Commuting in a plane...

[[email protected]]

Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?

This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern California so the weather is less of an issue.

What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?

Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...

Paul

[[email protected]]

Paul,

You might dig up some back issues of the various aviation magazines.
There have been a number of stories of folks who commute to work in
airplanes, most all are in the southwestern potion of the U.S. (read
arid areas), and a lot of them shared rides, so there were two - four
people in the airplane each way, keeping the cost down. Types tended
to be Cessna 172s or 182s although there were some Cherokees. For
commuting distance, the airplane speed doesn't matter a lot as a very
fast airplane only shaves a few minutes off the speed of a much slower
airplane.

Friend of mine is commuting one day a week in a Cessna 150 that is IFR
equipped. Hour and ten minute flight versus two hour forty minute
drive. He has an autogas STC, so the cost isn't all that bad. If
there are thunderstorms or ice, he drives.

All the best,
Rick

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?

Not daily, but I am commuting Monday, back Thursday. I have been doing
this weekly since late February of this year and in the Northeast US, where
weather is a factor. One-way distance is about 160nm.

Door to door time comparisons between flying and driving demonstrate that
in my case, flying is about 1/2 hour faster when considering the drive to
the airport, aircraft pre-flight, taxiing and departing the airport
(especially if it is a larger airport), taxi/tie-down/securing the
aircraft, and ultimately driving from the destination airport to the
office/site. Of course, I prefer flying over driving not for any small
time savings, but instead for the experience and thrill of the commute.

I know that southern CA traffic is bad, but have no idea to what degree. I
would estimate that you would need an automobile commute of about 1 1/2 to
2 hours to make flying a faster option, if time savings is your goal. What
is the duration of your typical 70 mile commute by car?

> This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern
> alifornia so the weather is less of an issue.

Where in S. California are your originating and destination airports?
My father used to live in San Diego and I recall experiencing many days of
"June Gloom," or low overcast and fog. At least near the coast, it seemed
that there were many IFR and low IFR days in southern CA.

> What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?

There used to be an occasional contributor to this group who commuted daily
in the southern CA area and, IIRC, he flew a Cardinal; that is, until he
had a catastrophic engine failure and landed in a school baseball field,
hitting the backstop. Fortunately, no one was killed, but last I read he
faced a lawsuit from one of his passengers.

Given the short distance, I would think a smaller Cessna or Piper would fit
that mission.

> Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...

Are you looking to make these factors comparable to driving, or just
comparable relative to any aircraft capable of such a mission?

For some numbers, a typical C172 or PA28 is about $55 to $75/hour to
operate and cruises between 110 and 125 knots. Thus, a 70 mile (statute?)
distance is around 38 minutes total flying time.

My Bonanza is approximately $150 or so to operate and cruises about 180
knots. It would make this commute in roughly 25 minutes or so, which goes
to show you that for such a short trip, there is not a great reduction in
time for the added cost when compared to the C172/PA28, especially over
many flights.

--
Peter
























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[Aluckyguess]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> > wrote:
>
>> Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?
>
> Not daily, but I am commuting Monday, back Thursday. I have been doing
> this weekly since late February of this year and in the Northeast US,
> where
> weather is a factor. One-way distance is about 160nm.
>
> Door to door time comparisons between flying and driving demonstrate that
> in my case, flying is about 1/2 hour faster when considering the drive to
> the airport, aircraft pre-flight, taxiing and departing the airport
> (especially if it is a larger airport), taxi/tie-down/securing the
> aircraft, and ultimately driving from the destination airport to the
> office/site. Of course, I prefer flying over driving not for any small
> time savings, but instead for the experience and thrill of the commute.
>
> I know that southern CA traffic is bad, but have no idea to what degree.
> I
> would estimate that you would need an automobile commute of about 1 1/2 to
> 2 hours to make flying a faster option, if time savings is your goal.
> What
> is the duration of your typical 70 mile commute by car?
>
>> This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern
>> alifornia so the weather is less of an issue.
>
> Where in S. California are your originating and destination airports?
> My father used to live in San Diego and I recall experiencing many days of
> "June Gloom," or low overcast and fog. At least near the coast, it seemed
> that there were many IFR and low IFR days in southern CA.
>
>> What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?
>
> There used to be an occasional contributor to this group who commuted
> daily
> in the southern CA area and, IIRC, he flew a Cardinal; that is, until he
> had a catastrophic engine failure and landed in a school baseball field,
> hitting the backstop. Fortunately, no one was killed, but last I read he
> faced a lawsuit from one of his passengers.
>
> Given the short distance, I would think a smaller Cessna or Piper would
> fit
> that mission.
>
>> Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...
>
> Are you looking to make these factors comparable to driving, or just
> comparable relative to any aircraft capable of such a mission?
>
> For some numbers, a typical C172 or PA28 is about $55 to $75/hour to
> operate and cruises between 110 and 125 knots. Thus, a 70 mile (statute?)
> distance is around 38 minutes total flying time.
>
> My Bonanza is approximately $150 or so to operate and cruises about 180

I thinking of buying a Bonanaza (currently own a P28-180) How did you come
up with the $150 hour cost to fly?


> knots. It would make this commute in roughly 25 minutes or so, which goes
> to show you that for such a short trip, there is not a great reduction in
> time for the added cost when compared to the C172/PA28, especially over
> many flights.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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[Mike W.]

For one or two people, on a 70 mile flight, a 150/152 or a Katana would be
inexpensive choices.

> wrote in message
...
> Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?
>
> This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern
California so the weather is less of an issue.
>
> What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?
>
> Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>

[Peter R.]

Aluckyguess > wrote:

> I thinking of buying a Bonanaza (currently own a P28-180) How did you come
> up with the $150 hour cost to fly?

My Bonanza burns about 16 gallons of fuel per hour at $4.50 per gallon
(average in the northeast US) = $72. Oil consumption right now is
negligible, perhaps one quart every 40 hours.

My Bonanza is equipped with a turbonormalized IO-520 engine with a 1,700
hour TBO. Having just replaced the over-TBO engine with a factory rebuilt
and rebuilt turbo components, I came up with a parts and labor per hour
engine reserve of about $21.

Insurance is about $3,000/year for a $180k hull (aircraft has TKS system,
young engine, new avionics, tip tanks, new paint) and my 300 hours of time
in type. Thus, if I fly about 250 hours per year (higher than average
given the cruise speed), this works out to $12/hour.

Hangar costs me $260/month, which is $12/hour. So what is that so far?
$105 per hour.

Oil changes, routine maintenance, and annuals have been running about $5000
per year, which is another $20/hour. I don't do much of my own maintenance
(oil changes, etc.) yet since time with my family right now is more
important than the $200 or so it costs me to have the mech. do it every 40
hours or so.

Avionics have been costing me about $2500/year right now (my Garmin GNS430
went TU twice in 14 months, naturally out of warranty both times, for a
total cost of around $1200 to have it repaired by Garmin). That works out
to $10./hr so now up to $135/hr.

It is worth noting that I have only owned the aircraft for about 1 1/2
years so I don't have a lot of data by which to base my maintenance and
avionics costs just yet.

And finally, as an owner of an aging aircraft, I am facing some of the long
term preventative maintenance items since my airframe has about 3900 hours
on it, such as replacement of the landing gear braces, aux fuel pump, fuel
bladders, etc. I have no idea of the per hour for this, but you can see I
am really close to $150 without even factoring in all of these costs.

Someone who flies less would easily hit the $150/hour mark, assuming
comparable insurance, hangar fees, and annual costs.


--
Peter
























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[A Lieberman]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:13:18 -0800, wrote:

> Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?

Hi Paul,

My job requires significant travel in "spurts".

For offices near by or less then 100 STATUTE miles, it does not pay for me
to fly. The time it takes to get to the airport, preflight, land, get a
car at the destination airport and drive to the office, it would be more
efficient for me to drive.

Offices over 100 STATUTE miles, then it pays for me to fly as these offices
would require an overnight and more then a 3 hours drive time round trip.
My furthest office is 540 statute miles round trip, and 260 NM round trip.
Kinda no brainer straight lines are more efficient and I get there in about
an hour's flight time. I get to sleep in my own bed that night too!

> What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?

I own a Sundowner which trues out at 110 knots.

> Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...

Hmmm, aviation and minimizing costs. Don't think that computes too well.
I do get re-imbursed $1.07 per nautical mile from my employer, which
definately covers my fuel and car rental expenses.

Hope this helps.

Allen

[Michelle P]

There are three people I know of in the Washington, DC area. One of the
is me. One uses a Cessna 150 and comes in from Hagerstown, MD to
College Park. Another Comes in from Orange, VA to Potomac Airfield
(temporarily closed by TSA). The last from Culpeper, VA to Hyde Field.

My drive would be 2:10 door to door, my flight 1:10 door to door each
way. Total gallons of fuel used is about the same weather I fly or
drive. However I get two hours a day back.
Michelle


wrote:

>Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?
>
>This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern California so the weather is less of an issue.
>
>What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?
>
>Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Michelle P]

Ok so it is getting late.
One commutes in a Cessna 150, One in a Cessna 182 and the last in a
Maule M-7.
Michelle

Michelle P wrote:

> There are three people I know of in the Washington, DC area. One of
> the is me. One uses a Cessna 150 and comes in from Hagerstown, MD to
> College Park. Another Comes in from Orange, VA to Potomac Airfield
> (temporarily closed by TSA). The last from Culpeper, VA to Hyde Field.
>
> My drive would be 2:10 door to door, my flight 1:10 door to door each
> way. Total gallons of fuel used is about the same weather I fly or
> drive. However I get two hours a day back.
> Michelle
>
>
> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?
>>
>> This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern
>> California so the weather is less of an issue.
>>
>> What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?
>> Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Sylvain]

Michelle P wrote:
> Ok so it is getting late.
> One commutes in a Cessna 150, One in a Cessna 182 and the last in a

but you do fly for a living, don't you? i.e., the door to door
scenario in your case involves an airport at one end, right? so
in that case I can see how it can definitely be advantageous; not
sure it works as well for someone who somehow has still to commute
to the airport at one end (unless you live in an airport community...),
and find a way from the airport to work at the other end...

--Sylvain

[[email protected]]

Peter,

You're doing well on your costs on your Bonanza. Around here
individual owners are figuring about $150-$200 per hour for their
Bonanzas (various versions), although one couple has a 1953 with the
225 hp engine that they manage to run for about $130 per hour.

All the best,
Rick

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> You're doing well on your costs on your Bonanza. Around here
> individual owners are figuring about $150-$200 per hour for their
> Bonanzas (various versions), although one couple has a 1953 with the
> 225 hp engine that they manage to run for about $130 per hour.

Rick, in your opinion what accounts for the difference between my costs and
the costs that the other owners (excluding the 1953 model) are incurring?

--
Peter
























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[Jose]

> My drive would be 2:10 door to door, my flight 1:10 door to door each way.
> Michelle

Well, don't you commute =to= an airport? That certainly helps. :)

Joes
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Aluckyguess]

Thanks.
Flying is just expensive. The Bonanza just flys so nice.
"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Aluckyguess > wrote:
>
>> I thinking of buying a Bonanaza (currently own a P28-180) How did you
>> come
>> up with the $150 hour cost to fly?
>
> My Bonanza burns about 16 gallons of fuel per hour at $4.50 per gallon
> (average in the northeast US) = $72. Oil consumption right now is
> negligible, perhaps one quart every 40 hours.
>
> My Bonanza is equipped with a turbonormalized IO-520 engine with a 1,700
> hour TBO. Having just replaced the over-TBO engine with a factory rebuilt
> and rebuilt turbo components, I came up with a parts and labor per hour
> engine reserve of about $21.
>
> Insurance is about $3,000/year for a $180k hull (aircraft has TKS system,
> young engine, new avionics, tip tanks, new paint) and my 300 hours of time
> in type. Thus, if I fly about 250 hours per year (higher than average
> given the cruise speed), this works out to $12/hour.
>
> Hangar costs me $260/month, which is $12/hour. So what is that so far?
> $105 per hour.
>
> Oil changes, routine maintenance, and annuals have been running about
> $5000
> per year, which is another $20/hour. I don't do much of my own
> maintenance
> (oil changes, etc.) yet since time with my family right now is more
> important than the $200 or so it costs me to have the mech. do it every 40
> hours or so.
>
> Avionics have been costing me about $2500/year right now (my Garmin GNS430
> went TU twice in 14 months, naturally out of warranty both times, for a
> total cost of around $1200 to have it repaired by Garmin). That works out
> to $10./hr so now up to $135/hr.
>
> It is worth noting that I have only owned the aircraft for about 1 1/2
> years so I don't have a lot of data by which to base my maintenance and
> avionics costs just yet.
>
> And finally, as an owner of an aging aircraft, I am facing some of the
> long
> term preventative maintenance items since my airframe has about 3900 hours
> on it, such as replacement of the landing gear braces, aux fuel pump, fuel
> bladders, etc. I have no idea of the per hour for this, but you can see I
> am really close to $150 without even factoring in all of these costs.
>
> Someone who flies less would easily hit the $150/hour mark, assuming
> comparable insurance, hangar fees, and annual costs.
>
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
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> Newsgroups
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> =----

[[email protected]]

Peter,

Don't know for sure other than the folks with the older airplane do a
lot of the work themselves under the supervision of their mechanic and
its fuel burn is less; plus they haven't had too many avionic problems.
I keep hearing the others bemoaning various and sundry ills, fuel
controllers, avionics, just unsceduled maintenance to the tune of $500
or so each month.

All the best,
Rick

[Michelle P]

Yes I do fly "for a Living" So one door is an airport.
One of the people come into College park which has a Metro stop right
off the end of the runway.
The other keep an airport car at one end.
Michelle

Sylvain wrote:

> Michelle P wrote:
>
>> Ok so it is getting late.
>> One commutes in a Cessna 150, One in a Cessna 182 and the last in a
>
>
> but you do fly for a living, don't you? i.e., the door to door
> scenario in your case involves an airport at one end, right? so
> in that case I can see how it can definitely be advantageous; not
> sure it works as well for someone who somehow has still to commute
> to the airport at one end (unless you live in an airport community...),
> and find a way from the airport to work at the other end...
>
> --Sylvain

[Greg Farris]

I think a big part of the equation is you have to "want" to do it.

Many of the planes we fly today were designed, if not built, at a time when
freeways were few and average road speed was probably 35MPH - less in remote
areas. Airplane speeds of 110KT were a huge gain, and 180Kt was just
phenomenal. The speed of powerful piston singles and twins at the time rivaled
that of the day's airliners (DC-3's). People also did shorter pre-flight
preparation and accepted risk differently (sounds strange - some will disagree
- but I believe this to be true). The extra cost was easily justified because
the time savings, even on 100nm trips was prodigious.

Today, you'll find many mission statements that "sort of" work. If you've got
just the right distance, airplane, weather scenario etc, and poor enough
alternative transportation between your destination points you may have an
argument. Southern Calif is a contender for this, because of the traffic
situation, and certainly it is the spot on the planet with the greatest number
of "personal" air commuters.

Few mission statements today can honestly argue cost savings - and not that
many even amount to much time saved. Factor-in the hassle of not having your
car when you get where you're going, plus the fact that weather can ground you
at either end (and every incremental step at overcoming this doubles your
operating cost) and what you come down to is - for those who do it, there's a
whole lot more enjoyment and satisfaction involved in getting somewhere in
your plane than in crawling along studying someone else's bumber stickers for
a few hours.

G Faris

[Greg Farris]

(answering, in true, egocentric fashion to his own post). . .
>

there's a
>whole lot more enjoyment and satisfaction involved in getting somewhere in
>your plane than in crawling along studying someone else's bumber stickers for
>a few hours.


Or sitting in a crowded airport lounge listening to them make up excuses for
why your plane will be delayed another two hours, and wondering if those
screaming babies will be in the seat behind you. . .

I know many people who say "Flying is work. It tires you out when you're fresh
- why would you want, at the end of the day, after being beaten up in
meetings, to have to do all that work just to get home, when you can simply
board an airliner, get a drink, then a taxi home. . ."

It's all about the satisfaction. To me anyway - the satisfaction of the
successfully completed return flight cancels out the frustration and boredom
of the endless meetings, budgets, schedules etc.

The flight itself forces you to push all that crap out of your mind, and
concentrate on what you're doing. When I fly others I try to enforce a "no
shop talk" environment - from the time the engines start, we only talk about
the flight.

G Faris

[Malcolm]

Michelle P wrote:
> Ok so it is getting late.
> One commutes in a Cessna 150, One in a Cessna 182 and the last in a
> Maule M-7.
> Michelle


Well, don't forget to wave to all us frustrated commuters down below
you wondering who's flying on a nice work morning. <grin> (Or perhaps
there's people who LIKE commuting, but I've never met one.) At least
I've got a Prius now!

-Malcolm

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:13:18 -0800, wrote:

>Has anyone here done a daily commute in a plane?
>
>This would be a commute of about 70 miles and it would be in Southern California so the weather is less of an issue.
>
>What aircraft would be best for this kind of cummute?
>
>Trying to maximize speed and minimize costs...

For a commute of 70 miles, the true airspeed of the plane is not a
significant factor. Most of your time will be spent getting to/from
the airport, handling fueling, preflighting, etc.

[[email protected]]

>>>>For one or two people, on a 70 mile flight, a 150/152 or a Katana would be inexpensive choices<<<<

At 5gph & 110kt an early Rotax-powererd Katana wouldn't be a bad
choice.

[Michelle P]

Listen to WTOP between 8-10 in the morning and your will hear me fly
the airplane. I try to be quiet when the observer is broadcasting but
sometime ATC calls and it can't wait.
Michelle

Malcolm wrote:

>Michelle P wrote:
>
>
>>Ok so it is getting late.
>>One commutes in a Cessna 150, One in a Cessna 182 and the last in a
>>Maule M-7.
>>Michelle
>>
>>
>
>
>Well, don't forget to wave to all us frustrated commuters down below
>you wondering who's flying on a nice work morning. <grin> (Or perhaps
>there's people who LIKE commuting, but I've never met one.) At least
>I've got a Prius now!
>
>-Malcolm
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Michelle,

>>airport car at one end<<

You just reminded me that a friend of mine spent a few years during the
'90s commuting from Chino to Burbank in his Cessna 195. At Burbank he
had a Hudson Hornet as his airport car, for the short drive to his
business. About as classic commute as one could ask, other than the
vehicle at the Chino end was a relatively current pickup truck.

He didn't have an instrument rating, so there were days he was very
late getting into work or couldn't go at all, or was forced into a 2.5
hour drive one way.

All the best,
Rick

[[email protected]]

For a commute of 70 miles, the true airspeed of the plane is not a
significant factor. Most of your time will be spent getting to/from
the airport, handling fueling, preflighting, etc.


A dozen or so years ago I was working temporarily in San Bernardino,
while living in Santa Barbara. I looked into using my plane for
commuting (and even tried it once). I concluded that it just wasn't
worth it over so short a distance (in spite of having to cross the
L.A. basin). The difference in door-to-door time was about half an
hour. One problem was that the S.B. airport was 15 miles in the wrong
direction from my house. Another was that I was going East in the
morning and West in the evening (sun in the face both ways). Now, if I
had lived on (or near) one airport and worked on (or near) another, it
would have been a different matter.

David Johnson