Meaning of sign at end of runway at LAX

[[email protected]]

In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the end of the
runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water. Why is this
sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
An interested passenger

[Jim Macklin]

Just a guess, a local noise abatement rule.



> wrote in message
ups.com...
| In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the
end of the
| runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water.
Why is this
| sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
| An interested passenger
|

[Ron Garret]

In article om>,
" > wrote:

> In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the end of the
> runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water. Why is this
> sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?

Apparently not.

rg

[Jim Macklin]

Google for "LAX noise abatement" returned this
http://www.lawa.org/airops/pdf/Section_5-Noise_Abatement.pdf

c. Unless specifically instructed otherwise by ATC, pilots
of all aircraft

departing toward the west shall, in accordance with
Subsection 4,

maintain runway heading until past the shoreline before

commencing any turns.



Good guess




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


"Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message news:8jhpf.29494$QW2.4566@dukeread08...
| Just a guess, a local noise abatement rule.
|
|
|
| > wrote in message
|
ups.com...
|| In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the
| end of the
|| runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water.
| Why is this
|| sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
|| An interested passenger
||
|
|

[John Gaquin]

> wrote in message

> In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the end of the
> runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water. Why is this
> sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?

Probably, but it is just a reminder about procedure. You're not supposed to
take off with flaps up, or with slush on the wings, either, but there are
reminders about those things too.

[Nasir]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> > wrote in message
>
>> In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the end of the
>> runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water. Why is this
>> sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
>
> Probably, but it is just a reminder about procedure. You're not supposed
> to take off with flaps up, or with slush on the wings, either, but there
> are reminders about those things too.

You are not supposed to take off with flaps up? Thats news to me.

[BTIZ]

a sweet reminder...

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the end of the
> runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water. Why is this
> sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
> An interested passenger
>

[John Gaquin]

"Nasir" > wrote in message news:8Yhpf.42998
>
> You are not supposed to take off with flaps up? Thats news to me.

Sorry, I left the statement incomplete. I presumed understanding of the
conversation in context on the part of readers. My mistake, apparently. To
be totally accurate, politically correct, and free of liability, I suppose
my statement should have read "You're not supposed to take off with flaps
up in most large turbojet or turboprop powered transport aircraft, or in
many transport or non-transport aircraft of any power type, or in any other
size or type of aircraft where trailing edge flaps are installed and where a
prohibition against such operating configuration is contained in the POH,
Operating Certificate, or other applicable documentation." Does that help
to clarify things?

[Jim Macklin]

A local city passed noise ordinance, NOT a FAR. The sign is
local, but similar signs all over California and other areas
with busybody councils.
It is a reminder that they will arrest and fine for making
too much noise in their opinion.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:rUipf.841$_L5.432@fed1read06...
|a sweet reminder...
|
| > wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| > In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the
end of the
| > runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the
water. Why is this
| > sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
| > An interested passenger
| >
|
|

[Guy Elden Jr]

There's another reason... reassuring passengers every time they pass by
it that pilots are going to obey the noise abatement rules. I've had
pax point out the signs at my local airport and after telling them what
it's for they usually nod approvingly.

--
Guy

wrote:
> In the summer taking off from LAX for JFK a sign at the end of the
> runway or thereabouts read no turns until over the water. Why is this
> sign necessary for pilots? Don't they know that already?
> An interested passenger

[Darkwing]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nasir" > wrote in message news:8Yhpf.42998
>>
>> You are not supposed to take off with flaps up? Thats news to me.
>
> Sorry, I left the statement incomplete. I presumed understanding of the
> conversation in context on the part of readers. My mistake, apparently.
> To be totally accurate, politically correct, and free of liability, I
> suppose my statement should have read "You're not supposed to take off
> with flaps up in most large turbojet or turboprop powered transport
> aircraft, or in many transport or non-transport aircraft of any power
> type, or in any other size or type of aircraft where trailing edge flaps
> are installed and where a prohibition against such operating configuration
> is contained in the POH, Operating Certificate, or other applicable
> documentation." Does that help to clarify things?
>

Don't typically find a lot of need for flaps on the ol' 172 on TO.

----------------------------------------------
DW

[Darkwing]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:C9ppf.29535$QW2.18069@dukeread08...
>A local city passed noise ordinance, NOT a FAR. The sign is
> local, but similar signs all over California and other areas
> with busybody councils.
> It is a reminder that they will arrest and fine for making
> too much noise in their opinion.
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>
>


Kind of like no engine breaking signs for semi's, whiney neighbors.

Let this serve as a reminder to not build off the end of a runway then
complain the airport is to loud.

----------------------------------------
DW

[John Gaquin]

"Darkwing" <theducksmailATyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>
> Don't typically find a lot of need for flaps on the ol' 172 on TO.

Very true, but you also don't find many of "the ol' 172s" departing LAX for
JFK, either. The context of the OP was clearly a transport aircraft, and
that's the context I kept in my response. I apologize to any light plane
pilots who may have felt demeaned or left out by the construction of my
reply. In future, I suggest you check context, and don't read anything not
pertaining to light aircraft, thus avoiding these horrible feelings.
Sheesh.

[Jim Macklin]

Noise abatement procedures can kill people, since they
involve power and flap settings mandated by city councils
and they often have microphones placed to monitor noise on
the ground. Pilots are threatened with jail and fines, and
some pilots, knowing where the mics were located would
reduce power while over the microphones.

The Air Florida crash at Washington, DC was caused by a
combination of ice on the wings and more importantly in the
engine probes that are used to set power. The Washington
National airport had noise abatement procedures that
required less than full power and the pilot, according to
the NTSB could have saved the airplane with full power. The
feeling was that the pilot did not firewall the power levers
because the gauges said he was at power. Did the pilot
worry about a silly noise rule or was he worried about
exceeding an EPR, nobody knows for sure. Of course, the
pilot had an accurate RPM and EGT, which seems to have been
ignored.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| > There's another reason... reassuring passengers every
time they pass by
| > it that pilots are going to obey the noise abatement
rules. I've had
| > pax point out the signs at my local airport and after
telling them what
| > it's for they usually nod approvingly.
|
| Nod approvingly for the fact that it is a P.C. piece of
nonsense, or that
| you and others are obeying noise abatement?
| --
| Jim in NC
|

[Morgans]

"John Gaquin" > wrote

> In future, I suggest you check context, and don't read anything not
> pertaining to light aircraft, thus avoiding these horrible feelings.
> Sheesh.

Your first reply was sorta humorous. This one?

Reacting a bit over the top, aren't you? Sheesh.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There's another reason... reassuring passengers every time they pass by
> it that pilots are going to obey the noise abatement rules. I've had
> pax point out the signs at my local airport and after telling them what
> it's for they usually nod approvingly.

Nod approvingly for the fact that it is a P.C. piece of nonsense, or that
you and others are obeying noise abatement?
--
Jim in NC

[John Gaquin]

"Morgans" > wrote in message news:2Yspf.13450
>
> Reacting a bit over the top, aren't you? Sheesh.

I don't think so. How could you read the OP and miss the context?

[Nasir]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message news:2Yspf.13450
>>
>> Reacting a bit over the top, aren't you? Sheesh.
>
> I don't think so. How could you read the OP and miss the context?

I dont know about LAX or JFK, but GA aircraft depart and arrive at AUS, SAT
(class C), IAH and DFW (class B) airports all the time. I know what you were
talking about though and I was just messing with you.

[Jon Woellhaf]

Got a chuckle out of me.

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message news:2Yspf.13450
>>
>> Reacting a bit over the top, aren't you? Sheesh.
>
> I don't think so. How could you read the OP and miss the context?
>

[John Gaquin]

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message

> Got a chuckle out of me.

Hi, Jon. Hope all is well and you have a great Christmas.

[Guy Elden Jr]

Morgans wrote:
> "Guy Elden Jr" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > There's another reason... reassuring passengers every time they pass by
> > it that pilots are going to obey the noise abatement rules. I've had
> > pax point out the signs at my local airport and after telling them what
> > it's for they usually nod approvingly.
>
> Nod approvingly for the fact that it is a P.C. piece of nonsense, or that
> you and others are obeying noise abatement?

Well, my point being they see the sign, they think life is good because
pilots are going to obey the noise abatement, thus improving their
quality of life that tad bit more. Now, whether or not the pilot
actually obeys the noise abatement, that's another question. I think
the power of suggestion that the sign is even there is more than enough
to calm some peoples' irrational fears over noisy airplanes. (i.e.,
they're going to perceive planes as being quieter because they think
all pilots are now obeying the noise abatement rules, even if the rules
have no effect on actual noise levels).

--
Guy

[[email protected]]

Darkwing <theducksmailATyahoo.com> wrote:

> Don't typically find a lot of need for flaps on the ol' 172 on TO.

Especially in "high altitude" operations. REF: C172N, 1978 POH,
page 4-11. Where it says to lean when operating in high altitudes
above 3000 MSL. Then in the flap operations paragraph it says that
it is OK to use 10 degrees of flaps for takeoff, but not during high
altitude operations, because the aircraft "may" not be able to
climb. Remember, the POH is written by lawyers, for lawyers, and
specifically states that one of the performance conditions is "at
maximum gross weight". So, since I was taught to always use 10
degrees of flaps for takeoff in the C172... I loaded her up to max
gross weight and tested this. They are right! I will NEVER use any
flaps for takeoff in a C172 (160hp or less) when above 3000' MSL or
density altitude.

Remember, that I (now) regularily operate 145hp, 150hp and 160hp
C172s for training from Leadville, CO (LXV, 9927 MSL, 6400' length)
and Glenwood Springs, CO (GWS, 5916 MSL, 3300' length). I am well
pre-disposed to fly by the POH!

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction/mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 235 Young Eagles!