Jim Weir: Moving map GPS

[John S]

Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control Vision),
but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice little
subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.

J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or Videocassette
players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?

Thanks.

[RST Engineering]

That is outside my field of expertise. Any bit twiddlers in here care to
respond?

Jim


"John S" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control Vision),
> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice little
> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>
> J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or Videocassette
> players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
> Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?
>
> Thanks.
>
>

[Darrel Toepfer]

RST Engineering wrote:
> "John S" > wrote...
>
>>Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control Vision),
>>but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice little
>>subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>>
>>J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or Videocassette
>>players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
>>Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?

> That is outside my field of expertise. Any bit twiddlers in here
care > to respond?

Dual output laptops (notebooks) use SVGA/SVideo, so you'd have to
convert SVideo or SVGA to NTSC composite to be compatible. The dual
output allows you to have basically 2 desktops, an extension of your
current desktop or mirror the desktop to both displays...

[AINut]

However, be careful of RFI noise that some LCD's create in the aviation
band.


Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> RST Engineering wrote:
>
>> "John S" > wrote...
>>
>>> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control
>>> Vision),
>>> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice little
>>> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>>>
>>> J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or Videocassette
>>> players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
>>> Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?
>
>
> > That is outside my field of expertise. Any bit twiddlers in here
> care > to respond?
>
> Dual output laptops (notebooks) use SVGA/SVideo, so you'd have to
> convert SVideo or SVGA to NTSC composite to be compatible. The dual
> output allows you to have basically 2 desktops, an extension of your
> current desktop or mirror the desktop to both displays...

[Jim Carriere]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> RST Engineering wrote:
>
>> "John S" > wrote...
>>
>>> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control
>>> Vision),
>>> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice little
>>> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>>>
>>> J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or Videocassette
>>> players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
>>> Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?
>
>
> > That is outside my field of expertise. Any bit twiddlers in here
> care > to respond?
>
> Dual output laptops (notebooks) use SVGA/SVideo, so you'd have to
> convert SVideo or SVGA to NTSC composite to be compatible. The dual
> output allows you to have basically 2 desktops, an extension of your
> current desktop or mirror the desktop to both displays...

I think there are some laptops around with composite video output, a
couple years ago we had some P-3 Dells at work with it I'm sure.

Composite is the one with a single yellow connector, right? (The
same type of connectors colored white and red are optional left and
right stereo sound.) My desktop computer has all 3 (VGA, S-Video,
and composite) inputs and outputs. I know, the original question is
for laptops.

Since a key part of the question is "cheap," it might take some
shopping around. I think there are inexpensive S-video to composite
adapters made too.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Jim Carriere wrote:

> Composite is the one with a single yellow connector, right? (The same
> type of connectors colored white and red are optional left and right
> stereo sound.) My desktop computer has all 3 (VGA, S-Video, and
> composite) inputs and outputs. I know, the original question is for
> laptops.

CGA was easy to port to NTSC and RGB. VGA/SVGA took more hardware...

Most everything (cheap) is now Svideo only. To get the dual desktops,
does take a special videocard (chipset)...

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:07:52 GMT, "John S" >
wrote:

>Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control Vision),
>but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice little
>subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>
>J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or Videocassette
>players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
>Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?

You will need an SVGA to NTSC converter to solve this problem. I am
not sure of the cost of commercial solutions, nor the chipsets to roll
your own. There may be issues with losing portions of the screen.
Ie, you may lose the bottom and right portions of the screen in this
setup.

Before you jump into building this LCD + laptop setup, I relate my
story as I went through the same hoops you are trying to get through.

Background: I run moving map software as a secondary navigational
tool in my Cherokee 180. The computing platform has always been a
Windows based PC.

I started off using a laptop in the cockpit, and got my first
realization of how much the cables are a pain in the cockpit. Worse,
the display is dim, washed out by the smallest amount of daylight. It
also did not have a contrast/brightness control, which made it
overwhelming at night. As well, the only place to put it in a single
is on the passenger seat. Fine if you are solo. Bad if you have
passengers.

So I moved the laptop to the backseat and bought a touchscreen VGA
monitor with approx 8" diagonal viewing area. This unit was about
$300 used on eBay. Again, brightness was my enemy. You don't realize
how much of a greenhouse the aircraft cabin is until you try do some
computing up there... It takes a LOT of nits to give a good display
in the daylight. Also, this setup brought to light another issue.
What do you do when the touchscreen isn't enough. Ie, when the
inevitable Ctrl-Alt-Del comes along or a full system reboot. Turning
on the autopilot and reaching into the backseat did not seem like a
safe solution, so eventually I abandoned it completely.

I ended up purchasing a Fujitsu ST4121 tablet PC. This tablet PC has
a transflective display, which allows sunlight to pass through the
LCD, hit the reflector behind the display, and then act as a backlight
for the LCD. The end result, it is sunlight readable. The colors wash
out a bit, ie, the particular shades of colors blend together, but
the base colors are distinguishable. You would not mistake red for
blue for green for black... The PC is NOT touchscreen, it has a
stylus as input, but my moving map software only rarely requires
keyboard input, so that is not as big an issue for me as perhaps
others...

Anyway, I'm really happy with the ST4121, and I would encourage anyone
else to give it a go. The ST4121 is also a very capable PC (933MHz +
512MB + 60G HDD), so I use it outside of the plane as well. If you
want to have a look at my setup and are in the Chicago area, I'm sure
we can arrange for a breakfast at Morris, Clow, or elsewhere.

-Nathan

[Ross Oliver]

It is all the rage among the geeky crowd to build tiny PCs to put
under the seat of your car for GPS navigation, music, etc. You can
buy them off the shelf, designed to run on 12vdc. For example:

www.mini-box.com
www.mini-itx.com
www.logicsupply.com

Some of them even have composite video outputs. Or you could use a
cheap VGA-to-composite video converter. I have one that I use for
presentations at venues that have only video screens. Cost about
$50 and draws power from the USB port of my laptop. But you definitely
lose some resolution.

EarthLCD (www.earthlcd.com) sells a 7.8" LCD screen with VGA input,
but the resolution is only 640x480, and contrast is only 45:1.

A lot of the mini-itx form factor PC motherboards can drive an LCD
screen directly, but I have not had much luck finding bare color LCD
screens in the 5-7" range, nor details on how to hook them up to
a mini-itx motherboard.


Happy hacking,

Ross Oliver

[Vaughn]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:07:52 GMT, "John S" >
> wrote:
> You will need an SVGA to NTSC converter to solve this problem. I am
> not sure of the cost of commercial solutions, nor the chipsets to roll
> your own. There may be issues with losing portions of the screen.
> Ie, you may lose the bottom and right portions of the screen in this
> setup.
>
In my experience with these converters, you will also lose significant
resolution. In my case, it was so bad that some text was difficult to read.

Vaughn

[Ernest Christley]

Jim Carriere wrote:
> Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>
>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>
>>> "John S" > wrote...
>>>
>>>> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control
>>>> Vision),
>>>> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice
>>>> little
>>>> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>>>>
>>>> J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or
>>>> Videocassette
>>>> players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.) $150.
>>>> Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?
>>
>>
>>
>> > That is outside my field of expertise. Any bit twiddlers in here
>> care > to respond?
>>
>> Dual output laptops (notebooks) use SVGA/SVideo, so you'd have to
>> convert SVideo or SVGA to NTSC composite to be compatible. The dual
>> output allows you to have basically 2 desktops, an extension of your
>> current desktop or mirror the desktop to both displays...
>
>
> I think there are some laptops around with composite video output, a
> couple years ago we had some P-3 Dells at work with it I'm sure.
>
> Composite is the one with a single yellow connector, right? (The same
> type of connectors colored white and red are optional left and right
> stereo sound.) My desktop computer has all 3 (VGA, S-Video, and
> composite) inputs and outputs. I know, the original question is for
> laptops.
>
> Since a key part of the question is "cheap," it might take some shopping
> around. I think there are inexpensive S-video to composite adapters
> made too.

I'm typing from a computer that has composite out. Most Toshiba
notebooks have them. I have the Satellite model.

Unfortunately, it's useless for anything other than the DVD display as
the text is completely unreadable on the TV out.

[Frank van der Hulst]

Ernest Christley wrote:
> Jim Carriere wrote:
>
>> Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>>
>>>> "John S" > wrote...
>>>>
>>>>> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control
>>>>> Vision),
>>>>> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice
>>>>> little
>>>>> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or
>>>>> Videocassette
>>>>> players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.)
>>>>> $150.
>>>>> Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?

>> Since a key part of the question is "cheap," it might take some
>> shopping around. I think there are inexpensive S-video to composite
>> adapters made too.
>
> I'm typing from a computer that has composite out. Most Toshiba
> notebooks have them. I have the Satellite model.
>
> Unfortunately, it's useless for anything other than the DVD display as
> the text is completely unreadable on the TV out.

TV CRT screens are much lower quality than computer video screens. I
guess the same must apply to DVD players. Also, NTSC (and PAL and other
TV standards) are analog and designed for low bandwidth, so you're never
going to get that really sharp picture that you see on a laptop.

OTOH, perhaps you don't need a really sharp picture... careful use of
colour and graphics (eg bar graphs that change to red to indicate
dangerous values and the like) might be usable to impart information.
Perhaps also some clever use of sound too?

[[email protected]]

John S wrote:
> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control
Vision),
> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice
little
> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.

I don't know what you consider outrageous, but you might look into the
Sony Vaio Picturebook. I use one of these for a moving map display for
both aviation and vehicular travel (with a USB GPS receiver). The PC
is about the size of a VHS videotape, and amazingly bright (can be
read in direct sunlight, though I wouldn't do so by choice). The model
I have is a Pentium 266 and runs Windows 98 - kinda obsolete, but does
what I want it to very well. The cables are a nuisance, but that is
also true of my portable aviation GPS. There is one offered right now
on eBay at a buy-it-now price of $399.

David Johnson

[[email protected]]

Try ebay:
http://tinyurl.com/5vva8
for vga car video monitors.

[[email protected]]

I bought a MIO 168 Pocket OC running Windows CE with the intent of
using it with one of the movingmap/nav software packages. It has a
beautiful, high-resolution display in subdued ambient light but
completely washes-out and becomes unreadable in sunlight. I allowed
myself to be fooled by the various "product reviews" wherein the
reviewer apparently failed to get off his butt and actually go outside
and use it. Try before you buy! YMMV.

Sid Knox
Oklahoma

Velocity N199RS
Starduster N666SK
KR2 N24TC
W7QJQ



John S wrote:
> Jim, I like some of the PDA based nav software (TeleType, Control
Vision),
> but can't live with the tiny little screens on a PDA. And a nice
little
> subnotebook computer--even used--is outrageously expensive.
>
> J.C. Whitney sells a Pyramid 7" TFT/LCD monitor for DVD or
Videocassette
> players (System: NTSC. Video input: composition video signal.)
$150.
> Will this kind of monitor work with a cheap laptop computer?
>
> Thanks.