Don't fly here...

[Jay Honeck]

The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
today.

Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.

At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as: Newton,
Massachusetts; Clarkstown, New York; Amherst, New York; Mission Viejo,
California; Brick Township, New Jersey; Troy, Michigan; Thousand Oaks,
California; Round Rock, Texas; Lake Forest, California; Cary, North
Carolina.

Strangely, I've flown into three of the ten worst -- and none of the
best! (Although I've visited Mission Viejo...)

Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
they make them sound?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Javier Henderson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
> today.
>
> Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
> Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
> Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
> Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.
>
> At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as: Newton,
> Massachusetts; Clarkstown, New York; Amherst, New York; Mission Viejo,
> California; Brick Township, New Jersey; Troy, Michigan; Thousand Oaks,
> California; Round Rock, Texas; Lake Forest, California; Cary, North
> Carolina.
>
> Strangely, I've flown into three of the ten worst -- and none of the
> best! (Although I've visited Mission Viejo...)
>
> Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
> they make them sound?

Lake Forest, Mission Viejo and Thousand Oaks in California, and Cary in
North Carolina don't have airports. Is this a list of cities by crime rate?

If it's possible to fly out of Cary, I'd like to know, I live just
outside the city limits!

-jav

[Doug]

I suspect they all have heliports at their hospitals. So yes, people
fly in and out of these cities. It also may be possible to land and
take off on private land or a private lake.

[Jay Honeck]

> Lake Forest, Mission Viejo and Thousand Oaks in California, and Cary in
> North Carolina don't have airports. Is this a list of cities by crime rate?
>
> If it's possible to fly out of Cary, I'd like to know, I live just
> outside the city limits!

Here's the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/21/camden.crime.ap/index.html

I stumbled across it while searching for news on the Nike jet with the
gear problem...

It seems that many of the "best" towns don't have airports, sad to
say...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Herring]

I live in Round Rock, Texas. There's no airport here. But, the crime rate
is low, we have the reputation of putting criminals in prison for a long
time. And, the criminals know this and do their business elsewhere.

[Jerry Jesion]

>
>Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
>Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
>Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
>Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.
>

It is interesting to note that one of the top 10 safest,Troy,
Michigan, is ~30 miles from Detroit.

Jerry

[Toks Desalu]

I spent most of my life in St. Louis. Personally, I don't understand why
St.Louis was selected as one of the most dangerous cities. I have seen the
good side and the bad side of this town. I considered the Southside of
Chicago, and several towns near Pittsburgh are more dangerous than
St.Louis. So, I have to say that St. Louis is not as bad as reported by CNN.
I support this statement based on what I personally have seen.

--
Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
> today.
>
> Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
> Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
> Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
> Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.
>
> At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as: Newton,
> Massachusetts; Clarkstown, New York; Amherst, New York; Mission Viejo,
> California; Brick Township, New Jersey; Troy, Michigan; Thousand Oaks,
> California; Round Rock, Texas; Lake Forest, California; Cary, North
> Carolina.
>
> Strangely, I've flown into three of the ten worst -- and none of the
> best! (Although I've visited Mission Viejo...)
>
> Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
> they make them sound?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[kontiki]

One nice thing about flying into "dangerous" places via GA is that you
can pack your pistol without any hassles. :^)

[Longworth]

Jay,

I am quite familiar with quite a few cities on both list having
lived in Michigan, Massachusetts, New York and have brothers and
sisters spread out from the East Coast to West Coast. If you fly
commerical airlines, many times, you don't have any choices but to land
at big airports in the so-called crime cities. Unless one get really
lost, got off the wrong exit etc and wander into bad neighborhoods,
thousands and thousands of passengers have safely flown in and out of
Detroit, St. Louis etc.

Small GA airports can locate anywhere big or small cities but from
my limited flying experience in the last 5 years, most appear to locate
in nice areas free of crimes.

Of course it is expected that big cities with many ghetto areas are
not as safe as tony suburbs. Your average criminal don't live in
expensive neighborhood and the rich tax base helps to provide good
local services including police protection. Sometimes it seems that
too much wealth is concentrated in too few areas. Of course poverty is
no excuse for crimes but there is a strong linkage. It's the chicken or
the egg question.

Hai Longworth

[JohnH]

> Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
> they make them sound?

I live in Richmond; perhaps someone saw my flying and bumped us up on the
list?

We're slipping though; I think at one time we were second only to D.C.. We
can't seem to do anything right.

But seriously, it sure doesn't seem as bad as you might expect. Every town
has it's problem areas, and ours is obviously no exception, but it has
enough good things about it to warrant staying and helping it improve. Most
people I know who move to greener pastures end up right back here.

[Denny]

Hmmm, the wife and me took our planned flying vacation in April...
Turned out to be a nasty weather driving vacation of some 4000 miles...
Went to see the Arch (underwhelming)... In getting back on the highway
I took a wrong turn and wound up in the worst part of St. Louis just
blocks from the arch... Looks just like inner city Flint, and Detroit,
and Chicago, and Philly,and Pittsburg, and Cleveland, and other cities
I have been... Didn't know where I was for sure and I could have been
in any of those cities... (how come a nice country boy like me keeps
getting lost in these places... I don't get lost in the woods.)
So from that perspective St. Louis is neither better nor worse... I
did not feel threatened driving narrow tenement streets in what was
clearly gang territory, with grafiti, and litter...
I can't speak for St. Louis, but Flint and Detroit have to be a hard
row to hoe for the civic officials... The manufacturing base has
collapsed and the upper and middle classes have mostly fled to the
burbs, like Troy, Oakland, etc... The city population has increasing
percentages of deep poverty, prison records, hard drug addiction where
stealing is the only way to obtain the drugs, crumbling infrastructure,
hoplessness, gang bangers controlling entire neighborhoods, alcoholism,
single mother families where each child has a different surname and no
father in the home, declining educational levels and standards... The
social contract is broken... And that social contract involved the
neighbors knowing your business, being willing to help, and being
willing to let you know if they disapproved of your life style and your
childrens behavior..

At the same time these are large cities that come to life in the
morning with choking traffic streaming in from the burbs to the
downtown and business centers, the malls, the corporate headquarters
established in prior eras, the auto plants... Hundred thousand dollar
cars driving past eight thousand dollar houses... But there are not
muggings at the stop lights or fire fights in the Middle of Jefferson
Avenue... Commerce goes on because even poorer people need food,
clothing, medical care, birth records, gasoline, lawn mowers, rental
movies, and on, and on... The court house complex is a major center of
activity and of economic flow with money changing hands... Used car
lots abound... Check cashing stores abound... Rent To Own stores are
legion... Convenience stores sell cigarettes by the pack or by the
single smoke... Beer and liquor sell well... Cheap clothing and cheap
furniture stores multiply... KMART, WALLMART, etc., do well in these
areas... Sams Clubs, and similar stores are not seen in the inner city
as that population base does not make volume purchases, one smoke and a
single beer are more like it...

You do not take your life in your hands traveling through these
cities... However, go bar hopping, hanging around rough places at
night, looking to get high or laid, and they might just find your body
in the morning... Seems from my readings in latin from high school
(long ago in a world far away) that this has been true from the
earliest writings of man, not just since the post industrial hangover
in Michigan... The Roman soldiers knew that there were certain bawdy
houses best avoided if you wanted to be around in the morning...

denny
hemlock, michigan (one stop light away from being just a wide spot in
the road)

[Maule Driver]

Javier Henderson wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
>>today.
>
> Lake Forest, Mission Viejo and Thousand Oaks in California, and Cary in
> North Carolina don't have airports. Is this a list of cities by crime rate?
>
> If it's possible to fly out of Cary, I'd like to know, I live just
> outside the city limits!
>
That's why we live in Durham - for the danger and the airport!

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
> today.
>
> Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
> Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
> Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
> Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.

<snip>>

> Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
> they make them sound?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Atlanta ain't bad. Like anywhere else, there are neighborhoods you don't
want to enter, but the vast majority of the city is a very nice place.

I'd guess the statistics around Atlanta are very skewed. Probably 1.5
million or 2 million people work in the city, but well under a million
people actually live inside the city lines. If a crime happens to a
commuter, it counts in the numerator part of the crime statistics, but not
in the denominator part... That makes the crimes/person figure look worse
than reality.

KB

[Richard Riley]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:23:10 -0500, Javier Henderson
> wrote:

:Jay Honeck wrote:
:> The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
:> today.
:>
:> Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
:> Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
:> Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
:> Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.
:>
:> At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as: Newton,
:> Massachusetts; Clarkstown, New York; Amherst, New York; Mission Viejo,
:> California; Brick Township, New Jersey; Troy, Michigan; Thousand Oaks,
:> California; Round Rock, Texas; Lake Forest, California; Cary, North
:> Carolina.
:>
:> Strangely, I've flown into three of the ten worst -- and none of the
:> best! (Although I've visited Mission Viejo...)
:>
:> Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
:> they make them sound?
:
:Lake Forest, Mission Viejo and Thousand Oaks in California, and Cary in
:North Carolina don't have airports. Is this a list of cities by crime rate?

Lake Forrest and Mission Viejo border each other, and are pretty hard
to tell apart. I can't believe anyone would list them as separate
cities, but they are both incorporated. They're both about 10 miles
south of John Wayne Airport (SNA). Thousand Oaks is about 10 miles
east of Camarillo airport.

On the bad list, I've been to Gary, Atlanta, Detroit, New Orleans and
St. Louis. Gary was horrible. There was nothing there. They were
doing the Miss Universe pagent there while I was there (God only knows
how they picked Gary) and the contestants and TV crew never left the
hotel.

The others cities had something worthwhile, even if (large) sections
were off limits. But Gary was hopeless.

[[email protected]]

Jay,

When I lived in a burb of Chicago, I kept my airplane at the Gary,
Indiana airport. At the time it was the great undiscovered airport in
the Chicago area. The city of Gary was a place to avoid and the days
that I took the train from downtown Chicago to the station nearest the
airport and then had to walk the mile to my hangar, I was always a bit
concerned, but never had any problem. The people at the Gary airport
were absolutely wonderful to me. When the hangar I had developed a
serious leak, airport maintenance personnel used their trucks to help
me move my stuff to another hangar while mine could be repaired. The
airport manager put me into a larger, more expensive hangar but kept
the rental at the lower rate. Hangar rates were the lowest in the
Chicago area and the airport had a number of instrument approaches,
including an ILS.

The downside was the incredible level of air pollution from the
industry in the area, which meant that a layer of dust and grit would
form very fast on all horizontal surfaces in the hangar. The upside
was that I knew the airplane would fly because I could see the air <g>.

Once Meigs was terrorized it meant that figuring out what airport to
use when flying into Chicago got a lot tougher. I've found that it's a
tossup between Gary and Midway, with the prices at Gary being much
lower. Going toward Chicago you do not go through the city, just past
a lot of industry separated rather incongruously by hopelessly tacky
casinos.

Wouldn't care to live in Gary, but unless the airport has gone
seriously downhill, it's a good place to keep an airplane.

I've flown into Troy, Michigan (Oakland Troy Airport). Pretty good
place, surrounded by high dollar city/suburb.

Warmest regards,
Rick

[Brad]

Further, the statistics for Richmond (and perhaps other cities as
well) are skewed in that the crime stats for the City do not include
the suburbs in the surrounding counties that normally balance out the
crime rate. As a homeowner in Richmond and a resident in DC, I feel
much safer in Richmond than I do in DC...especially in the air :)

[Brien K. Meehan]

Michael Moore lives on Park Avenue in Manhattan.

[[email protected]]

There is a DFAH zone (Do Not F*&K Around Here) established in a 100
yard zone on my home in Alabama. The word is out that there is a crazy
foool who WILL shoot your sorry as@ if you make an attempt to penetrate
his home area.
The neighbors consider it the safest zone in the area for 5
miles.......
Ol Shy & Bashful

[[email protected]]

Amen
Ol Shy & Bashful - a wide world traveler and adventurer in the seediest
places out of pure boredom

[AJ]

CNN quotes the mayor of Camden: "We're doing so many nice things now.
It's unfortunate that somebody always wants to bad-mouth Camden," Mayor
Gwendolyn Faison said.

Yeah, if you just ignore that murder, prostitution and drug trafficing
thing ....

[Matt Barrow]

"Brad" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Further, the statistics for Richmond (and perhaps other cities as
> well) are skewed in that the crime stats for the City do not include
> the suburbs in the surrounding counties that normally balance out the
> crime rate.

That's why the stats ar for cities, not metro areas.

> As a homeowner in Richmond and a resident in DC, I feel
> much safer in Richmond than I do in DC...especially in the air :)

I'd feel safer anywhere besides DC.

[Longworth]

wrote:
> I've flown into Troy, Michigan (Oakland Troy Airport). Pretty good
> place, surrounded by high dollar city/suburb.
>
Rick,
We've been to Oakland Troy KVLL several times while visiting my
brother in Troy. It's a friendly airport with reasonable fuel prices
and no charges for landing or overnight tiedown. Our last visit was
the 4th of July weekend, a very nice gentleman spent a considerable
amount of time finding some ropes for us to tie the plane down. We
took our brother's family up for a local flight. When we came back,
the ropes were moved to a different spot. It turned out that a
transient plane had occupied our spot and Jim? took the time to move
the ropes to the next spot ready for our return. In leaving, I offered
him a tip which he did not want to take until I told him that I would
feel much better if he did.
With Michigan being our old homestate, we could be somewhat
partial, but our experience with Michigan aviation community has been
great. To put it midly, it's a marked difference in dealing with New
York and Michigan's ATC ;-)

Hai Longworth

[Matt Barrow]

"AJ" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> CNN quotes the mayor of Camden: "We're doing so many nice things now.
> It's unfortunate that somebody always wants to bad-mouth Camden," Mayor
> Gwendolyn Faison said.
>
> Yeah, if you just ignore that murder, prostitution and drug trafficing
> thing ....
>

"Other than the murders, our crime rate's not that bad." - DC Mayor Marion
Berry

[JohnH]

Brad wrote:

> much safer in Richmond than I do in DC...especially in the air :)

Yo - what's with this moving crap?

e me.

[[email protected]]

kontiki wrote:
> One nice thing about flying into "dangerous" places via GA is that you
> can pack your pistol without any hassles. :^)

Well, the connection between "safest" and conceal carry states is
interesting:

At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as:
Newton, Massachusetts; No CCW
Clarkstown, New York; No CCW
Amherst, New York;
Mission Viejo, California; No CCW
Brick Township, New Jersey; No CCW
Troy, Michigan; yes
Thousand Oaks, California;
Round Rock, Texas; yes
Lake Forest, California;
Cary, North Carolina. Yes

JG

[Jose]

> Well, the connection between "safest" and conceal carry states is
> interesting:
>
> At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as:
> Newton, Massachusetts; No CCW
> Clarkstown, New York; No CCW
> Amherst, New York;
> Mission Viejo, California; No CCW
> Brick Township, New Jersey; No CCW
> Troy, Michigan; yes
> Thousand Oaks, California;
> Round Rock, Texas; yes
> Lake Forest, California;
> Cary, North Carolina. Yes

It's suggestive when presented this way, but deceptively so IMHO (though
I agree with the premise). At least three out of the top ten are "yes"
and at least four of the top ten are "No". The top ten does not span
the range of risk, so the data is not very convincing.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Judah]

I've been back and forth to BWI a bunch of times over the past few months.
Didn't seem all that bad, but then the airport is not actually in the city,
and I never made it much past the airport property...

I haven't been to Gary, IN personally, but one of my Employees has (we have
a customer there) and he said it was pretty well run down. Nothing like
what he heard about in the song.

I've driven through Newton, MA. I think it's a very dangerous city,
especially in a car. Perhaps not more than the rest of Massachusets,
though. Apparently, you don't actually need to know how to drive to get a
license in MA. Most of the Mass-Holes seem to confuse the highway Route #
signs with the Speed Limit signs (Rt 81, Rt 90, Rt 128).

I've been to Atlanta recently. Flew commercially. As with Massachusetts,
driving is definitely high risk. But as far as walking around downtown,
didn't seem very dangerous at all during the day.

Been to New Orleans before the flood. I don't think the flood had a
negative affect on the safety of the city. I remember one time I was down
there, my customer said to make sure I don't go down any alleyways that I
cannot see down first. Apparently, organ harvesting is big business in New
Orleans...



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1132600578.119512.137400
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> The list of the "Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" was released
> today.
>
> Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
> Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia;
> Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary,
> Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.
>
> At the other end of the scale, the safest cities are named as: Newton,
> Massachusetts; Clarkstown, New York; Amherst, New York; Mission Viejo,
> California; Brick Township, New Jersey; Troy, Michigan; Thousand Oaks,
> California; Round Rock, Texas; Lake Forest, California; Cary, North
> Carolina.
>
> Strangely, I've flown into three of the ten worst -- and none of the
> best! (Although I've visited Mission Viejo...)
>
> Anyone regularly fly out of any of these cities? Are they as bad as
> they make them sound?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Matt Whiting]

Judah wrote:
> I've been back and forth to BWI a bunch of times over the past few months.
> Didn't seem all that bad, but then the airport is not actually in the city,
> and I never made it much past the airport property...
>
> I haven't been to Gary, IN personally, but one of my Employees has (we have
> a customer there) and he said it was pretty well run down. Nothing like
> what he heard about in the song.
>
> I've driven through Newton, MA. I think it's a very dangerous city,
> especially in a car. Perhaps not more than the rest of Massachusets,
> though. Apparently, you don't actually need to know how to drive to get a
> license in MA. Most of the Mass-Holes seem to confuse the highway Route #
> signs with the Speed Limit signs (Rt 81, Rt 90, Rt 128).

It is easy once you know the two basic rules - just like in Italy.

1. Whatsa behind is ofa no importance.
2. If you make eye contact, you have yielded the right-of-way.

Follow these two simple rules and you, too, can be a successful driver
in Boston and the rest of MA.


Matt

[Ben Smith]

>I spent most of my life in St. Louis. Personally, I don't understand why
> St.Louis was selected as one of the most dangerous cities. I have seen the
> good side and the bad side of this town. I considered the Southside of
> Chicago, and several towns near Pittsburgh are more dangerous than
> St.Louis. So, I have to say that St. Louis is not as bad as reported by
> CNN.
> I support this statement based on what I personally have seen.

You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.

I came across this interesting page about ESL:

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

[Jay Honeck]

> You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.

East St Louis is one of the scariest places on the planet.

> http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

Interesting. Mary and I stood under the Arch, well after hours, one summer
night not long ago. Everything was closed and deserted, and we were the
ONLY people there. It was lovely, with a moon rising over the city...
Very romantic.

Then, it started to get creepy, knowing how close East St Louis was to us,
and how totally vulnerable we were. There we were, two dumb white people
with big targets painted on our backs, and we high-tailed it out of there.

A bittersweet memory. I still remember when most cities were safe to walk
around in.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[bdl]

Its not that bad Jay. The arch can be pretty creepy at night though,
due to the number of trees that line every walking path. After 5pm
downtown St. Louis pretty much "shuts down" unless there's a sporting
event going on. We're just not a downtown sort of city. The
activities all are happening further west in the suburbs or Clayton.

There has been a recent push (last 5-7 years or so) to develop pocket
sort of communities to attract people to downtown again (Washington Ave
Loft district, Laclede's landing, etc) with differing levels of
success.

[Jay Honeck]

> There has been a recent push (last 5-7 years or so) to develop pocket
> sort of communities to attract people to downtown again (Washington Ave
> Loft district, Laclede's landing, etc) with differing levels of
> success.

Yeah, most larger cities are trying this approach, with varying degrees of
success.

Even Iowa City is developing an area into an "old-fashioned" neighborhood,
with the houses close to the street, front porches, and no garages allowed
to be facing the street. Very 1940s-ish. The zoning is very strict, and --
so far -- the concept has proven to be fairly unpopular.

I think most commentators have missed the REAL reason people have "fled" to
the suburbs. It has less to do with crime, and more to do with wanting a
little land. Personally, I look at these beautiful, newly developed homes
and think "nice house -- where's the back yard"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Toks Desalu]

If they mention East St. Louis, then I would agree with that assesment
without a question. You DO NOT want to set your foot in this town. Keep this
in mind that East St.Louis IS NOT a part of St. Louis. East St. Louis belong
to Illinois, not Missouri. That is a separate city. Don't get confused with
that.

--
Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar
"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> >I spent most of my life in St. Louis. Personally, I don't understand why
> > St.Louis was selected as one of the most dangerous cities. I have seen
the
> > good side and the bad side of this town. I considered the Southside of
> > Chicago, and several towns near Pittsburgh are more dangerous than
> > St.Louis. So, I have to say that St. Louis is not as bad as reported by
> > CNN.
> > I support this statement based on what I personally have seen.
>
> You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.
>
> I came across this interesting page about ESL:
>
> http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html
>
>

[Toks Desalu]

>
> East St Louis is one of the scariest places on the planet.
>
> > http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html
>
> Interesting. Mary and I stood under the Arch, well after hours, one
summer
> night not long ago. Everything was closed and deserted, and we were the
> ONLY people there. It was lovely, with a moon rising over the city...
> Very romantic.
>
> Then, it started to get creepy, knowing how close East St Louis was to us,
> and how totally vulnerable we were. There we were, two dumb white people
> with big targets painted on our backs, and we high-tailed it out of there.

The area on the East St. Louis's rivershore is fine, just a couple of
casinio riverboats. Only the area beyond that is nightmare, especially at
night time.


> A bittersweet memory. I still remember when most cities were safe to
walk
> around in.

You don't feel safe walking around Arch at night time? I thought that this
place was fairly safe, but creepy at night because this place was 'shut
down' like bld said. There is an active night life going on at north side of
Arch (Laclede's landing, etc) I guess you never went there.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> You don't feel safe walking around Arch at night time? I thought that this
> place was fairly safe, but creepy at night because this place was 'shut
> down' like bld said. There is an active night life going on at north side
> of
> Arch (Laclede's landing, etc) I guess you never went there.

Actually, that's where we high-tailed it *to*...

Yeah, all those trees and shrubs around the Arch -- so beautiful in the
daytime -- sure make you feel vulnerable at night. Too many places to hide.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Judah]

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

> It is easy once you know the two basic rules - just like in Italy.
>
> 1. Whatsa behind is ofa no importance.
> 2. If you make eye contact, you have yielded the right-of-way.
>
> Follow these two simple rules and you, too, can be a successful driver
> in Boston and the rest of MA.

Haha!

My most interesting accident in MA was on Route 9 near Framingham. The
light turned red, and everyone came to a stop, except the lady in the car
behind me. Well, eventually she did stop, actually, but not before slamming
into my rear bumper.

Of course, crumple zones and all, her car had more damage than mine. When
we went to exchange insurance info she gave me her business card and said,
"I work for xyz insurance company. This happens all the time. Just call me
and we'll get it taken care of."

I'm not sure, but I figure I was the subject of a field experiment.

[Brad]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Brad" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Further, the statistics for Richmond (and perhaps other cities as
> > well) are skewed in that the crime stats for the City do not include
> > the suburbs in the surrounding counties that normally balance out the
> > crime rate.
>
> That's why the stats ar for cities, not metro areas.

Which is why these stats are meaningless.

>
> > As a homeowner in Richmond and a resident in DC, I feel
> > much safer in Richmond than I do in DC...especially in the air :)
>
> I'd feel safer anywhere besides DC.

Depends where in DC

[bdl]

Interesting, there is a similar thing being developed right at the
left downwind to base corner for 27 at 3SQ (St. Charles, a suburb of
St. Louis) Called New Town. The concept is to create a "neighborhood"
with shops, etc so that you can walk from your house to a restaraunt
etc. Mix of home styles all together, a lake, etc.

You also pay a premium for living there (about 10-15% more than for
similarly sized homes "down the street"), in addition to the zoning
rules, etc. It always seemed to me that it would be like living on the
backlot of a movie set or Disney World. Especially considering the
land it sits on is well separated from any other housing developments,
etc. It was a sod farm in its previous incantation. And underwater in
'94.

A picture can be found at
http://www.newurbannews.com/NewTownInsideJul05.html

When they started putting it in, I assumed if it was successful that it
would be the death of the airport. Supposedly it has been successful,
with Phase II being developed. Although the airport is still kicking.

In my opinion its not crime that causes urban centers to decay,
especially not in St. Louis. It's that the vast majority of jobs are
outside the city center. Living downtown when your job was downtown
made a certain amount of sense (especially if you could get the
niceties of life, food, cultural events, sporting events, etc.) But
why commute OUT of a city center just to say you live there?

Most of the urban revitilazation is targeting the well-off young crowd
(just out of college), the gay community, and the empty-nester retired
community. The feeling is that they will be the most likely to move
in, which will then allow a population to draw further business
development (grocery stores for instance).

Brian
Archer N9093K

[bdl]

Similarly, Central Park in NYC always felt creepy to me after dark
unless you were near a street, and even then its kind of creepy with
the tall brick and concrete walls on the park side.

I think its mostly a sense of people. You don't feel creeped out late
at night around the 4th of July because the place is packed with
people, but when its just a few of you, our animal instincts take over.

In any case my point was that the Arch is probably fine crime wise.
You're more likely to get mugged outside of one of the casino's.
Judging from the news reports that happens rather frequently.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article om>,
"bdl" > wrote:

> Interesting, there is a similar thing being developed right at the
> left downwind to base corner for 27 at 3SQ (St. Charles, a suburb of
> St. Louis) Called New Town. The concept is to create a "neighborhood"
> with shops, etc so that you can walk from your house to a restaraunt
> etc. Mix of home styles all together, a lake, etc.
>
> You also pay a premium for living there (about 10-15% more than for
> similarly sized homes "down the street"), in addition to the zoning
> rules, etc. It always seemed to me that it would be like living on the
> backlot of a movie set or Disney World. Especially considering the
> land it sits on is well separated from any other housing developments,
> etc. It was a sod farm in its previous incantation. And underwater in
> '94.
>
> A picture can be found at
> http://www.newurbannews.com/NewTownInsideJul05.html
>
> When they started putting it in, I assumed if it was successful that it
> would be the death of the airport. Supposedly it has been successful,
> with Phase II being developed. Although the airport is still kicking.

The concept is called "New Urbanism." The major flaw in the concept is
that people choose their shops, based on quality, style and service, not
immediate convenience.

If the restaurants are either greasy spoons that would gag a buzzard or
charge ripoff prices or have lousy service, they will die, regardless of
how close to everybody's house they are. The development COULD even be
an asset to the airport, if pilots find the place attractive and
convenient.

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:0pbhf.9479$%Z5.4071@trndny07...
> The area on the East St. Louis's rivershore is fine, just a couple of
> casinio riverboats.

That would be West East St. Louis?

>Only the area beyond that is nightmare, especially at
> night time.
>

That would be East East St. Louis?

[Jon Kraus]

and Mr. Berry finds that the prices for crack are the lowest in the
tri-state area... :-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ


Matt Barrow wrote:

> "AJ" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>CNN quotes the mayor of Camden: "We're doing so many nice things now.
>>It's unfortunate that somebody always wants to bad-mouth Camden," Mayor
>>Gwendolyn Faison said.
>>
>>Yeah, if you just ignore that murder, prostitution and drug trafficing
>>thing ....
>>
>
>
> "Other than the murders, our crime rate's not that bad." - DC Mayor Marion
> Berry
>
>

[Jack]

Kyle Boatright wrote:

> I'd guess the statistics around Atlanta are very skewed. Probably 1.5
> million or 2 million people work in the city, but well under a million
> people actually live inside the city lines. If a crime happens to a
> commuter, it counts in the numerator part of the crime statistics, but not
> in the denominator part... That makes the crimes/person figure look worse
> than reality.

Only if you can prove that the perps were not residents of ATL.

Count crimes, not victims.


Jack