The right way?

[Steve]

Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the nose
wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not perfect.
Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since very
seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
technic or am I missing something?

[Matt Whiting]

Steve wrote:
> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
> some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
> attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
> instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the nose
> wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
> warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
> somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not perfect.
> Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
> runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since very
> seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
> technic or am I missing something?

It is a matter of continued practice. However, pretty much nobody gets
greasers all of the time. It is pretty hard for a human to react to a
gust of wind right before touchdown.

Matt

[Bob Gardner]

Be happy. You only get a greaser if you are a tad too fast. A max efficiency
landing is a plunker, and if there is any water on the runway it is just
what the doctor ordered.

Bob Gardner

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
> some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
> attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
> instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the
> nose
> wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
> warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
> somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not perfect.
> Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
> runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since very
> seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
> technic or am I missing something?

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Steve > wrote:

> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
> some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
> attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
> instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the nose
> wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
> warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
> somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not perfect.
> Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
> runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since very
> seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
> technic or am I missing something?


That is the best way to land under normal circumstances. Remember: the
nose gear is NOT a LANDING gear! Too often I see Bonanza drivers (some
of them high-time airline types) carrying 90 kt or more on approach and
landing with very little flare.

The old Bonanzas would fly a very nice approach at 8-85 mph and
three-point all the time.

The exceptions to the above are:

1. high crosswinds, where you keep the speed up and land with power and
reduced (or no) flap
2. short field
3. soft field
4. windshear conditions
5. airframe ice
6. landing into the setting sun, where you fly a very flat approach and
feel the for runway.
7. probably a few conditions that I missed.

Yes, you can make three-point squeakers, but not all the time!

[Andrew Sarangan]

Sounds like you are leveling off a tad too high. Since you have been
used to making flat landings, the new sight picture (or lack of) is
probably making all the difference. Instead of looking straight ahead,
try to look sideways. Use your peripheral visiion to focus some
attention on the pavement through your side window.

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:

> Sounds like you are leveling off a tad too high. Since you have been
> used to making flat landings, the new sight picture (or lack of) is
> probably making all the difference. Instead of looking straight ahead,
> try to look sideways. Use your peripheral visiion to focus some
> attention on the pavement through your side window.

This also referred to as the taildragger technique. :-)

[Roger]

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 00:24:24 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Steve > wrote:
>
>> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
>> some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
>> attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
>> instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the nose
>> wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
>> warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
>> somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not perfect.
>> Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
>> runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since very
>> seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
>> technic or am I missing something?
>
>
>That is the best way to land under normal circumstances. Remember: the
>nose gear is NOT a LANDING gear! Too often I see Bonanza drivers (some
>of them high-time airline types) carrying 90 kt or more on approach and
>landing with very little flare.
>
>The old Bonanzas would fly a very nice approach at 8-85 mph and
>three-point all the time.
>
>The exceptions to the above are:
>
>1. high crosswinds, where you keep the speed up and land with power and

No need to keep the speed up in cross winds unless they are gusty and
half the gust component is fine.

You can still keep the nose gear off the pavement down to about 40 MPH
even with cross winds near the planes limit.

>reduced (or no) flap

I find full flaps work really well in a Bo in Windy conditions. You
are down and slow in very short order.

I find that no flaps are dangerous. That is one way to get a Bo to
float and it leaves you at the mercy of the cross winds far longer
than normal. With no flaps the Deb uses a *lot* of runway.


>2. short field

Slower yet, steep with lots of power, land on the mains, let the nose
down, get on the brakes, and then full up elevator to put pressure on
the mains.

>3. soft field

Slow with power, nose high, and taxi with the weight off the nose
gear.

>4. windshear conditions

Yes (half the gust component)

>5. airframe ice

Double yes

>6. landing into the setting sun, where you fly a very flat approach and
>feel the for runway.

I fly these the same as any other landing other than looking out the
side rather than into the sun. I use my peripheral vision to judge
height.

>7. probably a few conditions that I missed.
>
>Yes, you can make three-point squeakers, but not all the time!

Three point squeakers are hard on the nose gear. Nose gear is
expensive, fragile, and for steering once you are too slow to keep it
in the air. Main gear is rugged for landing.

According to the Air Safety Foundation and American Bonanza Society,
most Bo pilots land far faster than necessary.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Peter R.]

Roger > wrote:

> According to the Air Safety Foundation and American Bonanza Society,
> most Bo pilots land far faster than necessary.

That was certainly true of the previous owner of my V35B. I received quite
a tongue-lashing from him one dual flight when the stall warning went off
just as the mains touched down during my landing.

He always crossed over the fence at 90 to 100 kts and always lifted off the
runway at 80 kts. Anything less he believed was stall and fall territory.

--
Peter
























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[Mike Rapoport]

Actually a max performance short field landing can be a greaser....I have
done it...once.

Mike
MU-2



"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Be happy. You only get a greaser if you are a tad too fast. A max
> efficiency landing is a plunker, and if there is any water on the runway
> it is just what the doctor ordered.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
>> some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
>> attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
>> instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the
>> nose
>> wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
>> warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
>> somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not
>> perfect.
>> Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
>> runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since
>> very
>> seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
>> technic or am I missing something?
>
>

[Gene Seibel]

If we did it perfectly, we wouldn't have an excuse to go try again,
would we? ;)
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[BTIZ]

I was taught:
1) to run out of excess altitude and excess airspeed at the same time you
reach the appropriate part of the runway on which to land... a greaser as it
were...

2) nose wheels were not made to be landed on.. damage to many a cezzna
firewall has been the result.. also nose collapse on Beech Sports and
Sundowners... Grumman AA1As don't like nose strikes either.. landing "on all
three" can result in flat spot on main tires with locked up brakes with
C-182s.... I can't think of one airplane that likes to lead nose wheel first
on landing

3) excess speed in the "flare" results in excess "float" in ground effect,
which results in a forced landing (more prone to nose strikes) and excess
wear on the brakes before meeting the trees at the far end of the runway..

4) floating down short runways in a cross wind is not a fun event just
because you carried an extra 5 knots for mamma and each kid...

5) tires and brakes with grass do not mix... they slide off each other...
right into the trees at the far end...

just a few... I'll see what else I can remember..
BT
"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of landing with a
> some throttle still in (instead of power idle) and with little pitch
> attitude. But the landings were always pretty smooth. Now I do what the
> instructor taught me: cut off all power before threshold and raise the
> nose
> wheel well up in the air during flare. In the final part I get the stall
> warning tweet (as the instructor told it should be) and the result is a
> somewhat rude main gear contact if the timing of the flare is not perfect.
> Sure the plane stops in very little space (we operate on a 2000 feet
> runway), but I get the feeling that I don't do it the right way since very
> seldom I grease it out as I did before. Is just a matter of refining the
> technic or am I missing something?

[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

> He always crossed over the fence at 90 to 100 kts and always lifted off the
> runway at 80 kts.
>

"Driving it onto the runway" is the most adapt description I have heard...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "Steve" == Steve > writes:

Steve> Back in the training days of my PPL I had the bad habit of
Steve> landing with a some throttle still in (instead of power
Steve> idle) and with little pitch attitude. But the landings were
Steve> always pretty smooth.

Go back to doing it your way; it's not a bad habit. Later you will
realize that much of what is taught is simply an individual preference
rather than fundamental necessity.

Some will complain that you will not be prepared for a forced landing
by always landing with power. Well, you can practice the occasional
power-off landing, just as you will occasionally do stalls, steep
turns, and so on, but will not do them on every flight.

[[email protected]]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> Sounds like you are leveling off a tad too high. Since you have been
> used to making flat landings, the new sight picture (or lack of) is
> probably making all the difference. Instead of looking straight ahead,
> try to look sideways. Use your peripheral visiion to focus some
> attention on the pavement through your side window.

I've read a number of sources that advocate looking to the side as the
runway dissapears under the nose in landing attitude and my instructor
has told me the same. I find that even when my instructor is landing
the plane (so I'm _sure_ it's in the correct attitude) I can still see
the runway over the nose.

He also told me where the horizon should pass through the glare sheild
in level flight and other attitude short cuts. These things don't line
up for me. But, I have looked over at him and I sit up a few inches
higher. I also find that the rear view mirror in almost every car is
right in my line of sight.

Nobody seems to address this. I'm landing OK for a mid time student
(~35 hours, ~150 landings) and I can still see the runway over the
nose, even when I get the stall beep just at touchdown. This sight
picture has to be different for different folks based on eye height
over the seat. Am I that strange? I'm only 5' 11".

John Stevens
Solo Student, ~35 hours

[Jay Beckman]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>> Sounds like you are leveling off a tad too high. Since you have been
>> used to making flat landings, the new sight picture (or lack of) is
>> probably making all the difference. Instead of looking straight ahead,
>> try to look sideways. Use your peripheral visiion to focus some
>> attention on the pavement through your side window.
>
> I've read a number of sources that advocate looking to the side as the
> runway dissapears under the nose in landing attitude and my instructor
> has told me the same. I find that even when my instructor is landing
> the plane (so I'm _sure_ it's in the correct attitude) I can still see
> the runway over the nose.
>
> He also told me where the horizon should pass through the glare sheild
> in level flight and other attitude short cuts. These things don't line
> up for me. But, I have looked over at him and I sit up a few inches
> higher. I also find that the rear view mirror in almost every car is
> right in my line of sight.
>
> Nobody seems to address this. I'm landing OK for a mid time student
> (~35 hours, ~150 landings) and I can still see the runway over the
> nose, even when I get the stall beep just at touchdown. This sight
> picture has to be different for different folks based on eye height
> over the seat. Am I that strange? I'm only 5' 11".
>
> John Stevens
> Solo Student, ~35 hours
>

C172? How high/low do you have the seat adjusted and do you remember to
always set the same seat height each time you fly?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

[john smith]

John, where do you live?
Find an airport that rents taildraggers, preferably a Cub, and get a
couple of hours dual with you flying from the back seat.
I promise you, you will learn to use your peripheral vision and keep the
nose up to land.

[Morgans]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> John, where do you live?
> Find an airport that rents taildraggers, preferably a Cub, and get a
> couple of hours dual with you flying from the back seat.
> I promise you, you will learn to use your peripheral vision and keep the
> nose up to land.

OK, I'll bite. Why is this skill so much more important in the Cub, so much
so that he will learn this skill, only in a Cub? (or so implied)
--
Jim in NC

[Bob Martin]

> The exceptions to the above are:
>
> 1. high crosswinds, where you keep the speed up and land with power and
> reduced (or no) flap
> 2. short field
> 3. soft field
> 4. windshear conditions
> 5. airframe ice
> 6. landing into the setting sun, where you fly a very flat approach and
> feel the for runway.
> 7. probably a few conditions that I missed.

8. Taildragger wheel landings--by far easier than the "normal" full-stall.

[john smith]

> > John, where do you live?
> > Find an airport that rents taildraggers, preferably a Cub, and get a
> > couple of hours dual with you flying from the back seat.
> > I promise you, you will learn to use your peripheral vision and keep the
> > nose up to land.

> OK, I'll bite. Why is this skill so much more important in the Cub, so much
> so that he will learn this skill, only in a Cub? (or so implied)

Jim, have you ever flown from the back seat of a Cub and done full stall
landings? The Cub nose stands pretty tall.
Even in the backseat of a Champ, I can still see forward pretty well.

[john smith]

In article >,
Bob Martin > wrote:

> > The exceptions to the above are:
> >
> > 1. high crosswinds, where you keep the speed up and land with power and
> > reduced (or no) flap
> > 2. short field
> > 3. soft field
> > 4. windshear conditions
> > 5. airframe ice
> > 6. landing into the setting sun, where you fly a very flat approach and
> > feel the for runway.
> > 7. probably a few conditions that I missed.

> 8. Taildragger wheel landings--by far easier than the "normal" full-stall.

Also easier to drop it and bounce it depending on type of gear. I do not
necessarily think that wheel landings are easier. I do not use wheel
landings unless the airplane has a serious tailwheel shimmy or during a
strong crosswind to assist in lateral control.

[W P Dixon]

I did a few of those wheel landings Saturday!2.3 more hours in the wind! I
do know what you're saying John Smith. I was in the front seat of a Cub and
could not see out front. Had to make those S turns in taxi , and the guy
that was PIC used the open door as his stall indicator of sorts on landing.
When the open door started rising he said it was ready to land. ;) System
worked very nice for him , perfect three pointers! We did one two wheel
landing and the visibility was alot better that way, but as soon as the
tail goes down it's back to trying to see out of the sides.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Bob Martin > wrote:
>
>> > The exceptions to the above are:
>> >
>> > 1. high crosswinds, where you keep the speed up and land with power and
>> > reduced (or no) flap
>> > 2. short field
>> > 3. soft field
>> > 4. windshear conditions
>> > 5. airframe ice
>> > 6. landing into the setting sun, where you fly a very flat approach and
>> > feel the for runway.
>> > 7. probably a few conditions that I missed.
>
>> 8. Taildragger wheel landings--by far easier than the "normal"
>> full-stall.
>
> Also easier to drop it and bounce it depending on type of gear. I do not
> necessarily think that wheel landings are easier. I do not use wheel
> landings unless the airplane has a serious tailwheel shimmy or during a
> strong crosswind to assist in lateral control.

[[email protected]]

Jay Beckman wrote:
[my message snipped]
>
> C172? How high/low do you have the seat adjusted and do you remember to
> always set the same seat height each time you fly?
>
As far as I know, the 172 I fly does not have a seat height adjustment.
Only back and forth. So, yes, it's always set at the same height. I'll
check the POH when I get home tonight and see if I've just missed this
adjustment. For me, it dosen't seem a problem, I can see and land fine.
I just sit "tall in the saddle" so to speak.

In another plane (Piper Cub, for instance) it would be _very_
different. I've talked to my dad (who learned in a Cub) and flown it in
MS FS. _No_ visibility out the front unless the tail is up.

John Stevens
Solo Student, ~35 hours
(and weather permitting, I'll get some more tommorrow! Yipee!)