Polisher/buffer selection

[[email protected]]

I've browsed the old discussions on gelcoat maintenance to learn what
I can before developing a maintenance routine of my own, for my
recently acquired V2C. One thing not yet clear to me is the best way to
use/apply 3M's Finesse-It II, which seems to be the consensus
cleaner/polisher compound: With a high speed (~3000 rpm) polisher, or
something slower? With random orbit or fixed rotary? (Does Finesse-It
II require the generation of heat to do its thing?)

There seems to be a broad range of prices (from ~$30 for a Ryobi 10"
orbital polisher at Home Depot, to $190 for a DeWalt DW849 polisher,
mail order), so this is an investment I want to get right the first
time.

Advance thanks

~ted/2NO

[Gary Evans]

At 19:54 22 November 2005,
wrote:
>I've browsed the old discussions on gelcoat maintenance
>to learn what
>I can before developing a maintenance routine of my
>own, for my
>recently acquired V2C. One thing not yet clear to me
>is the best way to
>use/apply 3M's Finesse-It II, which seems to be the
>consensus
>cleaner/polisher compound: With a high speed (~3000
>rpm) polisher, or
>something slower? With random orbit or fixed rotary?
>(Does Finesse-It
>II require the generation of heat to do its thing?)
>
>There seems to be a broad range of prices (from ~$30
>for a Ryobi 10'
>orbital polisher at Home Depot, to $190 for a DeWalt
>DW849 polisher,
>mail order), so this is an investment I want to get
>right the first
>time.
>
>Advance thanks
>
>~ted/2NO
>
>

Orbital machines are for polishing wax. For any buffing
compound (cutting or finishing) you need a buffer made
for the job and the good ones are not cheap. About
1750rpm and a 8 inch foam pad works well. Use two pads,
one for cutting and one for finishing (3M's Finesse-It).

[[email protected]]

Gary,

Can you help me with some specifics. You said "Orbital machines are for
polishing wax". But if my notes are correct, polishing and waxing are
two different exercises, one preparing the surface and the other
protecting it. Can you clarify?

Also, what is buffing? What is cutting? What's the difference between a
buffer and polisher? 1750rpm and 8 in foam pads on what type or brand
of machine? I see 6, 7, 8, and 10 inch pads; can typical machines
handle multiple pad sizes?

I remember a little less than two years ago going through a state of
careful study mixed with terminal confusion when I was learning about
flight computers, loggers and electric varios. This is déjà vu!

~ted

[Udo Rumpf]

For orbital polishing it pays to invest in a quality polisher/sander.
The key is a "wide adjustable rpm's range" and power.
Mine has a no step range of 750 to 3500 rpm
I invested in a professional Black & Decker unit some 10 years ago .
At the time it was a lot of money. Now that most of this stuff is made in
China
it should be considerably less.
You must avoid heat built up at all cost. Luke warm to the touch is OK.
If too much heat is generated the gel coat will bubble
Udo
>
> There seems to be a broad range of prices (from ~$30 for a Ryobi 10"
> orbital polisher at Home Depot, to $190 for a DeWalt DW849 polisher,
> mail order), so this is an investment I want to get right the first
> time.
>

[Gary Evans]

At 21:24 22 November 2005,
wrote:
>Gary,
>
>Can you help me with some specifics. You said 'Orbital
>machines are for
>polishing wax'. But if my notes are correct, polishing
>and waxing are
>two different exercises, one preparing the surface
>and the other
>protecting it. Can you clarify?
>
>Also, what is buffing? What is cutting? What's the
>difference between a
>buffer and polisher? 1750rpm and 8 in foam pads on
>what type or brand
>of machine? I see 6, 7, 8, and 10 inch pads; can typical
>machines
>handle multiple pad sizes?
>
>I remember a little less than two years ago going through
>a state of
>careful study mixed with terminal confusion when I
>was learning about
>flight computers, loggers and electric varios. This
>is d=E9j=E0 vu!
>
>~ted


Sorry for the confusion. The terms often get used interchangeably.
Orbital polishers are what you would typically use
for applying and/or polishing an automotive type of
wax although I find it just as easy to do the waxing
by hand.
Buffing is a much more aggressive way to finish paint
and/or gel coat. Cutting refers to the use of stronger
compounds that you would typically use after the final
wet sanding step. It is the step between sanding and
buffing with super fine compounds like 3M's Finesse-It.
What you start with needs to be determined by the condition
of the existing finish. Plain wax will not remove any
imperfections in gel coat so for very slight imperfections
you would first try finesse-It and only move into more
aggressive cutting compounds if needed. You obviously
want to remove no more gel coat in the process than
absolutely necessary. Wax would be applied after final
buffing.

[Udo Rumpf]

Buffing and polishing is done with the same machine I mentioned earlier
The Buffing compound will do just fine after 600 grid.
I used successfully Aqua Buff 1000 and 2000 in succession.
Results are just great.
It is made by Hawk Eye Industries Inc. As the name implies it is water based
and has no silicones or solvents in it.
By the way all is done with the same wool pad. It is a piece of cake.
Udo

Can you help me with some specifics. You said "Orbital machines are for
polishing wax". But if my notes are correct, polishing and waxing are
two different exercises, one preparing the surface and the other
protecting it. Can you clarify?

Also, what is buffing? What is cutting? What's the difference between a
buffer and polisher? 1750rpm and 8 in foam pads on what type or brand
of machine? I see 6, 7, 8, and 10 inch pads; can typical machines
handle multiple pad sizes?

I remember a little less than two years ago going through a state of
careful study mixed with terminal confusion when I was learning about
flight computers, loggers and electric varios. This is déjà vu!

~ted

[Udo Rumpf]

Correction I mean "none orbital"

"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
. ..
> For orbital polishing it pays to invest in a quality polisher/sander.
> The key is a "wide adjustable rpm's range" and power.
> Mine has a no step range of 750 to 3500 rpm
> I invested in a professional Black & Decker unit some 10 years ago .
> At the time it was a lot of money. Now that most of this stuff is made in
> China
> it should be considerably less.
> You must avoid heat built up at all cost. Luke warm to the touch is OK.
> If too much heat is generated the gel coat will bubble
> Udo
>>
>> There seems to be a broad range of prices (from ~$30 for a Ryobi 10"
>> orbital polisher at Home Depot, to $190 for a DeWalt DW849 polisher,
>> mail order), so this is an investment I want to get right the first
>> time.
>>
>

[Bob Salvo]

A non orbital polisher is available at automotive parts stores, like Pep
Boys here in New Hampshire, for about $50. Check out Aqua-Buff 2000 for
your polishing compound if your surface is not too bad:
http://www.duratec1.com/dp17-18.html

Bob

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> There seems to be a broad range of prices (from ~$30 for a Ryobi 10"
> orbital polisher at Home Depot, to $190 for a DeWalt DW849 polisher,
> mail order), so this is an investment I want to get right the first
> time.
>
> Advance thanks
>
> ~ted/2NO
>

[[email protected]]

Jeez, Tuno, it's practically brand new! Just lovingly apply something
like Wx Block/Wx Seal - by hand, so you can really feel the beauty of
the glider - and enjoy!

Less chance of ripping off seals that way, too!

66

[[email protected]]

How often should the oxydation be polished off then, Kirk?

My crew will like the idea of polishing by hand. She likes to help, and
save money at the same time!

~tuno

[[email protected]]

Kirk, I'm also trying to solve the problem of the layer of fossilized
ballast that's firmly stuck to much of my fuselage and underwings. It
laughs at the Wx and I want to declare war.

~tuno

[Robert Backer]

Ted, you fine a answer to that problem short of sanding, please advise.
I have tried lime away and wx also without success.

Bob


wrote:
> Kirk, I'm also trying to solve the problem of the layer of fossilized
> ballast that's firmly stuck to much of my fuselage and underwings. It
> laughs at the Wx and I want to declare war.
>
> ~tuno
>

[bumper]

I bought the Porter-Cable Mod. 7335 as it was recommended for us with the
Micro-Mesh acrylic windshield repair and polishing kit. Well made tool.

bumper

"Robert Backer" > wrote in message
news:6QOgf.4765$pF.3389@fed1read04...
> Ted, you fine a answer to that problem short of sanding, please advise. I
> have tried lime away and wx also without success.
>
> Bob
>
>
> wrote:
>> Kirk, I'm also trying to solve the problem of the layer of fossilized
>> ballast that's firmly stuck to much of my fuselage and underwings. It
>> laughs at the Wx and I want to declare war.
>>
>> ~tuno
>>

[[email protected]]

Tuno, I just cringe at using power tools on a glider unless it's
absolutely necessary. But I'll defer to the experts....

However, no powertools are allowed near 66 - only handjobs!

Kirk

[Ken Kochanski (KK)]

I used the 3M Hookit SBS pad system (compounding and polishing) with
Finesse-It II ... and the DeWalt DW849.

I think the brand of polisher is less important. Having a 0 -
1000/3000 RPM speed cntrol in the trigger helps tremendously, however.
You can apply and spread the Finesse-it at low speed with minimal
splatter, and increase RPMs as required to get the optimal polishing
effect.

http://sailplane-racing.org/general.htm

KK

[Gary Evans]

At 13:42 23 November 2005, Ken Kochanski Kk wrote:
>
>I used the 3M Hookit SBS pad system (compounding and
>polishing) with
>Finesse-It II ... and the DeWalt DW849.
>
>I think the brand of polisher is less important. Having
>a 0 -
>1000/3000 RPM speed cntrol in the trigger helps tremendously,
>however.
>You can apply and spread the Finesse-it at low speed
>with minimal
>splatter, and increase RPMs as required to get the
>optimal polishing
>effect.
>
>http://sailplane-racing.org/general.htm
>
>KK
>

The next usual winter question is what is the best
wax. Where is JJ when we need him??
>

[Ruud]

Have a look at: http://www.streifly.de/Price3-00.htm
The machine is a Bosch GPO 12E


On 22 Nov 2005 11:52:39 -0800, wrote:

>I've browsed the old discussions on gelcoat maintenance to learn what
>I can before developing a maintenance routine of my own, for my
>recently acquired V2C. One thing not yet clear to me is the best way to
>use/apply 3M's Finesse-It II, which seems to be the consensus
>cleaner/polisher compound: With a high speed (~3000 rpm) polisher, or
>something slower? With random orbit or fixed rotary? (Does Finesse-It
>II require the generation of heat to do its thing?)
>
>There seems to be a broad range of prices (from ~$30 for a Ryobi 10"
>orbital polisher at Home Depot, to $190 for a DeWalt DW849 polisher,
>mail order), so this is an investment I want to get right the first
>time.
>
>Advance thanks
>
>~ted/2NO

[KO]

I use a DeWalt 849 with an edge buffer (see Eastern Sailplane website
for that) 4 disks, Finesse it/ Hard wax and WX Block for final... but
remember... polishing with such gear yields amazing results... but can
be extremely dangerous for yourself and mostly for your glider...
Regards
Enrique
wrote:
> How often should the oxydation be polished off then, Kirk?
>
> My crew will like the idea of polishing by hand. She likes to help, and
> save money at the same time!
>
> ~tuno

[Andy]

The long term answer to that problem may be not to use use the airport
water, I never do.

Andy

[Guy Acheson]

I agree. For my LS8-18 I only use distilled water.
No mineral deposits, the seals stay absolutely clean
and soft. You may laugh but it costs less than the
fuel it takes to launch with a motor glider. I just
buy 5 gallon jugs from the local Silver Springs water
guy at my home. Easy to transport. Nice easy handling
jugs. And they deliver! For wave flying I add some
ethanol, 1-5% by volume. That prevents freezing and
when you land you can make cocktails with the left
overs. 95% ethanol is available from your pharmacy.
White Lightning is the medical terminology. For military
types it is Class 6 ethanol.

At 17:48 23 November 2005, Andy wrote:
>The long term answer to that problem may be not to
>use use the airport
>water, I never do.
>
>Andy
>
>

[Gary Evans]

At 00:30 23 November 2005,
wrote:
>Kirk, I'm also trying to solve the problem of the layer
>of fossilized
>ballast that's firmly stuck to much of my fuselage
>and underwings. It
>laughs at the Wx and I want to declare war.
>
>~tuno
>

I wouldn't try to buff off lime deposits. Use 1 part
muriatic acid to 3 parts water (ALWAYS POUR THE ACID
INTO THE WATER) and apply with a sponge. While not
real a strong acid mix keep it off your skin and clothes.
This is the standard lime remover for pool equipment.
>

[Ray Lovinggood]

I don't know if the following will remove lime deposits,
but it cleaned up my dirty old gel coat very nicely:

Use scouring powder, such as Comet or Ajax. Get the
type with bleach.

I used a sponge and a good bit of water and thoroughly
scrubbed my entire glider. I guess it is similar to
sanding.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 12:24 24 November 2005, Gary Evans wrote:
>At 00:30 23 November 2005,
>wrote:
>>Kirk, I'm also trying to solve the problem of the layer
>>of fossilized
>>ballast that's firmly stuck to much of my fuselage
>>and underwings. It
>>laughs at the Wx and I want to declare war.
>>
>>~tuno
>>
>
>I wouldn't try to buff off lime deposits. Use 1 part
>muriatic acid to 3 parts water (ALWAYS POUR THE ACID
>INTO THE WATER) and apply with a sponge. While not
>real a strong acid mix keep it off your skin and clothes.
>This is the standard lime remover for pool equipment.
>>
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Where do I get muriatic acid? Pool supply stores?

[[email protected]]

Distilled water! Wow! Will they deliver to Hobbs, Moriarty, and Ely?

Is there anything that can be added to hard city water to prevent it
from leaving a deposit?

[Gary Evans]

At 15:42 24 November 2005,
wrote:
>Where do I get muriatic acid? Pool supply stores?
>
>


Most any place that sells pool supplies will carry
it. Should also mention to not get it on metal parts,
as it will cause corrosion.

[[email protected]]

I will keep it well clear of the left handed gizflitchy :)

[Tony Verhulst]

wrote:
> Where do I get muriatic acid? Pool supply stores?

Another name for hydrochloric acid. Most hardware stores have it as it's
commonly used for cleaning concrete (in diluted form, of course).

Tony V
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[[email protected]]

I went to an Automotive Finish store and they were quite helpful with
buffers and such. I bought a variable speed 750 ~ 3000 rpm of
questionable lineage, but I figured using it 2 or three times a year I
would do just fine and in my 3rd year it has been just that. I think I
paid 110 US clams. I made up for it in accessories though. You will buy
a soft rubber disk that attaches to the buffer. It's face has velcro
"hooks" that will provide the surface for whatever foam or wool pads
you plan to attach. The pad as the "loops" of the velcro. I works well,
velcro is magic.

Here is a link for some auto equip that has pictures of the pads and
such.

http://www.levineautoparts.com/buffers.html

You can go on 3M's site, but it is quite cumbersome. Just google foam
compound pad 3M and you will find all sorts of places and pictures.

Remember that you are polishing plastic, not paint. Keep the rpms down
below 2000 and keep moving or you will heat things up, and that is VERY
bad.

After polishing with the perfect it, make sure you get all the grit off
by going over it with a cloth by hand. After that, I use the WX block
and apply it by hand, then use the wool pad with the buffer to knock
off the haze and WALLAH. You will need sunglasses to rig, and it will
last a good season. I don't recommend using the perfect it too
frequently, not even yearly. It is a rubbing compound, so every time
you use it you are taking off material. Do it once, and keep a good wax
on it and that is all you will need if you keep up the wax. I believe
there is a Marine 3M product with little or no silicone that is similar
to WX block, but I can't seem to run into it and WX block is only a
phone call away.

One other thing. You will sling it everywhere, so don't do this in a
tuxedo or around anything that won't like dried compound on it. Don't
get it on your canopy, and if you do, get it off with a wet cloth
before it dries so you don't scratch it. I had the wing next to the
fuselage first time- I found out the hard way.

Oh. Do your ailerons by hand, don't even think about it.

Good Luck

Joe Flores Atlanta GA



wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Can you help me with some specifics. You said "Orbital machines are for
> polishing wax". But if my notes are correct, polishing and waxing are
> two different exercises, one preparing the surface and the other
> protecting it. Can you clarify?
>
> Also, what is buffing? What is cutting? What's the difference between a
> buffer and polisher? 1750rpm and 8 in foam pads on what type or brand
> of machine? I see 6, 7, 8, and 10 inch pads; can typical machines
> handle multiple pad sizes?
>
> I remember a little less than two years ago going through a state of
> careful study mixed with terminal confusion when I was learning about
> flight computers, loggers and electric varios. This is déjà vu!
>
> ~ted

[Andy]

When Estrella still had a working well I filled my water tank from it
then added about a cup of white vinegar. The salts are deposited to the
bottom of the water tank. This only works if you use a transfer tank
of course. City of Glendale water does not seem to be a problem.

If you have to use hard water dry the glider off first thing after
clearing the runway.

Andy

[Andy]

Use a water transfer tank. Add about a cup of white vinegar for 50
gals of water. Salts are deposited out before water is loaded into
wings.


Andy

[Kilo Charlie]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Where do I get muriatic acid? Pool supply stores?
>
Home Depot, Ace, pool suppliers.

KC

[[email protected]]

I tried CLR yesterday and it didn't do a thing.

I've been told that getting muriatic acid near a V2 would be considered
"glider abuse".

I guess the sandpaper is next!

~tuno

[Eric Greenwell]

Guy Acheson wrote:
> I agree. For my LS8-18 I only use distilled water.
> No mineral deposits, the seals stay absolutely clean
> and soft. You may laugh but it costs less than the
> fuel it takes to launch with a motor glider.

To launch your LS8 with a motor glider, or to just launch a motorglider?
What does a 5 gallons jug cost you?

> I just
> buy 5 gallon jugs from the local Silver Springs water
> guy at my home. Easy to transport. Nice easy handling
> jugs. And they deliver! For wave flying I add some
> ethanol, 1-5% by volume.

How much does that depress the freezing point?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Gary Evans]

At 17:24 26 November 2005,
wrote:
>I tried CLR yesterday and it didn't do a thing.
>
>I've been told that getting muriatic acid near a V2
>would be considered
>'glider abuse'.
>
>I guess the sandpaper is next!
>

Would they think this is less abusive on fiberglass?
http://tinyurl.com/72qbn
Note the active ingredient.