IFR with a VFR GPS

[Wizard of Draws]

OK, I broke down and sprung for the Lowrance Airmap 2000c instead of the
1000. Wow.

Normally I rent a plane that has a panel-mounted IFR certified Garmin 430,
but that may change due to circumstances beyond my control in a few months.

Obviously I can't file /G IFR without a proper IFR GPS, but this one will be
used as a backup and for cross-reference at the very least.

So...do I tell a briefer to note that I have a VFR GPS and will the
controllers take note, sending me direct, off airways? Will it make any
difference to them at all? Given the fact that nearly everyone has one
nowadays, will they assume I have a GPS even if I don't indicate it?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[John Theune]

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> OK, I broke down and sprung for the Lowrance Airmap 2000c instead of the
> 1000. Wow.
>
> Normally I rent a plane that has a panel-mounted IFR certified Garmin 430,
> but that may change due to circumstances beyond my control in a few months.
>
> Obviously I can't file /G IFR without a proper IFR GPS, but this one will be
> used as a backup and for cross-reference at the very least.
>
> So...do I tell a briefer to note that I have a VFR GPS and will the
> controllers take note, sending me direct, off airways? Will it make any
> difference to them at all? Given the fact that nearly everyone has one
> nowadays, will they assume I have a GPS even if I don't indicate it?
When I'm asked if I can go direct, I tell them I can follow vectors very
precisely. In the north east where there is very good radar coverage
that seems to work well.
John

[kontiki]

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> So...do I tell a briefer to note that I have a VFR GPS and will the
> controllers take note, sending me direct, off airways? Will it make any
> difference to them at all? Given the fact that nearly everyone has one
> nowadays, will they assume I have a GPS even if I don't indicate it?

Probably. Jeff I've filed direct a few times and been cleared and I
haven't mentioned anything but /U. I've also asked for direct while
enroute once or twice and have been asked by ATC if I can go direct
while enroute also. So I don't really think it matters if you do or
you don't. If it works out better for them and you are direct capable
its a win/win situation.

[[email protected]]

>>>>Probably. Jeff I've filed direct a few times and been cleared and I
haven't mentioned anything but /U. I've also asked for direct while
enroute once or twice and have been asked by ATC if I can go direct
while enroute also. So I don't really think it matters if you do or
you don't. If it works out better for them and you are direct capable
its a win/win situation. <<<<

I have a Garmin 150XL (VFR) in the Lance and I take direct routings to
fixes when offered. The 150XL has all IFR fixes even though it's a VFR
unit. When IFR I file / India as if I had RNAV equipment.

[Kelly]

> OK, I broke down and sprung for the Lowrance Airmap 2000c instead of the
> 1000. Wow.
>
> Normally I rent a plane that has a panel-mounted IFR certified Garmin 430,
> but that may change due to circumstances beyond my control in a few
months.
>
> Obviously I can't file /G IFR without a proper IFR GPS, but this one will
be
> used as a backup and for cross-reference at the very least.
>
> So...do I tell a briefer to note that I have a VFR GPS and will the
> controllers take note, sending me direct, off airways? Will it make any
> difference to them at all? Given the fact that nearly everyone has one
> nowadays, will they assume I have a GPS even if I don't indicate it?

I fly with a Garmin 296 on the yoke, the airplane is equipped /A
(transponder and DME), and I always put "VFR GPS" in the remarks section on
the advice of an air traffic controller friend. Since then, I routinely get
cleared direct to fixes way down the road and outside normal VOR navaid
coverage, so I can only assume they are seeing and using the remarks. Many
times, they clear me without me even asking, like to the initial
intersection of a STAR at my destination airport.

[[email protected]]

>>>>I always put "VFR GPS" in the remarks section on the advice of an air traffic controller friend.<<<<

Good idea - I wonder why *my* ATC pals haven't suggested this before...

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Good idea - I wonder why *my* ATC pals haven't suggested this before...
>

Probably because it's unnecessary. If you want direct just file direct.

[Dave]

Exactly how we felt after a flight with our new AM2000C..

We getting the terrain database in a coupla weeks..then loading the
mapcreate maping...

Dave

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:54:32 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>OK, I broke down and sprung for the Lowrance Airmap 2000c instead of the
>1000. Wow.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 11/9/05 11:48 PM, in article ,
"Dave" > wrote:

> Exactly how we felt after a flight with our new AM2000C..
>
> We getting the terrain database in a coupla weeks..then loading the
> mapcreate maping...
>
> Dave
>
> On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:54:32 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> > wrote:
>
>> OK, I broke down and sprung for the Lowrance Airmap 2000c instead of the
>> 1000. Wow.
>

The terrain database is pretty neat. I drove over a nearby hill with it in
Aviation mode and zoomed in fairly tight, and as soon as I started up the
hill the screen turned red, indicating everything around me was above my
altitude.
I'm planning to take it for a first flight on Saturday morning and give it a
better workout.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Robert M. Gary]

Tell the briefer to note "VFR GPS on board" in the notes. You should be
able to get direct clearances with that (I've often had ATC give me
directs to intersections with this). You can also go direct just by
shooting star locations, its up to you what you use.

[Robert M. Gary]

> Probably because it's unnecessary. If you want direct just file direct.

Out West direct for the entire flight is not usually possible with
non-turbo aircraft. What usually happens is when you get half way in
the middle of no-where on an airway, the controller will send you
direct to some intersection because he knows you are now far enough way
to avoid the mountain rather than have to continue to fly down the
airway until you get to the next intersection. Besides, I can't
remember the last time I was actually given the route I filed. I've
tried to second guess the routes in the Bay Area and L.A (even the
central valley) but they seem to change on a daily basis (probably
depending on which way each airport is landing jets). When flying into
SoCal you usually get an "updated" routing about 1/2 way down. That
routing is usually longer than the amount of space you have on your
flight plan (bring extra paper to write it all down).
-Robret

[[email protected]]

Jeff,

This isssue has been addressed in IFR Magazine a number of times. In a
nutshell, you cannot use the VFR GPS as a "primary" navaid. However,
you can go dead reckoning if you wish when IFR. So, if you want to put
something in remarks, that's fine. Once enroute, if you want to go
direct, ask for a radar vector of ___ degrees, direct to ____. You are
then cleared via radar vector (all of it has to be in a radar
environment) and you are using the GPS as a backup, which is perfectly
legal. The controller gets a benefit because you suggest the heading
and you get off of his or her screen faster because you are going
direct.

For filing it doesn't hurt to file radar vectors to your destination
and note the VFR GPS in remarks.

Check out back issues of IFR Magazine for a fuller discussion. Also
check AVweb as I recall that one of John Deakin's columns addressed
this matter.

All the best,
Rick

[Robert M. Gary]

I"m not sure why the "radar vectors" are required since the controller
doesn't need to read you a heading. Just ask for direct to foobar, if
you get it, fly direct foobar. If the FAA asks you how you navigated
there just tell them you were taking star shots like a pirate, it
really doesn't make a difference. There are lots of stories of military
and commercial pilots (not even too far back) that would fly direct in
IMC just using a wizwheel. Nothing prevents that today.

-Robert

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Out West direct for the entire flight is not usually possible with
> non-turbo aircraft.
>

So what would be the purpose of putting "VFR GPS" in the remarks section for
such flights?


>
> What usually happens is when you get half way in
> the middle of no-where on an airway, the controller will send you
> direct to some intersection because he knows you are now far enough way
> to avoid the mountain rather than have to continue to fly down the
> airway until you get to the next intersection.
>

So why don't you file that?


>
> Besides, I can't
> remember the last time I was actually given the route I filed. I've
> tried to second guess the routes in the Bay Area and L.A (even the
> central valley) but they seem to change on a daily basis (probably
> depending on which way each airport is landing jets). When flying into
> SoCal you usually get an "updated" routing about 1/2 way down. That
> routing is usually longer than the amount of space you have on your
> flight plan (bring extra paper to write it all down).
>

So what effect would putting "VFR GPS" in the remarks section have on that?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> This isssue has been addressed in IFR Magazine a number of times. In a
> nutshell, you cannot use the VFR GPS as a "primary" navaid. However,
> you can go dead reckoning if you wish when IFR. So, if you want to put
> something in remarks, that's fine. Once enroute, if you want to go
> direct, ask for a radar vector of ___ degrees, direct to ____. You are
> then cleared via radar vector (all of it has to be in a radar
> environment) and you are using the GPS as a backup, which is perfectly
> legal. The controller gets a benefit because you suggest the heading
> and you get off of his or her screen faster because you are going
> direct.
>
> For filing it doesn't hurt to file radar vectors to your destination
> and note the VFR GPS in remarks.
>

You don't have to play any games with "radar vectors" nor do you have to put
anything in remarks. If you want to go direct then just file direct. It
doesn't matter what you're using for navigation, just be able to fly what
you file.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> I"m not sure why the "radar vectors" are required since the controller
> doesn't need to read you a heading.
>

"Radar vectors" isn't required.


>
> Just ask for direct to foobar, if
> you get it, fly direct foobar. If the FAA asks you how you navigated
> there just tell them you were taking star shots like a pirate, it
> really doesn't make a difference.
>

You could just tell them you used a handheld GPS.


>
> There are lots of stories of military
> and commercial pilots (not even too far back) that would fly direct in
> IMC just using a wizwheel. Nothing prevents that today.
>

Exactly.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 11/11/05 1:16 PM, in article
. com,
" > wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> This isssue has been addressed in IFR Magazine a number of times. In a
> nutshell, you cannot use the VFR GPS as a "primary" navaid. However,
> you can go dead reckoning if you wish when IFR. So, if you want to put
> something in remarks, that's fine. Once enroute, if you want to go
> direct, ask for a radar vector of ___ degrees, direct to ____. You are
> then cleared via radar vector (all of it has to be in a radar
> environment) and you are using the GPS as a backup, which is perfectly
> legal. The controller gets a benefit because you suggest the heading
> and you get off of his or her screen faster because you are going
> direct.
>
> For filing it doesn't hurt to file radar vectors to your destination
> and note the VFR GPS in remarks.
>
> Check out back issues of IFR Magazine for a fuller discussion. Also
> check AVweb as I recall that one of John Deakin's columns addressed
> this matter.
>
> All the best,
> Rick
>

Thanks for the recommendation, but I think the discussion in
rec.aviation.ifr is quite enough. I hadn't intended to start such a long
thread, I just wanted a few real-world experiences.

In anticipation of not using GPS as my primary nav, I've been boning up on
my VOR nav skills and the NDB approaches with X-Plane since the Arrow I've
been flying doesn't have an ADF to play with. Especially since the NDB is
the only option open into 47A (Canton, GA) without an IFR GPS. An ILS is
scheduled, but that's a few years until it becomes reality.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Matt Barrow]

" > wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> This isssue has been addressed in IFR Magazine a number of times. In a
> nutshell, you cannot use the VFR GPS as a "primary" navaid. However,
> you can go dead reckoning if you wish when IFR. So, if you want to put
> something in remarks, that's fine. Once enroute, if you want to go
> direct, ask for a radar vector of ___ degrees, direct to ____. You are
> then cleared via radar vector (all of it has to be in a radar
> environment) and you are using the GPS as a backup, which is perfectly
> legal. The controller gets a benefit because you suggest the heading
> and you get off of his or her screen faster because you are going
> direct.
>
> For filing it doesn't hurt to file radar vectors to your destination
> and note the VFR GPS in remarks.
>
> Check out back issues of IFR Magazine for a fuller discussion. Also
> check AVweb as I recall that one of John Deakin's columns addressed
> this matter.

That'd be http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182076-1.html

[Robert M. Gary]

>> I"m not sure why the "radar vectors" are required since the controller
>> doesn't need to read you a heading.

>"Radar vectors" isn't required.

I thought that was what I was saying. Maybe I wasn't clear. I was
referring to the previous poster's comments of asking for "radar
vectors" and stating that you can come up with your own heading, you
don't need ATC to give you one.

[Robert M. Gary]

> So what would be the purpose of putting "VFR GPS" in the remarks section for
> such flights?

I usually start out filing mostly direct (other than through the passes
and mountains). ATC always says no and gives a bunch of airways
depending on where all the jet arrivals are. Having "VFR GPS" seems to
help in that the controllers will often offer me ad-hoc "short cuts" in
the airway routing when there are holes in the arrivals.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

>>>>You don't have to play any games with "radar vectors" nor do you have to put
anything in remarks. If you want to go direct then just file direct.
It
doesn't matter what you're using for navigation, just be able to fly
what
you file.<<<<

I don't bother trying to file "direct" as here in the northeast I'd
never get it. Besides, I never file above 7000ft and I end up with a
canned TEC routing anyway. I've been asked on several occasions by ATC
if I'm able direct to (fill in the blank) and the Garmin 150XL can take
me right to the intersection/fix.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I thought that was what I was saying.
>

I can't know your thoughts, I have to go with what you write.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> So what would be the purpose of putting "VFR GPS" in the remarks section
>> for
>> such flights?
>>
>
> I usually start out filing mostly direct (other than through the passes
> and mountains). ATC always says no and gives a bunch of airways
> depending on where all the jet arrivals are. Having "VFR GPS" seems to
> help in that the controllers will often offer me ad-hoc "short cuts" in
> the airway routing when there are holes in the arrivals.
>

Filing mostly direct (other than through the passes and mountains) should be
enough to tell the controller you can navigate direct.