Help!

[Nyal Williams]

A few weeks ago there was an extended discussion on improving launch
efficiency. There were suggestions about dropping the tow rope, having
another ready with a glider staged, spot marks for the tow plane and
glider, etc. Mention was made of a particular soaring site that was
especially good at this.

I'm tring to retrieve that discussion and my searches have turned
nothing up. Can someone point me to this discussion?

[Mal]

There were suggestions about dropping the tow rope,

This is a good way to bend break and weaken the weak link not a good
practice.

[Marc Ramsey]

Mal wrote:
> There were suggestions about dropping the tow rope,
>
> This is a good way to bend break and weaken the weak link not a good
> practice.

Hmm, is dropping the weak link from 50 feet really make all that much
difference, given that it is also subject to being dragged through dirt,
bushes, rocks, asphalt, the odd fence, etc., at 50 miles per hour?

[Ray Lovinggood]

Nyal,

We try to speed up the operation by getting the pilot(s)
into the glider off to the side of the paved runway
where they can do most of their checks and get comfortable,
strapped in, etc. When they are ready to go, we hook
a golf cart up and pull them out onto the paved runway.
We operate on a public-use airfield so we try to spend
as little as time necessary on the paved runway.

If the towplane is coming back from a tow and a glider
is not ready to go, the tuggie will drop the rope on
the runway and someone will run out to drag it over
to the side, stretched out for the next hookup. We've
done this for many years and haven't seen a problem
with extra wear on a weak link or tow rope. This is
flying weekends only and on a busy day, we might have
20 tows.

We set cones at the side of the runway to indicate
where the towpilot should taxi to and stop while the
rope is hooked to the towplane. On runway 05, we push
the glider to the end of the runway and the towplane
taxies to the cone for his position and stops. At
this point, most of the slack in the rope is out when
the two aircraft are connected.

On runway 23, we also set a cone for where the glider
should be towed to by the golf cart. This point used
to be the end of runway 23, but over the past couple
of years, the runway has been lengthened and we are
still taking off from where we always did, giving us
3,700' of paved runway. (The lengthened runway will
be 5,000' when they open it.)

The use of the golf carts to pull the aircraft with
pilot to the takeoff spot does speed up our operation.
But when using the Grob, you need a lot of people.
You need a golf cart driver, a wing walker, and someone
to push down on the tail of the Grob to lift the nose
wheel off the ground.

Things go considerably slower when we don't have enough
ground crew.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 21:24 24 October 2005, Mal wrote:
>There were suggestions about dropping the tow rope,
>
>This is a good way to bend break and weaken the weak
>link not a good
>practice.
>
>
>

[Stewart Kissel]

None better then Parowan IMHO-

Glider is pushed out to end of runway...pilot gets
in, straps, GPS, logger, etc, etc. Then the second
tow rope is hooked up to the glider.

The towplane lands with the other rope still connected
facing the glider....taxis up facing the glider, drops
the rope on the side of the runway, turns 180 degrees,
is hooked up to the glider connected rope, tightens
the rope and waits for the rudder wag.

If done correctly the towplane never stops rolling!!

Obviously one needs an airport that can allow this,
but Parowan is a public airport.

[Nyal Williams]

Thanks to all who wrote. None of you really answered
my question, which was 'Can you point me to the discussion.'

This answer is the closest; I remember now that Parowan
was mentioned in that discussion. I would like to
retrieve all those posts if possible.

If impossible, the posts in answer to my question will
prove helpful , and I thank all of you.

Nyal


At 23:48 24 October 2005, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>None better then Parowan IMHO-
>
>Glider is pushed out to end of runway...pilot gets
>in, straps, GPS, logger, etc, etc. Then the second
>tow rope is hooked up to the glider.
>
>The towplane lands with the other rope still connected
> facing the glider....taxis up facing the glider, drops
>the rope on the side of the runway, turns 180 degrees,
>is hooked up to the glider connected rope, tightens
>the rope and waits for the rudder wag.
>
>If done correctly the towplane never stops rolling!!
>
>Obviously one needs an airport that can allow this,
>but Parowan is a public airport.
>
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

so which one is operating downwind.. the tow plane landing or the combined
take off
BT

"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> None better then Parowan IMHO-
>
> Glider is pushed out to end of runway...pilot gets
> in, straps, GPS, logger, etc, etc. Then the second
> tow rope is hooked up to the glider.
>
> The towplane lands with the other rope still connected
> facing the glider....taxis up facing the glider, drops
> the rope on the side of the runway, turns 180 degrees,
> is hooked up to the glider connected rope, tightens
> the rope and waits for the rudder wag.
>
> If done correctly the towplane never stops rolling!!
>
> Obviously one needs an airport that can allow this,
> but Parowan is a public airport.
>
>
>

[Mal]

The weak link is normally at the tug end above the ground so its dragged
through nothing !

I have seen evidence that dropping of ropes with weak links bending the weak
link and it breaking, I made it a mini project for a few months to watch the
practice as they would tell us they were going to drop the rope when
refuelling. I would inspect the weak link prior and afterwards.

During this time I observed from a distance a launch that was going to
proceed if I had not stopped it were one of the weak links was broken upon
examination the remanning link was bent and the link that broke, broke by
bending.

I have also seen the indent in a wing of a weak link breaking and hitting
the wing after hearing the instructors birds eye view I would rather be
towed with ropes that are not dropped.

I always inspect the rope when hooking up including the weak link.


>> There were suggestions about dropping the tow rope,
>>
>> This is a good way to bend break and weaken the weak link not a good
>> practice.
>
> Hmm, is dropping the weak link from 50 feet really make all that much
> difference, given that it is also subject to being dragged through dirt,
> bushes, rocks, asphalt, the odd fence, etc., at 50 miles per hour?

[5Z]

Mal,
In the USA we don't use metal weak links, they are generally made of a
rope weaker than the towrope. FARs stipulate the rope must be 80% -
200% of the glider's max gross weight. If the rope is stronger than
that, a weak link must be placed at each end of the rope and the
towplane one must be stronger but not more than 25% stronger than the
glider one.

Very different than what it sounds like you're used to.

-Tom

[Marc Ramsey]

Mal wrote:
> The weak link is normally at the tug end above the ground so its dragged
> through nothing !

Adding to what Tom said, the only place I've ever seen metal weak links,
here in the US, is at the glider end...

Marc

[Stewart Kissel]

At 01:18 25 October 2005, Btiz wrote:
>so which one is operating downwind.. the tow plane
>landing or the combined
>take off
>BT
>
Fair question-

And I must add the caveat that the runway slopes slightly
downhilll from the end that tows generally take place.

Having said that...Parowan generally has light(less
then 10 mph winds from N, W, or S)...so factoring in
the slope, either the tow takes place downhill with
a tailwind, or the towplane lands with a taillwind,
or either with a crosswind...up to 10mph.

Moving on to another of my favorite questions on this
issue...

What is the point of dropping a rope...surely not to
save money?
Anytime spent flying about during a rope drop is surely
negated by that fact ropes are dirt cheap and could
be replaced every 100 tows and still come out ahead....this
subject I sorely wish to hear more on.

[David Kinsell]

Mal wrote:
> The weak link is normally at the tug end above the ground so its dragged
> through nothing !
>
> I have seen evidence that dropping of ropes with weak links bending the weak
> link and it breaking, I made it a mini project for a few months to watch the
> practice as they would tell us they were going to drop the rope when
> refuelling. I would inspect the weak link prior and afterwards.
>
> During this time I observed from a distance a launch that was going to
> proceed if I had not stopped it were one of the weak links was broken upon
> examination the remanning link was bent and the link that broke, broke by
> bending.
>
> I have also seen the indent in a wing of a weak link breaking and hitting
> the wing after hearing the instructors birds eye view I would rather be
> towed with ropes that are not dropped.

Perhaps if you didn't put the weak link at the tug end, and then fly
low-tow routinely, the weak-link wouldn't have such a propensity for
hitting the glider? I've always found the combination of these two
procedures quite remarkable.

-Dave

[toad]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Thanks to all who wrote. None of you really answered
> my question, which was 'Can you point me to the discussion.'

But Nyal, they just prefer to point you to the discussion by recreating
the whole thread, post by post. That's how we do it on RAS.

Todd Smith
3S

[Nyal Williams]

No harm done if they ALL get back on it. Which ones
are lacking? <grin>

At 12:18 25 October 2005, Toad wrote:
>
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>> Thanks to all who wrote. None of you really answered
>> my question, which was 'Can you point me to the discussion.'
>
>But Nyal, they just prefer to point you to the discussion
>by recreating
>the whole thread, post by post. That's how we do it
>on RAS.
>
>Todd Smith
>3S
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

No harm done if they ALL get back on it. Which ones
are lacking? <grin>

At 12:18 25 October 2005, Toad wrote:
>
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>> Thanks to all who wrote. None of you really answered
>> my question, which was 'Can you point me to the discussion.'
>
>But Nyal, they just prefer to point you to the discussion
>by recreating
>the whole thread, post by post. That's how we do it
>on RAS.
>
>Todd Smith
>3S
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

At 03:06 25 October 2005, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>At 01:18 25 October 2005, Btiz wrote:
>>so which one is operating downwind.. the tow plane

>What is the point of dropping a rope...surely not
>to
>save money?
>Anytime spent flying about during a rope drop is surely
>negated by that fact ropes are dirt cheap and could
>be replaced every 100 tows and still come out ahead....this
>subject I sorely wish to hear more on.
>
Suppose the field is wide enough for three parallel
lanes with a paved runway in the middle. Suppose the
gliders are staged on the left, launch is from the
runway in the middle, and landing is on the right side
in the grass.

A tug might drop the rope at touchdown, taxi back into
position where a glider is staged with a rope already
attached and laid out. The tug could attach take out
the slightest amount of slack and be off. The ground
crew could then retrieve the dropped rope and have
it ready on the next glider before the tug got back.

That could save money and TIME, if it could be made
to work safely.

[Nyal Williams]

At 03:06 25 October 2005, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>At 01:18 25 October 2005, Btiz wrote:
>>so which one is operating downwind.. the tow plane

>What is the point of dropping a rope...surely not
>to
>save money?
>Anytime spent flying about during a rope drop is surely
>negated by that fact ropes are dirt cheap and could
>be replaced every 100 tows and still come out ahead....this
>subject I sorely wish to hear more on.
>
Suppose the field is wide enough for three parallel
lanes with a paved runway in the middle. Suppose the
gliders are staged on the left, launch is from the
runway in the middle, and landing is on the right side
in the grass.

A tug might drop the rope at touchdown, taxi back into
position where a glider is staged with a rope already
attached and laid out. The tug could attach take out
the slightest amount of slack and be off. The ground
crew could then retrieve the dropped rope and have
it ready on the next glider before the tug got back.

That could save money and TIME, if it could be made
to work safely.

[Bruce]

Standard procedure at Magalies Gliding Club.

No hard runway, lots of grass.

Tugs land and backtrack on 36L, Gliders grid and tow from 36 R
36RR is for winch launch.

Tuggie drops the rope in the flare, next to the foremost glider.
Ground crew collects it and connects the glider end, with the appropriate level
of enthusiasm.
When a contest is running, or there are lots of gliders waiting the ground crew
will have the rope attached to the glider and waiting by the time the tug is in
position. Perpetual motion.


Amazing how much you can pack into about 55m width...



Nyal Williams wrote:
> At 03:06 25 October 2005, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>>At 01:18 25 October 2005, Btiz wrote:
>>
>>>so which one is operating downwind.. the tow plane
>
>
> >What is the point of dropping a rope...surely not
>
>>to
>>save money?
>>Anytime spent flying about during a rope drop is surely
>>negated by that fact ropes are dirt cheap and could
>>be replaced every 100 tows and still come out ahead....this
>>subject I sorely wish to hear more on.
>>
>
> Suppose the field is wide enough for three parallel
> lanes with a paved runway in the middle. Suppose the
> gliders are staged on the left, launch is from the
> runway in the middle, and landing is on the right side
> in the grass.
>
> A tug might drop the rope at touchdown, taxi back into
> position where a glider is staged with a rope already
> attached and laid out. The tug could attach take out
> the slightest amount of slack and be off. The ground
> crew could then retrieve the dropped rope and have
> it ready on the next glider before the tug got back.
>
> That could save money and TIME, if it could be made
> to work safely.
>
>
>


--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.