Moving up to a Baron

[super90]

I will fully admit that I have several steps to go, so I don't want it to sound as if I think this is something I will accomplish soon. Rather, I am trying to identify the best path.

A little back ground...

I am 36 years old and grew up at the airport mainly around sailplanes. I soloed at 14, and got my private glider license at 16. I have about 100 hrs of sailplane time. Went to college and did very little flying after that time. Last year I picked up my SEL private and I have about 150 hrs of "airplane" (power) time. 250 TT. I recently finished my instrument rating. I have about 55 hrs Complex time in an Arrow and about 100 hrs. in 172's.

Here is where things get interesting. My father has an A36 and I was working towards flying that and I thought we were getting to where we could see the "light at the end of the tunnel". He has about 2,500 hrs. and has just decided he wants to move up to a 58 Baron. I see "the light" dimming and fading out.

Insurance drives a great deal of this, but, of course, practicality and safety are even more important.

What is the next thing to do? Should I fly the Mooney at the local flight school and just build complex time? Or, should I get my MEL and try and build multi time? Why does it seem it might be easier to rent the local Cougar or Travelair than it is to get covered in a Baron owned by a family member ?

Yes, any experience is good, but what are some of the best options as far as the next step?

Any thoughts appreciated.

RC

[Kobra]

If I had a father who was buying a Baron...I'd get the multi-engine rating
right away. Time in the Arrow will not get you a high-performance
endorsement. Kill three birds with one stone. The Baron will get you a
multi-engine rating and complex time and a high performance endorsement.
You will also be ready to fly that twin when the time comes.

Now all this is assuming you can justify the massive increase in fuel burn
and multiplying that times 2, the increase engine amortization and
multiplying that by 2 and the insurance increase (not sure what that is). I
would also assume that you'd have to kick in a small maintenance
amortization per hour too. No?!?

Kobra

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-31, super90 > wrote:
> Insurance drives a great deal of this, but, of course, practicality
> and safety are even more important.

You'll also need to build serious time, too. In my limited experience of
multi engine airplanes and insurance, you'll need *at least* 500TT to be
insurable on a multi at any price (and a good proportion of these hours
should be in something high performance AND complex - i.e. the newer
Mooneys or a Bonanza). Plus some multi time too (you'll probably need at
least 25 in type before you're insurable at any price - of course, you
can do this in the Baron with an MEI).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[super90]

I should clarify a bit. Currently, we live in different cities, so I won't have access to the airplane for a year or so. That's why I am trying to figure out "the path".

From that standpoint, I guess the MEL rating would be good and then build time in the local Cougar or Travelair. Seems like the name of the game will be "multi" hours. There are just not hardly any well equiped twins in the area. They are all run-out trainers.

Thanks,

RC

[Jose]

> I should clarify a bit. Currently, we live in different cities, so I
> won't have access to the airplane for a year or so. That's why I am
> trying to figure out "the path".

For the money you'd spend getting competent and insurable in a twin,
maybe "the path" is to take that money and buy your own single.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[BTIZ]

most multi engine "training" aircraft will not get you the high performance
endorsement..
unless there is a loop hole to add up the combined engine horsepower.
Seminoles, Beech Duchess, Twin Comanche and most Seneca's have 200 or less
per side.

Sounds like dad is trying to stay one step ahead of what you are qualified
to fly.

BT

"Kobra" > wrote in message
...
> If I had a father who was buying a Baron...I'd get the multi-engine rating
> right away. Time in the Arrow will not get you a high-performance
> endorsement. Kill three birds with one stone. The Baron will get you a
> multi-engine rating and complex time and a high performance endorsement.
> You will also be ready to fly that twin when the time comes.
>
> Now all this is assuming you can justify the massive increase in fuel burn
> and multiplying that times 2, the increase engine amortization and
> multiplying that by 2 and the insurance increase (not sure what that is).
> I would also assume that you'd have to kick in a small maintenance
> amortization per hour too. No?!?
>
> Kobra
>

[super90]

Jose,

I thinking you might be right. A thought that came up today was to find a good, well cared for 35 or 33 Bonanza with some sort of relatively modern avionics and find a partner in it. Nothing too fancy, just a good servicable machine with a full IFR panel in it and some sort of IFR cert. GPS.

Like you say, the numbers might be advantageous that route. I have been spending $2,500 to $3,000 a month working on the instrument rating and building time. Of course, that included instructor time, and I was flying two and three days a week.

Also seems that working on a Commercial would help the insurance too.

Still brainstorming, but you fellows have some good ideas. That's why I asked in the first place!!

Thanks,

RC

[Sylvain]

super90 wrote:
> Also seems that working on a Commercial would help the insurance too.

well, I got a discount with my renter insurance when I got
the instrument rating, but the commercial certificate didn't
make a difference in their opinion...

--Sylvain

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Sylvain wrote:
> super90 wrote:
>> Also seems that working on a Commercial would help the insurance too.
>
> well, I got a discount with my renter insurance when I got
> the instrument rating, but the commercial certificate didn't
> make a difference in their opinion...


Passengers like it though...



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Jim Burns]

When insuring our Aztec, we found very few underwriters (3 if I remember
right) willing to insure "transition twin pilots" i.e. transitioning into
a twin. Our lowest time/rated partner (the one the insurance is primarily
based on) had less than 500 hours, is PPL and IR. We all did our multi
training just before purchasing the Aztec, so we all had very low twin time.
Myself and one other partner are Commercial and IR, I'm a CFII and he's also
ASES. Only our PPL partner was required to fly 25 hours with an MEI before
solo in the Aztec. We were told (right or wrong) that our Commercial certs
and other ratings helped our cause. Our broker told us more underwriters
were interested and we got more quotes because of it.

Maybe he was just blowing smoke up our butt, but if it's true, then this is
what I would concentrate on:

Get your commercial certificate and build your time above 500 hours, then
get your multi rating. If you get your multi first and you save your money
for hours of twin flying, the hour building will slow dramatically. Your
best investment will be to build your time in a single, it will save you
some serious insurance premium bucks when you move into the Baron.

YMMV
Jim

[[email protected]]

Most ambitious plan, grasshopper...

Insurance co.'s are concerned with total time and multi time especially
when insuring a pilot in a hot twin like a Baron. Any multi time
whether HP or not is good, although a pilot with a new multi rating
would probably have to fly X number of hours dual in the Baron before
solo. Probably the best course would be (I think someone else mentioned
this) to get the IFR rating (the CPL wouldn't hurt either) and build HP
complex time if possible, then get the multi rating. Once you have that
you could fly right seat w/Dad and log that time as PIC.

[Mike Rapoport]

"super90" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jose,
>
> I thinking you might be right. A thought that came up today was to
> find a good, well cared for 35 or 33 Bonanza with some sort of
> relatively modern avionics and find a partner in it. Nothing too
> fancy, just a good servicable machine with a full IFR panel in it and
> some sort of IFR cert. GPS.
>
> Like you say, the numbers might be advantageous that route. I have
> been spending $2,500 to $3,000 a month working on the instrument rating
> and building time. Of course, that included instructor time, and I was
> flying two and three days a week.
>
> Also seems that working on a Commercial would help the insurance too.
>
> Still brainstorming, but you fellows have some good ideas. That's why
> I asked in the first place!!
>
> Thanks,
>
> RC
>
>
> --
> super90

As others have said, a commercial certificate won't affect your insurance
rates but it might make it possible to get quotes from companies that won't
quote a private pilot in a particular airplane. As the airplanes get more
sofisticated, insurance companies start to expect that you will have more
advanced ratings.

Mike
MU-2

[Marco Leon]

I'm a bit confused as to what your ultimate flying profile will look like
when your father purchases the Baron. Are you planning on using the Baron as
your main or only aircraft? If you live in different cities, it seems a bit
inconvenient for that situation. If you want to fly the Baron once in a
while, then your clear answer (as others have suggested) is to
purchase/partner in a complex/high performance aircraft at your home
airport. Once you get to 500hrs--or close to it-- and a Commercial rating,
then rent a trainer-twin (e.g. Seminole) to build up the minimum MEL time.
The insurance rates should be more reasonable for the Baron by then. If you
do decide to use the Baron as your main AC, then it should be easy enough to
sell the single or your share of it once your situation changes.

Marco Leon


"super90" > wrote in message
...
>
> I will fully admit that I have several steps to go, so I don't want it
> to sound as if I think this is something I will accomplish soon.
> Rather, I am trying to identify the best path.
>
> A little back ground...
>
> I am 36 years old and grew up at the airport mainly around sailplanes.
> I soloed at 14, and got my private glider license at 16. I have about
> 100 hrs of sailplane time. Went to college and did very little flying
> after that time. Last year I picked up my SEL private and I have about
> 150 hrs of "airplane" (power) time. 250 TT. I recently finished my
> instrument rating. I have about 55 hrs Complex time in an Arrow and
> about 100 hrs. in 172's.
>
> Here is where things get interesting. My father has an A36 and I was
> working towards flying that and I thought we were getting to where we
> could see the "light at the end of the tunnel". He has about 2,500
> hrs. and has just decided he wants to move up to a 58 Baron. I see
> "the light" dimming and fading out.
>
> Insurance drives a great deal of this, but, of course, practicality
> and safety are even more important.
>
> What is the next thing to do? Should I fly the Mooney at the local
> flight school and just build complex time? Or, should I get my MEL
> and try and build multi time? Why does it seem it might be easier to
> rent the local Cougar or Travelair than it is to get covered in a Baron
> owned by a family member ?
>
> Yes, any experience is good, but what are some of the best options as
> far as the next step?
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> RC
>
>
> --
> super90



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[super90]

We'll be living in the same city here in the next couple of years, so then, I'll being making an effort to move into the Baron. In the mean time, I think you fellows have given some good advise. I am going to try and find someone to split a 33 or 35 model Bonanza and get the Commercial and build some more time.

Same think happened when we were racing Sailplanes. The more I progressed the fancier ship he bought. Always was one or two steps ahead and tons of time futher down the road!

Thanks again,

RC



[QUOTE=Marco Leon]I'm a bit confused as to what your ultimate flying profile will look like
when your father purchases the Baron. Are you planning on using the Baron as
your main or only aircraft? If you live in different cities, it seems a bit
inconvenient for that situation. If you want to fly the Baron once in a
while, then your clear answer (as others have suggested) is to
purchase/partner in a complex/high performance aircraft at your home
airport. Once you get to 500hrs--or close to it-- and a Commercial rating,
then rent a trainer-twin (e.g. Seminole) to build up the minimum MEL time.
The insurance rates should be more reasonable for the Baron by then. If you
do decide to use the Baron as your main AC, then it should be easy enough to
sell the single or your share of it once your situation changes.

Marco Leon

[john smith]

> Same think happened when we were racing Sailplanes. The more I
> progressed the fancier ship he bought. Always was one or two steps
> ahead and tons of time futher down the road!

It sounds as though there is a competition between father and son.

[Doug]

If your father does not have a taildragger signoff, get a taildragger.
You will be one up on him. Even if he does have the taildragger
signoff, you will be one up on him. Heck, want elite? Get a taildragger
TWIN. Or maybe a Seaplane. Or a taildragger/seaplane (that is what I
have -- Husky with amphibs). Beat THAT with a knife fork and spoon!

[George Patterson]

Doug wrote:
> If your father does not have a taildragger signoff, get a taildragger.
> You will be one up on him. Even if he does have the taildragger
> signoff, you will be one up on him. Heck, want elite? Get a taildragger
> TWIN.

Want to really top him out? Get a Beech 18.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Darrel Toepfer]

George Patterson wrote:
> Doug wrote:
>
>> If your father does not have a taildragger signoff, get a taildragger.
>> You will be one up on him. Even if he does have the taildragger
>> signoff, you will be one up on him. Heck, want elite? Get a taildragger
>> TWIN.
>
> Want to really top him out? Get a Beech 18.

On floats...

[[email protected]]

>> If your father does not have a taildragger signoff, get a taildragger.
>> You will be one up on him. Even if he does have the taildragger
>> signoff, you will be one up on him. Heck, want elite? Get a taildragger
>> TWIN.


> Want to really top him out? Get a Beech 18.

>On floats... <

powered by PT6A turboprops...

[Doug]

For the ultimate in one-upmanship and cool. Get a Beech 18 ON FLOATS!!

[super90]

For the ultimate in one-upmanship and cool. Get a Beech 18 ON FLOATS!!


He already has a tailwheel endorsement, of course. He got it to flying tow planes ages ago.

As for the Beech 18, we both love that airplane and even talk about how great it would be to have that old twin with the big radials on it.

I would be all for getting a multi seaplane rating !

So many airplanes, so little time and money.

Where I am one up on him is in running panel mounted GPS systems. I can run a KLN94 and load a flight plan with the DP and STAR so fast he doesn't even know what happened. That's one thing that will be in the next airplane; a Garmin 530 with all the bells and whistles. We'll both have to get up to speed on that.

I got started on the Commercial rating this week. Won't take too long to finish it off. After having taking the instrument written recently, studying for the commercial written seems to be going pretty fast.

Thanks,

R.

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> powered by PT6A turboprops...

Why do you want to ruin that aircraft? Give me the round engines.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Montblack]

("super90" wrote)
[snip]
> As for the Beech 18, we both love that airplane and even talk about how
> great it would be to have that old twin with the big radials on it.
>
> I would be all for getting a multi seaplane rating !
>
> So many airplanes, so little time and money.


For some :-)

<http://www.siliconbeat.com/entries/2005/09/09/my_jets_pretty_big_how_big_is_yours.html>
"My jet's pretty big, how big is yours?"


Montblack

[Doug Carter]

On 2005-10-31, super90 > wrote:
> Here is where things get interesting. My father has an A36 and I was
> working towards flying that and I thought we were getting to where we
> could see the "light at the end of the tunnel". He has about 2,500
> hrs. and has just decided he wants to move up to a 58 Baron. I see
> "the light" dimming and fading out.

I heard somewhere that you had to have something like 200 hours make and
model to even get considered for insurance in a Baron.
--
Doug Carter

[Bill Zaleski]

I have trained 2 students who only required 30 hours in make and
model.

On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 03:08:16 GMT, Doug Carter
> wrote:

>On 2005-10-31, super90 > wrote:
>> Here is where things get interesting. My father has an A36 and I was
>> working towards flying that and I thought we were getting to where we
>> could see the "light at the end of the tunnel". He has about 2,500
>> hrs. and has just decided he wants to move up to a 58 Baron. I see
>> "the light" dimming and fading out.
>
>I heard somewhere that you had to have something like 200 hours make and
>model to even get considered for insurance in a Baron.