Looking for a sub-100hp engine with long TBO time.

[tffy]

This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
overhauled?

Thanks!

[Anthony W]

Check out the Honda four stroke personal watercraft engines. They're
powerful and designed to run at full load for extended lengths of time.
However, you'd have to use a reduction unit to get the RPM down low
enough to drive a prop.

Tony

tffy wrote:
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

[Lakeview Bill]

Why not just go with a Jabiru 2200?

A TBO of 2000 hours currently applies, with a top end TBO of 1000 hours. A
TBO of 2000 hours currently applies, with a top end TBO of 1000 hours.

Air cooled + no redrive = simple.

Reasonably priced.


"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

[Anthony W]

I was wrong about those four stroke personal watercraft engines. The
Honda engine is rated at 137HP and the Yamaha engines are rated at 110
to 160HP. All of these are much bigger than you were looking for.

Tony

tffy wrote:
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

[Rob Turk]

"Lakeview Bill" > wrote in message
. ..
> Why not just go with a Jabiru 2200?
>
> A TBO of 2000 hours currently applies, with a top end TBO of 1000 hours. A
> TBO of 2000 hours currently applies, with a top end TBO of 1000 hours.
>
> Air cooled + no redrive = simple.
>
> Reasonably priced.
>

Good suggestion! Should do very well for an ultralight.

Rob

(Ouch, someone mentioned Jabiru... I'm waiting in suspense for the response
of Bret L...)

[tffy]

Thanks for that suggestion, will check it out. Still looking for other
options out there though! :)

[tom pettit]

You should check out the Rotax 912. It is 80hp, four stroke, and weighs
about 125 pounds. It has a TBO of 1500 hours.

tom pettit


"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

[tffy]

Thanks! There isn't anything 2-cylinder available in this power range
(or perhaps less, all the way down to 60hp), is there? The a/c
performance can afford to be somewhat anemic, while mounting space is
at a premium. :)

[Vaughn]

"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?

Beemer? http://www.microlightsport.co.uk/Catalogue/bmwengine.htm I have
spent thousands of hours riding on top of my BMW engine, and often thought that
I wouldn't mind flying behind one. That said, they have never been terribly
popular with homebuilders for some reason.

Vaughn

[Jim Carriere]

tffy wrote:
> Thanks! There isn't anything 2-cylinder available in this power range
> (or perhaps less, all the way down to 60hp), is there? The a/c
> performance can afford to be somewhat anemic, while mounting space is
> at a premium. :)

The most popular 2-cylinder in this range is the 65hp Rotax 582 (and its
big brother the 75hp 618), but these are two strokes with relatively
short TBO, two things you are trying to avoid. Besides, I don't think
the aircraft 618 is made anymore.

[Morgans]

"Anthony W" > wrote in message
news:gQPcf.7191$vC6.670@trnddc05...
> Check out the Honda four stroke personal watercraft engines. They're
> powerful and designed to run at full load for extended lengths of time.
> However, you'd have to use a reduction unit to get the RPM down low
> enough to drive a prop.

I think I am correct in saying that others have tried using a boat type
powerplant before, and have found problems, especially with keeping them
cool.

With a closed loop (most engines not on the water) water cooled engine, the
engine sees cooling water at a pretty low temperature. They usually have
unregulated flow, and unlimited water, so the cooling passages don't have to
be very large, or move the water very fast to be effective in keeping the
engine cool. Closed loop systems see water coming in at around 180 degrees,
so the flow has to pass through quickly and soak up as much heat as they
can, but are not able to take on much more heat. (because of it's already
high temperature) The passages have to be larger, and contact more of the
hot parts to remove enough heat to keep the engine cool.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Vaughn" > wrote
>
> Beemer? http://www.microlightsport.co.uk/Catalogue/bmwengine.htm I
have
> spent thousands of hours riding on top of my BMW engine, and often thought
that
> I wouldn't mind flying behind one. That said, they have never been
terribly
> popular with homebuilders for some reason.

Partially because the engine and transmission share a case, so it makes them
heavy. That said, some are being used.
--
Jim in NC

[dje]

Maybe this?

http://www.hexatronengineering.com/prod02.htm

David


"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

[Jim Carriere]

dje wrote:
> Maybe this?
>
> http://www.hexatronengineering.com/prod02.htm

Looks great on paper--really great. The website hasn't been updated in
a long time though, not exactly confidence inspiring. Click on "News
Briefs & Articles" and you get:



Web Changes

March 2001:

We are slowly making changes to our site that will allow for uniformity
and clarity.




Recent Media Coverage
EAA Oshkosh 2000 Coverage
Copperstate 2000 Fly-In
2001 Sun 'N Fun

[UltraJohn]

Jim Carriere wrote:

> dje wrote:
>> Maybe this?
>>
>> http://www.hexatronengineering.com/prod02.htm
>
> Looks great on paper--really great. The website hasn't been updated in
> a long time though, not exactly confidence inspiring. Click on "News
> Briefs & Articles" and you get:
>
>
>
>


http://www.ultralightflyer.com/airventure_05/hexadyne-aircraft_engine.html

This is a reference of them having it at Airventure 2005

[GTH]

tffy a écrit :
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

Hi,

In the 80 hp 4-stroke range, you'll find only the Jabiru 2200 and the
Rotax 912. Only those engines do have demonstrated in-flight reliability
and substantial TBOs.
Others engines CAN be installed, but be prepared to spend LOTS of time
sorting out cooling and installation problems.
It takes many test-cell and flight-test hours to make a reliable engine
out of a prototype.
And many many engine overhauls to ensure an acceptable TBO.
Besides, most road vehicle or boat engines are heavy. Remembers road
engines are designed to run at relatively low engine power settings,
with the occasional short burst at full power.

On the other hand, aero engines spend their operational life running at
60-75 % power.

My two cents,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr

[Philippe Vessaire]

tffy wrote:

> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke,

http://www.rotaryengines.ca/main/about.htm

http://www.rotaryengines.ca/main/aircraft.htm


Is these guys deliver any engine?


by
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Jerry Deckard]

I think the Yamaha engines are the same that are in snowmobiles. The snow
version would be closed loop.
Jerry

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Anthony W" > wrote in message
> news:gQPcf.7191$vC6.670@trnddc05...
>> Check out the Honda four stroke personal watercraft engines. They're
>> powerful and designed to run at full load for extended lengths of time.
>> However, you'd have to use a reduction unit to get the RPM down low
>> enough to drive a prop.
>
> I think I am correct in saying that others have tried using a boat type
> powerplant before, and have found problems, especially with keeping them
> cool.
>
> With a closed loop (most engines not on the water) water cooled engine,
> the
> engine sees cooling water at a pretty low temperature. They usually have
> unregulated flow, and unlimited water, so the cooling passages don't have
> to
> be very large, or move the water very fast to be effective in keeping the
> engine cool. Closed loop systems see water coming in at around 180
> degrees,
> so the flow has to pass through quickly and soak up as much heat as they
> can, but are not able to take on much more heat. (because of it's already
> high temperature) The passages have to be larger, and contact more of the
> hot parts to remove enough heat to keep the engine cool.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Jerry Deckard]

HKS, 4 stroke, 2 cyclinder, 60 HP.
Jerry
"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks! There isn't anything 2-cylinder available in this power range
> (or perhaps less, all the way down to 60hp), is there? The a/c
> performance can afford to be somewhat anemic, while mounting space is
> at a premium. :)
>

[Awsome]

You can try Honda CX500 engine, V-shaped, 2 cylinder, foure stroke water
cooled, less then 100hp. This engine was used in Honda CX 500 motor cycle. A
turbo charged engine is also available. Dirt cheap price and available on
ebay for even less then $100-200.

Here is the link for ebay if you are interested to see this engine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-HONDA-CX500-SLIVERWING-RUNS-GREAT-LOW-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ4589383806QQcategoryZ6708QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks! There isn't anything 2-cylinder available in this power range
> (or perhaps less, all the way down to 60hp), is there? The a/c
> performance can afford to be somewhat anemic, while mounting space is
> at a premium. :)
>

[Awsome]

BMW engines are very good and reliable but a lil bit pricy, For 5500 Euro I
would rather go for Rotax 912.



"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "tffy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
>> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
>> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
>> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
>> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
>> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
>> overhauled?
>
> Beemer? http://www.microlightsport.co.uk/Catalogue/bmwengine.htm I
> have spent thousands of hours riding on top of my BMW engine, and often
> thought that I wouldn't mind flying behind one. That said, they have
> never been terribly popular with homebuilders for some reason.
>
> Vaughn
>

[Awsome]

I know couple of my freinds who are using modified auto engines for their
home built aircrafts. Engines they used are from the following model cars:

Honda Civic 1.2 Lit
Toyota Corolla Diesel, 1.8 Lit
Daihatsu Charade Turbo Diesel, 1.0 Lit, 4 Cylinder (In fact I 'm considering
using the same engine, very compact in design and light weight)

If any one interested in gettin these engines please hit me I can arrange
that. These engines could be zero miles refurbished or could be thousands
miles on it, depending on price. All the above listed models are overseas
models and you don't find them in US market.


"tffy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

[ls]

tffy wrote:
> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
> overhauled?
>
> Thanks!
>

If it's going to be a true ultralight (meets part 103), there probably
isn't a 4-stroke on the market that'll allow you make weight, much less
anything that puts out 80hp......

For true part 103 ultralights, the Rotax 447 is still the best motor
available. One of the neat secrets of 2-strokes is they fairly easily
allow you to install excessive power. The result here being a loafing
engine most of the time - the side effect of that being increased
reliability and longevity. This mostly due to the power/weight. A 447
with a good prop on a part 103 aircraft is more than plenty power and
will loaf along most of the flight.

Another neat thing about the 447 is that the crank assembly used is in
spittin' distance of the one in the 503 (the 50hp motor) in terms of
size and strength, yet the motor makes only about 40hp max. So the crank
assemblies in these things last for a long long time (600 hours or
more). Mag-end electric starts and big heavy 3-blade props reduce that
lifetime a lot, but if you stick to a good 2-blade woodie and the pull
start, a 447 will run for years and years.

If the plane is 400lbs or less, the Rotax 503 is probably the next best
bet for similar reasons.....

If you just have to have a 4-stroke, you're going to have to spend a
good deal more money and deal with a bit more weight. But there are some
good options here:

- Jabiru 2200. A local has one of these on his Kolb and he's getting
really good results with it. Very reliable running motor.
- HKS 4-stroke. I have no experience with these.
- Rotax 912. Expeeeeeensiiiiive.... cost as much as my entire plane! But
a very good reliable motor.


LS
N646F

[Ernest Christley]

ls wrote:
> tffy wrote:
>
>> This is for a hypothetical ultralight design, so just looking for
>> suggestions here of where to look at... hopefully a 4-stroke, purchase
>> price doesn't matter much, certification status doesn't matter either.
>> Long time before overhaul matters A LOT... so, the longer the better.
>> Is there anything out there in the 80-hp range? How about a motorcycle
>> engine conversion - how long can those go before needing to be
>> overhauled?
>>
>> Thanks!

> - Jabiru 2200. A local has one of these on his Kolb and he's getting
> really good results with it. Very reliable running motor.
> - HKS 4-stroke. I have no experience with these.
> - Rotax 912. Expeeeeeensiiiiive.... cost as much as my entire plane! But
> a very good reliable motor.
>
>
> LS
> N646F

If you're willing to do some developement work, a single rotary engine
would fit the bill. Peripheal ported, you could make up to 120Hp (if
your willing to turn it that fast). There's some development of
aluminum side housings going on, which will hopefully get the installed
weight into the 150lb range (I think that is the right number.) Oil it
right, and don't let it get to hot and it should last your forever.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."