30 Years Since Edmund Fitgerald

[Jay Honeck]

It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a
word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior. To those of us who
grew up on the Great Lakes, it was a terrible thing (even for those of us
who had nothing to do with the maritime industry), and the sinking launched
one of the largest air/sea rescue searches in history.

I was 17 at the time, and the horror of the loss even managed to penetrate
my teenage angst and self-centered existence at the time. It was horrendous
November weather (not unlike what we've just been through here), with
extraordinary winds and horrible, crashing waves -- and we were in Racine,
at the southern end of Lake Michigan! Those poor guys were on Lake Superior,
a much more treacherous body of water.

To those who have ever witnessed a winter storm on the Great Lakes, it's a
humbling sight from shore -- I can't imagine what it must be like at sea.
And to those flyers who launched into that weather, searching in vain for
that missing ship, you can only tip your hat to their courage.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3mlff.548575$x96.78928@attbi_s72...
>
> It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a
> word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.

And inspired one of the greatest "make me late for work songs" ever.
Whenever Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" comes on
the radio I have to listen to it all, even if it causes me to be late for
work.

[Robert M. Gary]

I'll think of that the next time I hear of a mid-air. I'll think,
Steven must have been late for work.

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> To those who have ever witnessed a winter storm on the Great Lakes, it's a
> humbling sight from shore -- I can't imagine what it must be like at sea.

Being only 11 at the time of this accident, I was unaware of the details or
of the mood immediately following the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
One day about five years ago, while listening to the Gordon Lightfoot song,
I realized that I wanted to know more so I performed some web research of
this sinking.

There are many excellent web sites dedicated to the ship, her people, and
the details surrounding the sinking. Particularly fascinating to me was
the weather that caused the accident. At least one website has the
prognostic charts of the storm during its various stages.

During the last couple of weeks I have been watching in fascination as at
least two deep low pressure systems moved across the Great Lake region in
roughly the same track as the storm of that fateful night.

> And to those flyers who launched into that weather, searching in vain for
> that missing ship, you can only tip your hat to their courage.

Amen to that.

--
Peter
























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[TomC]

Thanks for the post Jay. I hadn't thought about the anniversary until
I read your post. When I did, memories came flooding back. I was
living in Duluth, MN at the time. I often saw the Edmund Fitzgerald in
port - including seeing her at the docks in Superior the day before she
sank She was an impressive ship that you couldn't help but notice.
The wind coming across Lake Superior flunnled into the town that night
making it way too nasty a night to go out. So, my wife and I were home
when the TV started reporting that the ship was missing and possibly
lost. We stayed up late into the night, caught up in the drama of the
event. It was a night that I remember every time I hear the song.

[Robert M. Gary]

Didn't they only recently discovered what acutally caused her to go
down? It guess they think that she had a couple hatches not secured and
gained water but that wouldn't have sunk her along. The documentry I
recently saw seemed to think it was bad luck of catching a wave on her
bow and stern at the same time while the middle of the ship was in a
"gully". In otherwords, the middle of the ship was out of water while
the front and back were lifted by giant waves. As a result, she snapped
in two from port to starboard right in the middle. Certainly the
increased weight in the middle due to the flooding hatches contributed
to the snap.

-Robert

[Jim Burns]

I saw the same show and it made me believe that's what happened. That was
the closest plausible explanation that they could come up with as to why the
ship lays in two pieces, broken in the middle. I think that was also the
show that ended with a memorial to the crew and their families then they
ended all diving on the wreckage in their memory.

Jim

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Didn't they only recently discovered what acutally caused her to go
> down? It guess they think that she had a couple hatches not secured and
> gained water but that wouldn't have sunk her along. The documentry I
> recently saw seemed to think it was bad luck of catching a wave on her
> bow and stern at the same time while the middle of the ship was in a
> "gully". In otherwords, the middle of the ship was out of water while
> the front and back were lifted by giant waves. As a result, she snapped
> in two from port to starboard right in the middle. Certainly the
> increased weight in the middle due to the flooding hatches contributed
> to the snap.
>
> -Robert
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Didn't they only recently discovered what acutally caused her to go
> down? It guess they think that she had a couple hatches not secured and
> gained water but that wouldn't have sunk her along. The documentry I
> recently saw seemed to think it was bad luck of catching a wave on her
> bow and stern at the same time while the middle of the ship was in a
> "gully". In otherwords, the middle of the ship was out of water while
> the front and back were lifted by giant waves. As a result, she snapped
> in two from port to starboard right in the middle. Certainly the
> increased weight in the middle due to the flooding hatches contributed
> to the snap.
>
> -Robert

They know she filled by the bow and ended up diving to the bottom. The
weight of the water in the bow (not amidships) and green water over the bow
combined to send her on a dive to the bottom. She hit bottom bow down with
enough speed on that she broke in half. She is only in 300 some feet of
water, the trip to the bottom took only seconds. What caused her to fill is
unknown. Two theories are lost hatches and hull failure. Both theories
have problems. Hitting a shoal has been disproved. Had she broken up on
the surface at least part would have stayed afloat for awhile, in actuality
it was all over in seconds.

Wasn't there another situation recently just outside Whitefish Bay?

[Skylune]

by "Robert M. Gary" <rmg1@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Nov 18, 2005 at 09:22 AM


Didn't they only recently discovered what acutally caused her to go
down? It guess they think that she had a couple hatches not secured and
gained water but that wouldn't have sunk her along. The documentry I
recently saw seemed to think it was bad luck of catching a wave on her
bow and stern at the same time while the middle of the ship was in a
"gully". In otherwords, the middle of the ship was out of water while
the front and back were lifted by giant waves. As a result, she snapped
in two from port to starboard right in the middle. Certainly the
increased weight in the middle due to the flooding hatches contributed
to the snap.

-Robert<<

There was an excellent documentary on the tradgedy. I watched it on PBS a
few years back. As I recall, the lead theory is that the ship was caught
between two megawaves, which elevated the bow and stern, leaving the
center unsupported. She cracked in two and rapidly submerged, thus
explaining the lack of a mayday. Unsecured hatches may have contributed
to the flooding. But, it is still a mystery.

The sea, like the sky, can be very fickle: friendly and forgiving at one
moment, and then a wicked beast the next. Difficult to decide what was
more frightening: being in the right seat of the Cessna when it got hazy
over Long Island with my VFR friend or suddenly in the soup with 8-10 foot
waves breaking over the bow while trying to find the inlet to Block Island
Harbor -- with radar gone to s___t with all the turbulence and bilge pumps
automatically clicking on and off. GPS came to my rescue both times.

[Dave Stadt]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> by "Robert M. Gary" <rmg1@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Nov 18, 2005 at 09:22 AM
>
>
> Didn't they only recently discovered what acutally caused her to go
> down? It guess they think that she had a couple hatches not secured and
> gained water but that wouldn't have sunk her along. The documentry I
> recently saw seemed to think it was bad luck of catching a wave on her
> bow and stern at the same time while the middle of the ship was in a
> "gully". In otherwords, the middle of the ship was out of water while
> the front and back were lifted by giant waves. As a result, she snapped
> in two from port to starboard right in the middle. Certainly the
> increased weight in the middle due to the flooding hatches contributed
> to the snap.
>
> -Robert<<
>
> There was an excellent documentary on the tradgedy. I watched it on PBS a
> few years back. As I recall, the lead theory is that the ship was caught
> between two megawaves, which elevated the bow and stern, leaving the
> center unsupported. She cracked in two and rapidly submerged, thus
> explaining the lack of a mayday. Unsecured hatches may have contributed
> to the flooding. But, it is still a mystery.
>
> The sea, like the sky, can be very fickle: friendly and forgiving at one
> moment, and then a wicked beast the next. Difficult to decide what was
> more frightening: being in the right seat of the Cessna when it got hazy
> over Long Island with my VFR friend or suddenly in the soup with 8-10 foot
> waves breaking over the bow while trying to find the inlet to Block Island
> Harbor -- with radar gone to s___t with all the turbulence and bilge pumps
> automatically clicking on and off. GPS came to my rescue both times.

8 to 10 feet? Hardeharhar. A mere ripple upon which to play my friend.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Skylune" > wrote in message
> lkaboutaviation.com...
>> Difficult to decide what was
>> more frightening: being in the right seat of the Cessna when it got hazy
>> over Long Island with my VFR friend or suddenly in the soup with 8-10
>> foot
>> waves breaking over the bow while trying to find the inlet to Block
>> Island
>> Harbor -- with radar gone to s___t with all the turbulence and bilge
>> pumps
>> automatically clicking on and off. GPS came to my rescue both times.
>
> 8 to 10 feet? Hardeharhar. A mere ripple upon which to play my friend.

Oh, I dunno...I used to get seasick watching McHale's Navy.

[Skylune]

>>by "Matt Barrow" > Nov 18, 2005 at 02:23 PM


"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Skylune" > wrote in message
>
lkaboutaviation.com...
>> Difficult to decide what was
>> more frightening: being in the right seat of the Cessna when it got
hazy
>> over Long Island with my VFR friend or suddenly in the soup with 8-10
>> foot
>> waves breaking over the bow while trying to find the inlet to Block
>> Island
>> Harbor -- with radar gone to s___t with all the turbulence and bilge
>> pumps
>> automatically clicking on and off. GPS came to my rescue both times.
>
> 8 to 10 feet? Hardeharhar. A mere ripple upon which to play my
friend.

Oh, I dunno...I used to get seasick watching McHale's Navy.<<

A classic! Nowadays, my sal****er boat (the Double Diamond) sits in a
silly New Hampshire lake. The boaters on that lake are mostly boobs who
are afraid of the ocean. Most don't have radar, GPS, radios, nothing.....
The lake is seriously boring compared to the ocean.

That is why I am considering selling the boat and restarting my flight
training. Anyone interested in buying a boat?? Here she is:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photo_gallery.jsp?hosturl=iryb&slim=broker&checked_boats=1412206&back=/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp&boat_id=1412206

[Jack Brown]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:15:27 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a
>word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.

Jay,
I was a 22 y.o. student in Sault Ste. Marie that night and even if the
Fitz hadn't gone down, it was a storm I would still talk about. I
remember the way the clouds met as the two fronts collided overhead -
one set being sucked under the other - I knew it was time to head for
the house. When I came down the hill my housemates were taking the
storm door off the hinges - it had already smashed all of the glass
out.

A close friend works at the Shipwreck Society at Whitefish Point
running the ROV on their dive boat - I've gotten to see several clips
of the sections of the ship from their surveys. I can't write this
without feeling shivers. The sound of the bell may die out, but
memories of that night will never fade. Likewise, I'll never forget
how spooked I was when I first heard the Lightfoot song and how
personal it felt.

Thanks for bringing it up.

jb

[Jim Burns]

> That is why I am considering selling the boat and restarting my flight
> training. Anyone interested in buying a boat?? Here she is:
>

Hey, you're not that guy on the Bob and Tom show that's constantly trying to
sell his boat... are you??

Jim

[Skylune]

by Jack Brown <JBrown@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Nov 18, 2005 at 04:01 PM


On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:15:27 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
<jjhoneck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

>It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a

>word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.

Jay,
I was a 22 y.o. student in Sault Ste. Marie that night and even if the
Fitz hadn't gone down, it was a storm I would still talk about. I
remember the way the clouds met as the two fronts collided overhead -
one set being sucked under the other - I knew it was time to head for
the house. When I came down the hill my housemates were taking the
storm door off the hinges - it had already smashed all of the glass
out.

A close friend works at the Shipwreck Society at Whitefish Point
running the ROV on their dive boat - I've gotten to see several clips
of the sections of the ship from their surveys. I can't write this
without feeling shivers. The sound of the bell may die out, but
memories of that night will never fade. Likewise, I'll never forget
how spooked I was when I first heard the Lightfoot song and how
personal it felt.

Thanks for bringing it up.

jb<<

Yes, thank you Jay. At the end of the day, mother nature is really in
charge. Pilots and boaters can only try to deal with Her.

[Morgans]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote

> 8 to 10 feet? Hardeharhar. A mere ripple upon which to play my friend.

No doubt; that is when sailing is just starting to get really fun! Plus, I
found the harbor breakwater by ded reckoning, using a compass, only!

Yet another tale, bracketing what makes the loser (Skyloone) quiver. Sad,
real sad.
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:3mlff.548575$x96.78928@attbi_s72...
>
>>It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a
>>word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.
>
>
> And inspired one of the greatest "make me late for work songs" ever.
> Whenever Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" comes on
> the radio I have to listen to it all, even if it causes me to be late for
> work.

Yep, one of my all time favorites. I simply never tire of hearing that
ballad. Then again, I'm like ballads in general.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Didn't they only recently discovered what acutally caused her to go
> down? It guess they think that she had a couple hatches not secured and
> gained water but that wouldn't have sunk her along. The documentry I
> recently saw seemed to think it was bad luck of catching a wave on her
> bow and stern at the same time while the middle of the ship was in a
> "gully". In otherwords, the middle of the ship was out of water while
> the front and back were lifted by giant waves. As a result, she snapped
> in two from port to starboard right in the middle. Certainly the
> increased weight in the middle due to the flooding hatches contributed
> to the snap.
>
> -Robert
>

That has long been a speculation, but nobody alive today really knows
what happened and even those onboard may have never known.

Matt

[Dave]

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy.

With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more
Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
When the gales of November came early

The ship was the pride of the American side
Coming back from some mill in Wisconson
As the big freighters go it was bigger than most
With a crew and the Captain well seasoned.

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ships bell rang
Could it be the North Wind they'd been feeling.

The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound
And a wave broke over the railing
And every man knew, as the Captain did, too,
T'was the witch of November come stealing.

The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait
When the gales of November came slashing
When afternoon came it was freezing rain
In the face of a hurricane West Wind

When supper time came the old cook came on deck
Saying fellows it's too rough to feed ya
At 7PM a main hatchway caved in
He said fellas it's been good to know ya.

The Captain wired in he had water coming in
And the good ship and crew was in peril
And later that night when his lights went out of sight
Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Does anyone know where the love of God goes
When the words turn the minutes to hours
The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay
If they'd fifteen more miles behind her.

They might have split up or they might have capsized
They may have broke deep and took water
And all that remains is the faces and the names
Of the wives and the sons and the daughters.

Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings
In the ruins of her ice water mansion
Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams,
The islands and bays are for sportsmen.

And farther below Lake Ontario
Takes in what Lake Erie can send her
And the iron boats go as the mariners all know
With the gales of November remembered.

In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed
In the Maritime Sailors' Cathedral
The church bell chimed, 'til it rang 29 times
For each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald.

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
Superior, they say, never gives up her dead
When the gales of November come early.

[Happy Dog]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:3mlff.548575$x96.78928@attbi_s72...
>>
>>>It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a
>>>word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.
>>
>>
>> And inspired one of the greatest "make me late for work songs" ever.
>> Whenever Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" comes on
>> the radio I have to listen to it all, even if it causes me to be late for
>> work.
>
> Yep, one of my all time favorites. I simply never tire of hearing that
> ballad. Then again, I'm like ballads in general.

How about "Dear God" by XTC?

moo

[Dan Luke]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

>> It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down
>> without a word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.
>
> And inspired one of the greatest "make me late for work songs" ever.
> Whenever Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" comes
> on the radio I have to listen to it all, even if it causes me to be
> late for work.

Never met anyone who *didn't* love that song--though this thread will no
doubt troll up an example.

That lonesome, haunting guitar hook and those tragic lyrics make it one
of the all time greats.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

That still gives me goose bumps.

[Matt Whiting]

Dave wrote:
>
> The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
> Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
> The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
> When the skies of November turn gloomy.

Some of the words don't look right. Where did you find this?

Matt

[Jeff]

It must be a Yankee thing :)

Although I was only 5 in 1975, and I know about the sinking, I have never
heard or heard of this song. I consider myself well rounded in musical
taste. I like everything from Classical to Hard Rock and from all decades.
After all the talk about it, I illegally downloaded it and listened,
thinking surely I know this song, I just don't remember it. Well, no.
Never heard it before and doubt I will again.

Sad true story, but my love of Gordon Lightfoot must be tempered with youth
;)

jf


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:3mlff.548575$x96.78928@attbi_s72...
>>
>> It was November of '75 when the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down without a
>> word, taking 29 sailors to the bottom of Lake Superior.
>
> And inspired one of the greatest "make me late for work songs" ever.
> Whenever Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" comes on
> the radio I have to listen to it all, even if it causes me to be late for
> work.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> > The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
> > Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
> > The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
> > When the skies of November turn gloomy.
>
> Some of the words don't look right. Where did you find this?

They're right. I listen to that song just about every other morning
while working out with my son (we listen to his crap, er, music, every
other day, and I get my music on the in-between days), and it never
fails to give me the shivers.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote
>
> > 8 to 10 feet? Hardeharhar. A mere ripple upon which to play my friend.
>
> No doubt; that is when sailing is just starting to get really fun!

The lune is a stinkpotter. End of story.

[George Patterson]

Jeff wrote:
> It must be a Yankee thing :)
>
> Although I was only 5 in 1975, and I know about the sinking, I have never
> heard or heard of this song.

The song was on the pop music charts for several weeks. It played regularly at
that time in Atlanta, which is not exactly a Yankee city. As with any popular
song, it would play occasionally as an "oldie" in Atlanta and Knoxville during
the late 70s and early 80s. I believe that I've heard it on the air only once
since 1984.

George Patterson
If a tank is out of ammunition, what you have is a sixty ton portable
radio.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
>>>Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
>>>The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
>>>When the skies of November turn gloomy.
>>
>>Some of the words don't look right. Where did you find this?
>
>
> They're right. I listen to that song just about every other morning
> while working out with my son (we listen to his crap, er, music, every
> other day, and I get my music on the in-between days), and it never
> fails to give me the shivers.

If you say so, but I was pretty sure that the following should have
said: "That good ship and crew", rather than "That good ship and true."

I don't get the meaning of good ship and true. Is this a nautical term
of some sort?

Matt

With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more
Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
When the gales of November came early

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> It must be a Yankee thing :)
>

What definition of "Yankee" are you using?

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> If you say so, but I was pretty sure that the following should have
> said: "That good ship and crew", rather than "That good ship and true."
>
> I don't get the meaning of good ship and true. Is this a nautical term
> of some sort?
>
> Matt
>
> With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more
> Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
> That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
> When the gales of November came early

You are correct.

[Dan Luke]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

> I don't get the meaning of good ship and true. Is this a nautical
> term of some sort?

Not necessarily, but it is an old fashioned usage, putting the noun
between the adjectives: "A good friend and true."

[Jeff]

The post Revolutionary War one.....as in Damn Yankee ;)

jf - Still holding a 140 year old grudge :)



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> It must be a Yankee thing :)
>>
>
> What definition of "Yankee" are you using?
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> The post Revolutionary War one.....as in Damn Yankee ;)
>

Wouldn't that one mean all Americans?


>
> jf - Still holding a 140 year old grudge :)
>

Are you mixing your wars? The War Between the States ended 140 years ago,
the Revolutionary War ended 222 years ago.

[Jay Honeck]

> If you say so, but I was pretty sure that the following should have
> said: "That good ship and crew", rather than "That good ship and true."
>
> I don't get the meaning of good ship and true. Is this a nautical term
> of some sort?

I'm not sure of the meaning, exactly, but that's what Gordon Lightfoot
sings...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Marty]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> If you say so, but I was pretty sure that the following should have
>> said: "That good ship and crew", rather than "That good ship and true."
>>
>> I don't get the meaning of good ship and true. Is this a nautical term
>> of some sort?
>
> I'm not sure of the meaning, exactly, but that's what Gordon Lightfoot
> sings...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Jay is correct as far as I can find. Checked 4 sites with the lyrics and all
say,
"That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed".

No, I don't know the meaning either.

Marty

[George Patterson]

Matt Whiting wrote:

> I don't get the meaning of good ship and true. Is this a nautical term
> of some sort?

I've seen the phrase in nautical accounts dating from the late 1700s and early
1800s. Judging from the context, I took it to mean that the ship had no vices;
that is, it sailed well.

George Patterson
If a tank is out of ammunition, what you have is a sixty ton portable
radio.

[Matt Whiting]

Montblack wrote:

> ("Marty" wrote)
>
>> "That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed".
>>
>> No, I don't know the meaning either.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know where the love of God goes
> When the words turn the minutes to hours
>
>
> I always thought this was "waves" turned the minutes to hours.

Yes, likewise for me. I can't be sure that the posted lyrices are
incorrect, but there are certainly a few words that don't sound like the
song to my ear.


Matt

[Skywise]

"Montblack" > wrote in
:

> ("Marty" wrote)
>> "That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed".
>>
>> No, I don't know the meaning either.

I just looped that part and listend to it, not being familiar
with the lyrics already.

I hear,
"That big ship and crew was a bone to be chewed"
^^^ ^^^^

I think the metaphor is that the November gale would treat the
"big ship and crew" like a dog treats a "bone to be chewed".


> Does anyone know where the love of God goes
> When the words turn the minutes to hours
>
> I always thought this was "waves" turned the minutes to hours.

"When the waves turn minutes to hours" is what I hear, no "the"
..

Listening to the rest of the song and looking over the posted
lyrics I find,

"The Captain wired in he had water coming in
And the good ship and crew was in peril"

The last line should be,
"And the big ship and crew was in peril"
^^^

This line is similar the first one above that's in question
and the word "crew" is much clearer.

Further on,
"The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay
If they'd fifteen more miles behind her."

The last line should be,
"If they'd put fifteen more miles behind her."
^^^

All in all not bad job of transcription for a singer who has a
heavy accent.

I do music remixing/editing as a hobby and there's many a time
I have to figure out lyrics and words when splicing and dicing,
so I'm practiced at it a bit more than average. But I could
still be wrong though.

Does anyone have the album? Does it have lyrics? Or maybe an
official songbook?

Anyway, I remember seeing the documentary about the Fitzgereld
on Discovery (or whatever) and finding myself deeply moved by
the story. I don't usually get very emotional about such things
but for some reason this wreck is special.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Supernews sucks - blocking google, usenet.com & newsfeeds.com posts

[Matt Whiting]

Skywise wrote:
> "Montblack" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>("Marty" wrote)
>>
>>>"That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed".
>>>
>>>No, I don't know the meaning either.
>
>
> I just looped that part and listend to it, not being familiar
> with the lyrics already.
>
> I hear,
> "That big ship and crew was a bone to be chewed"
> ^^^ ^^^^
>
> I think the metaphor is that the November gale would treat the
> "big ship and crew" like a dog treats a "bone to be chewed".
>
>
>
>>Does anyone know where the love of God goes
>>When the words turn the minutes to hours
>>
>>I always thought this was "waves" turned the minutes to hours.
>
>
> "When the waves turn minutes to hours" is what I hear, no "the"
> .
>
> Listening to the rest of the song and looking over the posted
> lyrics I find,
>
> "The Captain wired in he had water coming in
> And the good ship and crew was in peril"
>
> The last line should be,
> "And the big ship and crew was in peril"
> ^^^
>
> This line is similar the first one above that's in question
> and the word "crew" is much clearer.
>
> Further on,
> "The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay
> If they'd fifteen more miles behind her."
>
> The last line should be,
> "If they'd put fifteen more miles behind her."
> ^^^
>
> All in all not bad job of transcription for a singer who has a
> heavy accent.
>
> I do music remixing/editing as a hobby and there's many a time
> I have to figure out lyrics and words when splicing and dicing,
> so I'm practiced at it a bit more than average. But I could
> still be wrong though.
>
> Does anyone have the album? Does it have lyrics? Or maybe an
> official songbook?
>
> Anyway, I remember seeing the documentary about the Fitzgereld
> on Discovery (or whatever) and finding myself deeply moved by
> the story. I don't usually get very emotional about such things
> but for some reason this wreck is special.
>
> Brian

Brian, your comparison is much more thorough than mine, but I'm with
you. As I originally posted, I believe these lyrics are not correct in
several instances.


Matt

[Dave]

I can relate...

We got into some 10-12 foot waves a few years ago with our boat, (45
ft) ..

Was quite uncomfortable, and hard on the head thinking about all the
pins / links and other parts in the steering that could fail etc.

Something like the plane engine always sounding rougher over water ..

Plus , 2 hours of that is very tiring...

Dave


On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:23:09 -0500, "Skylune"
> wrote:

>Dave Stadt wrote >>8 to 10 feet? Hardeharhar. A mere ripple upon which to
>play my friend.<<
>
>;-). Depends on the size of one's................boat. I laugh about it
>now too.
>
>The boat's twin, double screws (and the GPS) may have saved our lives.
>Lesser craft have swamped or capsized in that stuff, with the wind, the
>rain, the waves and no functioning radar (knowing other boats are trying
>to find the inlet from prior radio chatter). Only the second time I told
>my first "mate" (that would be my wife) to get out the PDFs and everyone
>else to please be quiet. Scary stuff when others are depending on you, and
>you're doing your best to maintain the game face. I'm sure pilots can
>relate.
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

>> Does anyone know where the love of God goes
>> When the words turn the minutes to hours
>>
>> I always thought this was "waves" turned the minutes to hours.

It is. THAT is posted incorrectly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jeff]

lol, no...the POST-Revolutionary war, meaning the use afterwards....during
the War of Northern Agression :0


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The post Revolutionary War one.....as in Damn Yankee ;)
>>
>
> Wouldn't that one mean all Americans?
>
>
>>
>> jf - Still holding a 140 year old grudge :)
>>
>
> Are you mixing your wars? The War Between the States ended 140 years ago,
> the Revolutionary War ended 222 years ago.
>

[Skylune]

Stinkpotter checking in! I'm pretty sure grounding on a shoal hasn't been
ruled out entirely. Came across this letter from an old salt who knew
many of the lost:

Letter from Duane Bartlett - Sailor of Great Lakes

(sailed with some of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald)



-Duane Bartlett, now almost 80, shared this letter that he wrote to his
son, in memory of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald.



Nov. 7, 2000....Today I celebrate 3/4 of a Century on this earth. Some
thoughts of this "Old Lonesome Sailor" as I was sometime known among my
fellow shipmates. I sailed on the Great Lakes for 35 years without missing
a days work for the Columbia Transportation Company. As I observe my
birthday I am reminded of a journey I began on another birthday in 1975.



My ship, the M/V Joseph H. Frantz, had departed Toledo. Ohio with a cargo
of coal for Ashland, Wisconsin, which is on the West end of Lake Superior.
We entered Lake Superior on the morning of Nov. 10th. At approx. 1600 we
pass abeam of Eagle Harbor, the middle of Lake Superior. As the sun set I
was aware of a strange phenomenon...the sky was a odd, strange, peculiar
color and the water was a glassy slate gray...as if brooding. Indeed it
was. By the midnight watch the wind had reached hurricane strength and
the waves looked like mountains...we were struggling to reach the lee of
Madaline Island in the Apostle Islands where we could find safe anchorage.
We finally managed to come around under the island and drop two anchors to
hold us until the storm abated. I have never rolled a ship as hard as we
did that night.



In another part of the Big Lake Gitchee Gumee the Steamer Edmund
Fitzgerald, the Columbia Fleet's Flagship, and the pride of the Fleet had
sailed from Superior, Wis. Radio communication between ships on the Lakes
is limited to about 50 miles so we had heard nothing from the Fitz. We did
not even know of her problems until we went to anchor and someone caught a
message from the Coast Guard about the Fitz being missing. By morning we
had made contact with our fleet dispatchers and they informed us of the
nights events. The Fitz was missing somewhere near Whitefish Point. The
storm was so severe that the Coast Guard was unable to send search vessels
out for some hours. The ship was eventually found under 500 feet of water
15 miles from the safety of the lee of Whitefish Point. The only things
that was ever found was a wrecked lifeboat and some other debris from on
the decks. No bodies were ever found. Lake Superior never gives up her
dead. The Fitz went down without a warning. No distress call...no
nothing...she simply just disappeared from the lake. A ship following
behind radioed the Coast Guard that the Fitz had dropped off his radar and
vanished. The Pride of the Great Lakes Fleet had gone to the bottom in a
wild storm of such force that the she had no opportunity to send a May
Day.



The sinking of the Fitz was a deep blow to me...I had the privilege of
working with and knowing all the men on the Fitz. I had worked with
Captain McSorley for 9 years and with First Mate Jack McCarthy for 12
years. I loved them dearly. I knew all of the other crew members and had
worked with most of them at one time or another. I was very saddened by
this turn of events as was all the other seamen of the Great Lakes.



On this occasion of my 75 birthday I think of that November Gale that took
the lives of my friends. I am reminded how sweet life is and how short it
can be in reality. I listen to the tribute of Gordon Lightfoot and his
rendition of his song The Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald and my eyes well
with tears and I relive all the misery of that fateful night in that
Hurricane West Wind of November 10, 1975. I am grateful to have survived
to relate this story to you. It is etched in my memory forever. I salute
the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald.



-The Old Lonesome Sailor....Duane Bartlett

[Jay Honeck]

> Letter from Duane Bartlett - Sailor of Great Lakes
>
> (sailed with some of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald)

<Big Snip of Great Letter>

Thanks for sharing that, Skylune. I had a friend who worked one summer
on lake freighters, and he said it was the hardest work he'd ever done.


I can't imagine working 35 years on the lakes...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Stinkpotter checking in! I'm pretty sure grounding on a shoal hasn't been
> ruled out entirely.

There was no shoal, it was a chart error showing an incorrect depth. The
charts showed something like 6 fathoms instead of 16 fathoms. Some Great
Lakes depths were sounded in the late 1800s and have not been recharted or
verified since.

[Skylune]

>>by "Jay Honeck" > Nov 21, 2005 at 12:01 PM


> Letter from Duane Bartlett - Sailor of Great Lakes
>
> (sailed with some of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald)

<Big Snip of Great Letter>

Thanks for sharing that, Skylune. I had a friend who worked one summer
on lake freighters, and he said it was the hardest work he'd ever done.


I can't imagine working 35 years on the lakes...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"<<

Of all the air and sea disasters our nation has experienced, there is
SOMETHING about the "Fitz" that is moving, even after 30 years. Maybe
its the mystery concerning the sudden sinking, or the randomness of Mother
Nature. Its strange, because in terms of lives lost, it doesn't approach
larger sea (Titanic, General Slocum) or airborne catastrophes.

[Skylune]

>>by "Dave Stadt" > Nov 21, 2005 at 09:24 PM


"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Stinkpotter checking in! I'm pretty sure grounding on a shoal hasn't
been
> ruled out entirely.

There was no shoal, it was a chart error showing an incorrect depth. The
charts showed something like 6 fathoms instead of 16 fathoms. Some
Great
Lakes depths were sounded in the late 1800s and have not been recharted
or
verified since.<<

I hadn't seen that before. It's interesting to read the original NTSB
accident report, which never really did reach a definitive conclusion.
In fact, there was a "dissenting opinion" if I recall correctly. I did a
term paper on this waay back in my undergrad days, so the details aren't
fresh. Dave: Can you tell me where you found that info? Thanks.

[Skylune]

No context needed here: NTSB report is attached (long, but there is a
dissenting opinion: don't think I've ever seen that before on an NTSB
report). I think the report is nearly as haunting as the Lightfoot
ballad.



http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBSHIPWRECKS/EdmundFitzgeraldNTSBReport.html

[Dave]

I wrote:
>
> The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
> Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
> The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
> When the skies of November turn gloomy.
>

>Snip<

I posted the lyrics as a gesture, I suppose. I'm surprised at the
response.

In reference to the line

"That good ship and true..."

I agree with the poster that intereprets this as a
hmmm...vernacular thing. As in, "A good friend and true". "Crew" works
better,absolutely, but to my ear, and appreciating the art of poetics, I
believe it's "true".

In Re the line:

"Does anyone know where the love of God goes
When the words turn the minutes to hours?"

"Waves" works much better here, but again, having listened (loop,
MP3) and thinking about it, I believe "words". Why?

It's about communicating your dire situation, and pilots would feel
this, for sure, because the time frame of an emergency for an aviator is
much smaller than for a ship's captain.

Radio, static, wind and noise... "We need help how soon can...."

Radio, static, wind and noise.....

"Say again, Edmund"
"your position"
& ETC.

Words. For a human being in extremis and trying to communicate, and
needing a miracle during a helluva storm, a ship's radio, "way back"
then could indeed turn the minutes to hours.

My .02

~Dave

[Jose]

> I posted the lyrics as a gesture, I suppose. I'm surprised at the
> response.

There is no finer tribute than to have people singing about you long
after you are gone. It is a fine song.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Dave > wrote:

> I agree with the poster that intereprets this as a
> hmmm...vernacular thing. As in, "A good friend and true". "Crew" works
> better,absolutely, but to my ear, and appreciating the art of poetics, I
> believe it's "true".

I always thought it was supposed to be "crew," too, but that Mr. Lightfoot
made a mistake during the recording that they didn't bother correcting for
the final cut.


--
Peter