New FSS Policy

[Jay Beckman]

FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
BEFORE your ETA...

Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight plan,
walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk says
Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for 0730MST
departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with a wheels
up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off (probably
because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual so my buddy
could see his house.)

So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no idea
why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment to
ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to call
them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)

Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm on
the ground.

So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ
(Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)

[Guy Elden Jr]

Sounds good to me. Much easier for them to make a phone call than to
scramble a CAP flight for a pilot who simply forgot to close a VFR
flight plan. Seems like this private industry thing might actually be
able to control costs - who woulda thunk it! :)

--
Guy

[Gig 601XL Builder]

This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
just here the phone call.

MY WIFE: Hello
FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
MY WIFE: No
FSS: OK Thanks

My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.



"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
> FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
> BEFORE your ETA...
>
> Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
> plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
> says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
> 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with
> a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
> (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual so
> my buddy could see his house.)
>
> So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no idea
> why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment to
> ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
> policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
> call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
>
> Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
> 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
> call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm on
> the ground.
>
> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> AZ Cloudbusters
> Chandler, AZ
> (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
>

[Marco Leon]

So now you know--give them your cell phone number!


"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:ly9af.2056$5N1.1831@dukeread08...
> This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
> just here the phone call.
>
> MY WIFE: Hello
> FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
> MY WIFE: No
> FSS: OK Thanks
>
> My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
> into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.
>
>
>
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
> news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
> > FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
> > BEFORE your ETA...
> >
> > Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
> > plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
> > says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
> > 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan
with
> > a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
> > (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual
so
> > my buddy could see his house.)
> >
> > So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no
idea
> > why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment
to
> > ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
> > policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
> > call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
> >
> > Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
> > 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there)
my
> > call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm
on
> > the ground.
> >
> > So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
> >
> > Jay Beckman
> > PP-ASEL
> > AZ Cloudbusters
> > Chandler, AZ
> > (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
> >
>
>

[Steve Foley]

My wife got one of those calls once.

Younger brother arranged a 'training' flight from Pensacola to Schenectady.
He was in the navy, and a group of guys wanted to go to a wedding. His
training flight was their transportation. He took a bus to Central
Massachusetts, and I flew him back in a rented Cessna. The senior officer of
the group mis-understood the directions, and was waiting in the wrong place
at the airport. He ended up calling my house asking why we were an hour
late. I had already dropped off little brother and was on my way back home.

Wife was not happy.


"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
> FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
> BEFORE your ETA...
>
> Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
plan,
> walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk says
> Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for 0730MST
> departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with a wheels
> up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off (probably
> because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual so my buddy
> could see his house.)
>
> So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no idea
> why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment to
> ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
> policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
call
> them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
>
> Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
> 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
> call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm on
> the ground.
>
> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> AZ Cloudbusters
> Chandler, AZ
> (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sounds good to me. Much easier for them to make a phone call than to
> scramble a CAP flight for a pilot who simply forgot to close a VFR
> flight plan. Seems like this private industry thing might actually be
> able to control costs - who woulda thunk it! :)
>

The new policy isn't making a phone call instead of scrambling a CAP flight,
it's calling at or before the ETA instead of beginning a search after the
ETA. The first step in the search was always a phone call.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Beckman" > said:
>FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
>BEFORE your ETA...

That happened to me once about 8 years ago. I was on a VFR flight plan to
Saranac Lake, but since it was a calm day I decided to take a circuit
around Whiteface Mountain before landing. I was about 10 minutes over ETA
when somebody called on Saranac Lake Unicom asking if I was on the
frequency, because Flight Service had called them to see if I'd arrived
yet.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Why is there only one Monopolies and Mergers Commission?
-- JNP

[Jay Beckman]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:ly9af.2056$5N1.1831@dukeread08...
> This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
> just here the phone call.
>
> MY WIFE: Hello
> FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
> MY WIFE: No
> FSS: OK Thanks
>
> My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
> into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.

Gig,

That's my take on this too. IMO, it's "uber efficient" when dealing with a
bug-smashing C172 just out for a breakfast run like I was this morning.

Kind of scared me at first.

Jay

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Jay Beckman" > said:
>>
>>FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
>>BEFORE your ETA...
>>
>
> That happened to me once about 8 years ago. I was on a VFR flight plan to
> Saranac Lake, but since it was a calm day I decided to take a circuit
> around Whiteface Mountain before landing. I was about 10 minutes over ETA
> when somebody called on Saranac Lake Unicom asking if I was on the
> frequency, because Flight Service had called them to see if I'd arrived
> yet.
>

If you were ten minutes over your ETA it didn't happen to you.

[Ron Natalie]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Sounds good to me. Much easier for them to make a phone call than to
>> scramble a CAP flight for a pilot who simply forgot to close a VFR
>> flight plan. Seems like this private industry thing might actually be
>> able to control costs - who woulda thunk it! :)
>>
>
> The new policy isn't making a phone call instead of scrambling a CAP flight,
> it's calling at or before the ETA instead of beginning a search after the
> ETA. The first step in the search was always a phone call.
>
>
Yep, it was 30 minutes of grace period and then 30 minutes of hunting
around and sending ALNOTs before you ever got anywhere near a real
SAR response.

[Newps]

Jay Beckman wrote:


>
> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...

You are complaining about this? You're a moron.

[Chris]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
> FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
> BEFORE your ETA...
>
> Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
> plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
> says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
> 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with
> a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
> (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual so
> my buddy could see his house.)
>
> So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no idea
> why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment to
> ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
> policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
> call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
>
> Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
> 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
> call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm on
> the ground.
>
> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...

Interesting way of doing things.

here in the UK the way a VFR flight plan works is that the pilot nominates a
responsible person (family member, FBO etc) to make the call if they are
overdue rather than have the ATC make assumptions. The basis is that no news
is good news.

So the other week, coming back from France, there is no closing of the
flight plan, my wife had an idea when I was due back and she had
instructions to call the SAR if I had not checked in on time. As it was I
called her on landing as I always do (even when flying in the US) and there
was no need to bother those nice but very busy people at Heathrow. They
especially don't have the time or capacity to take loads of calls from
people saying I'm fine.

[Peter R.]

Jay Beckman > wrote:

> That's my take on this too. IMO, it's "uber efficient" when dealing with a
> bug-smashing C172 just out for a breakfast run like I was this morning.

Do you file a VFR flight plan for all of your VFR flights (excluding
pattern work, of course)?

After a few calls from FSS when I forgot to close my VFR flight plan, I
sided with many in this group who advocated only filing a VFR FP when
flying out of radar coverage which, in my case, only applied when I was
flying up to the Adirondack mountains of NY state.

In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.

--
Peter
























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[Jay Honeck]

> In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
> radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.

Agree 100%.

When flying in areas that have radar coverage -- and controllers who are
actually willing to provide Flight Following, which is virtually everywhere
in the Midwest outside of Chicago -- VFR flight plans are simply not worth
the bother.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
>> That's my take on this too. IMO, it's "uber efficient" when dealing with
>> a
>> bug-smashing C172 just out for a breakfast run like I was this morning.
>
> Do you file a VFR flight plan for all of your VFR flights (excluding
> pattern work, of course)?

I do whenever I intend to go off over the mountains (which is just about any
flight that takes me out of the Phoenix valley area.)

Also, the flying club to which I belong requires that a flight plan be filed
for trips over 75nm.

> After a few calls from FSS when I forgot to close my VFR flight plan, I
> sided with many in this group who advocated only filing a VFR FP when
> flying out of radar coverage which, in my case, only applied when I was
> flying up to the Adirondack mountains of NY state.

I haven't brain cramped and forgotten to call (yet) so dunno what to say
there.

> In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
> radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.

Since it's on a workload permitting basis, what happens if "center" can't or
won't take you for flight following?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Sounds good to me. Much easier for them to make a phone call than to
> > scramble a CAP flight for a pilot who simply forgot to close a VFR
> > flight plan. Seems like this private industry thing might actually be
> > able to control costs - who woulda thunk it! :)
> >
>
> The new policy isn't making a phone call instead of scrambling a CAP flight,
> it's calling at or before the ETA instead of beginning a search after the
> ETA. The first step in the search was always a phone call.

Calling before scrambling makes sense, but calling before the ETA does
not. One would *expect* that before the ETA the plane would not yet
have arrived, so calling before the ETA and learning that it has in fact
not yet arrived seems like a waste of effort to me.

rg

[Peter R.]

Jay Beckman > wrote:

> Since it's on a workload permitting basis, what happens if "center" can't or
> won't take you for flight following?

I suspected you might toss out that scenario. :)

Again, in an area of radar coverage without FF (due to workload), it would
be 121.50 and 7700 on the transponder if I didn't know the nearest ATC
facility, or "Mayday" on a familiar frequency.

In the interest of full disclosure, I also carry a GPS-equipped personal
locator beacon. Given what you fly over, you might want to consider this
purchase, too, if you haven't already.

--
Peter
























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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> around Whiteface Mountain before landing. I was about 10 minutes over ETA
>> when somebody called on Saranac Lake Unicom asking if I was on the
>> frequency, because Flight Service had called them to see if I'd arrived
>> yet.
>
>If you were ten minutes over your ETA it didn't happen to you.

Except my understanding at the time was that FSS didn't start searching
until 30 minutes or an hour after your ETA.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If I have pinged farther than others, it is because I routed upon
the T3s of giants.
-- Greg Andrews

[Jay Beckman]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>
>
>>
>> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>
> You are complaining about this? You're a moron.
>

All I meant is that there is a new sheriff in town. (And I really don't
apprecieate the insult because the last thing I am is a moron....I can
assure you of that...)

But...

In all seriousness, tell me how you handle this knowing that FSS is going to
be "standing on the porch" waiting:

My home base is under the Phoenix Sky Harbor Class Bravo. To fly to
Prescott, Sedona or other points north, the usual drill is to take off and
get a little space to the south, contact FSS on the Phoenix RCO when clear
of the immediate home airport environs, then turn west to the usual
reporting point to request a transition of the Class Bravo from south to
north.

Now I've had instances where the Phoenix controlers are busy and I've had to
do a couple of 360s before I get a squawk and I'm cleared in. The rest is
fairly simple: Fly the assigned transition at the assigned altitidue, climb
when instructed/allowed and then contact ZAB center when handed off. Not a
big deal, but not really your run of the mill take off, turn immediately on
course and just proceed as planned.

Under this new scenario, I'm late before I've even started so I'm going to
have FBOs everywhere north of Phoenix telling me that FSS is looking for me?
Even if it's only a couple of minutes? Today I might have been all of one
minute over ETE coming home.

So should I now always request a momentary frequency change from center to
call FSS and amend my ETE / ETA or should I just pad my ETE right from the
start?

Or, should I just risk it and fly without filing a flight plan at all?

Please enlighten me...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
>> Since it's on a workload permitting basis, what happens if "center" can't
>> or
>> won't take you for flight following?
>
> I suspected you might toss out that scenario. :)
>
> Again, in an area of radar coverage without FF (due to workload), it would
> be 121.50 and 7700 on the transponder if I didn't know the nearest ATC
> facility, or "Mayday" on a familiar frequency.
>
> In the interest of full disclosure, I also carry a GPS-equipped personal
> locator beacon. Given what you fly over, you might want to consider this
> purchase, too, if you haven't already.
>
> --
> Peter

A personal ELT-esque device would probably be a very wise addition. Thank
you for the suggestion.

Jay

[Judah]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in
news:uH9af.3016$5F3.2542@trndny03:

> My wife got one of those calls once.
>
> Younger brother arranged a 'training' flight from Pensacola to
> Schenectady. He was in the navy, and a group of guys wanted to go to a
> wedding. His training flight was their transportation. He took a bus
> to Central Massachusetts, and I flew him back in a rented Cessna. The
> senior officer of the group mis-understood the directions, and was
> waiting in the wrong place at the airport. He ended up calling my
> house asking why we were an hour late. I had already dropped off
> little brother and was on my way back home.
>
> Wife was not happy.
>

I'm guessing that Senior Officer was probably almost as unhappy...

[Judah]

What about pilots who have no friends or family?

"Chris" > wrote in
:

> So the other week, coming back from France, there is no closing of the
> flight plan, my wife had an idea when I was due back and she had
> instructions to call the SAR if I had not checked in on time. As it
> was I called her on landing as I always do (even when flying in the
> US) and there was no need to bother those nice but very busy people at
> Heathrow. They especially don't have the time or capacity to take
> loads of calls from people saying I'm fine.
>

[BTIZ]

and with the cell phone number... I'm still in the air and will not hear it
ring.. and then I'm talking to tower anyway.. so after I'm tied down and
parked.. I'll dig out the phone turn it on and see the "missed call" notice,
maybe they left a message, maybe not.

BT

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> So now you know--give them your cell phone number!
>
>
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:ly9af.2056$5N1.1831@dukeread08...
>> This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
>> just here the phone call.
>>
>> MY WIFE: Hello
>> FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
>> MY WIFE: No
>> FSS: OK Thanks
>>
>> My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
>> into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
>> news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
>> > FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at
>> > or
>> > BEFORE your ETA...
>> >
>> > Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
>> > plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
>> > says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
>> > 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan
> with
>> > a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
>> > (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual
> so
>> > my buddy could see his house.)
>> >
>> > So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no
> idea
>> > why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment
> to
>> > ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now
>> > their
>> > policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
>> > call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
>> >
>> > Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
>> > 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there)
> my
>> > call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm
> on
>> > the ground.
>> >
>> > So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>> >
>> > Jay Beckman
>> > PP-ASEL
>> > AZ Cloudbusters
>> > Chandler, AZ
>> > (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[.Blueskies.]

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message ...
> So now you know--give them your cell phone number!
>
>

So who has a cell phone?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Except my understanding at the time was that FSS didn't start searching
> until 30 minutes or an hour after your ETA.
>

Correct, so what Jay Beckman described didn't happen to you eight years ago.

[George Patterson]

..Blueskies. wrote:

> So who has a cell phone?

Thank you! I was beginning to think I'm the only one without one.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[George Patterson]

Peter R. wrote:

> In the interest of full disclosure, I also carry a GPS-equipped personal
> locator beacon. Given what you fly over, you might want to consider this
> purchase, too, if you haven't already.

It's a good idea. The ELT in my Maule could be removed and carried along, so I
never bothered with one of the personal beacons. With the new GPS-equipped
models, I think I would have to change that.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[George Patterson]

Judah wrote:

> I'm guessing that Senior Officer was probably almost as unhappy...

I'm guessing that little brother wound up being the most unhappy of them all.
That's usually the way the military works.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[George Patterson]

Chris wrote:

> here in the UK the way a VFR flight plan works is that the pilot nominates a
> responsible person (family member, FBO etc) to make the call if they are
> overdue rather than have the ATC make assumptions. The basis is that no news
> is good news.

That's the way most of us who don't file flight plans do things over here.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[George Patterson]

Judah wrote:
> What about pilots who have no friends or family?

Then who cares if you crash? :-)

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:U6daf.590$bo.370@fed1read01...
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> >
> > Jay Beckman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
> >
> > You are complaining about this? You're a moron.
> >
>
> All I meant is that there is a new sheriff in town. (And I really don't
> apprecieate the insult because the last thing I am is a moron....I can
> assure you of that...)
>
> But...
>
> In all seriousness, tell me how you handle this knowing that FSS is going
to
> be "standing on the porch" waiting:
>
> My home base is under the Phoenix Sky Harbor Class Bravo. To fly to
> Prescott, Sedona or other points north, the usual drill is to take off and
> get a little space to the south, contact FSS on the Phoenix RCO when clear
> of the immediate home airport environs, then turn west to the usual
> reporting point to request a transition of the Class Bravo from south to
> north.
>
> Now I've had instances where the Phoenix controlers are busy and I've had
to
> do a couple of 360s before I get a squawk and I'm cleared in. The rest is
> fairly simple: Fly the assigned transition at the assigned altitidue,
climb
> when instructed/allowed and then contact ZAB center when handed off. Not
a
> big deal, but not really your run of the mill take off, turn immediately
on
> course and just proceed as planned.
>
> Under this new scenario, I'm late before I've even started so I'm going to
> have FBOs everywhere north of Phoenix telling me that FSS is looking for
me?
> Even if it's only a couple of minutes? Today I might have been all of one
> minute over ETE coming home.
>
> So should I now always request a momentary frequency change from center to
> call FSS and amend my ETE / ETA or should I just pad my ETE right from the
> start?
>
> Or, should I just risk it and fly without filing a flight plan at all?

Any of the three options you presented will work.

> Please enlighten me...
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> Chandler, AZ
>
>

[RST Engineering]

Please tell me you aren't idiot enough to not snip a hundred lines of
message for a insipid one line answer.

Jim



"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...


>
> Any of the three options you presented will work.

[Aluckyguess]

Add 15 minutes to your flight
"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:ly9af.2056$5N1.1831@dukeread08...
> This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
> just here the phone call.
>
> MY WIFE: Hello
> FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
> MY WIFE: No
> FSS: OK Thanks
>
> My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
> into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.
>
>
>
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
> news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
>> FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
>> BEFORE your ETA...
>>
>> Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
>> plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
>> says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
>> 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with
>> a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
>> (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual
>> so my buddy could see his house.)
>>
>> So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no
>> idea why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a
>> moment to ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is
>> now their policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for
>> pilots to call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his
>> words...)
>>
>> Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
>> 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
>> call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm
>> on the ground.
>>
>> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>>
>> Jay Beckman
>> PP-ASEL
>> AZ Cloudbusters
>> Chandler, AZ
>> (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
>>
>
>

[Ron Lee]

>A personal ELT-esque device would probably be a very wise addition. Thank
>you for the suggestion.
>
>Jay

Jay, these are not ELTs. They are 406 MHz beacons. They can be picked
up by GEO satellites and if GPS equipped like mine is ( I fly in the
Rockies) they can know your exact location in a few minutes instead of
many square miles in hours with a 121.5 Mhz ELT.

Mine is McMurdo Fastfind Plus.

Ron Lee

[Ron Lee]

George Patterson > wrote:

>Judah wrote:
>> What about pilots who have no friends or family?
>
>Then who cares if you crash? :-)

My dog would.

Ron Lee

[Ron Lee]

>In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
>radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.
>--
>Peter
>

I concur. In 800 hours of VFR flying in three years I have filed one
flight plan. But I use flight following on cross country flights.

Ron Lee

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
(Ron Lee) wrote:

> George Patterson > wrote:
>
> >Judah wrote:
> >> What about pilots who have no friends or family?
> >
> >Then who cares if you crash? :-)
>
> My dog would.

So give 'em your dog's cell phone number.

;-)

rg

[Jay Beckman]

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
> >A personal ELT-esque device would probably be a very wise addition.
> >Thank
>>you for the suggestion.
>>
>>Jay
>
> Jay, these are not ELTs. They are 406 MHz beacons. They can be picked
> up by GEO satellites and if GPS equipped like mine is ( I fly in the
> Rockies) they can know your exact location in a few minutes instead of
> many square miles in hours with a 121.5 Mhz ELT.
>
> Mine is McMurdo Fastfind Plus.
>
> Ron Lee

Ron,

Thanks for the clarification.

Jay

[Peter R.]

Ron Lee > wrote:

> Mine is McMurdo Fastfind Plus.

Mine also. I purchased it in early May for my flight across the US. I
think I paid about $550 from a reputable Internet site.

The price most likely has come down even more since then.

--
Peter
























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[Lakeview Bill]

Let's not turn this into a flame war; I simply want to get a discussion
going on this. Also note that I am not yet a pilot, and I'm hoping to learn
something out of this. You stated:

"After a few calls from FSS when I forgot to close my VFR flight plan..."

By this reasoning, it would be appropriate for one to just make ALL of their
landings "wheels up" because they from time to time forgot to verify that
check list item.

Over the years, I have read many statements where pilots stopped filing
flight plans because they kept forgetting to close them. IMHO, this
indicates a somewhat lackadaisical attitude. If they forget to close their
flight plan, what else are they forgetting to do?

I have often heard that "the flight ain't over 'til the wheels are on the
ground and the prop's stopped turning." A CFI friend of mind always added
"and the flight plan is closed".

Would it perhaps be better, instead of simply abandoning a safety measure
because one forgets to properly use it, to develop the routine required to
properly use the safety measure?

TIA for your opinions...





"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
> > That's my take on this too. IMO, it's "uber efficient" when dealing
with a
> > bug-smashing C172 just out for a breakfast run like I was this morning.
>
> Do you file a VFR flight plan for all of your VFR flights (excluding
> pattern work, of course)?
>
> After a few calls from FSS when I forgot to close my VFR flight plan, I
> sided with many in this group who advocated only filing a VFR FP when
> flying out of radar coverage which, in my case, only applied when I was
> flying up to the Adirondack mountains of NY state.
>
> In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
> radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Well that kind of invalidates the idea that the flight plan is the plan of
the flight doesn't it?


"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
> Add 15 minutes to your flight


> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:ly9af.2056$5N1.1831@dukeread08...
>> This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
>> just here the phone call.
>>
>> MY WIFE: Hello
>> FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
>> MY WIFE: No
>> FSS: OK Thanks
>>
>> My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
>> into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.
>>

[Mark T. Dame]

Peter R. wrote:

> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
> After a few calls from FSS when I forgot to close my VFR flight plan, I
> sided with many in this group who advocated only filing a VFR FP when
> flying out of radar coverage which, in my case, only applied when I was
> flying up to the Adirondack mountains of NY state.

I've filed exactly one VFR flight plan since I got my ticket and that
was only six weeks after I got it. It was my first serious cross
country flight (300+ miles and 3 - 4 hours each way). After that I
decided it wasn't worth it.


> In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
> radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.

I would agree with that, but now anything over 100 miles I'll file IFR
even on a CAVU day: ATC can terminate your FF, but not your IFR flight
plan.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons."

[David Megginson]

Jay Beckman wrote:

> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...

I don't know if it's because of the change to Lockheed-Martin -- I had
the same thing happen to me once in the U.S. a year or so ago (I think
it was at Teterboro), before the switch. I imagine that the specialist
has a big list of calls to make and just wants to get through them
early sometimes.

In defense of FSS, I have accidentally made them call around for real
in the U.S. In Canada, towered airports (almost always) will close a
VFR flight plan for you automatically, since tower will automatically
have a copy of any incoming VFR flight plans; as a result, it's easy
for a Canadian pilot to forget to close a flight plan when landing at a
towered field in the U.S. I'm pretty good at remembering now, but it
took some practice, and caused U.S. FSS some bother (it's easier to
remember at untowered airports).


All the best,


David

[David Megginson]

Chris wrote:

> here in the UK the way a VFR flight plan works is that the pilot nominates a
> responsible person (family member, FBO etc) to make the call if they are
> overdue rather than have the ATC make assumptions. The basis is that no news
> is good news.

We have something similar in Canada, called a "Flight Itinerary", but
there have been problems with people not understanding how to notify
SAR (or even remembering that they should). In the U.S., the VFR
flight plan is entirely optional, so Americans can do things the U.K.
way if they want; however, it's nice to have a professional system in
place to respond quickly if you go missing. Most U.S. control towers
don't get involved with VFR flight plans -- you deal directly with
flight services.

In Canada, the VFR flight plan *or* flight itinerary (as in the U.K.)
is required for any trip over 25 nautical miles from the starting
point, and control towers do deal with VFR flight plans quite
efficiently.

Both Canada and the U.S. require VFR flight plans for cross-border
flights.


All the best,


David

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Mark T. Dame wrote:
> I would agree with that, but now anything over 100 miles I'll file IFR
> even on a CAVU day: ATC can terminate your FF, but not your IFR flight
> plan.


That's me as well. I have to deal with Class B airspace but there's always an
accomodation made for me if I'm IFR. I can always cancel in the vicinity of my
destination, assuming weather allows.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Peter Duniho]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:SZfaf.3511$y23.2214@trndny08...
> .Blueskies. wrote:
>
>> So who has a cell phone?
>
> Thank you! I was beginning to think I'm the only one without one.

Nope. You're not. There might only be three of us, but the number is
definitely greater than one. :)

[Chris]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> What about pilots who have no friends or family?
>

such a sad git ought not to fly then :)

[Kyler Laird]

".Blueskies." > writes:


>"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message ...
>> So now you know--give them your cell phone number!

>So who has a cell phone?

....and how would putting your cell phone number on a flight
plan help in the event that the flight plan actually has to
be used for its intended purpose?

Can it just be left blank?

--kyler

[Chris]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:z4gaf.3515$y23.3093@trndny08...
> Chris wrote:
>
>> here in the UK the way a VFR flight plan works is that the pilot
>> nominates a responsible person (family member, FBO etc) to make the call
>> if they are overdue rather than have the ATC make assumptions. The basis
>> is that no news is good news.
>
> That's the way most of us who don't file flight plans do things over here.

I only file a VFR flight plan when I have to either when travelling over
water or across and international boundary.

Travelling to France one needs to telephone on landing to close the flight
plan. The French will send you a bill for a needless SAR callout, usually
about $15000, but returning to the UK the process is a whole lot simpler.

[Marco Leon]

Well, I was responding to the post about the fear of having the wife getting
histerical because of the call from the FSS. I am assuming (maybe
incorrectly) that the FSS will attempt to call you cell number more than
once if they don't get you. After all, that's the only phone number on the
flight plan.

A freind of mine once forgot to close his VFR flight plan landing at an
uncontrolled field with only a payphone for "facilities." The FSS wound up
calling the town's public works maintenance department to verify he was on
the ground. Leaving his cell number would have probably averted that
situation.

Marco Leon

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> ".Blueskies." > writes:
>
>
> >"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> >> So now you know--give them your cell phone number!
>
> >So who has a cell phone?
>
> ...and how would putting your cell phone number on a flight
> plan help in the event that the flight plan actually has to
> be used for its intended purpose?
>
> Can it just be left blank?
>
> --kyler



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[Gig 601XL Builder]

But if they are just going to call the number several times until I answer
or close my flight plan they are wasting their time.

I wan them to wait a reasonable amount of time after my ETA and then call
whatever number I give them and if I or someone that knows I landed doesn't
answer I want them to call out the SAR.


"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> Well, I was responding to the post about the fear of having the wife
> getting
> histerical because of the call from the FSS. I am assuming (maybe
> incorrectly) that the FSS will attempt to call you cell number more than
> once if they don't get you. After all, that's the only phone number on the
> flight plan.
>
> A freind of mine once forgot to close his VFR flight plan landing at an
> uncontrolled field with only a payphone for "facilities." The FSS wound up
> calling the town's public works maintenance department to verify he was on
> the ground. Leaving his cell number would have probably averted that
> situation.
>
> Marco Leon
>
> "Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ".Blueskies." > writes:
>>
>>
>> >"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> ...
>> >> So now you know--give them your cell phone number!
>>
>> >So who has a cell phone?
>>
>> ...and how would putting your cell phone number on a flight
>> plan help in the event that the flight plan actually has to
>> be used for its intended purpose?
>>
>> Can it just be left blank?
>>
>> --kyler
>
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

[Mike W.]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote in message
...

> I've filed exactly one VFR flight plan since I got my ticket and that
> was only six weeks after I got it. It was my first serious cross
> country flight (300+ miles and 3 - 4 hours each way). After that I
> decided it wasn't worth it.

Not until they have to look for you.

>
> I would agree with that, but now anything over 100 miles I'll file IFR
> even on a CAVU day: ATC can terminate your FF, but not your IFR flight
> plan.

Not everyone has an instrument rating (unfortunately) so IFR is not an
option. Even if you file VFR and don't activate it, I would think they could
pull up the records for a period of time to find out what your planned route
was.

> -m
> --
> ## Mark T. Dame >
> ## VP, Product Development
> ## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
> "Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons."

[Roger]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:43:27 -0600, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote:

>But if they are just going to call the number several times until I answer
>or close my flight plan they are wasting their time.
>
>I wan them to wait a reasonable amount of time after my ETA and then call
>whatever number I give them and if I or someone that knows I landed doesn't
>answer I want them to call out the SAR.

I landed at Gainesville GA around midnight. Every thing was closed. A
car had been left for us. We signed in at a motel and I *tried* to
call FSS. The phones were out. So, I spent the next hour and a half
driving around until I finally found a phone that worked. That made
my call about 4 hours late.

FSS: Hello
Me: I'd like to close my flight plan. Sorry about being late, but I
couldn't find a phone that works around here.
FSS. No problem. You say you're late?
Me: yah, by about 4 hours.
FSS: Hmmm I guess you would call that a bit late. Thanks for calling
to close the flight plan.

Apparently different parts of the country place differing emphasis on
being late.

In all fairness this was also about 10 years ago.

OTOH we flew into BJC (Jefferson County, Boulder Colorado) snaking our
way around some really nasty stuff. Tornados, soft ball size hail
(which did a few million dollars worth of damage just to roofs).

We were a tad late due to the weather, but only by about 15 to 20
minutes. The guy at FSS really chewed me out for not calling to tell
them I'd be late.

Mountains at night, storms in the day, different responses from
different areas.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
>> Well, I was responding to the post about the fear of having the wife
>> getting
>> histerical because of the call from the FSS. I am assuming (maybe
>> incorrectly) that the FSS will attempt to call you cell number more than
>> once if they don't get you. After all, that's the only phone number on the
>> flight plan.
>>
>> A freind of mine once forgot to close his VFR flight plan landing at an
>> uncontrolled field with only a payphone for "facilities." The FSS wound up
>> calling the town's public works maintenance department to verify he was on
>> the ground. Leaving his cell number would have probably averted that
>> situation.
>>
>> Marco Leon
>>
>> "Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> ".Blueskies." > writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> >"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> >> So now you know--give them your cell phone number!
>>>
>>> >So who has a cell phone?
>>>
>>> ...and how would putting your cell phone number on a flight
>>> plan help in the event that the flight plan actually has to
>>> be used for its intended purpose?
>>>
>>> Can it just be left blank?
>>>
>>> --kyler
>>
>>
>>
>> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> http://www.usenet.com
>

[Judah]

"Chris" > wrote in :

>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> What about pilots who have no friends or family?
>>
>
> such a sad git ought not to fly then :)

But it's the only thing that keeps me happy.

Besides, it's the reason that my wife left me in the first place!

[Ron Lee]

"Lakeview Bill" > wrote:
>
>Would it perhaps be better, instead of simply abandoning a safety measure
>because one forgets to properly use it, to develop the routine required to
>properly use the safety measure?
>

Bill, sure it can be considered a safety measure but even better IMO
is flight following. If you have a problem they can know immediately
instead of hours later plus they should know where you are.

I use FF (no flight plan) plus carry a 406 MHz beacon with me.

Ron Lee

[Roger]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:43:58 -0600, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote:

>This is not a good thing. If the contact number is your home number I can
>just here the phone call.
>
>MY WIFE: Hello
>FSS: Yes has Mr Giacona arrived yet?
>MY WIFE: No
>FSS: OK Thanks

In my case it'd be:

My Wife: Hello
FSS: Has Mr Halstead arrived yet.
My Wife: No, He went flying today and probably won't be back until
tonight.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>My wife then begins to think I've crashed & burned, meanwhile I'm taxiing
>into my hanger 5 minutes behind schedule.



>
>
>
>"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
>news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
>> FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
>> BEFORE your ETA...
>>
>> Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
>> plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
>> says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
>> 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with
>> a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
>> (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual so
>> my buddy could see his house.)
>>
>> So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no idea
>> why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment to
>> ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
>> policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
>> call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
>>
>> Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
>> 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
>> call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm on
>> the ground.
>>
>> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>>
>> Jay Beckman
>> PP-ASEL
>> AZ Cloudbusters
>> Chandler, AZ
>> (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
>>
>

[Brien K. Meehan]

My dog is already way over his limit on minutes.

[Mike Adams]

George Patterson > wrote:

> Chris wrote:
>
>> here in the UK the way a VFR flight plan works is that the pilot
>> nominates a responsible person (family member, FBO etc) to make the
>> call if they are overdue rather than have the ATC make assumptions.
>> The basis is that no news is good news.
>
> That's the way most of us who don't file flight plans do things over
> here.
>
> George Patterson
> Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your
> neighbor. It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you
> miss him.

That's what I was going to say. We need to remember that the flight plan is only for SAR. It works just as
well to just tell someone where you're going. "Jay and I are going to Sedona for breakfast. We should be
there in about an hour. I'll call you when I get there."

Mike

[Montblack]

("B A R R Y" wrote)
> FSS called the FBO looking for a rental Warrior that wasn't due for at
> least 15 minutes from Martha's Vineyard. Right after the confused
> line guy hung up the phone, the Warrior entered the pattern. The line
> guy called him on the radio and told him FSS was looking for him.
>
> I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes...


Could a DST glitch explain it?

Let's see: 5 pm is now 4 pm.

If they (FSS) didn't "fall back" ...then you'd be an hour late every flight.
So they're not calling 15 minutes early, but rather 45 minutes after the
clock on their wall says you should be down.

Someone missed the 10-30-05 clock memo, that's all.


Montblack

[N93332]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("B A R R Y" wrote)
>> FSS called the FBO looking for a rental Warrior that wasn't due for at
>> least 15 minutes from Martha's Vineyard. Right after the confused
>> line guy hung up the phone, the Warrior entered the pattern. The line
>> guy called him on the radio and told him FSS was looking for him.
>>
>> I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes...
>
>
> Could a DST glitch explain it?
>
> Let's see: 5 pm is now 4 pm.
>
> If they (FSS) didn't "fall back" ...then you'd be an hour late every
> flight. So they're not calling 15 minutes early, but rather 45 minutes
> after the clock on their wall says you should be down.
>
> Someone missed the 10-30-05 clock memo, that's all.

Whenever I filed a flight plan (probably twice in the past 6 years?), it was
in GMT/Zulu/Universal time and not in local time. That's when my dual
timezone watch comes in handy...

[Morgans]

"N93332" > wrote

> Whenever I filed a flight plan (probably twice in the past 6 years?), it
was
> in GMT/Zulu/Universal time and not in local time. That's when my dual
> timezone watch comes in handy...

I have a watch with dual time zones that has the feature of keeping the
relative difference, between the two zones, unless you make an effort to
change just one zone. Is yours, by chance, like that?

Not to question your fault (or lack thereof), in this FUBAR. The 'guberment
(or private 'guberment) is capable of screw-ups on it's own, with no help
from you. <g>

Let's hope that this is the worst they do with the new system. This problem
can be quickly corrected. One quick law suit (by a lawyer who does not have
to pay a bunch to file it) for mental anguish because his/her spouse thinks
the significant other has crashed, just might do it.

Until then, pad your arrival time a bit?
--
Jim in NC

[Michael Ware]

To err is human, to royally screw up is government.

So, I gotta ask, what the hell is the purpose of calling well before a plane
is due? Are they just looking for something to do? Should we all just add 20
minutes to our ETE so they calls come when we are on the ground?

This has so much potential for disaster. These poor guys trying to run an
FBO are gonna get tired of answering phone calls looking for a plane that
isn't there, then arrives ten minutes later. Like crying wolf. So somebody
is gonna say 'sure, he just landed' and hang up and blow it off. Then what
if the pilot does have trouble?

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 00:39:35 -0600, "Montblack"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Could a DST glitch explain it?
> >
> >Let's see: 5 pm is now 4 pm.
> >
> >If they (FSS) didn't "fall back" ...then you'd be an hour late every
flight.
> >So they're not calling 15 minutes early, but rather 45 minutes after the
> >clock on their wall says you should be down.
> >
> >Someone missed the 10-30-05 clock memo, that's all.
> >
>
> Excellent point.
>
> The other day, a Duats showed many local ASOS reports as an hour off.

[Jose]

> Until then, pad your arrival time a bit?

.... with the effect of delaying real help when you really do need it.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[N93332]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> I have a watch with dual time zones that has the feature of keeping the
> relative difference, between the two zones, unless you make an effort to
> change just one zone. Is yours, by chance, like that?

I use a cheap Timex analog/digital watch. The digital is set to GMT and
24-hour format. I only change the analog (hands) in the spring and fall to
the local time. They're available for around $20 on eBay and will last for a
few years.

Did FSS turn back Zulu time too???

[Morgans]

"N93332" > wrote
>
> Did FSS turn back Zulu time too???

Yep, that Must be it! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Peter R.]

Lakeview Bill > wrote:

> By this reasoning, it would be appropriate for one to just make ALL of their
> landings "wheels up" because they from time to time forgot to verify that
> check list item.
>
> Over the years, I have read many statements where pilots stopped filing
> flight plans because they kept forgetting to close them. IMHO, this
> indicates a somewhat lackadaisical attitude. If they forget to close their
> flight plan, what else are they forgetting to do?

All of my forgetting to call FSS after landing and securing the aircraft
occurred within my first 40 hours after getting my private certificate.
Any pilot who states that he or she does not make varying degrees of
mistakes during this timeframe would be lying.

I won't speak for others, but for me, the first hundred hours of so of my
flying was such a new and different experience that sometimes it took me
two days to completely process each flight I took. My shirts always had
large wet spots under the arms as I was securing the aircraft.

Regarding closing a flight plan, I personally don't walk back to my car
with a "personal paper checklist" in my hand. At the time, the paper
checklist for all phases of flight (including preflight) was left in the
rental aircraft. To make the assumption that, because I forgot to call
FSS, I must therefore forget items off the paper checklist demonstrates
your unfamiliarity with the subject. No flame intended.

However, the fact that I did forget and receive a couple of phone calls
incited me to print off two 15 inch, bright red rectangles with the words
"CLOSE FLIGHT PLAN" in bold, white letters. I then covered these two
rectangles with packing tape (for durability) and secured one to my flight
bag. The other I placed above the sun visor. When I would fly VFR with a
plan I would lower the visor in my vehicle so that the words were facing me
(obviously this only worked for the return trip).

Soon thereafter I received my instrument rating and began flying most of my
cross country trips IFR. Closing an IFR flight plan after landing at an
uncontrolled airport creates much bigger problems, but these days the
experience of flying is not so overwhelming that I forget to close it.

> I have often heard that "the flight ain't over 'til the wheels are on the
> ground and the prop's stopped turning." A CFI friend of mind always added
> "and the flight plan is closed".

In theory, that is true. In reality, see above.

> Would it perhaps be better, instead of simply abandoning a safety measure
> because one forgets to properly use it, to develop the routine required to
> properly use the safety measure?

Carrying a PLB, using flight following, and choosing less ominous routes
are my replacement for the VFR flight plan. If I have no choice on the
routing (flying over mountainous terrain here in the US east coast), I
always file IFR.

--
Peter























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[Peter R.]

"Peter R." > wrote:

> Closing an IFR flight plan after landing at an
> uncontrolled airport creates much bigger problems,

Sorry, this should read, "FORGETTING to close an IFR flight plan at..."

--
Peter
























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[Tom]

You're first mistake. Filing a flight plan. I fly in and out of Sedona all
the time, and other areas around Arizona/New Mexico/Nevada and California.
The Gov knows too much about us VFR's already without complicating our lives
with pointless useless flight plans.

The argument that "someone will know where to look" doesn't wash.

John

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:DU8af.564$bo.388@fed1read01...
> FSS has a new trick, calling the contact number on your flightplan at or
> BEFORE your ETA...
>
> Landed at Sedona this morning, called 800-WX-Brief to close VFR flight
> plan, walked into the terminal building and the guy behind the FBO desk
> says Prescott FSS just called looking for me. Huh!?!?! I filed for
> 0730MST departure with an ETE of 50 minutes. Opened the flight plan with
> a wheels up time of 0755MST and landed at 0850MST...five minutes off
> (probably because we stayed under the PHX Class Bravo longer than usual so
> my buddy could see his house.)
>
> So, I called Precott and the gentleman to whom I spoke said he had no idea
> why they called looking for me so quick. Excused himself for a moment to
> ask around, then came back on the line to explain that this is now their
> policy and they will be calling pilots instead of waiting for pilots to
> call them. They will be calling At or BEFORE your ETA (his words...)
>
> Same thing on the return trip. Filed for an ETE of 1H05M and landed at
> 1H06M ... as I'm on the phone with ABQ (phone system shunted me there) my
> call waiting beeps and it's Prescott calling me to check and see if I'm on
> the ground.
>
> So, welcome to the new Lockheed/Martin world order...
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> AZ Cloudbusters
> Chandler, AZ
> (Now adding 10 minutes to all ETE calculations!)
>

[Tom]

Now I find myself agreeing with Jay Honeck, what's the world coming to?


John


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:f3caf.534634$xm3.77017@attbi_s21...
>> In all other cases, I rationalized that flying with flight following in
>> radar coverage negated the value of a VFR flight plan.
>
> Agree 100%.
>
> When flying in areas that have radar coverage -- and controllers who are
> actually willing to provide Flight Following, which is virtually
> everywhere in the Midwest outside of Chicago -- VFR flight plans are
> simply not worth the bother.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Now I find myself agreeing with Jay Honeck, what's the world coming to?

You've taken your first step toward enlightenment, John.

Or was that perdition?...I forget...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom]

I agree.

Am I the only person who filed two flight plans (if I remember the training
drill) for my short and long cross countries in 1962 - then have flown for
the following 43 years without filing a VFR plan?

I wonder how I ever survived.

John


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:z4gaf.3515$y23.3093@trndny08...
> Chris wrote:
>
>> here in the UK the way a VFR flight plan works is that the pilot
>> nominates a responsible person (family member, FBO etc) to make the call
>> if they are overdue rather than have the ATC make assumptions. The basis
>> is that no news is good news.
>
> That's the way most of us who don't file flight plans do things over here.
>
> George Patterson
> Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your
> neighbor.
> It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Peter R.]

Tom > wrote:

> The Gov knows too much about us VFR's already without complicating our lives
> with pointless useless flight plans.

But yet you will gladly accept VFR flight following (assumption based on
you agreeing with Jay)?

Those gov't types will certainly know about you then, right?

--
Peter
























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