Weddell-Williams racer #121 Gilmore Red Lion

[Ted]

I want to build a Weddell-Williams racer. The #121 Gilmore Red Lion
version. Does anyone know where I can get a set of plans for it?
I'm just finishing my present homebuilt and need a new project.

[Big John]

Ted

Try looking for the following Museum in LA if Katrina didn't demolish
it? They might have some plans but probably most of the birds of that
era were hand built, one each cut to fit.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````

Wedell-Williams "Red Lion"

Jimmie Wedell and Harry Williams formed an air service in
Patterson, Louisiana in 1928, but went on to become nationally
prominent during what was known as the Golden Age of Aviation. They
won numerous races, but both eventually perished in plane crashes.
The Red Lion was one of their most famous planes. The Wedell-Williams
Museum was established by the Louisiana state legislature as the
state's official aviation museum.
``````````````````````````````````````````````````

Big John
************************************************** **********

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:05:36 -0500, Ted >
wrote:

>I want to build a Weddell-Williams racer. The #121 Gilmore Red Lion
>version. Does anyone know where I can get a set of plans for it?
>I'm just finishing my present homebuilt and need a new project.

[Ted]

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:03:34 -0600, Big John >
wrote:

>Ted
>
>Try looking for the following Museum in LA if Katrina didn't demolish
>it? They might have some plans but probably most of the birds of that
>era were hand built, one each cut to fit.
>`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````
>
>Wedell-Williams "Red Lion"
>
> Jimmie Wedell and Harry Williams formed an air service in
>Patterson, Louisiana in 1928, but went on to become nationally
>prominent during what was known as the Golden Age of Aviation. They
>won numerous races, but both eventually perished in plane crashes.
>The Red Lion was one of their most famous planes. The Wedell-Williams
>Museum was established by the Louisiana state legislature as the
>state's official aviation museum.
>``````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>Big John

I got a note from Jim Kimbell in Florida, who informed me that the one
they built was basically a "napkin" airplane. So it seems the ones
that have been built since the golden age had to be designed all over
again to look like the original. A daunting task indeed. A set of
plans would be nice to get a hold of, but there are those out in the
field that can self-engineer a plane like that. But the cost is
astronomical. Us do-it-yourselfers are stuck tyring to settle on the
structure design independently. From the research I've done, the
Weddell-Williams racers weren't as dangerous as the Gee Bees.
But they are no short field airplanes either.

[John T]

You might get outlines and idea from model airplanes, both plastic and
radio control.

John

[Ed Sullivan]

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 20:34:59 -0600, John T > wrote:

>You might get outlines and idea from model airplanes, both plastic and
>radio control.
>
>John
>
Replicas have been built. See Sport Aviation, April 1991, March 1991,
Feb.,1998 and Nov. 1993

[Ted]

>>
>Replicas have been built. See Sport Aviation, April 1991, March 1991,
>Feb.,1998 and Nov. 1993

Fortunately, I have that cd set of sport aviation. I've been reading
the stories by Budd Davidson about the building of the
Weddell-Williams racer. I had remembered in the back of my mind
reading those articles, but couldn't remember where I had read them.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. So it seems drawings do
exist. somewhere.

[D.Reid]

You might try contacting the NASM in Washington D.C. The archives division
may well have the original drawings, specs or notes for these airplanes if
ant exist.
Dave
"Ted" > wrote in message
...
> I want to build a Weddell-Williams racer. The #121 Gilmore Red Lion
> version. Does anyone know where I can get a set of plans for it?
> I'm just finishing my present homebuilt and need a new project.
>

[Ed Sullivan]

>"Ted" > wrote in message
...
>> I want to build a Weddell-Williams racer. The #121 Gilmore Red Lion
>> version. Does anyone know where I can get a set of plans for it?
>> I'm just finishing my present homebuilt and need a new project.
>>
>
>
You might research the articles in Sport Aviation. The exact replica
according to the test pilot Carl Pascarelli (or something like that)
it was a bit of a handful.

Ed Sullivan

[K. Kimball]

Three replica model 44 Wedell-Williams aircraft were started at the
same time in the 1970's. These were being built by A North Carolina
man with design work by another guy. #44 was completed first and #121
was about half done later to be owned and completed by a man in the
northeast with final details done at our shop. #92 never progressed
beyond a basic fuselage frame I think.

The #44 replica was a handful to as mentioned in this thread. However,
the original was not so bad according to records. Keep in mind that
these replicas were not accurate. Many, many changes were made by the
designer and builder for various reasons. The cockpits was raised,
landing gear moved, wing airfoil changed, thicker wing, longer wing,
larger tail feathers are some of the changes. Others include simply
over building creating a very heavy airplane. The red and black one
ended up with a very aft, that is way aft, CG problem as well as the
wing was set at a lower than designed incedence. These things made it
very hard to fly along with the shape changes.

So, after it was damaged by hurricane Andrew, it was rebuilt to get it
to a proper CG and was found to be quite nice to fly. The #121 replica
used a different method of CG change. Put a bigger engine on it,
bigger yet tail and thicker wings. That too worked. But in both
cases, the airplanes are not true to form model 44 Wedell-Williams
airplanes. They are homebuilts that are similar is shape and paint
job.

I have often wanted to replicate a Wedell accurately as we did on our
Gee Bee replica. When we built the Gee Bee, many people told us to
change this or that. No one will know. However, we decided to build
it as close to original as we could determine just as Youngkin did with
his replicas and Delmar and Steve with their R2. We ended up with a
great flying airplane and learned what a Gee Bee Z was instead of
learning what a spezio tuholer with a replica paint job was like.

My personal favorite form of WW racer is the Utican which was #92 later
in life. All white and had nice fairings. If I were approached to
build a WW, this is the one I would go after.

I suggest contacting the WW museum in Patterson, LA. It is located
just feet from where all the WW airplanes were born. A visit there
would be a big help in your quest for WW info as they have replicas of
the airplanes there. http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/wedellex.htm

I think the replica 121 is currently in Kissimmee, FL at Tom Riley's.
You can visit it there.

Another suggestion is to visit the Crawford Museum in Cleveland. There
you can see the original #121 as it still exists. It is in the later
form of #57 but it is the actual airplane.

By visiting these places and seeing the replicas and then seeing the
real thing in Ohio, you will be able to note the many changes that were
made. As it turns out, the boys back then wern't as dumb as some would
have you think. The airplanes worked, were fast and made money.

One last note before I end this long post. Be prepared to spend about
$150k in parts and materials to build a WW plus about 6000 hours of
labor if you do find enough data to build one. Engineering costs would
be additional to that number.

Happy holidays to you all.

Kevin

[Morgans]

"Ed Sullivan" > wrote

> You might research the articles in Sport Aviation. The exact replica
> according to the test pilot Carl Pascarelli (or something like that)
> it was a bit of a handful.

If that were so, and someone really wanted to build one, there always is
the possibility of taming it a little. That is assuming that the person is
not an exact scale kind of nut.

Add a little to the fin, and lengthen the wings a little, and maybe make it
a little thicker, too. Get the CG a little more forward, if that is a
problem. (like it is in many golden racers)

If the changes are done in relatively small percentage changes, most will
still recognize it, and few will notice any difference.
--
Jim in NC