Bird strike(s)

[Jay Honeck]

Paraphrased from Sport Aviation this month:

Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound weight
10 feet.

Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.

We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on our
field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks of
migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks like
a bird sanctuary.

I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me while
on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...

Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
to share?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Javier Henderson]

> We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on our
> field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks of
> migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks like
> a bird sanctuary.

It probably looks just as inviting to the birds as it does to us! You
know, big open spaces and all...

> I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
> dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
> the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me while
> on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

Yes, but the federales won't let you mount gatling guns on your
Cherokee. Plus even if they did, you know they neighbors and PETA will
complain.

-jav

[Jim Burns]

Yep, I hit what we think was a red tailed hawk at 3000 ft in a C182, right
in the windshield at 140 kts. Sounded like a shotgun went off inside the
cabin. Saw the bird about a nano-second before the BOOM. Didn't leave a
scratch on the plane, but guts were smeared up over the cabin roof and a few
fine feathers were jambed up between the windshield and the cabin roof. The
angle of the windshield of the 182 was pretty shallow and the bird hit up
near the top.

Also, in an Archer, I injested a small sparrow type bird into the air intake
on take off. Never knew it until after I landed and was taking a student
through a pre-flight lesson.

One other occassion I came close to hitting a pair of sandhill cranes while
practicing maneuvers. I'd guess they came within about 10 feet of the
wingtip, I could see their eyes easy enough, then watched them tumble away
from me as I flew past them.

Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:rVHbf.520936$x96.436058@attbi_s72...
> Paraphrased from Sport Aviation this month:
>
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound
weight
> 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.
>
> We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on
our
> field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks of
> migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks
like
> a bird sanctuary.
>
> I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
> dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
> the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me
while
> on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Stubby]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Paraphrased from Sport Aviation this month:
>
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound weight
> 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.
>
> We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on our
> field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks of
> migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks like
> a bird sanctuary.
>
> I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
> dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
> the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me while
> on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

It brings to mind the old story of the testing (FAA?) done with a gun
that would shoot a chicken at a windshield. Unfortunately an
inexperienced tester bought a frozen chicken. (The momentum impulse
depends on the velocity, mass and compressibility.)

[Longworth]

Jay,
I was told that birds like to dive down so the best way to avoid
hitting them is to pull the nose up. However, I have also read that
this may or may not work with different types of birds. I guess the
next best thing is to say a prayer providing that you have enough time
;-)

Hai Longworth

[Bob Chilcoat]

I was flying under the NY Class B near the Tappan Zee bridge a couple of
years ago. There was quite a bit of turbulence so it was difficult to hold
altitude better than 50-100 feet or so. Suddenly (I think I must have been
in some sink at the time) I was looking eyeball to eyeball with a flock of
6-10 Canada Geese, who seemed to appear from nowhere from below the
glareshield. They were slightly to my right, so I banked hard left, and
they did the same thing, I only had a second or so to watch them, but I
will never forget the expression on their faces. I swear they had their
tongues stuck in the sides of their beaks as they concentrated on the
maneuver. I could almost hear them shouting "Turn! Turn! Turn! as they
banked hard to their left, still in formation. We passed with ten feet or
so to spare. I was shaking for five minutes after that one.

An Aztec crashed a few years ago near here. The tailfeathers were found a
quarter mile from the rest of the airframe. There were no feathers or
blood, but the horizontal stabilizer had a big dent in it consistant with a
bird strike. Took the whole tail off. Be careful out there.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:rVHbf.520936$x96.436058@attbi_s72...
> Paraphrased from Sport Aviation this month:
>
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound
> weight 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.
>
> We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on
> our field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get
> flocks of migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place
> looks like a bird sanctuary.
>
> I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
> dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
> the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me
> while on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Paraphrased from Sport Aviation this month:
>
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound weight
> 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.
>
> We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on our
> field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks of
> migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks like
> a bird sanctuary.
>
> I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
> dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
> the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me while
> on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

Start shooting. They'll get the idea.

[sfb]

What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a golf
ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.

"Newps" > wrote in message
>
> Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>

[Longworth]

Here are links to bird strike avoidance advices and information

https://www.avemco.com/briefingroom/birdstrikes.asp
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Aerodrome/WildlifeControl/BirdAvoidance.htm
http://www.int-birdstrike.com/links.html
http://www.geoinsight.com/Projects/USAF/Academy/BAM.cfm

Hai Longworth

[Dale]

In article <rVHbf.520936$x96.436058@attbi_s72>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:


>
> Anyone ever hit a bird?

Took a seagull in the upper left corner of the windshief on a Cessna
150. Very loud noise, no damage.

Flew the 182 right through a flock of geese. No solid impact but felt
the yoke "pulse". Blood and feathers at the top of both wing struts,
big blood streak across top of stab and elevator. No damage.

Took what I think was a grouse to the nose turret on the B-24. Big
thump and some "stuff" flew by my window. No damage, just had to scrape
feathers and "stuff" off the turret.

I saw a hole that was punched in the leading edge of the stab of a 737
by a duck.

I use my landing light inflight (supposed to help with birds) and keep a
sharp eye out for them taking evasive action if needed.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[John Gaquin]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:rVHbf.520936
>
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound
> weight 10 feet.

Probably a good deal worse. Consider Atlas sitting still, and a 10lb goose
hitting your windshield at 125 kt.

>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

All some time ago: 1. returning LGA-EWB w/ 1 pax late evening in a c402
at 7500 ft, about 170 kt, iirc. Terrifically loud boom, like a gunshot,
woke us both up <bg>. No damage, but some light smearing near the top of
the windshield. Windshield on 402 is quite slanted.

2. Landing EWB in a 402, had a flock of gulls rise up and cross my path
right to left just as i was flaring (about 80kt). heard and felt several
loud, solid thumps. later counted eight impact points, five on the stbd
wing leading edge. required replacement of leading edge assy. got a note
from the owner in my next paycheck lambasting me, insisting that birdstrikes
are "pilot error", and we must give the gulls right-of-way. I still have
the note.

3. a good friend at the same commuter took off one day EWB-LGA in a
Bandierante and caught a gull just on the top of the nose assy just after
t/o. the bird slid up the nose and snagged and eviscerated itself on the
Cpt windshield wiper assy. Nice view all the way to NYC.

Never had a strike I was aware of in transports.

You can be cautious, and try to avoid or observe areas with known bird
problems, but in my opinion, unless you are well trained and skilled at
judging relative speed and motion of two moving bodies, trying to take
evasive action can be more dangerous than the strike itself.

[Scott Skylane]

Jay Honeck wrote:

/snip/
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

I have been told that evidence indicates aircraft with operating weather
radars (i.e. turned "on") have statistically fewer bird strikes. FWIW.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Newps]

That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small airports
near here. You get permission from your state, which ours readily gave,
then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some, you bother the
rest. Took a couple of weeks and haven't seen them since.



sfb wrote:

> What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a golf
> ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
>
>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>>
>
>
>

[Maule Driver]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound weight
> 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.
>
I smacked a Canadian during an off field landing in a glider. $500
worth of wing tip damage and a dead goose...

I lined up to land on the lawn of a corporate office park in NJ. I saw
the flock of geese around the small pond. My intent was fly my pattern
around them, overfly them and land further up the slope. As I turned
final, the flock took off flying into the wind along my final path.
Their climbing formation intersected by glide path about 20 feet AGL. A
perfect horizon of geese. I almost closed my eyes and then THUMP.

I thought I got one on the tail but it turned out to be a tip. I rolled
to a stop and started dreading the task of having to go back and
administer the coup de grace to a flopping, wounded goose.

When I got out and started back there was only a lifeless lump. But a
car had stopped and the driver had already jumped the guardrail and was
walking towards the goose. Having watched the landing and the
collision, he kept saying something about me being in trouble for
landing here and that I should go to the guard booth.

I was in glider outlanding mode which means smiling a lot and making it
clear that there is no problem. But he just kept heading towards the
goose. He got their first and to my surprise, he scooped it up and
headed back to his car, leaving me standing in the middle of the lawn
wondering what was going on.

He threw it his trunk, got back in the car and drove off. Goose dinner
I guess.

No, I don't know what exit it was.


> We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on our
> field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks of
> migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks like
> a bird sanctuary.
>
> I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange Cessna
> dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing in
> the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me while
> on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
>
> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

[Jim Burns]

Sheesh! Glad he didn't care if you and the plane were ok!! Makes you want
to call him up the next time you hit a skunk with your car.
Jim

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound
weight
> > 10 feet.
> >
> > Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.
> >
> I smacked a Canadian during an off field landing in a glider. $500
> worth of wing tip damage and a dead goose...
>
> I lined up to land on the lawn of a corporate office park in NJ. I saw
> the flock of geese around the small pond. My intent was fly my pattern
> around them, overfly them and land further up the slope. As I turned
> final, the flock took off flying into the wind along my final path.
> Their climbing formation intersected by glide path about 20 feet AGL. A
> perfect horizon of geese. I almost closed my eyes and then THUMP.
>
> I thought I got one on the tail but it turned out to be a tip. I rolled
> to a stop and started dreading the task of having to go back and
> administer the coup de grace to a flopping, wounded goose.
>
> When I got out and started back there was only a lifeless lump. But a
> car had stopped and the driver had already jumped the guardrail and was
> walking towards the goose. Having watched the landing and the
> collision, he kept saying something about me being in trouble for
> landing here and that I should go to the guard booth.
>
> I was in glider outlanding mode which means smiling a lot and making it
> clear that there is no problem. But he just kept heading towards the
> goose. He got their first and to my surprise, he scooped it up and
> headed back to his car, leaving me standing in the middle of the lawn
> wondering what was going on.
>
> He threw it his trunk, got back in the car and drove off. Goose dinner
> I guess.
>
> No, I don't know what exit it was.
>
>
> > We've got large flocks of (what appear to be) sea gulls congregating on
our
> > field over the last few weeks. At this time of year we also get flocks
of
> > migratory birds (ducks and geese) stopping over, too. The place looks
like
> > a bird sanctuary.
> >
> > I've come very close to hitting birds, but (knock on a burnt-orange
Cessna
> > dashboard) thus far have gotten away clean. Last night, while landing
in
> > the last glint of twilight, I saw a very large bird go zinging past me
while
> > on short final. There was nothing I could do but cringe...
> >
> > Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd
care
> > to share?

[Andrew Gideon]

Jim Burns wrote:

> Sheesh!Â*Â*GladÂ*heÂ*didn'tÂ*careÂ*ifÂ*youÂ*andÂ*t heÂ*planeÂ*wereÂ*ok!!

Hmm. I wonder what would have been for dinner had the pilot been hurt.

- Andrew

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
[clipped]
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound
> weight 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.

> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?


I read an article few years ago about a bird watcher in Israel who
contacted the military after hearing about their bird strike problems. The
person had been studying migratory flocks of birds in Israel for decades.

It seems Israel is the flyway for three continents. There are more birds per
square mile over that region than anywhere else in the world - when they're
migrating. His solution for fewer damaged and destroyed aircraft was
migratory maps with historic dates, altitudes and flying condition overlays.

Military said they saw an immediate reduction (something like 50%) in
aircraft losses when they stopped flying where the flocks historically fly.
One pilot said the daily 'bird maps' are an important part of each
pre-flight now.

Israel and hundreds of millions of birds. Who knew? But I guess it makes
sense when you look at a globe.


Montblack

[Jim Burns]

"I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. While the goose
had given me visions of a lovely golden roasted breast and some delicious
foie gras, the pilot, now devoid from his machine, was much easier to
catch."

Jim

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Jim Burns wrote:
>
> > Sheesh! Glad he didn't care if you and the plane were ok!!
>
> Hmm. I wonder what would have been for dinner had the pilot been hurt.
>
> - Andrew
>

[sfb]

Right, there are guys with dogs that given permission of the state will
harass the geese until they leave. Shooting at the geese doesn't do it.

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small airports
> near here. You get permission from your state, which ours readily
> gave, then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some, you bother
> the rest. Took a couple of weeks and haven't seen them since.
>
>
>
> sfb wrote:
>
>> What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a
>> golf ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.
>>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>>
>>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>>>
>>
>>

[Stubby]

Years ago, Hanscom Field in Bedford, MA employed jeeps to disperse the
Canada geese.


sfb wrote:
> Right, there are guys with dogs that given permission of the state will
> harass the geese until they leave. Shooting at the geese doesn't do it.
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small airports
>>near here. You get permission from your state, which ours readily
>>gave, then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some, you bother
>>the rest. Took a couple of weeks and haven't seen them since.
>>
>>
>>
>>sfb wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a
>>>golf ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.
>>>
>>>"Newps" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

[sfb]

That just chases away from places jeeps can go. If you want them totally
off the property, dogs.

"Stubby" > wrote in message
. ..
> Years ago, Hanscom Field in Bedford, MA employed jeeps to disperse the
> Canada geese.
>
>
> sfb wrote:
>> Right, there are guys with dogs that given permission of the state
>> will harass the geese until they leave. Shooting at the geese doesn't
>> do it.
>>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small
>>>airports near here. You get permission from your state, which ours
>>>readily gave, then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some,
>>>you bother the rest. Took a couple of weeks and haven't seen them
>>>since.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>sfb wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a
>>>>golf ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.
>>>>
>>>>"Newps" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>

[Jim Burns]

LAX is using trained falcons and dogs.
Jim

"sfb" > wrote in message news:d9Qbf.9085$dU6.6820@trnddc03...
> That just chases away from places jeeps can go. If you want them totally
> off the property, dogs.
>
> "Stubby" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Years ago, Hanscom Field in Bedford, MA employed jeeps to disperse the
> > Canada geese.
> >
> >
> > sfb wrote:
> >> Right, there are guys with dogs that given permission of the state
> >> will harass the geese until they leave. Shooting at the geese doesn't
> >> do it.
> >>
> >> "Newps" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >>
> >>>That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small
> >>>airports near here. You get permission from your state, which ours
> >>>readily gave, then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some,
> >>>you bother the rest. Took a couple of weeks and haven't seen them
> >>>since.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>sfb wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a
> >>>>golf ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.
> >>>>
> >>>>"Newps" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>
>

[Maule Driver]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Jim Burns wrote:

>>Sheesh! Glad he didn't care if you and the plane were ok!!
>
> Hmm. I wonder what would have been for dinner had the pilot been hurt.
>
If I had been less tongue tied, I like to think I would have told him,
"EAT ME"

[Denny]

The highest-flying bird ever recorded was a Ruppell's griffon, a
vulture with a wingspan of about 10 feet; on November 29, 1975, a
Ruppell's griffon was sucked into a jet engine 37,900 feet above the
Ivory Coast--more than a mile and a half higher than the summit of
Mount Everest. The plane was damaged, though it landed safely.

See:
http://magazine.audubon.org/birds/birds0011.html

denny

[.Blueskies.]

They even authorize these 'hunts' in a bird sanctuary:

http://www.alpena.mi.us/newsreleases/Goose%20Hunt%202004.pdf


"Newps" > wrote in message . ..
> That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small airports near here. You get permission from your state,
> which ours readily gave, then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some, you bother the rest. Took a couple of
> weeks and haven't seen them since.
>
>
>
> sfb wrote:
>
>> What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a golf ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat
>> and crap.
>>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>>
>>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>>>
>>
>>

[Michael 182]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:31:56 -0500, "John Gaquin"
> wrote:

>
>
>You can be cautious, and try to avoid or observe areas with known bird
>problems, but in my opinion, unless you are well trained and skilled at
>judging relative speed and motion of two moving bodies, trying to take
>evasive action can be more dangerous than the strike itself.

I agree - I'm always amazed at how difficult it is to judge closing
speeds and relative positions with soaring hawks - they change
direction and altitude so quickly with no visual clues.

However, you probably can't depend on the bird to take appropriate
evasive action. Birds evolved flying skills and maneuvers that didn't
have to deal with anything like an airplane. Kind of like hitting a
mammal with your car - you can't really expect that the
deer/raccoon/skunk etc. will be smart enough to avoid your 60 MPH
vehicle. I suspect the reason number of bird strikes is so low is
mainly because the big sky theory is at work to protect us 99.9% of
the time.


Michael

[zatatime]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:38:48 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
>to share?

My friend hit a goose in a Bonanza. 10,000 dollars later he had a
rebuilt wing. After studying it a bit we learned (fo geese) never
dive away as he did. They'll think you're the lead bird and follow.
A high performance plane can out climb a goose and is a preferred
technique. Other birds I'm not sure about.

Part of his story was watching the geese literally fold up their wings
and fall like a rock to keep up with him.

z

[[email protected]]

Jay
As posted here and on the rotorcraft boards over the past couple years,
I've had hundreds of bird strikes but the vast majority were below
200'agl. Some interesting stories out of them and some wisdom gained.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Roger]

On 7 Nov 2005 06:50:05 -0800, "Longworth" >
wrote:

>Jay,
> I was told that birds like to dive down so the best way to avoid
>hitting them is to pull the nose up. However, I have also read that
>this may or may not work with different types of birds. I guess the
>next best thing is to say a prayer providing that you have enough time

Think of it this way. Ducks and Seagulls are brainless. Geese will
try to avoid you except a flight of them believe they have the
"right-of-way". <:-)) Everything else is unpredictable.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>;-)
>
>Hai Longworth

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:rVHbf.520936$x96.436058@attbi_s72...
> Paraphrased from Sport Aviation this month:
>
> Hitting a Canada Goose exerts the same force as dropping a 1000 pound
> weight 10 feet.
>
> Yikes! That would make mince-meat out of ANY GA aircraft.

It would if the claim were true. But a little high-school physics shows it's
not. (And knowing that it's not could bear on important choices you make
while flying--if the claim were true, you'd want to choose almost any
alternative to such a collision.)

Assuming the same compressibility, the forces of the two collisions would be
proportionate to the colliding objects' respective momenta. After dropping
ten feet, an object has a velocity of about 15 knots; hence, a 1000-pound
weight has a momentum of 15,000 knot-pounds. A Canada Goose weighs up to 14
pounds; hence, at (say) 120 knots, its momentum is at most 1,680
knot-pounds--about an order of magnitude less than what's asserted above. If
the 1000-pound weight is harder (less compressible) than the goose, then the
asserted comparison is wrong by an even greater factor.

--Gary

[[email protected]]

Jay
Amended response. In my exhburance I meant to say over a hundred bird
strikes...NOT HundredS!
The vast majority of them occured during crop dusting/spraying ops in
both phyxed wing and rotorcraft over the past 40+ years.
Ol Shy & Bashful
p.s. One of the most unusual was a mallard hen that came thru the
bubble into the Hiller I was flying, and continued to fly around in the
cabin!

[George Patterson]

sfb wrote:

> Right, there are guys with dogs that given permission of the state will
> harass the geese until they leave.

Border collies do the best job of this, once you convince them that that's what
they're supposed to do.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Jim Logajan]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote:
> Assuming the same compressibility, the forces of the two collisions
> would be proportionate to the colliding objects' respective momenta.
> After dropping ten feet, an object has a velocity of about 15 knots;
> hence, a 1000-pound weight has a momentum of 15,000 knot-pounds. A
> Canada Goose weighs up to 14 pounds; hence, at (say) 120 knots, its
> momentum is at most 1,680 knot-pounds--about an order of magnitude
> less than what's asserted above. If the 1000-pound weight is harder
> (less compressible) than the goose, then the asserted comparison is
> wrong by an even greater factor.

The goose and falling weight do, however, strike with comparable kinetic
energies:

E_goose = 0.5*14*120*120
= 100,800

E_wt = 0.5*1000*15*15
= 112,500

So maybe this is why Sport Aviation claims the strikes are comparable. If I
recall correctly, damage is roughly proportional to energy of impact, not
momentum. (Based on the theory of spring deflection, I believe: Suppose the
object (goose or large weight) strikes a compression spring. The spring
would compress to about the same amount because the spring equation,
E_spring = k_spring_constant * X_deflection, shows the linear
proportionality between energy and compression.)

[Jay Honeck]

> "I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. While the goose
> had given me visions of a lovely golden roasted breast and some delicious
> foie gras, the pilot, now devoid from his machine, was much easier to
> catch."

Hannibal the Cannibal Burns?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[customairmodels]

Very true. Before your aircraft becomes mince-meat. It would be nice to have custom built model of your aircraft. Something to be proud of everytime you walk into your living room or study.

www.customairmodels.com

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
>> Border collies do the best job of this, once you convince them that
>> that's what they're supposed to do.

> It has been my experience (owner of 2 of 'em) that they need no
> convincing.
> They try to heard stuff, by instinct, and since geese don't "like to be
> herded," they fly away. <g>


Nop's Trials
Donald McCaig
Publisher: HarperCollins Publishers (June 4, 1984)
ISBN: 0002227665

Read this book years ago, kind of a Black Beauty for Border Collies.


Montblack

[Morgans]

"George Patterson" > wrote

> Border collies do the best job of this, once you convince them that that's
what
> they're supposed to do.

It has been my experience (owner of 2 of 'em) that they need no convincing.
They try to heard stuff, by instinct, and since geese don't "like to be
herded," they fly away. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Gary Drescher]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> The goose and falling weight do, however, strike with comparable kinetic
> energies:
>
> E_goose = 0.5*14*120*120
> = 100,800
>
> E_wt = 0.5*1000*15*15
> = 112,500
>
> So maybe this is why Sport Aviation claims the strikes are comparable. If
> I
> recall correctly, damage is roughly proportional to energy of impact, not
> momentum. (Based on the theory of spring deflection, I believe: Suppose
> the
> object (goose or large weight) strikes a compression spring. The spring
> would compress to about the same amount because the spring equation,
> E_spring = k_spring_constant * X_deflection, shows the linear
> proportionality between energy and compression.)

Yup, good point. If the goose exerted the same force as the falling weight,
the goose's energy would be much greater than the falling weight's; instead,
the goose exerts far less force, but its energy is comparable to the falling
weight's.

--Gary

[Jim Burns]

I caught the end of another Hannibal movie last night that I didn't even
know existed, Red Dragon. Now I'll have to rent it so I can watch the first
3/4 of it. It ended like it was a pre-courser to Silence of the Lambs.

Jim


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:gPVbf.530854$_o.217690@attbi_s71...
> > "I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. While the
goose
> > had given me visions of a lovely golden roasted breast and some
delicious
> > foie gras, the pilot, now devoid from his machine, was much easier to
> > catch."
>
> Hannibal the Cannibal Burns?
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[abripl]

Anybody notice the goose strike last thursday by a Boeing 737 at
FL360??? See
http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/D_1104_N.txt

How can they fly at 36,000? Hardly any oxygen and really freezing.

[Jim Logajan]

Jim Logajan > wrote:
> If I recall correctly, damage is roughly proportional to energy of
> impact, not momentum. (Based on the theory of spring deflection, I
> believe: Suppose the object (goose or large weight) strikes a
> compression spring. The spring would compress to about the same amount
> because the spring equation, E_spring = k_spring_constant *
> X_deflection, shows the linear proportionality between energy and
> compression.)

Oops! What I wrote here is wrong. The equation E = k*X is only true for a
rare breed of springs known as constant force springs . For conventional
Hook's law springs (F = k*X), the equation is of course E = 0.5*k*X^2.

So if E_kinetic = 0.5*m*V^2 and E_spring = 0.5*k*X^2, and the two energies
are set equal, after a little algebra the deflection is found:

X = V*sqrt(m/k)

So by the spring theory, damage WOULD be linearly propotional to the speed
while proportional to the square root of the mass - i.e. doesn't rise as
fast. Given the earlier example:

X_goose = 120*sqrt(14/k) ~= 449 * sqrt(1/k)
X_wt = 15*sqrt(1000/k) ~= 474 * sqrt(1/k)

Hmmm - interesting that they are still comparable with this selection of
weights and speeds!

A spring loaded measuring tape is the most commonly known household
example of an item that has a constant-force spring in it. The restoring
force is the same no matter how far you pull the tape out.

[AJ]

You'd think the birds would learn to look out for you! :)

AJ

[Gary Drescher]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> So by the spring theory, damage WOULD be linearly propotional to the speed
> while proportional to the square root of the mass - i.e. doesn't rise as
> fast. Given the earlier example:
>
> X_goose = 120*sqrt(14/k) ~= 449 * sqrt(1/k)
> X_wt = 15*sqrt(1000/k) ~= 474 * sqrt(1/k)
>
> Hmmm - interesting that they are still comparable with this selection of
> weights and speeds!

The new numbers are just the square roots of double the old numbers, so
they're pretty much guaranteed to still be comparable. :-)

--Gary

[Dave]

Well..... watch for them, ours just left Thursday, about 10 PM, last
seen heading 225, 25 knts and climbing......

And the local dogs have learned to leave them alone... the hard way..
:)

Dave

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:53:09 GMT, "sfb" > wrote:

>Right, there are guys with dogs that given permission of the state will
>harass the geese until they leave. Shooting at the geese doesn't do it.
>
>"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>> That's how we got rid of the Canada Geese at one of our small airports
>> near here. You get permission from your state, which ours readily
>> gave, then you harass the hell out of them. You kill some, you bother
>> the rest. Took a couple of weeks and haven't seen them since.
>>
>>
>>
>> sfb wrote:
>>
>>> What idea? I've seen Canadian Geese get knocked off their feet by a
>>> golf ball, roll-over, get up, and continue to eat and crap.
>>>
>>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>Start shooting. They'll get the idea.
>>>>
>>>
>>>

[Bob Martin]

> Anyone ever hit a bird? Anyone got a good bird avoidance plan they'd care
> to share?

I've noticed most of the larger birds tend to tuck their wings and dive
when startled...

Also, we had a guy in our hangar take a small songbird-type right into
one of the air inlets of his RV-4... he spent a week cleaning bird guts
from between the cylinder fins. We ended up putting a bird silhouette
under the canopy.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Jim Burns wrote:
> I caught the end of another Hannibal movie last night that I didn't even
> know existed, Red Dragon. Now I'll have to rent it so I can watch the first
> 3/4 of it. It ended like it was a pre-courser to Silence of the Lambs.

Theres two flavors of that one out:

Manhunter (1986)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0091474

Red Dragon (2002)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0289765