buy your sailplane scam?

[[email protected]]

Wings and Wheels has a warning on it's classified page:

Warning !
If you receive an email similar to this example
it is a scam
"Hello,I Am interested in buying your advertised ads for sale {JANTAR
GFK SAILPLANE} that been posted on the ad 2004 i am a seller that buy
items and resell so want to buy your JANTAR SAILPLANE. I will like to
know the actual price you want to offer it for sale and the present
condition and the pics of it.and mode of my payment will be a cheque
drawn from an UK bank. Note that the shipping will be handle by my
shipper that will come to you house for that pickup,if this is okay by
you i want you to get back to me with your full name, your full contact
address and your full phone number. best regards Smith."

How is this scam supposed to work?

I'm getting some interest on a glider I'm selling from someone who's
emails look suspiciously like that above. How does this work?

Thanks,
Matt

[Andy Blackburn]

At 16:12 10 December 2005, wrote:

>How is this scam supposed to work?
>
>I'm getting some interest on a glider I'm selling from
>someone who's
>emails look suspiciously like that above. How does
>this work?
>

It's one of a class of internet scams collectively
referred to as the Nigerian scam. Here's a description,
though there are many variants:

http://www.sailingtexas.com/chumor4.html

9B

[BTIZ]

"Andy Blackburn" > wrote in message
...
> At 16:12 10 December 2005, wrote:
>
>>How is this scam supposed to work?
>>
>>I'm getting some interest on a glider I'm selling from
>>someone who's
>>emails look suspiciously like that above. How does
>>this work?
>>
>
> It's one of a class of internet scams collectively
> referred to as the Nigerian scam. Here's a description,
> though there are many variants:
>
> http://www.sailingtexas.com/chumor4.html
>
> 9B
>
It has also been done to the unsuspecting around here.. car for sale ad in
the local papers..
and the "scam artist" pays with to large of a bogus bank draft.. takes the
"change and the car" and then when the bank comes back and denies the
deposit because it is counterfeit.. the car seller is "accused of passing
bad paper"
BT

[[email protected]]

I read the boat for sale exchange. What a hoot! Can you imagine
someone in the United Arab Emirates buying a vintage Cherokee glider
without asking about flying qualities condition etc. and paying the
shipping!? It must be that billionaire sultan VSA member who is
setting up the museum there. Yup, that's gotta be it...

MM

[Mike the Strike]

It gets worse, though.

Many of the cashier's checks or drafts are such good counterfeits that
the bank may actually deposit the money in your account and then suck
it out again a week or so later when they discover it's bogus. This
only happens when it's presented to the "issuing" bank in Lagos or
wherever.

If the checks were bounced on presentation, it wouldn't be such a big
problem. But people end up seeing the money in their account, wiring
the "extra" to the "buyer", then owing the bank money when the original
deposit is reversed.

Of course, it's worse for goods that are smaller and easily shipped.
In those cases, you're out the goods as well as the money.

Maybe Tim Mara will share with the group his actual experience of such
a scam - he told me about this some time ago.

Mike

[[email protected]]

I would like to hear of any accounts of sellers succeeding in scamming
the scammer...

~tuno

[Shawn]

wrote:
> I would like to hear of any accounts of sellers succeeding in scamming
> the scammer...
>
> ~tuno
>
The classic:
http://www.419eater.com/html/joe_eboh.htm

Shawn

[[email protected]]

Already aware of that one Shawn (it is a 419 classic!), but I'm
wondering if any *glider* sellers have managed to scam any of these
deadbeats ...

[Shawn]

wrote:
> Already aware of that one Shawn (it is a 419 classic!), but I'm
> wondering if any *glider* sellers have managed to scam any of these
> deadbeats ...
>
No, hadn't heard of any.

Shawn

[[email protected]]

Shawn wrote:
> wrote:
> > Already aware of that one Shawn (it is a 419 classic!), but I'm
> > wondering if any *glider* sellers have managed to scam any of these
> > deadbeats ...
> >
> No, hadn't heard of any.
>
> Shawn

Simple: deposit the check and wait. The guy will scream and you just
ignore it. Two weeks should be adequate for the check to clear the
issuing bank (you can always contact that bank to see if they actually
issued it).

You can read about reverse scams (scamsters being scammed) at:

http://www.reversescam.com/

Tom

[Martin Gregorie]

wrote:
>
> Simple: deposit the check and wait. The guy will scream and you just
> ignore it. Two weeks should be adequate for the check to clear the
> issuing bank (you can always contact that bank to see if they actually
> issued it).
>
That's not nearly long enough to wait.

Last time I needed to deposit a US cheque in my UK account the bank
quoted typically 4 weeks for it to clear. I don't know how long the
opposite (UK cheque in US account) would take, but its probably not any
faster. For comparison, internal UK cheque clearance takes 4 days.

Given that I'd expect a LOT longer for cheques from Nigeria to clear.

BTW, what's all this about getting the money in your account before the
cheque or draft has cleared? In the UK the money doesn't hit your
account until clearance is complete. OK, we have to wait longer to use
the money, but at least we aren't embarrassed by having to repay the
bank if we're given a bad cheque.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[pbc76049]

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>>
>> Simple: deposit the check and wait. The guy will scream and you just
>> ignore it. Two weeks should be adequate for the check to clear the
>> issuing bank (you can always contact that bank to see if they actually
>> issued it).
>>
> That's not nearly long enough to wait.
>
>

I have a friend I race with that has checks on his wall.
Since he KNOWS this is a scam, he reports it to the
POSTAL FRAUD authoritys who get into the act.
He hasn't lost a penny and has some nice art for his shop.

Scott.

[Mike the Strike]

US federal banking laws require banks to make funds from deposits
available quite quickly. Funds from cashiers checks are typically
honored overnight but this deposit is reversed if the check
subsequently bounces. It is this window of a week or two that makes
the seller vulnerable here.

Because of this quirk of US laws, it makes this country more
vulnerable. Maybe there are more gullible people here too!

[Martin Gregorie]

Mike the Strike wrote:
>
> Because of this quirk of US laws, it makes this country more
> vulnerable. Maybe there are more gullible people here too!
>
I was just pointing out that, if you're not used to handling foreign
bank drafts and cheques, that they take *much* longer to clear than
seems reasonable.

I make no comment about gullibility. However, I would say that those
quirks are bad law because:
(1) they hide the real banking mechanisms from account holders and this
exposes them to needless risk.
(2) I bet it makes the banks fat, slow and lazy in their paper shuffling.

We're often irritated about the length of time it takes a UK-issued
cheque to clear (4 working days) and commonly suspect it's a banking
scam so they can play the overnight markets with the cash. OTOH it does
reduce the account-holder's risk: when the money appears its guaranteed
to be clear and usable.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
> Wings and Wheels has a warning on it's classified page:
>
> Warning !
> If you receive an email similar to this example
> it is a scam
> "Hello,I Am interested in buying your advertised ads for sale {JANTAR
> GFK SAILPLANE} that been posted on the ad 2004 i am a seller that buy
> items and resell so want to buy your JANTAR SAILPLANE. I will like to
> know the actual price you want to offer it for sale and the present
> condition and the pics of it.and mode of my payment will be a cheque
> drawn from an UK bank. Note that the shipping will be handle by my
> shipper that will come to you house for that pickup,if this is okay by
> you i want you to get back to me with your full name, your full contact
> address and your full phone number. best regards Smith."
>
> How is this scam supposed to work?
>
> I'm getting some interest on a glider I'm selling from someone who's
> emails look suspiciously like that above. How does this work?

Gliders are so specialized, I think the seller could easily determine
whether the buyer is legitimate. Call him, tell him you'd like to know
him a bit better before completing the deal, and ask about his gliding
experience, where he flies, what club he belongs, and what launch method
he uses. A real glider pilot should be eager to discuss soaring, and a
few minutes of conversation would be enough to determine he is a glider
pilot. A "glider pilot" with no connections to anything glider related,
and no knowledge of soaring, is not a glider pilot.

Another possibility: perhaps an escrow account could be set up and let
the money sit there for a period acceptable to both parties, before the
glider and cash are exchanged.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[[email protected]]

The real give-away that this is a scam is there willingness to:
1. Send you a cashier's check without inspection of goods (glider)
2. The check is for MORE than the amount of the glider.
I cannot imagine a legimate buyer who would do this. My suggestion was
totally aimed at ****ing off these scammers.

The FBI and U.S. Postal Service don't persue these guys because the
Nigerian government looks the other way and will not cooperate, so you
can save your time r.e. reporting the scam.

Tom

[Chris Reed]

Martin,

Not so - many UK banks now make uncleared funds available. They *will*
claw it back if the cheque fails to clear. The practice you described
ceased to be universal about five years ago (from memory).

If you're depending on a cheque or draft you've deposited, check with
your bank before spending it in case it's uncleared funds.

Different UK banks deal with this in different ways, so non-clearing
banks (e.g. Abbey or other former building societies) might make you
wait until clearance, but clearing banks may not - Barclays, for
example, credits the deposit (notionally) the following working day.


Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Mike the Strike wrote:
>
>>
>> Because of this quirk of US laws, it makes this country more
>> vulnerable. Maybe there are more gullible people here too!
>>
> I was just pointing out that, if you're not used to handling foreign
> bank drafts and cheques, that they take *much* longer to clear than
> seems reasonable.
>
> I make no comment about gullibility. However, I would say that those
> quirks are bad law because:
> (1) they hide the real banking mechanisms from account holders and this
> exposes them to needless risk.
> (2) I bet it makes the banks fat, slow and lazy in their paper shuffling.
>
> We're often irritated about the length of time it takes a UK-issued
> cheque to clear (4 working days) and commonly suspect it's a banking
> scam so they can play the overnight markets with the cash. OTOH it does
> reduce the account-holder's risk: when the money appears its guaranteed
> to be clear and usable.
>
>

[Martin Gregorie]

Owain Walters wrote:
> Anyone thinking that 4 days is enough to clear a cheque
> might find the link below useful/interesting/worrying:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/3727888.stm
>
A good piece.

Thanks for drawing it to my attention. I must read the relevant part of
the T&C more closely and remember the one-off phone/Internet bit.

As it happens I do use CHAPS for large payments, like gliders. Its worth
knowing that there is a lower value limit to CHAPS payments. It used to
be 20K but was dropped to 7K quid a few years back to bring new car
purchases within the limits. I don't know what it is now. It was
introduced to keep network traffic within sensible bounds.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[Chris Reed]

CHAPS is same day, and guaranteed under Chaps rules the moment it's
acknowledged by the receiving bank.

I'm pretty sure there is now no lower limit, so it's fine for glider
purchases UK to UK.

Unfortunately the equivalent (SWIFT) for international purchases is not
same day (varies with receiving bank) and costs a lot more.


Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Owain Walters wrote:
>
>> Anyone thinking that 4 days is enough to clear a cheque
>> might find the link below useful/interesting/worrying:
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/3727888.stm
>>
> A good piece.
>
> Thanks for drawing it to my attention. I must read the relevant part of
> the T&C more closely and remember the one-off phone/Internet bit.
>
> As it happens I do use CHAPS for large payments, like gliders. Its worth
> knowing that there is a lower value limit to CHAPS payments. It used to
> be 20K but was dropped to 7K quid a few years back to bring new car
> purchases within the limits. I don't know what it is now. It was
> introduced to keep network traffic within sensible bounds.
>

[[email protected]]

for a UK cheque deposited into an HSBC UK account the process is:
Day 1: go to bank and pay cheque in before about 3-3.30
Day 2: Cheque will show as uncleared funds. Wait
Day 3: Wait
First thing on Day 4: eg early hours, funds available to withdraw

Problem: if the other bank decides not to pay the cheque the first time
your bank will hear anything about it is Day 4 - in effect you can
*never* be certain that a cheque is paid if its presented through
clearing.

If it is important to know whether a cheque is paid you should ask for
'special presentation', you dont get the funds any quicker but when the
other bank say "the cheque is paid" there is no way that they can go
back on that (it does, however cost around £12). Much better to have a
bankers draft, BACS or CHAPS payment if you need to be certain that the
payment is definately cleared.

Then for international cheques there are 3 possibilities, either HSBC
will send the cheque to the foreign bank directly and wait for them to
send the funds (known as Collection) or (increasingly) use a foreign
HSBC's access to a local clearing system to speed things up, or
depending on the value of the cheque, where it is drawn, how long you
have been a customer, how you've run your account....and so on, they
will 'Negociate' it, which means you get the funds immediately on the
proviso that if its not paid the bank takes the money back. its
increasingly unusual that the cashier will be able to tell you whats
going to happen, the cheques are now sent to the international cheque
clearing dept, who decide what to do, and write to you to explain.

Hope this helps

Ian

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Chris Reed wrote:
> > Different UK banks deal with this in different ways, so non-clearing
> > banks (e.g. Abbey or other former building societies) might make you
> > wait until clearance, but clearing banks may not - Barclays, for
> > example, credits the deposit (notionally) the following working day.
> >
> Thanks for the update. I dislike the delay but am even less happy with
> the claw back approach, so I'll avoid Barclay's.
>
> Any idea what HSBC does?
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. |
> org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[noel56z]

I would also add that one shouldn't accept even a cashier's or bank
check from someone you don't know or who can be verified. There have
been many reports of persons using phony "certified" checks to puchase
expensive cars and boats; and when these checks are out into the system
it may take several weeks for the bank they're drawn to to declare them
false.


Noel Anderson
Canaan, CT

[Greg Arnold]

Ask the buyer to do a wire transfer.


noel56z wrote:
> I would also add that one shouldn't accept even a cashier's or bank
> check from someone you don't know or who can be verified. There have
> been many reports of persons using phony "certified" checks to puchase
> expensive cars and boats; and when these checks are out into the system
> it may take several weeks for the bank they're drawn to to declare them
> false.
>
>
> Noel Anderson
> Canaan, CT
>

[Martin Gregorie]

wrote:

> Hope this helps
>
It did . Very useful, thanks.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[Martin Gregorie]

Chris Reed wrote:
> CHAPS is same day, and guaranteed under Chaps rules the moment it's
> acknowledged by the receiving bank.
>
> Unfortunately the equivalent (SWIFT) for international purchases is not
> same day (varies with receiving bank) and costs a lot more.
>
Its a fundamental difference:

CHAPS rules effectively mean the message *IS* the money, which is why
once the message is ACKed the transfer is irrevocable, guaranteed and
has been run through money laundering checks etc. before it is received
at the destination bank's gateway.

A S.W.I.F.T. message is only a message about money and contains no
guarantee until the actual transfer has taken place as the result of
(usually) a bulk settlement via a correspondent bank.

As to costs, if you've ever seen S.W.I.F.T.'s palatial headquarters
outside Brussels that would be no mystery. Even the member banks yelled
when it was built, but S.W.I.F.T. is the only game in town.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot