Potential Class B Bust

[Charlie45]

Yesterday I was out flying Acro with my instructor and allegedly we violated Class B airspace.

We were doing three series sequences at 3000 and the Class B floor where we were was at 4000. The seqeunce consisted of a "Sharks Tooth" to an "Immelman" followed by a "Spin".

Upon completion of the Sharks Tooth I began to setup for the Immelman. I started the brisk pull-up and noticed a jet flying above me at a distance of approximately 1000-1500 ft away. After completing the manuever, I glanced back to my 6-7 O'clock and saw the jet pass by at an altitude still slightly above us. This is key, because I am 99% certain the jet (later on learned it was a G4) was above me. We proceeded back home and after calling regional approach we are given a phone number and instructed to call once back on the ground.

My instructor, who by the way is an airshow veteran and has over 24,000 hours under his belt was also certain that we were not above the jet.

We headed over to a local restaurant and called the number. I initially spoke with the controller. Apparently the jet had called us in and and he was flying at 4000ft. The controller said that the jet's TCAS reported us exactly at 4000 and so did the controllers mode C. I tried to explain to the controller that we were certainly beneath the jet and given the performance of our aircraft (8KCAB Super Decathlon) it would not have been possible for us to be above him given the manuveurs were doing and given our entry altitudes. I handed the phone over to my instructor and he discussed with the controller for about 10 minutes. The controller got all my information and said that I would be receiving a call or a letter in the near future.

I am really concerned about the whole situation and am wondering what the consequences of this incident could be. Given that I was receiving dual at the time, who is liable? Also, I truly have a very hard time believing that we were at 4000. However given that he reported us at 4000 and not 4100 or above, technically if we were in class B, then we would have only violated it by 1ft. This is obviously a very fine line and there must be some slight discrepancies in the accuracy of Mode C altitude encoding capability.

I am not one who does not respect the rules of the FAA and am cognizant of the importance of Class B and the lives put in jeopardy if class B airspace is violated. If I would have been flying the manuveurs on my own, there is no way I would have felt comfortable flying beneath the class B shelf and normally if I am without my instructor I head out much farther where I have more room to execute the manuveurs. However, given that I was instructed to fly the manuveurs there and given that I relied upon his experience and knowledge, I felt comfortable.

Anyone with any experience in such a situation? What could realistically happen? What could the worst case scenario be? Am I a liable or is my flight instructor liable?

[Garner Miller]

In article >, Charlie45
> wrote:

>
Yesterday I was out flying Acro with my instructor and allegedly we
violated
> Class B airspace.
> What could the worst case scenario be? Am I a
liable or is my flight
> instructor liable?

Best-case is the controller just drops it. Worst case scenario is that
you're found in violation of the Class B, and receive disciplinary
action.

You should IMMEDIATELY send in an Aviation Safety Reporting System
report. If you're not familiar, it's a program administered by NASA,
and will protect you from disciplinary action, assuming you haven't had
any violations in the past five years.

You'll still have the violation if that's what becomes of this, but you
won't be subject to the disciplinary action, such as license
suspension.

Here's the form to fill out, which must be submitted within 10 days of
the event:
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/forms/PDF_Files/general.pdf

Here's more on the program and what it does:
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview_nf.htm

FAA Advisory Circular 00-46D gives the FAA's take on the program (I
hope this link works):
<http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCir
cular.nsf/0/64358057433FE192862569E7006DA716?OpenDocument>


Here's the relevant paragraph (#9) from that AC:

c. The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or
occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR
is considered by FAA to be indicative of a constructive attitude.
Such an attitude will tend to prevent Mure violations. Accordingly,
although a tiding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor
certificate suspension will be imposed if
(1) the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;.
(2) the violation did not involve a criminal offense,& accident, or
action under 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 which discloses a lack of
qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded
from this policy;
(3) the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action
to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any
regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years
prior to the date of occurrence; and
(4) the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or
she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident
or occurrence to NASA under ASRS. See paragraphs SC and 7b.

Hope that helps.

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

[[email protected]]

Also, your allowed 125 foot descrepancy with your altimeter and encoder.
Your altimeter may have read 3900 feet and your encoder indicated 4000 ft.
You were probably not in class b if your encoder was reporting 4000ft.
Most encoders click off the next altitude anywhere from 75 to 50 feet
before reaching that altitude, ie 3950 on altimeter and 4000 being
reported by the encoder.
Again, your allowed by the FARs to have a 125 ft difference between the
encoder and altimeter.

Hope this helps

Dave

Garner Miller wrote:
> In article >, Charlie45
> > wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday I was out flying Acro with my instructor and allegedly we
> violated
>
>>Class B airspace.
>>What could the worst case scenario be? Am I a
>
> liable or is my flight
>
>>instructor liable?
>
>
> Best-case is the controller just drops it. Worst case scenario is that
> you're found in violation of the Class B, and receive disciplinary
> action.
>
> You should IMMEDIATELY send in an Aviation Safety Reporting System
> report. If you're not familiar, it's a program administered by NASA,
> and will protect you from disciplinary action, assuming you haven't had
> any violations in the past five years.
>
> You'll still have the violation if that's what becomes of this, but you
> won't be subject to the disciplinary action, such as license
> suspension.
>
> Here's the form to fill out, which must be submitted within 10 days of
> the event:
> http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/forms/PDF_Files/general.pdf
>
> Here's more on the program and what it does:
> http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview_nf.htm
>
> FAA Advisory Circular 00-46D gives the FAA's take on the program (I
> hope this link works):
> <http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCir
> cular.nsf/0/64358057433FE192862569E7006DA716?OpenDocument>
>
>
> Here's the relevant paragraph (#9) from that AC:
>
> c. The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or
> occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR
> is considered by FAA to be indicative of a constructive attitude.
> Such an attitude will tend to prevent Mure violations. Accordingly,
> although a tiding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor
> certificate suspension will be imposed if
> (1) the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;.
> (2) the violation did not involve a criminal offense,& accident, or
> action under 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 which discloses a lack of
> qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded
> from this policy;
> (3) the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action
> to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any
> regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years
> prior to the date of occurrence; and
> (4) the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or
> she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident
> or occurrence to NASA under ASRS. See paragraphs SC and 7b.
>
> Hope that helps.
>

[awsummerfield]

What could realistically happen? What could the worst case scenario be? Am I a liable or is my flight instructor liable?The worst would be disciplinary action, certificate suspension, etc. But realistically, as a student, you would be given additional training. Your CFI, if he was acting as PIC (he had valid medical, license, etc) would be liable for any FAA actions. If you were acting as PIC because your CFI did NOT have the medical, then you may be considered as PIC, and would then be liable.

As a former DPE, I've seen a few of these actions in the past. The FAA usually will be satisfied with the PIC taking remedial training. But in the future, I would not talk to the FAA without first consulting an aviation attorney. And as another poster said, fill out a NASA report immediately!

[Charlie45]

The worst would be disciplinary action, certificate suspension, etc. But realistically, as a student, you would be given additional training. Your CFI, if he was acting as PIC (he had valid medical, license, etc) would be liable for any FAA actions. If you were acting as PIC because your CFI did NOT have the medical, then you may be considered as PIC, and would then be liable.

As a former DPE, I've seen a few of these actions in the past. The FAA usually will be satisfied with the PIC taking remedial training. But in the future, I would not talk to the FAA without first consulting an aviation attorney. And as another poster said, fill out a NASA report immediately!


Thank you guys for the prompt feedback. I will file the form and keep you all posted how all of this pans out. Thanks.

[Charlie45]

So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and see what happens from there...

[Brian Whatcott]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:17:39 +0000, Charlie45
> wrote:

>
>Yesterday I was out flying Acro with my instructor and allegedly we
>violated Class B airspace.
>
>We were doing three series sequences at 3000 and the Class B floor
>where we were was at 4000. The seqeunce consisted of a "Sharks Tooth"
>to an "Immelman" followed by a "Spin".
>
>Upon completion of the Sharks Tooth I began to setup for the Immelman.
>I started the brisk pull-up and noticed a jet flying above me at a
>distance of approximately 1000-1500 ft away. After completing the
>manuever, I glanced back to my 6-7 O'clock and saw the jet pass by at
>an altitude still slightly above us. This is key, because I am 99%
>certain the jet (later on learned it was a G4) was above me. We
>proceeded back home and after calling regional approach we are given a
>phone number and instructed to call once back on the ground.
>
>My instructor, who by the way is an airshow veteran and has over 24,000
>hours under his belt was also certain that we were not above the jet.
>
>We headed over to a local restaurant and called the number. I initially
>spoke with the controller. Apparently the jet had called us in and and
>he was flying at 4000ft. The controller said that the jet's TCAS
>reported us exactly at 4000 and so did the controllers mode C. I tried
>to explain to the controller that we were certainly beneath the jet and
>given the performance of our aircraft (8KCAB Super Decathlon) it would
>not have been possible for us to be above him given the manuveurs were
>doing and given our entry altitudes. I handed the phone over to my
>instructor and he discussed with the controller for about 10 minutes.
>The controller got all my information and said that I would be
>receiving a call or a letter in the near future.
>
>I am really concerned about the whole situation and am wondering what
>the consequences of this incident could be. Given that I was receiving
>dual at the time, who is liable? Also, I truly have a very hard time
>believing that we were at 4000. However given that he reported us at
>4000 and not 4100 or above, technically if we were in class B, then we
>would have only violated it by 1ft. This is obviously a very fine line
>and there must be some slight discrepancies in the accuracy of Mode C
>altitude encoding capability.
>
>I am not one who does not respect the rules of the FAA and am cognizant
>of the importance of Class B and the lives put in jeopardy if class B
>airspace is violated. If I would have been flying the manuveurs on my
>own, there is no way I would have felt comfortable flying beneath the
>class B shelf and normally if I am without my instructor I head out
>much farther where I have more room to execute the manuveurs. However,
>given that I was instructed to fly the manuveurs there and given that I
>relied upon his experience and knowledge, I felt comfortable.
>
>Anyone with any experience in such a situation? What could
>realistically happen? What could the worst case scenario be? Am I a
>liable or is my flight instructor liable?

Aerobatics in proximity to controlled traffic is not good.
Preoccupation is what gets crews flying into iron clouds.
Your instructor collects more approbation than you it seems.
But disclosing in public also shows a positive safety attitude.

If they shoot you, the remaining troops will presumably be
encouraged to sin no more - to mangle Napoleon's sentiment.

Was there no radio link that could have alerted the controlled
traffic, I wonder? Was there no place else to practice?

All the same, I think they will treat you gently.

Good Luck

Brian

[Chris G.]

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Be sure to contact AOPA's Legal Services folks if you purchased the
coverage ($26/yr is cheap for a PP!) and get them involved! They will
make sure you are headed in the right direction. If you have not
purchased that coverage, then don't call them for this incident, but
purchase it for next time!

Also, Fill out that ASRS! I've actually taken to the practice of
keeping 1-2 forms in my flight bag, just in case.

Chris


Charlie45 wrote:
> awsummerfield Wrote:
>
>>The worst would be disciplinary action, certificate suspension, etc.
>>But realistically, as a student, you would be given additional
>>training. Your CFI, if he was acting as PIC (he had valid medical,
>>license, etc) would be liable for any FAA actions. If you were acting
>>as PIC because your CFI did NOT have the medical, then you may be
>>considered as PIC, and would then be liable.
>>
>>As a former DPE, I've seen a few of these actions in the past. The FAA
>>usually will be satisfied with the PIC taking remedial training. But in
>>the future, I would not talk to the FAA without first consulting an
>>aviation attorney. And as another poster said, fill out a NASA report
>>immediately!
>
>
>
> Thank you guys for the prompt feedback. I will file the form and keep
> you all posted how all of this pans out. Thanks.
>
>
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[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Charlie45 > wrote:

> So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
> filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
> that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
> prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
> thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
> were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
> see what happens from there...

BAD ADVICE! File the report and keep the slip, as you have only 10 days
to file and receive immunity. ASRS maintains strict confidentiality, so
filing the report will not affect guilt or innocence.

If you receive the letter from FAA, you can respond that you filed the
ASRS report and, at worst, use that fact to "get out of jail for free."

If you wait for the letter, you cannot receive immunity, if it takes
more than 10 days from the event.

[Stubby]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article >,
> Charlie45 > wrote:
>
>
>>So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
>>filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
>>that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
>>prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
>>thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
>>were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
>>see what happens from there...
>
>
> BAD ADVICE! File the report and keep the slip, as you have only 10 days
> to file and receive immunity. ASRS maintains strict confidentiality, so
> filing the report will not affect guilt or innocence.
>
> If you receive the letter from FAA, you can respond that you filed the
> ASRS report and, at worst, use that fact to "get out of jail for free."
>
> If you wait for the letter, you cannot receive immunity, if it takes
> more than 10 days from the event.

Also, I believe the act of filing an ASRS report cannot be used as a
basis for prosecuting you. Thus, the safety value of the report exceeds
the penal value.

[Ron Natalie]

Charlie45 wrote:
> So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
> filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
> that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
> prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
> thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
> were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
> see what happens from there...
>
>
Does this so-called aviation attorney actually have an aviation
practice? This advice is ludircous for a number of reasons.

1. The ASRS reports, barring a few exceptions like accidents
occurring, can NOT be used for enforcement procedures.

2. The FAA won't even find out you've filed one unless you
tell them.

3. I'm not sure why you are admitting more if you wait until
the FAA comes after you than if you file now...

and FINALLY:

Persuant to AC00-46D, you only have 10 days from the date of the
incident to file the report in order to EVER use it as your FAA
"get out of jail free" card.

Are you sure he didn't mean for you to file and not TELL the
FAA you had filed one until they start the enforcement?

[Dave Stadt]

"Charlie45" > wrote in message
...
>
> So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
> filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
> that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
> prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
> thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
> were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
> see what happens from there...
>
>
> --
> Charlie45

What everybody else said. Your attorney is giving horrible advice and
obviously knows absolutely nothing about the NASA reports.

[Charlie45]

[/color]
Does this so-called aviation attorney actually have an aviation
practice? This advice is ludircous for a number of reasons.

1. The ASRS reports, barring a few exceptions like accidents
occurring, can NOT be used for enforcement procedures.

2. The FAA won't even find out you've filed one unless you
tell them.

3. I'm not sure why you are admitting more if you wait until
the FAA comes after you than if you file now...

and FINALLY:

Persuant to AC00-46D, you only have 10 days from the date of the
incident to file the report in order to EVER use it as your FAA
"get out of jail free" card.

Are you sure he didn't mean for you to file and not TELL the
FAA you had filed one until they start the enforcement?[/QUOTE]


I spoke with another Attorney in the meantime and he said that I should promptly file the NASA report. He also said that the FAA would not find about the filing unless it was something serious (e.g. aircraft accident).

[Chris G.]

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I think I would tend to agree with the others in the NG regarding the
ASRS form and get a second opinion, but quickly. Here is the text
directly from AC 00-46D, paragraph 9:

"c. The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or
occurrence involving a violation of
49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR is considered by FAA to be indicative
of a constructive attitude.
Such an attitude will tend to prevent Mure violations. Accordingly,
although a tiding of violation
may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be
imposed if
(1) the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;.
(2) the violation did not involve a criminal offense,& accident, or
action under 49 U.S.C.
Section 44709 which discloses a lack of qualification or competency,
which is wholly excluded
from this policy;
(3) the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to
have committed a
violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there
for a period of 5 years
prior to the date of occurrence; and
(4) the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or
she completed and
delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to
NASA under ASRS. See
paragraphs SC and 7b.
N&e: Paragraph 9 does not apply to air traffk controllers. Provisions
concerning air traffic
controllers involved in incidents reported under ASRS are addressed in
FAA Order 7210.3.G, Facility
Operations and Administration."

Charlie45 wrote:
> So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
> filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
> that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
> prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
> thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
> were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
> see what happens from there...
>
>
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[Brian Whatcott]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 16:08:37 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>
>"Charlie45" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
>> filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
>> that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
>> prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
>> thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
>> were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
>> see what happens from there...
>>
>>
>> --
>> Charlie45
>
>What everybody else said. Your attorney is giving horrible advice and
>obviously knows absolutely nothing about the NASA reports.
>
He is however, advising very much in standard attorney-style. Which is
- to admit nothing. to apologize to nobody.

They are a baleful influence on business, sports and public life in
general, no doubt.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

[Andrew Koenig]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...

> Are you sure he didn't mean for you to file and not TELL the
> FAA you had filed one until they start the enforcement?

I would think that you shouldn't tell them until they *finish* the
enforcement proceedings. After all, they might decide they can't prove you
did anything wrong (because of altimeter inaccuracy), or they might not
impose a penalty, and so on.

I've always heard that you should file the report, then let whatever happens
happen, and *finally*, if they say that they want to pull your certificate
or fine you, *then* you pull out your ASRS receipt and say "Sorry, I'm off
the hook."

I would think, by the way, that your instructor should file a separate ASRS
report.