TSA

[Ash Wyllie]

An interesting article in the Washingtom Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101291.html

-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Larry Dighera]

On 2 Nov 2005 6:35:34 -0500, "Ash Wyllie" > wrote in
>::

>
>An interesting article in the Washingtom Post.
>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101291.html


To operate at any point in this zone, pilots must go through
unique and elaborate procedures. They must file a flight plan
before entering the ADIZ and must do so by telephone, often having
to wait 10 or 20 minutes on hold rather than just spending a
minute or two to file the plan via computer.

Once in the airplane, pilots must contact a controller for a code
to identify their airplane on radar -- and must often guess the
frequency on which to reach the controller, since it changes. If
the flight plan has been lost in the system, as often occurs, they
may have to land at an airport outside the ADIZ and start over
again. If radio congestion means they can't reach a controller,
they must circle outside the ADIZ border, avoiding other pilots in
the same predicament.

These might seem trivial burdens if they made sense for security,
but they don't. The ADIZ plan displays that special combination of
other early, panicky post-Sept. 11 moves: It doesn't hinder
terrorists, but it complicates life for everyone else. What mainly
stops terrorists from using small aircraft is that they're such
inefficient delivery vehicles. My small propeller airplane, which
I may not legally fly as close to the Capitol as Tysons Corner,
can carry one-sixth as many pounds of cargo -- or bombs -- as my
family car, which I drive close to major buildings every day.

And for the private jets that are large enough to do damage, the
ADIZ offers no real protection. Once a jet is cleared into the
ADIZ, what protects the White House and Capitol is what would
protect them without an ADIZ: missile batteries on the rooftops
and bunkers in the basement.

Perhaps a good compromise would be to require jet aircraft to comply
with the DC ADIZ. After all, turbine aircraft get about 750 feet to
the gallon of fuel, so they carry a copious amounts. Fortunately,
most jet powered aircraft are on IFR flight plans, so they wouldn't be
impacted very much.

Just a thought.

[Steve Foley]

Is my memory failing, or didn't this one make the headlines:

"Of the thousands of ADIZ cases that have tied up FAA lawyers and often led
to sanctions against pilots, exactly one was found to involve an intentional
violation."

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On 2 Nov 2005 6:35:34 -0500, "Ash Wyllie" > wrote in
> >::
>
> >
> >An interesting article in the Washingtom Post.
> >
>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR200511010
1291.html
>
>
> To operate at any point in this zone, pilots must go through
> unique and elaborate procedures. They must file a flight plan
> before entering the ADIZ and must do so by telephone, often having
> to wait 10 or 20 minutes on hold rather than just spending a
> minute or two to file the plan via computer.
>
> Once in the airplane, pilots must contact a controller for a code
> to identify their airplane on radar -- and must often guess the
> frequency on which to reach the controller, since it changes. If
> the flight plan has been lost in the system, as often occurs, they
> may have to land at an airport outside the ADIZ and start over
> again. If radio congestion means they can't reach a controller,
> they must circle outside the ADIZ border, avoiding other pilots in
> the same predicament.
>
> These might seem trivial burdens if they made sense for security,
> but they don't. The ADIZ plan displays that special combination of
> other early, panicky post-Sept. 11 moves: It doesn't hinder
> terrorists, but it complicates life for everyone else. What mainly
> stops terrorists from using small aircraft is that they're such
> inefficient delivery vehicles. My small propeller airplane, which
> I may not legally fly as close to the Capitol as Tysons Corner,
> can carry one-sixth as many pounds of cargo -- or bombs -- as my
> family car, which I drive close to major buildings every day.
>
> And for the private jets that are large enough to do damage, the
> ADIZ offers no real protection. Once a jet is cleared into the
> ADIZ, what protects the White House and Capitol is what would
> protect them without an ADIZ: missile batteries on the rooftops
> and bunkers in the basement.
>
> Perhaps a good compromise would be to require jet aircraft to comply
> with the DC ADIZ. After all, turbine aircraft get about 750 feet to
> the gallon of fuel, so they carry a copious amounts. Fortunately,
> most jet powered aircraft are on IFR flight plans, so they wouldn't be
> impacted very much.
>
> Just a thought.
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
> An interesting article in the Washingtom Post.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101291.html

Not too bad. Except for this part:

One part of the new airspace proposals has drawn little
controversy: the "freeze," or Flight Restricted Zone,
which is a circular area 34 miles across centered on
Reagan National Airport in which private aviation is
prohibited. On a nighttime training flight in the 1990s,
I flew (while in contact with controllers at National)
toward the city over the Potomac and out again over the
Anacostia. Most pilots realize that flights like that
will never happen again.

The "freeze" has drawn little controversy? I wonder who he's been talking
to. Obviously not the people who used to depend on the three GA airports
within that restricted area, or anyone else with any common sense about
what's helpful or practical and what's not.

Pete

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>> To operate at any point in this zone, pilots must go through
> unique and elaborate procedures. They must file a flight plan
> before entering the ADIZ and must do so by telephone, often having
> to wait 10 or 20 minutes on hold rather than just spending a
> minute or two to file the plan via computer.

A great way to check for "foreign voice accents" Follow up questions
can include this
years World Series Champ, Super Bowl winner, end of Ramadan, etc.

>
> Once in the airplane, pilots must contact a controller for a code
> to identify their airplane on radar -- and must often guess the
> frequency on which to reach the controller, since it changes. If
> the flight plan has been lost in the system, as often occurs, they
> may have to land at an airport outside the ADIZ and start over
> again. If radio congestion means they can't reach a controller,
> they must circle outside the ADIZ border, avoiding other pilots in
> the same predicament.

FAA controllers have been short staffed since Reagan, check major hub
staffing versus budget. Ironic that DCA is RR airport.

>
> These might seem trivial burdens if they made sense for security,
> but they don't. The ADIZ plan displays that special combination of
> other early, panicky post-Sept. 11 moves: It doesn't hinder
> terrorists, but it complicates life for everyone else. What mainly
> stops terrorists from using small aircraft is that they're such
> inefficient delivery vehicles. My small propeller airplane, which
> I may not legally fly as close to the Capitol as Tysons Corner,
> can carry one-sixth as many pounds of cargo -- or bombs -- as my
> family car, which I drive close to major buildings every day.

But your car won't drop from the sky, Kamikazi style. Easier to halt a
bio/chem
spraying car versus chasing a crop duster.

>
> And for the private jets that are large enough to do damage, the
> ADIZ offers no real protection. Once a jet is cleared into the
> ADIZ, what protects the White House and Capitol is what would
> protect them without an ADIZ: missile batteries on the rooftops
> and bunkers in the basement.
>
> Perhaps a good compromise would be to require jet aircraft to comply
> with the DC ADIZ. After all, turbine aircraft get about 750 feet to
> the gallon of fuel, so they carry a copious amounts. Fortunately,
> most jet powered aircraft are on IFR flight plans, so they wouldn't be
> impacted very much.
>
> Just a thought.

Try Amtrak, just a thought, JG

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Larry Dighera wrote:
> >> To operate at any point in this zone, pilots must go through
> > unique and elaborate procedures. They must file a flight plan
> > before entering the ADIZ and must do so by telephone, often having
> > to wait 10 or 20 minutes on hold rather than just spending a
> > minute or two to file the plan via computer.
>
> A great way to check for "foreign voice accents" Follow up questions
> can include this
> years World Series Champ, Super Bowl winner, end of Ramadan, etc.
>
> >
> > Once in the airplane, pilots must contact a controller for a code
> > to identify their airplane on radar -- and must often guess the
> > frequency on which to reach the controller, since it changes. If
> > the flight plan has been lost in the system, as often occurs, they
> > may have to land at an airport outside the ADIZ and start over
> > again. If radio congestion means they can't reach a controller,
> > they must circle outside the ADIZ border, avoiding other pilots in
> > the same predicament.
>
> FAA controllers have been short staffed since Reagan, check major hub
> staffing versus budget. Ironic that DCA is RR airport.
>
> >
> > These might seem trivial burdens if they made sense for security,
> > but they don't. The ADIZ plan displays that special combination of
> > other early, panicky post-Sept. 11 moves: It doesn't hinder
> > terrorists, but it complicates life for everyone else. What mainly
> > stops terrorists from using small aircraft is that they're such
> > inefficient delivery vehicles. My small propeller airplane, which
> > I may not legally fly as close to the Capitol as Tysons Corner,
> > can carry one-sixth as many pounds of cargo -- or bombs -- as my
> > family car, which I drive close to major buildings every day.
>
> But your car won't drop from the sky, Kamikazi style. Easier to halt a
> bio/chem
> spraying car versus chasing a crop duster.
>
> >
> > And for the private jets that are large enough to do damage, the
> > ADIZ offers no real protection. Once a jet is cleared into the
> > ADIZ, what protects the White House and Capitol is what would
> > protect them without an ADIZ: missile batteries on the rooftops
> > and bunkers in the basement.
> >
> > Perhaps a good compromise would be to require jet aircraft to comply
> > with the DC ADIZ. After all, turbine aircraft get about 750 feet to
> > the gallon of fuel, so they carry a copious amounts. Fortunately,
> > most jet powered aircraft are on IFR flight plans, so they wouldn't be
> > impacted very much.
> >
> > Just a thought.
>
> Try Amtrak, just a thought, JG

Go to Hell, "jgrove!" -- just a thought.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
> To operate at any point in this zone, pilots must go through
> unique and elaborate procedures. They must file a flight plan
> before entering the ADIZ and must do so by telephone, often having
> to wait 10 or 20 minutes on hold rather than just spending a
> minute or two to file the plan via computer.
>
> Once in the airplane, pilots must contact a controller for a code
> to identify their airplane on radar -- and must often guess the
> frequency on which to reach the controller, since it changes. If
> the flight plan has been lost in the system, as often occurs, they
> may have to land at an airport outside the ADIZ and start over
> again. If radio congestion means they can't reach a controller,
> they must circle outside the ADIZ border, avoiding other pilots in
> the same predicament.

These are the same procedures that I have had to follow for a couple of
decades of island flying. These procedures are fallible. They don't stop the
occassional stray airplane from entering the US. They won't stop an
intentional busting of DC airspace.

D.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 03:36:39 GMT, "Capt.Doug" >
wrote in >::

>They won't stop an intentional busting of DC airspace.

I don't believe that is the purpose of the DC ADIZ; it is the purpose
of the FRZ. There are SAM missiles for stopping unidentified
intentional intrusions into the FRZ. The ADIZ serves to provide
Customs with an opportunity to identify flights as friend or foe
before they penetrate the FRZ and are shot down.

It's a completely uninspired system concept that is so flawed as to be
incapable of accomplishing its purpose and only impacts the innocent.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
> I don't believe that is the purpose of the DC ADIZ; it is the purpose
> of the FRZ. There are SAM missiles for stopping unidentified
> intentional intrusions into the FRZ. The ADIZ serves to provide
> Customs with an opportunity to identify flights as friend or foe
> before they penetrate the FRZ and are shot down.

That's the point I'm getting to- Customs, or whoever is on duty, won't have
time or equipment to identify the intruder. It happens on the borders quite
often. The SAMs are likely capable of taking out the target, but will the
launch personnel have authorization before it's too late when Customs or
whoever is on duty fails to properly identify the target as friend or foe?

> It's a completely uninspired system concept that is so flawed as to be
> incapable of accomplishing its purpose and only impacts the innocent.

Agreed, its a hysterical kneejerk reaction from politicians who don't have a
clue.

D.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 02:13:42 GMT, "Capt.Doug" >
wrote in >::

>>"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
>> I don't believe that is the purpose of the DC ADIZ; it is the purpose
>> of the FRZ. There are SAM missiles for stopping unidentified
>> intentional intrusions into the FRZ. The ADIZ serves to provide
>> Customs with an opportunity to identify flights as friend or foe
>> before they penetrate the FRZ and are shot down.
>
>That's the point I'm getting to- Customs, or whoever is on duty, won't have
>time or equipment to identify the intruder.

Don't say that too loudly, or they'll increase the size of the DC ADIZ
so they'll have more time. :-(

>It happens on the borders quite often.

Specifically what happens? Are you saying that Customs interceptor
aircraft are often incapable of identifying errant aircraft
penetrating the ADIZ' along the nation's boarders?

>The SAMs are likely capable of taking out the target, but will the
>launch personnel have authorization before it's too late when Customs or
>whoever is on duty fails to properly identify the target as friend or foe?

We have no way of knowing the Secret Service policy governing
unidentified targets penetrating the FRZ.

[Martin Hotze]

On 3 Nov 2005 17:33:58 -0800, wrote:

>A great way to check for "foreign voice accents"

and this helps what?

> Follow up questions
>can include this
>years World Series Champ, Super Bowl winner, end of Ramadan, etc.

bah ... does one really ned to know such facts? I don't know facts of our
national sports, because I don't like it. So I am might be a terrorist?

But I am happy, because we are all suspected terrorists.

#m

--
Repeat an assertion four times and it becomes a fact. Repeat an assertion
four times and it becomes a fact. Repeat an assertion four times and it
becomes a fact. Repeat an assertion four times and it becomes a fact.

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> A great way to check for "foreign voice accents"

Like East Tennessee?

> Follow up questions can include this
> years World Series Champ, Super Bowl winner, end of Ramadan, etc.

None of which I know.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[LWG]

Agreed, but isn't this really idiotic?

What is to stop someone from simply copying a tail number and connecting it
to the pilot who flies the plane? How many lessons would it take to learn
to take off, contact Potomac and set a code? Come up on freq at the
checkpoint and get your squawk. I'll bet each of the 9/11 hijackers could
do that, were they still alive today.

Just how stupid do you have to be not to see that any motivated and
marginally competent person with evil intentions and the willingness to
rent, borrow or steal an airplane can get into the ADIZ and as close to the
FRZ as I can, without anyone in authority knowing.

All the ADIZ does is placate the soccer mom mentality incapable of rational
thought, and punish innocent transgressors. Our mistake is that we think the
people out to do us harm are as moronic as those who are clamoring for
protection.


> I don't believe that is the purpose of the DC ADIZ; it is the purpose
> of the FRZ. There are SAM missiles for stopping unidentified
> intentional intrusions into the FRZ. The ADIZ serves to provide
> Customs with an opportunity to identify flights as friend or foe
> before they penetrate the FRZ and are shot down.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
> Specifically what happens? Are you saying that Customs interceptor
> aircraft are often incapable of identifying errant aircraft
> penetrating the ADIZ' along the nation's boarders?

An occassional aircraft penetrates the border without being inspected by
Customs.

> We have no way of knowing the Secret Service policy governing
> unidentified targets penetrating the FRZ.

My imagination flies.

D.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 20:10:02 -0500, "LWG" >
wrote in >::

>
>All the ADIZ does is placate the soccer mom mentality incapable of rational
>thought, and punish innocent transgressors.

I never meant to imply that the DC ADIZ/FRZ were effective security
measures.

[LWG]

I know you didn't.

I was just venting about what I think is an asinine waste time and money
that doesn't withstand the least scrutiny.

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 20:10:02 -0500, "LWG" >
> wrote in >::
>
>>
>>All the ADIZ does is placate the soccer mom mentality incapable of
>>rational
>>thought, and punish innocent transgressors.
>
> I never meant to imply that the DC ADIZ/FRZ were effective security
> measures.
>

[Tom]

I always wonder what the public will think of Cessna 152 parts and flaming
SAM fuel raining down on their heads when and if one is ever launched.

Tom

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
>> I don't believe that is the purpose of the DC ADIZ; it is the purpose
>> of the FRZ. There are SAM missiles for stopping unidentified
>> intentional intrusions into the FRZ. The ADIZ serves to provide
>> Customs with an opportunity to identify flights as friend or foe
>> before they penetrate the FRZ and are shot down.
>
> That's the point I'm getting to- Customs, or whoever is on duty, won't
> have
> time or equipment to identify the intruder. It happens on the borders
> quite
> often. The SAMs are likely capable of taking out the target, but will the
> launch personnel have authorization before it's too late when Customs or
> whoever is on duty fails to properly identify the target as friend or foe?
>
>> It's a completely uninspired system concept that is so flawed as to be
>> incapable of accomplishing its purpose and only impacts the innocent.
>
> Agreed, its a hysterical kneejerk reaction from politicians who don't have
> a
> clue.
>
> D.
>
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:30:32 -0700, "Tom" > wrote in
>::

>I always wonder what the public will think of Cessna 152 parts and flaming
>SAM fuel raining down on their heads when and if one is ever launched.

Given the SS policy of evacuating the bureau crafts from the safety of
their buildings and their running around outside at the slightest hint
of an approaching 1,600 pound aircraft, their behavior is consistent
with someone wishing to bathe in a deluge of aircraft debris and fuel.
"But that's just me; I could be wrong." :-)

[[email protected]]

George Patterson wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > A great way to check for "foreign voice accents"
>
> Like East Tennessee?
>
> > Follow up questions can include this
> > years World Series Champ, Super Bowl winner, end of Ramadan, etc.
>
> None of which I know.

Then start practicing your best Chuck Yeager drawl, the twangy-er the
better :)
Oh, the answer to #1 is: Chicago White Sox.

JG