Flying into NYC for Thanksgiving Day Parade

[John Doe]

Hello all,

I was thinking about flying the family up to NYC to see the Thanksgiving Day
Parade.

Anyone recommend an airport to fly in to?

I would rather not rent a car, just get into town somehow and then the walk
or cab it while in the city.

Flight would be flown IFR from Norfolk (ORF) to wherever near NYC. Any
preferred routes/arrivals would be appreciated as well.

Thanks.

[Peter R.]

John Doe > wrote:

> I was thinking about flying the family up to NYC to see the Thanksgiving Day
> Parade.
>
> Anyone recommend an airport to fly in to?
>
> I would rather not rent a car, just get into town somehow and then the walk
> or cab it while in the city.

Teterboro (KTEB) is probably the closest in terms of commuting into
Manhattan. I commuted there weekly during the summer of 2004 for business
on the Island.

Car service from the airport to midtown is about US $80 to $100 one way.
You could also take the train or the bus. Millionare, the FBO where I
parked, provided free transportation to the train or bus stop. Both were
about 5 minutes away from the FBO, both stops were outdoors, and both were
not places at which I felt comfortable standing alone after dark. The bus
takes you to Port Authority bus terminal snd the train takes you to Penn
Station.

In terms of cost, the train was about $6.00 per person and the bus was
about $2.50 from their stops near TEB. In the end, I opted for the bus
since it was faster, even during rush hour. You can get both schedules
online.

The bus is the New Jersey Transit bus #165. Here is the schedule:

http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/bus/T0165.pdf

The train is the New Jersey transit, Pascack Valley line, transferring in
Secaucus Station. You need to fill in some information to see your
schedule, here:

http://www.njtransit.com/sf_tr_schedules.shtml#

--
Peter
























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[David Megginson]

John Doe wrote:

> I was thinking about flying the family up to NYC to see the Thanksgiving Day
> Parade.
>
> Anyone recommend an airport to fly in to?

IFR or VFR?

If you're coming in VFR, it's nice to pick an airport on the same side
of the class B as you are, all other things being equal. I come from
the north, so it's trivially easy to get into Teterboro (KTEB) or
Caldwell (KCDW) VFR. IFR, you can get some funky routings no matter
what you do. You'll be coming from the south, so I don't know what
would work best. Linden? (I've never tried it).

I've found that Republic (KFRG), Caldwell, and Teterboro all have
similar costs for tie-down and fuel. From Republic, you get a lift in
the FBO van to the LIRR station and take the train into Penn Station;
from Teterboro, you take an expensive taxi/limo ride or a cheap bus to
the Port Authority. From Caldwell, an expensive car/taxi is
pretty-much your only realistic choice.

Personally, I plan to stick with Teterboro from now on, because I fly
in from Canada, and Teterboro has customs onsite at Atlantic Aviation
(so I don't have to make an extra stop in Massena). It's on the wrong
side of the class B for you, though.


Best of luck,


David

[Andrew Gideon]

David Megginson wrote:

> Linden? (I've never tried it).

Linden is an interesting little airport, almost like a country airport but
shoved under an 800' shelf of a class B.

That has consequences. First, if you're not comfortable flying near a class
B, you won't like it. And I do mean *near*. If you're 1" too high in the
pattern, you're in class B.

You can get into Linden w/o talking to ATC, but I'm the chatty type. One
trick people use is to follow the GPS approach. Follow it (laterally and
vertically) and you'll stay out of the class B.

Another consequence it that it's not a busy airport with multiple 24x7 FBOs.
If you're there during business hours, you can get a cab easily enough. I
don't happen to know if there's even a payphone or a board listing taxi
companies if you're there off-hours, though.

You can get a taxi to the local NJTransit stop.

TEB is probably easiest in terms of no-rental-car transit into the city. At
CDW, transit options are pretty poor. The Mac Dan FBO, though, rents cars
on the field (for which I'd recommend calling ahead).

- Andrew

[R.L.]

Besides the others mentioned, you have MMU (Morristown, NJ). They have a
Signature FBO.
It's about five minutes away from Convent station that's a straight shot
into Penn Station, which is on 34th Street, west side, which is where you
want to be. Their vans will take to the station (don't know about the
return trip from the station) Taking the train to/from Penn Station is
preferable to a bus to/from Port Authority. MMU is far less busy than TEB (a
consideration if you're flying in Wednesday) . There are hotels nearby too.

http://www.bba-aviation.com/flightsupport/locations/mmu/

Also, there's HPN (White Plains, NY), a bit further away.



"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:l98gf.14408$om5.10905@dukeread04...
> Hello all,
>
> I was thinking about flying the family up to NYC to see the Thanksgiving
Day
> Parade.
>
> Anyone recommend an airport to fly in to?
>
> I would rather not rent a car, just get into town somehow and then the
walk
> or cab it while in the city.
>
> Flight would be flown IFR from Norfolk (ORF) to wherever near NYC. Any
> preferred routes/arrivals would be appreciated as well.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>

[John Doe]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> I was thinking about flying the family up to NYC to see the Thanksgiving
>> Day
>> Parade.
>>
>> Anyone recommend an airport to fly in to?
>
> IFR or VFR?
>
> If you're coming in VFR, it's nice to pick an airport on the same side
> of the class B as you are, all other things being equal. I come from
> the north, so it's trivially easy to get into Teterboro (KTEB) or
> Caldwell (KCDW) VFR. IFR, you can get some funky routings no matter
> what you do. You'll be coming from the south, so I don't know what
> would work best. Linden? (I've never tried it).
>
> I've found that Republic (KFRG), Caldwell, and Teterboro all have
> similar costs for tie-down and fuel. From Republic, you get a lift in
> the FBO van to the LIRR station and take the train into Penn Station;
> from Teterboro, you take an expensive taxi/limo ride or a cheap bus to
> the Port Authority. From Caldwell, an expensive car/taxi is
> pretty-much your only realistic choice.
>
> Personally, I plan to stick with Teterboro from now on, because I fly
> in from Canada, and Teterboro has customs onsite at Atlantic Aviation
> (so I don't have to make an extra stop in Massena). It's on the wrong
> side of the class B for you, though.

Republic sounds tempting vs TEB. How long is the train ride to Penn
Station?

[David Megginson]

John Doe wrote:

> Republic sounds tempting vs TEB. How long is the train ride to Penn
> Station?

It's about an hour. Trains run roughly every hour, but I understand
that during evening rush hour, it's a longer wait to get into the city.
So figure more than two hours from landing to midtown. It's a nice,
quiet little town, though, with a mall right beside the airport (I
didn't go inside).

Someone else wrote about liking to talk to ATC. I like to talk to ATC
as well -- I fly out of what would be a class B airport in the U.S. --
but when you call NY approach from the north flying into KCDW or KTEB,
they'll just tell you to descend and remain clear of class B anyway.


All the best,


David

[John Doe]

Here's a rollup of FBO prices at TEB for this week:

Signature: $38/night
Atlantic: $25/night
1st Aviation $35/night
Million Air $45/night

Gas prices ranged from $5 to over $6/gallon

Wow.

[Longworth]

Weather forecast calls for rain and snow on Thursday in the Northeast.
We had planned to fly from KPOU (north of NY city) to Hartford, CT but
most likely will just drive there.

Hai Longworth

[John Doe]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Republic sounds tempting vs TEB. How long is the train ride to Penn
>> Station?
>
> It's about an hour. Trains run roughly every hour, but I understand
> that during evening rush hour, it's a longer wait to get into the city.
> So figure more than two hours from landing to midtown. It's a nice,
> quiet little town, though, with a mall right beside the airport (I
> didn't go inside).
>
> Someone else wrote about liking to talk to ATC. I like to talk to ATC
> as well -- I fly out of what would be a class B airport in the U.S. --
> but when you call NY approach from the north flying into KCDW or KTEB,
> they'll just tell you to descend and remain clear of class B anyway.
>
>

Am I reading the chart right, As far as the class B airspace goes, if I come
right up the coast and stay below 1500' can I thread the airspace between
jfk and newark and fly right over 'ground zero' on my way to TEB?

Is the NYC ADIZ no longer in effect?

[John Doe]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Republic sounds tempting vs TEB. How long is the train ride to Penn
>> Station?
>
> It's about an hour. Trains run roughly every hour, but I understand
> that during evening rush hour, it's a longer wait to get into the city.
> So figure more than two hours from landing to midtown. It's a nice,
> quiet little town, though, with a mall right beside the airport (I
> didn't go inside).
>
> Someone else wrote about liking to talk to ATC. I like to talk to ATC
> as well -- I fly out of what would be a class B airport in the U.S. --
> but when you call NY approach from the north flying into KCDW or KTEB,
> they'll just tell you to descend and remain clear of class B anyway.
>
>

If I'm trying to get to TEB from the south, my direct flight takes me right
over the top of Newark (yea right). How painful is it going to be to get
around Newark and into TEB from the south?

[John Doe]

"Longworth" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Weather forecast calls for rain and snow on Thursday in the Northeast.
> We had planned to fly from KPOU (north of NY city) to Hartford, CT but
> most likely will just drive there.
>
> Hai Longworth
>

Awesome, that'll be fun.

[Peter R.]

John Doe > wrote:

> Is the NYC ADIZ no longer in effect?

Nope, fortunately it went away within months of the 9/11 terrorism act.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

John Doe > wrote:

> Here's a rollup of FBO prices at TEB for this week:
>
> Signature: $38/night
> Atlantic: $25/night
> 1st Aviation $35/night
> Million Air $45/night
>
> Gas prices ranged from $5 to over $6/gallon

Millionare used to wave the first night's fee if fuel were purchased, or if
you talked really sweet to the counter women. ;) I would call and inquire
about this if you are going to TEB.

--
Peter

[George Patterson]

John Doe wrote:

> Am I reading the chart right, As far as the class B airspace goes, if I come
> right up the coast and stay below 1500' can I thread the airspace between
> jfk and newark and fly right over 'ground zero' on my way to TEB?

Not exactly. The class-B floor dips to 1100' over NY harbor, so you need to
watch out for that. As for the rest, you have to maintain clearance from
buildings and such, so you can't safely fly "right over" anything except the
harbor, the rivers and the bridges unless you get clearance into the B.

George Patterson
If a tank is out of ammunition, what you have is a sixty ton portable
radio.

[George Patterson]

John Doe wrote:

> If I'm trying to get to TEB from the south, my direct flight takes me right
> over the top of Newark (yea right). How painful is it going to be to get
> around Newark and into TEB from the south?

IMO, the easiest thing for you to do is to call up Newark and go through the
class-B. If the winds allow, they'll probably bring you right up the river and
then swing you around to land from the north.

George Patterson
If a tank is out of ammunition, what you have is a sixty ton portable
radio.

[David Megginson]

John Doe wrote:

> Here's a rollup of FBO prices at TEB for this week:
>
> Signature: $38/night
> Atlantic: $25/night
> 1st Aviation $35/night
> Million Air $45/night
>
> Gas prices ranged from $5 to over $6/gallon
>
> Wow.

It's nice to be in a fuel-efficient plane when you fly in. I had a
good experience at Atlantic last March, and I think they gave me one of
my nights free with a top up (about 25 gallons), as well as driving my
family and luggage from the plane to the FBO (which, for me, is a
little overboard). I've also had a good experience with Atlantic at
KPHL.


All the best,


David

[Andrew Gideon]

David Megginson wrote:

> when you call NY approach from the north flying into KCDW or KTEB,
> they'll just tell you to descend and remain clear of class B anyway.


That is not my experience. I fly into that area all the time (I primarily
fly out of CDW), and I cannot recall the last time that occurred. It *has*
occurred; don't get me wrong. But it's been a long time since.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

George Patterson wrote:

> The class-B floor dips to 1100' over NY harbor, so you need to
> watch out for that.

Be sure you're flying with a terminal chart or - even better - a helicopter
chart. Otherwise, it is too easy to miss one of those little chunks where
the airspace drops.

However, what is being described is a common route for tourists and
helicopters: the "Hudson VFR Cooridor" or "Exclusion Zone". I've taken it
north to TEB's airspace, and then made a left turn (contacting TEB tower,
of course) for a transition en route to CDW. No problem.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

George Patterson wrote:

> IMO, the easiest thing for you to do is to call up Newark and go through
> the class-B. If the winds allow, they'll probably bring you right up the
> river and then swing you around to land from the north.

Another approach is to contact EWR tower while approaching the class B at
1000 over the Garden State Parkway. Request the "GSP transition north".
Watch out for traffic helicopters.

I first learned that trick on my club checkride. The idea is to follow the
highway. So I followed the highway. The CFI giving me the checkride said
"you don't need to follow every bend in the road." I replied with
something like "no, I don't *need* to".

Admittedly, this is easier for a local (we know the GSP {8^).

If you're flying into TEB, then - depending upon the wind - you might get a
pretty direct route through the class B just as a matter of course.
There's an ILS (6, I think) onto which you could be vectored.

- Andrew

[John Doe]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> John Doe > wrote:
>
>> Here's a rollup of FBO prices at TEB for this week:
>>
>> Signature: $38/night
>> Atlantic: $25/night
>> 1st Aviation $35/night
>> Million Air $45/night
>>
>> Gas prices ranged from $5 to over $6/gallon
>
> Millionare used to wave the first night's fee if fuel were purchased, or
> if
> you talked really sweet to the counter women. ;) I would call and
> inquire
> about this if you are going to TEB.
>

That is a true statement. (I called to verify)

[Gary Drescher]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:Eixgf.2440$MW6.1048@trndny08...
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Am I reading the chart right, As far as the class B airspace goes, if I
>> come right up the coast and stay below 1500' can I thread the airspace
>> between jfk and newark and fly right over 'ground zero' on my way to TEB?
>
> Not exactly. The class-B floor dips to 1100' over NY harbor, so you need
> to watch out for that. As for the rest, you have to maintain clearance
> from buildings and such, so you can't safely fly "right over" anything
> except the harbor, the rivers and the bridges unless you get clearance
> into the B.

Yup, and if you're not up in the Class B, you can't always fly right over
all the bridges--you have to avoid coming within 500' of the towers.

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> George Patterson wrote:
>
>> The class-B floor dips to 1100' over NY harbor, so you need to
>> watch out for that.
>
> Be sure you're flying with a terminal chart or - even better - a
> helicopter
> chart. Otherwise, it is too easy to miss one of those little chunks where
> the airspace drops.

The NY TAC has a handy helicopter-chart inset on the back.

--Gary

[Marco Leon]

From what I've heard, FRG is much more spamcan-friendly than TEB. Small
planes are second-class citizens compared to the biz jets at TEB. If you
park at either Long Island Jet Center or Atlantic Aviation, they will take
you to the Farmingdale Long Island Rail Road train station 5 minutes away.
Contrary to what Dave M wrote, an evening trip TO NYC is not rush hour. Even
if it was, the trains operate on a schedule and they're on-time about 95% of
the time so a delay should not be expected. Delays due to other reasons are
usually 5-10 minutes. Actually, trains run every 20 minutes during rush hour
as opposed to once an hour at other times (off-peak) so it's probably better
during rush hour (albeit a bit crowded).

The actual train ride is about 55 minutes and it will take you into Penn
Station like the trains coming from NJ. I would either go to FRG or MMU in
NJ. Weather looks dicey, use caution.

Marco Leon



"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:Z8sgf.14547$om5.11369@dukeread04...
>
> "David Megginson" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > John Doe wrote:
> >
> >> I was thinking about flying the family up to NYC to see the
Thanksgiving
> >> Day
> >> Parade.
> >>
> >> Anyone recommend an airport to fly in to?
> >
> > IFR or VFR?
> >
> > If you're coming in VFR, it's nice to pick an airport on the same side
> > of the class B as you are, all other things being equal. I come from
> > the north, so it's trivially easy to get into Teterboro (KTEB) or
> > Caldwell (KCDW) VFR. IFR, you can get some funky routings no matter
> > what you do. You'll be coming from the south, so I don't know what
> > would work best. Linden? (I've never tried it).
> >
> > I've found that Republic (KFRG), Caldwell, and Teterboro all have
> > similar costs for tie-down and fuel. From Republic, you get a lift in
> > the FBO van to the LIRR station and take the train into Penn Station;
> > from Teterboro, you take an expensive taxi/limo ride or a cheap bus to
> > the Port Authority. From Caldwell, an expensive car/taxi is
> > pretty-much your only realistic choice.
> >
> > Personally, I plan to stick with Teterboro from now on, because I fly
> > in from Canada, and Teterboro has customs onsite at Atlantic Aviation
> > (so I don't have to make an extra stop in Massena). It's on the wrong
> > side of the class B for you, though.
>
> Republic sounds tempting vs TEB. How long is the train ride to Penn
> Station?
>
>
>



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[Peter R.]

Marco Leon <mmleonyahoo.com> wrote:

> From what I've heard, FRG is much more spamcan-friendly than TEB. Small
> planes are second-class citizens compared to the biz jets at TEB.

Not true. If you respond promptly to ATC calls, keep your speed up on
final, and know the taxiways and departure procedures at Teterboro, the
controllers and FBOs will give your spamcan the same excellent service as
the corporate jets.

After flying into and out of there every week during the summer of 2004, my
only complaints were the fees, the dirt that accumulated on my aircraft
every week from having to be tied down outside, and the occasional longer
delays getting out of there IFR.

--
Peter

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter R. wrote:

> After flying into and out of there every week during the summer of 2004,
> my only complaints were the fees

The fees have gone up since. ATC doesn't care, but the people charging for
space on the ground are rather unfriendly to small GA aircraft. In a way,
it makes sense. If we take up the same space as 1/4 of a jet they want to
make the same income as 1/4 of a jet.

- Andrew

[Peter R.]

Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> The fees have gone up since.

Millionair's daily fee at TEB jumped from $30 to $45 when I was flying
there back in 2004. Based on that earlier post showing the fees at all the
FBOs at TEB, it appears it hasn't gone up since. Fuel, on the other hand,
most likely jumped 50% since that time.

--
Peter

[George Patterson]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> However, what is being described is a common route for tourists and
> helicopters: the "Hudson VFR Cooridor" or "Exclusion Zone".

No, he indicated that he wanted to fly "right over ground zero." That's on land
and east of the corridor. Sounded to me like he wants to fly over lower
Manhattan at just under 1500'.

Hanging a left from the exclusion to head for CDW would not be a problem IMO,
though I tend to go a bit further north and avoid TEB airspace. I would be a bit
nervous about trying to contact TEB from the exclusion with intentions of
landing there. I think that's cutting the timing a bit fine. I think it would be
easier to come in through the class-B.

Roger getting the terminal chart. That's a near-necessity for that run.

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.

[George Patterson]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> Yup, and if you're not up in the Class B, you can't always fly right over
> all the bridges--you have to avoid coming within 500' of the towers.

You can clear the decks of the narrows bridge and the GWB with no problems if
you move over near the center of the span. I suspect a lot of us get closer to
the towers of the GWB than we should.

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.

[George Patterson]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> I first learned that trick on my club checkride.

Wish I'd heard of that one a few years ago.

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.

[David Megginson]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> > when you call NY approach from the north flying into KCDW or KTEB,
> > they'll just tell you to descend and remain clear of class B anyway.
>
> That is not my experience. I fly into that area all the time (I primarily
> fly out of CDW), and I cannot recall the last time that occurred. It *has*
> occurred; don't get me wrong. But it's been a long time since.

I should clarify -- NY approach is happy to provide flight following
further out, but when I get close to the class B and switch
frequencies, they direct me underneath. I've come in VFR three times
to KTEB or KCDW from the north and have had the same thing all three
times.


All the best,


David

[David Megginson]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> The fees have gone up since. ATC doesn't care, but the people charging for
> space on the ground are rather unfriendly to small GA aircraft. In a way,
> it makes sense. If we take up the same space as 1/4 of a jet they want to
> make the same income as 1/4 of a jet.

My experience at Atlantic at KTEB in March 2005 was just the opposite.
The line guy directed our Warrior to the place where we would meet
customs, then followed us in a minivan, waited for customs to finish,
led us to the tiedown in the minivan (with my family already in the
van), then drove us all to the FBO. Given that the tie-down was,
maybe, 50 meters from the FBO, I found that pretty excessive, but I
certainly cannot complain about being ignored. I managed to talk them
out of driving us back to the plane for the trip home.


All the best,


David

[John Doe]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
>> The fees have gone up since. ATC doesn't care, but the people charging
>> for
>> space on the ground are rather unfriendly to small GA aircraft. In a
>> way,
>> it makes sense. If we take up the same space as 1/4 of a jet they want
>> to
>> make the same income as 1/4 of a jet.
>
> My experience at Atlantic at KTEB in March 2005 was just the opposite.
> The line guy directed our Warrior to the place where we would meet
> customs, then followed us in a minivan, waited for customs to finish,
> led us to the tiedown in the minivan (with my family already in the
> van), then drove us all to the FBO. Given that the tie-down was,
> maybe, 50 meters from the FBO, I found that pretty excessive, but I
> certainly cannot complain about being ignored. I managed to talk them
> out of driving us back to the plane for the trip home.
>

I talked to all of them on the phone and they all seemed just as eager to
get my business as the next FBO. With that being said, I did think that
Atlantic had the best customer relations over the phone and was looking
forward to giving them a try.

[Andrew Gideon]

John Doe wrote:

> I talked to all of them on the phone and they all seemed just as eager to
> get my business as the next FBO.

Well, I'm surprised but pleased.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

David Megginson wrote:

> I should clarify -- NY approach is happy to provide flight following
> further out, but when I get close to the class B and switch
> frequencies, they direct me underneath. I've come in VFR three times
> to KTEB or KCDW from the north and have had the same thing all three
> times.

It's been a while since I've flown into TEB; I don't recall details.

But flying into CDW from the north (or west), whenever I ask for class B at
some altitude, I've been typically given it. I cannot recall the last time
I told to stay clear/under.

In fact, I've had more trouble getting down than up. I've been held high
too long on occasion, making it a little cumbersome to contact CDW (ie. I
might be *above* their airspace at that point). It's something to watch
for, as TRACON appears to have no problem flying us into CDW's airspace w/o
coordinating it w/the tower.

I think that this is more common coming from the south, but I'm not sure.

- Andrew