MU 2 Crash just after TO

[Gary]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plane_051
221/20051221?hub=TopStories



A pilot and co-pilot died instantly when their small plane crashed in
British Columbia Tuesday night. The cargo plane crashed at about 6:30 p.m.,
less than a minute after taking off from Terrace, B.C., a northern community
located about 145 kilometres from Prince Rupert.

Staff at the Terrace Airport noticed a fireball in the woods beyond the
airfield almost immediately after the plane took off. Airport officials said
the runway was in good shape, but that there was freezing rain at the time
of accident.

Investigators from the Transportation Safety Board will determine whether
the Navair plane had been properly de-iced.

"We know that Navair pilots are tasked with own de-icing," Bill Yearwood, an
investigator with the Transportation Safety Board told CTV Vancouver. "They
do not contract out their de-icing, so they would not line up with other
aircraft for de-icing. They would do it themselves."

Ice accumulation can actually change the shape of the wings of a plane, and
de-icing is a mandatory safety precaution. But keeping a record of the
process is not. Investigators will have to rely on witnesses do determine
whether the procedure was performed before the plane took-off.

The Navair charter courier aircraft -- a twin-engine, MU2 Mitsubishi
plane -- was heading to Vancouver at the time of the crash.

The same type of aircraft is currently being investigated by the U.S.
aviation industry. In the past 20 months there have been 12 accidents
involving MU2 planes, and 14 people have died.



I remember someone bringing up the issue of the MU2's and the recent crashes
that have occured regarding the Mitsubishi aircraft and Mike Rappaport
defending the safety record of the MU2.

In this case I feel that this crash may have more to do with the weather and
possibly the crews haste to get into the air.



Gary

[Gary]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plane_051
221/20051221?hub=TopStories


for some reason the link didn't work so I'll try again

[Jose]

> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plane_051
> 221/20051221?hub=TopStories
>
>
> for some reason the link didn't work so I'll try again

The link got split by a carriage return. You need to patch it back
together manually, rather than click on it.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Garner Miller]

In article <TaBqf.169597$Gd6.80548@pd7tw3no>, Gary
> wrote:

> ...there was freezing rain at the time of accident...
>
> "We know that Navair pilots are tasked with own de-icing," Bill
> Yearwood, an investigator with [the TSB]... they would not line up with
> other aircraft for de-icing. They would do it themselves."
>
> In this case I feel that this crash may have more to do with the weather and
> possibly the crews haste to get into the air.

I don't read it that way. I read it that the crew deiced themselves
properly, but it took some time to get back in the plane, get it
started up, run the checklists, and get to the runway -- more time than
the deicing fluid was effective.

I'm not sure what the intensity of the freezing rain was in the above
accident. At my company, we're prohibited from taking off with
freezing rain other than "light." And with even light FZRA, Type I
fluid (the heated stuff) only gets us 2-5 minutes of protection. And
if they even had Type IV (cold gel) available, that might only provide
5-10 minutes of protection, depending on the air temperature and the
mix ratio.

I'd bet the fluid became ineffective on the way to the runway, and with
the high wing, they couldn't see it.

Sad.

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

[Gary]

Ahhhh so that is what is happening!! Thanks!


"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
> >
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plane_051
> > 221/20051221?hub=TopStories
> >
> >
> > for some reason the link didn't work so I'll try again
>
> The link got split by a carriage return. You need to patch it back
> together manually, rather than click on it.
>
> Jose
> --
> You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Gary]

I agree!


"Garner Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article <TaBqf.169597$Gd6.80548@pd7tw3no>, Gary
> > wrote:
>
> > ...there was freezing rain at the time of accident...
> >
> > "We know that Navair pilots are tasked with own de-icing," Bill
> > Yearwood, an investigator with [the TSB]... they would not line up with
> > other aircraft for de-icing. They would do it themselves."
> >
> > In this case I feel that this crash may have more to do with the weather
and
> > possibly the crews haste to get into the air.
>
> I don't read it that way. I read it that the crew deiced themselves
> properly, but it took some time to get back in the plane, get it
> started up, run the checklists, and get to the runway -- more time than
> the deicing fluid was effective.
>
> I'm not sure what the intensity of the freezing rain was in the above
> accident. At my company, we're prohibited from taking off with
> freezing rain other than "light." And with even light FZRA, Type I
> fluid (the heated stuff) only gets us 2-5 minutes of protection. And
> if they even had Type IV (cold gel) available, that might only provide
> 5-10 minutes of protection, depending on the air temperature and the
> mix ratio.
>
> I'd bet the fluid became ineffective on the way to the runway, and with
> the high wing, they couldn't see it.
>
> Sad.
>
> --
> Garner R. Miller
> ATP/CFII/MEI
> Clifton Park, NY =USA=
> http://www.garnermiller.com/

[Mike Rapoport]

I don't see where it says that the airplane was deiced at all. All it says
is that the company does not use the airports deicing service.

Mike
MU-2


"Garner Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article <TaBqf.169597$Gd6.80548@pd7tw3no>, Gary
> > wrote:
>
>> ...there was freezing rain at the time of accident...
>>
>> "We know that Navair pilots are tasked with own de-icing," Bill
>> Yearwood, an investigator with [the TSB]... they would not line up with
>> other aircraft for de-icing. They would do it themselves."
>>
>> In this case I feel that this crash may have more to do with the weather
>> and
>> possibly the crews haste to get into the air.
>
> I don't read it that way. I read it that the crew deiced themselves
> properly, but it took some time to get back in the plane, get it
> started up, run the checklists, and get to the runway -- more time than
> the deicing fluid was effective.
>
> I'm not sure what the intensity of the freezing rain was in the above
> accident. At my company, we're prohibited from taking off with
> freezing rain other than "light." And with even light FZRA, Type I
> fluid (the heated stuff) only gets us 2-5 minutes of protection. And
> if they even had Type IV (cold gel) available, that might only provide
> 5-10 minutes of protection, depending on the air temperature and the
> mix ratio.
>
> I'd bet the fluid became ineffective on the way to the runway, and with
> the high wing, they couldn't see it.
>
> Sad.
>
> --
> Garner R. Miller
> ATP/CFII/MEI
> Clifton Park, NY =USA=
> http://www.garnermiller.com/

[Jim Macklin]

Also, the MU2 uses spoilers for roll control, they could
have been frozen down in the flush position by the rain.
Freezing rain is the worst and as was said, taking off with
an unknown amount of ice on all surfaces, unbalanced
controls, frozen tabs, ice covered static ports is just
plain foolish. But I guess the crew had a schedule to keep.
Freezing rain is bad enough in flight even with a full
certified de-icing system, but on the ground the rain will
cover the whole airframe and if the anti-ice systems do
work, they will only remove ice from leading edges and
engine inlets and the props. There would remain a ridge of
ice just behind the leading edges, acting as a spoiler.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"Garner Miller" > wrote in message
...
| In article <TaBqf.169597$Gd6.80548@pd7tw3no>, Gary
| > wrote:
|
| > ...there was freezing rain at the time of accident...
| >
| > "We know that Navair pilots are tasked with own
de-icing," Bill
| > Yearwood, an investigator with [the TSB]... they would
not line up with
| > other aircraft for de-icing. They would do it
themselves."
| >
| > In this case I feel that this crash may have more to do
with the weather and
| > possibly the crews haste to get into the air.
|
| I don't read it that way. I read it that the crew deiced
themselves
| properly, but it took some time to get back in the plane,
get it
| started up, run the checklists, and get to the runway --
more time than
| the deicing fluid was effective.
|
| I'm not sure what the intensity of the freezing rain was
in the above
| accident. At my company, we're prohibited from taking off
with
| freezing rain other than "light." And with even light
FZRA, Type I
| fluid (the heated stuff) only gets us 2-5 minutes of
protection. And
| if they even had Type IV (cold gel) available, that might
only provide
| 5-10 minutes of protection, depending on the air
temperature and the
| mix ratio.
|
| I'd bet the fluid became ineffective on the way to the
runway, and with
| the high wing, they couldn't see it.
|
| Sad.
|
| --
| Garner R. Miller
| ATP/CFII/MEI
| Clifton Park, NY =USA=
| http://www.garnermiller.com/

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:39:27 GMT, "Gary" > wrote:

>
>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plane_051
>221/20051221?hub=TopStories
>
>
>for some reason the link didn't work so I'll try again

Copy the link, and go to tinyurl.com. It will generate a tinyURL that
will not line-wrap.

http://tinyurl.com/c8333

[Garner Miller]

In article >, Nathan Young
> wrote:

> Copy the link, and go to tinyurl.com. It will generate a tinyURL that
> will not line-wrap.

Or, just enclose the link in angle brackets, and many newsreaders will
ignore the line break and treat it as a single link:

<http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plan
e_051221/20051221?hub=TopStories>

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Garner Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Nathan Young
> > wrote:
>
>> Copy the link, and go to tinyurl.com. It will generate a tinyURL that
>> will not line-wrap.
>
> Or, just enclose the link in angle brackets, and many newsreaders will
> ignore the line break and treat it as a single link:
>
> <http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plan
> e_051221/20051221?hub=TopStories>
>
> --
> Garner R. Miller
> ATP/CFII/MEI
> Clifton Park, NY =USA=
> http://www.garnermiller.com/


Long links don't usually break on my Outlook Express but that one did. I
have now posted it with out the break. Let's see what happens.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plane_051221/20051221?hub=TopStories

[Matt Whiting]

Garner Miller wrote:
> In article >, Nathan Young
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Copy the link, and go to tinyurl.com. It will generate a tinyURL that
>>will not line-wrap.
>
>
> Or, just enclose the link in angle brackets, and many newsreaders will
> ignore the line break and treat it as a single link:
>
> <http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051221/cargo_plan
> e_051221/20051221?hub=TopStories>
>

My news reader still breaks the url. I'm using Netscape 7.2 which is
Mozilla based.


Matt

[Peter Duniho]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> My news reader still breaks the url. I'm using Netscape 7.2 which is
> Mozilla based.

It's the poster's newsreader that breaks the URL, not the subsequent
readers'. Once the line break has been inserted, I'm not aware of a
newsreader that will reassemble the URL, with or without angle brackets.

One might exist, but I haven't heard of it.

Pete

[Morgans]

"Garner Miller" > wrote

> Or, just enclose the link in angle brackets, and many newsreaders will
> ignore the line break and treat it as a single link:

My trick (OE) is to hit reply, then you can edit out the break and click on
it, then cancel the reply.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote

> But I guess the crew had a schedule to keep.

Being dead put them seriously behind schedule. Note, no grins here.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

I have a friend who formerly flew for a law firm, to take
accident investigators to crash scenes ASAP. They almost
always arrived with in a few hours in good VFR weather.
Pilots are often high pressure busy people who just don't
want to wait on the ground somewhere. They also seem to
want to fly a straight line.

It is a good idea to fly stages and not feel pressured to
keep a schedule or even a set destination. Besides you meet
the nicest people at those out of the way airports off the
beaten path.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
|
| > But I guess the crew had a schedule to keep.
|
| Being dead put them seriously behind schedule. Note, no
grins here.
| --
| Jim in NC