Anyone flown with an AoA indicator?

[xerj]

Was reading an article in an Australian mag about an LED based AoA indicator
in a homebuilt. The author stated that in many ways it "replaced" the AI for
him.

Anyone have experience with them?

[[email protected]]

xerj,

Yes, but only a few times, and far better than an asi (not ai -
attitude indicator). Very easy to use and I found that pilots I flew
with were much less likely to carry too much speed on final approach, a
common cause of landing accidents. I like them a lot.

It's no wonder the Navy uses them for all landings.

All the best,
Rick

[xerj]

> Yes, but only a few times, and far better than an asi (not ai -
> attitude indicator).

Woops. Yup -- you knew what I meant.

I'd love to have a play around with one, experimenting with the various V
speeds and such. I'm sure it would be a good training device.

[[email protected]]

More than a training device, it's a true real world device in that you
don't have to adjust speeds for weight, the AOA indicator does it for
you. Simplifies life a great deal.

All the best,
Rick

[Dudley Henriques]

Used them many times. If I had to choose only one instrument to have in my
airplane it would be an AOA indicator.
In the T38 you have a choice in how to land the airplane. You can fly the
approach at 155kts plus fuel [1kt per 100lbs > 1000lbs remaining]
OR, you can fly the AOA indexer. Optimum AOA for approach in the T38 [
..6alpha on the indicator or donut on speed] will automatically produce the
right approach speed for the GW.
Works the same way in the ole' puddle jumper as well :-)
Simple!
Dudley Henriques

"xerj" > wrote in message
...
> Was reading an article in an Australian mag about an LED based AoA
> indicator in a homebuilt. The author stated that in many ways it
> "replaced" the AI for him.
>
> Anyone have experience with them?
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
.net...
> Used them many times. If I had to choose only one instrument to have in my
> airplane it would be an AOA indicator.
> In the T38 you have a choice in how to land the airplane. You can fly the
> approach at 155kts plus fuel [1kt per 100lbs > 1000lbs remaining]
> OR, you can fly the AOA indexer. Optimum AOA for approach in the T38 [
> .6alpha on the indicator or donut on speed] will automatically produce the
> right approach speed for the GW.
> Works the same way in the ole' puddle jumper as well :-)
> Simple!
> Dudley Henriques

So I gotta ask...why aren't they standard equipment?

Wouldn't it be a good thing to get another form of reference when learning
slow flilght / stalls / approach to land?

FWIW, I've flown lots of F16 hours on my PC and an AOA indexer makes the
relationship between pitch and power very easy to see and understand.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

[[email protected]]

Probably the most unique AoA indicator I ever saw was in Nebraska on a
homebuilt. Don't know what the aircraft was...open cockpit, high wing,
looked like a bathtub with wings and engine in back....and out on the
left strut attached with a pivot point was a crescent shaped piece of
painted aluminum that had its narrow edge pointed forward. There was a
90deg bend at the very top of the crescent to catch the wind not unlike
some stall indicators. On the face of the crescent, visable to the
pilot, were painted segments that read, "Not Enough - Just Right - Too
Much".
I still laugh at the simplicity of it!

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "xerj" > said:
>Was reading an article in an Australian mag about an LED based AoA indicator
>in a homebuilt. The author stated that in many ways it "replaced" the AI for
>him.
>
>Anyone have experience with them?

One of our club planes had a "Lift Reserve Indicator" (which is a
combination of angle of attack and snake-oil, I think). I never got a
chance to play with it, because most people hated it and had it ripped
out.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!"
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:E_D7f.96521$lq6.70959@fed1read01...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> .net...
>> Used them many times. If I had to choose only one instrument to have in
>> my airplane it would be an AOA indicator.
>> In the T38 you have a choice in how to land the airplane. You can fly the
>> approach at 155kts plus fuel [1kt per 100lbs > 1000lbs remaining]
>> OR, you can fly the AOA indexer. Optimum AOA for approach in the T38 [
>> .6alpha on the indicator or donut on speed] will automatically produce
>> the right approach speed for the GW.
>> Works the same way in the ole' puddle jumper as well :-)
>> Simple!
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> So I gotta ask...why aren't they standard equipment?
>
> Wouldn't it be a good thing to get another form of reference when learning
> slow flilght / stalls / approach to land?

In my opinion yes.

AOA is optional equipment for GA and I understand the airlines have done a
study on it's use in large aircraft.
Some of the airlines have integrated an AOA indicator into their MFD's as an
add on option.
The Air Force has never really been a huge fan of AOA on approach, but the
Navy uses it because their approach is backside and has to be completely
stabilized to the deck.
As far as I know, Boeing has done a study on it and submitted the results to
the airlines.
Dudley

[Bob Moore]

"Dudley Henriques" wrote

> AOA is optional equipment for GA and I understand the airlines have
> done a study on it's use in large aircraft.

Most of us joining PanAm during, or just after Vietnam, had considerable
experience flying AOA and couldn't understand why the latest jetliners
were not so equipped. It soon became obvious that ALPA and the old WWII
bomber captains that it represented wanted nothing to do with modern
technology. This group rejected CVRs, GPWS, AOA and anything else that
would have required them to be retrained.

This group of pilots are held in high esteem by almost everyone except
those of us who had to fly with them. They had received minimal training
for their B-17 or C-47 job in the Airforce and only through the strength
of the union, barely made it through the jet transition.

They still (1960's) would fly a "raw data" ILS instead of using the flight
director. Most of them had no business in a jet airplane. PanAm crashed
a large number of their B-707s due to pilot issues.

Bob Moore

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> "Dudley Henriques" wrote
>
>> AOA is optional equipment for GA and I understand the airlines have
>> done a study on it's use in large aircraft.
>
> Most of us joining PanAm during, or just after Vietnam, had considerable
> experience flying AOA and couldn't understand why the latest jetliners
> were not so equipped. It soon became obvious that ALPA and the old WWII
> bomber captains that it represented wanted nothing to do with modern
> technology. This group rejected CVRs, GPWS, AOA and anything else that
> would have required them to be retrained.
>
> This group of pilots are held in high esteem by almost everyone except
> those of us who had to fly with them. They had received minimal training
> for their B-17 or C-47 job in the Airforce and only through the strength
> of the union, barely made it through the jet transition.
>
> They still (1960's) would fly a "raw data" ILS instead of using the flight
> director. Most of them had no business in a jet airplane. PanAm crashed
> a large number of their B-707s due to pilot issues.
>
> Bob Moore

That's interesting. I know it's hard sometimes to wean pilots off those
steam gauges and into new technology. What was it one guy said the first
time he used an MFD? "Now I know how my dog feels watching TV" :-)

On raw data and the FD; It would seem prudent to me to have the guy flying
the approach on the FD with the other seat monitoring the raw data. I know
the one time I landed a DC8, (just a guest of the chief pilot of the airline
on a ferry flight into Alaska ) this was the procedure we used.
My understanding on AOA for you heavy drivers is that you actually have
preferred using a calculated approach speed for the GW rather than AOA
because the configurations and the weights vary so much.
I've seen a fairly recent report from Boeing discussing AOA with the majors,
but as of now, I think it's still VERY optional, and the MFD with AOA on a
side bar has to be specially ordered during the pre-sale spec meetings
between the line main office and Boeing.
Don't know about Airbus. Haven't heard anything there at all.
Dudley

[Bob Gardner]

Yes. 20-series Lears.

Bob Gardner

"xerj" > wrote in message
...
> Was reading an article in an Australian mag about an LED based AoA
> indicator in a homebuilt. The author stated that in many ways it
> "replaced" the AI for him.
>
> Anyone have experience with them?
>

[Bob Moore]

"Dudley Henriques" wrote
> My understanding on AOA for you heavy drivers is that you actually
> have preferred using a calculated approach speed for the GW rather
> than AOA because the configurations and the weights vary so much.

That was the beauty of the AOA system that I flew for two years in
the Navy P-3. Each flap setting was fed into the AOA computer and
the GW is automatically acounted for as a function of AOA.
No thought or computation required for the flightcrew. AOA *IS*
airspeed properly adjusted for all of the variables, or I should say
that airspeedd is a not very good approximation of the AOA that one
should be flying.

Those "old farts" would not relenquish ANY of their authority to a
copilot or a machine. Thank god for CRM, GPWS and TCAS.

Bob Moore

[Dudley Henriques]

I'm with you on the value of AOA. For every optimum airspeed there's an AOA
for that airspeed. In my opinion,it's the WAY to fly.
I know a lot of the old guard had big issues with the glass cockpits as they
began to interface into the systems and cockpit management program.
I guess it's that way most of the time really. Some pilots transition with
no problems at all, and some hang on to the old ways like their fingers were
inches away from letting go of the edge of a cliff :-)
I always liked technology and adapted to it fairly easily. Of course in the
old military fast props I was pushing around most of the time I was lucky if
even the steam gauges were all working at one time :-)
We had a twin Beech with a Collins FD109 in it. I think that was about your
period of director too.
I loved that damn thing!!! :-)
Were you in P3's down at Pax per chance? I did some flying down there at TPS
and Strike when Tex Birdwell was the CO at the school and Tom Flannery was
there. Admiral Brown was the base CO back then. The P3's were something to
dodge in the pattern :-))))
Great people at Pax; some of the most talented people I ever met in
aviation.
Dudley Henriques


"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> "Dudley Henriques" wrote
>> My understanding on AOA for you heavy drivers is that you actually
>> have preferred using a calculated approach speed for the GW rather
>> than AOA because the configurations and the weights vary so much.
>
> That was the beauty of the AOA system that I flew for two years in
> the Navy P-3. Each flap setting was fed into the AOA computer and
> the GW is automatically acounted for as a function of AOA.
> No thought or computation required for the flightcrew. AOA *IS*
> airspeed properly adjusted for all of the variables, or I should say
> that airspeedd is a not very good approximation of the AOA that one
> should be flying.
>
> Those "old farts" would not relenquish ANY of their authority to a
> copilot or a machine. Thank god for CRM, GPWS and TCAS.
>
> Bob Moore
>
>
>

[Bob Moore]

"Dudley Henriques" wrote
> Were you in P3's down at Pax per chance? I did some flying down there
> at TPS and Strike when Tex Birdwell was the CO at the school and Tom
> Flannery was there. Admiral Brown was the base CO back then. The P3's
> were something to dodge in the pattern :-))))

Nope! Okinawa, Philippines, and Thailand. And of course...Vietnam.

Bob Moore

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> "Dudley Henriques" wrote
>> Were you in P3's down at Pax per chance? I did some flying down there
>> at TPS and Strike when Tex Birdwell was the CO at the school and Tom
>> Flannery was there. Admiral Brown was the base CO back then. The P3's
>> were something to dodge in the pattern :-))))
>
> Nope! Okinawa, Philippines, and Thailand. And of course...Vietnam.
>
> Bob Moore

Ah, the sunny tropics. :-))

Speaking of the tropics; I hope the weather down there in Fla. missed you.
Our daughter is above you in Ormond Beach.
Take care, and all the best,
D

[Darrell S]

xerj wrote:
> Was reading an article in an Australian mag about an LED based AoA
> indicator in a homebuilt. The author stated that in many ways it
> "replaced" the AI for him.
>
> Anyone have experience with them?

In the B-58 we used the angle of attack indicator for primary speed
reference on approach and landing. We computed the correct indicated speed
for approach as a back up reference. The "green doughnut" on-speed
indicator was set for a 12.5° angle of attack.

--

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-