06/23/stories/helena/1e.txt

[NickC]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote in
:

> beancounter,
>
>>i liked the loooong nose...
>
> But with the nosewheel strut located aft of the pilot's cockpit, it
> took a bit more than the average amount of faith to follow the
> director's signals when hanging out beyond the deck edge...at
> night...in the rain.
>
> This rarely bothered RAN friends of mine, who were cooped up in that
> aft cockpit with those tiny slits for windows.
>

Sounds scary...

Mike, what tolerance do they use when they're directing the plane? I
would have thought, say, 5 feet, here and there wouldn't matter (why
direct the nose over the edge and risk the nosewheel hitting the 'kerb'
or whatever it's called?), but your comment makes it sound like they do
it much tighter.

--
Nick

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:19:35 +1000, NickC
> wrote:

>"Mike Kanze" > wrote in
:
>
>> beancounter,
>>
>>>i liked the loooong nose...
>>
>> But with the nosewheel strut located aft of the pilot's cockpit, it
>> took a bit more than the average amount of faith to follow the
>> director's signals when hanging out beyond the deck edge...at
>> night...in the rain.
>>
>> This rarely bothered RAN friends of mine, who were cooped up in that
>> aft cockpit with those tiny slits for windows.
>>
>
>Sounds scary...
>
>Mike, what tolerance do they use when they're directing the plane? I
>would have thought, say, 5 feet, here and there wouldn't matter (why
>direct the nose over the edge and risk the nosewheel hitting the 'kerb'
>or whatever it's called?), but your comment makes it sound like they do
>it much tighter.

I can't tell you the "tollerance" that a Yellow Shirt might use,
beyond the fact that it would be considered bad form to put a wheel in
the scupper drain (and even worse form to put one over the side :-) ).

Space on the flight deck is a very precious comodity and tollerances
are very tight. "Hanger rash" is not unknown, but not a good thing.

Being directed at night under the red lights is a spooky experience,
even in a Stoof. It a Viggie it would require a real "act of faith"
by the pilot! ;-)

Bill Kambic

[John Carrier]

"NickC" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Kanze" > wrote in
> :
>
>> beancounter,
>>
>>>i liked the loooong nose...
>>
>> But with the nosewheel strut located aft of the pilot's cockpit, it
>> took a bit more than the average amount of faith to follow the
>> director's signals when hanging out beyond the deck edge...at
>> night...in the rain.
>>
>> This rarely bothered RAN friends of mine, who were cooped up in that
>> aft cockpit with those tiny slits for windows.
>>
>
> Sounds scary...
>
> Mike, what tolerance do they use when they're directing the plane? I
> would have thought, say, 5 feet, here and there wouldn't matter (why
> direct the nose over the edge and risk the nosewheel hitting the 'kerb'
> or whatever it's called?), but your comment makes it sound like they do
> it much tighter.

Very tight. The F-8 had a similar configuration ... the nose wheel was
behind the cockpit (albeit not nearly as far as on the A-5). First aircraft
on recovery would be taxied outboard of cat one (maybe 6" from main mount to
scupper) and get a hard pivot at the bow to set up the tow for the next
cycle. The yellow shirts were aggressive in their use of the limited deck
space on a 27C ship. They'd try to get you cockpit over water prior to the
turn, but there was a point where the feet just couldn't get off the brakes
while he's calmly giving you a come forward signal with the wands on a
black-ass night (you're looking over your shoulder while he's doing this).
Eventually, he realized you weren't going to give him those last few inches
and he'd signal the turn with a rather disgusted motion.

BUT, it couldn't compare to a Vig doing the hard turn to spot on Cat 4.
That was a leap of faith.

R / John

[~^ beancounter ~^]

mike...ah...yea....it musta have felt weird to "taxi out over the edge"
while, doing a tight turn to park...at least at night you wouldn't have
to stare down at , say the indian ocean..sliding by @ 30 kts ;-) ...
those planes "looked fast" just tied down on the flight deck....

[~^ beancounter ~^]

i can, it depends on a number of things 1) the
pilot you are directing and their ability to react
2) the pitching and other environmentals of the
deck you are working on 3) the risk the yellow
shirt deemes is approprate 4) the need for "space"
on the current deck...


"I can't tell you the "tollerance" that
a Yellow Shirt might use"...

[Mike Kanze]

Nick,

>Mike, what tolerance do they use when they're directing the plane?

Not sure I know what you are asking. Besides, I'm not a Viggie type - just
had a couple of buddies in my BJN class become RANs after our winging, so
all my Viggie knowledge is 2nd hand.

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big
enough to take from you everything you have."

- President Gerald R. Ford


"NickC" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Kanze" > wrote in
> :
>
>> beancounter,
>>
>>>i liked the loooong nose...
>>
>> But with the nosewheel strut located aft of the pilot's cockpit, it
>> took a bit more than the average amount of faith to follow the
>> director's signals when hanging out beyond the deck edge...at
>> night...in the rain.
>>
>> This rarely bothered RAN friends of mine, who were cooped up in that
>> aft cockpit with those tiny slits for windows.
>>
>
> Sounds scary...
>
> Mike, what tolerance do they use when they're directing the plane? I
> would have thought, say, 5 feet, here and there wouldn't matter (why
> direct the nose over the edge and risk the nosewheel hitting the 'kerb'
> or whatever it's called?), but your comment makes it sound like they do
> it much tighter.
>
> --
> Nick

[Mike Kanze]

Another thought for this thread re this pilot's actions:

"What would Gramps (Grampaw Pettibone) say?"

I suspect the august gentleman would not speak kindly of this guy's actions,
and would include any number of "Great horned toadies!" "Jumpin'
Jehoshepats!" and similar Gramps invective.

--
Mike Kanze

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big
enough to take from you everything you have."

- President Gerald R. Ford


"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> years and years to earn...seconds to lose...
>
> ---------------------------------------
> SAN LUIS OBISPO - At a quarter past noon on Jan. 21, a U.S. Navy F-18
> Super Hornet jet fighter flown by a combat-tested pilot named Richard
> Webb appeared over the Edna Valley and streaked toward San Luis Obispo
> County Regional Airport.
>
> On its first pass, the Super Hornet screamed along at more than 650
> miles an hour, just 96 feet above the main runway. Soon it circled
> back, touched down on the tarmac for an instant, then went into a steep
> climb, afterburner roaring, and disappeared in the skies.
>
>[rest snipped]

[[email protected]]

John Carrier wrote:

> The yellow shirts were aggressive in their use of the limited deck
> space on a 27C ship. They'd try to get you cockpit over water prior to the
> turn, but there was a point where the feet just couldn't get off the brakes
> while he's calmly giving you a come forward signal with the wands on a
> black-ass night (you're looking over your shoulder while he's doing this).
> Eventually, he realized you weren't going to give him those last few inches
> and he'd signal the turn with a rather disgusted motion.
>
> BUT, it couldn't compare to a Vig doing the hard turn to spot on Cat 4.
> That was a leap of faith.

Hi, John. Believe it or not, it was the same with an S-3 - often the
yella shirt was standing off to the side, guiding the aircraft's nose
out over the side. LT Snyder and LT Lyman were two young guys in my
first squadron (Topcats) and I had an agreement with them that during
tight spotting, I'd be somewhere nearby to visually confirm that they
weren't at/near the skupper. Opposite was CDR Aunchman - that cool
headed race car driver would roll right up to it and make a smooth turn
away from the water that made us gasp more than once.

"Shiiiiit, did you see that??" .. and he'd have a wry smile looking
back at us.

Hope all is well on your end.
v/r
Gordon

[~^ beancounter ~^]

i will always remember the late nights the
the ship was rolling, and we would taxie a
plane across spilt hyd fluid, or water on the
deck ... ocassionally the plane would do the
"slip and slide" with a tractor hooked up or
attached...it would (could) as exciting for a
moment or two...

[[email protected]]

>Mike, what tolerance do they use when they're directing the plane? I
>would have thought, say, 5 feet, here and there wouldn't matter (why
>direct the nose over the edge and risk the nosewheel hitting the 'kerb'
>or whatever it's called?), but your comment makes it sound like they do
>it much tighter.

They were so long that it was the only way to get them lined up on the
cat

[FatKat]

What sort of air traffic normally goes through that airport? Here in
the NY-Long Island area, there are always complaints about air traffic
in and out of our regional airports. Civic groups looking for any
excuse to hem in these airports would probably have loved to have had
Aviator Webb come down and put on an impromptu show in their backyard.
I'm guessing that if the airport in question here is already under
pressure from surrounding neighborhoods, then their concern against
Webb is sincere.

[FatKat]

Mike Kanze wrote:
> Almost unbelieveable display of immaturity and selfishness on the part of
> this guy. I thought all the Mavericks and Icemen had been flushed from the
> system by now.
>
> Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
> our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>
> Good to know that this hot-dog will no longer grace our skies.
>
This guy really doesn't come off well, does he? Reminds me of the
fictitious "Soup" Campbell from "Punk's War". I always thought that
character was just a bit too much to believe, but now I'm going to have
to go back and re-read that story.

[SeppoP]

FatKat wrote:
> Mike Kanze wrote:
>
>>Almost unbelieveable display of immaturity and selfishness on the part of
>>this guy. I thought all the Mavericks and Icemen had been flushed from the
>>system by now.
>>
>>Did my generation do these stupid stunts? Hell, yes. (Even in A-6s.) Were
>>our actions any "better" than this young man's? Hell, no.
>>
>>Good to know that this hot-dog will no longer grace our skies.
>>
>
> This guy really doesn't come off well, does he? Reminds me of the
> fictitious "Soup" Campbell from "Punk's War". I always thought that
> character was just a bit too much to believe, but now I'm going to have
> to go back and re-read that story.
>

There's another story that needs to be remembered:
(just to recap, maybe some of you haven't seen this [unfortunate] "classic" report)

<http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm>

--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)

[~^ beancounter ~^]

SeppoP...wow, thats quite a report...some very interesting
observations and thoughts.....This is the "famous" b52
stalling video, i take it.......

[St. John Smythe]

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
> SeppoP...wow, thats quite a report...some very interesting
> observations and thoughts.....This is the "famous" b52
> stalling video, i take it.......

When I saw that on the History Channel, I think, the commentary
suggested that the cause was malicious compliance, that is, the senior
officer said something like "don't you dare fly over _______," so the
PIC banked smartly and in so doing, departed the envelope.

Am I remembering that correctly?
--
St. John

[~^ beancounter ~^]

i think it stated in the report, there was another aircraft
on the active...and the b52 was instructed to do a go
around....

[~^ beancounter ~^]

lifted from the report....


--------snip----------------
On the 24th of June 1994, Czar 52, a B-52H assigned to
the 325th Bomb Squadron, 92d Bomb Wing, Fairchild Air
Force Base, WA, launched at approximate 1358 hours Pacific
Daylight Time (PDT), to practice maneuvers for an upcoming
airshow. The aircrew had the planned and briefed a profile, through
the Wing Commander level, that grossly exceeded aircraft and
regulatory limitations. Upon preparing to land at the end of
the practice airshow profile, the crew was required to execute
a "go-around" or missed approach because of another aircraft
on the runway. At mid-field, Czar 52 began a tight 360 degree
left turn around the control tower at only 250 feet altitude above
ground level (AGL). Approximately three quarters of the way
through the turn, the aircraft banked past 90 degrees, stalled,
clipped a power line with the left wing and crashed. Impact
occurred at approximately 1416 hours PDT. There were no
survivors out of a crew of four field grade officers.

[~^ beancounter ~^]

that was a wicked fireball...he musta
had quite a bit of fuel on board......how
much fuel did a b52 hold ?... probabally
a few thousand gallons.....

[FatKat]

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
> lifted from the report....
>
>
> --------snip----------------
> On the 24th of June 1994, Czar 52, a B-52H assigned to
> the 325th Bomb Squadron, 92d Bomb Wing, Fairchild Air
> Force Base, WA, launched at approximate 1358 hours Pacific
> Daylight Time (PDT), to practice maneuvers for an upcoming
> airshow. The aircrew had the planned and briefed a profile, through
> the Wing Commander level, that grossly exceeded aircraft and
> regulatory limitations. Upon preparing to land at the end of
> the practice airshow profile, the crew was required to execute
> a "go-around" or missed approach because of another aircraft
> on the runway. At mid-field, Czar 52 began a tight 360 degree
> left turn around the control tower at only 250 feet altitude above
> ground level (AGL). Approximately three quarters of the way
> through the turn, the aircraft banked past 90 degrees, stalled,
> clipped a power line with the left wing and crashed. Impact
> occurred at approximately 1416 hours PDT. There were no
> survivors out of a crew of four field grade officers.

The irony is that Fairchild had suffered a tragedy earlier when some
nut with a gun shot up a few people, and then himself. The airshow was
supposed to make people feel better.

[Tex Houston]

"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> that was a wicked fireball...he musta
> had quite a bit of fuel on board......how
> much fuel did a b52 hold ?... probabally
> a few thousand gallons.....
>
It has been a long time but I remember maximum peacetime landing weight as
270,000 pounds giving 180,000 pounds of airplane and 90,000 pounds of fuel.
Their gross weight was about 450,000 pounds. I have no idea where he was in
his flight plan.

Tex

[SeppoP]

St. John Smythe wrote:
> ~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
>
>>SeppoP...wow, thats quite a report...some very interesting
>>observations and thoughts.....This is the "famous" b52
>>stalling video, i take it.......
>
>
> When I saw that on the History Channel, I think, the commentary
> suggested that the cause was malicious compliance, that is, the senior
> officer said something like "don't you dare fly over _______," so the
> PIC banked smartly and in so doing, departed the envelope.
>
> Am I remembering that correctly?

I remember having seen that same program on Discovery channel.

--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)

[[email protected]]

>More seriously, I don't think it matters what you fly. Immaturity
>and selfishness can be found in any flying community.


Except SAR units of course ;)

(yes that was a joke!)

[Tex Houston]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> >More seriously, I don't think it matters what you fly. Immaturity
>>and selfishness can be found in any flying community.
>
>
> Except SAR units of course ;)
>
> (yes that was a joke!)
>
My friend Billy Sparks who celebrates two birthdays each year, one being the
anniversary of when he was picked up waaay north in NVN, goes to the rescue
display at every airshow he attends and thanks each member of the unit there
individually.

Regards,

Tex Houston

[~^ beancounter ~^]

tex....i'll bet he is happy to be able
to give thanx......