ME Insurance

[Scott Draper]

Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
"no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
wondering if this is universally true.

[Mark Manes]

Scott,
I got coverage on a 310 with no rating but was back in 2001. But it cost
$6500 to insure it for $120k. I had the Commercial ME rating and close to
200 the next year and it dropped to $3500. It was abt the same last year
with new engines ($170k Hull) and 600 hrs. Keep looking and good luck.

Mark Manes
N28409



"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
> Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
> based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
> "no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
> wondering if this is universally true.

[Scott Draper]

Thanks, Mark. Who was your insurance with?

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 17:31:30 -0600, "Mark Manes" >
wrote:

>Scott,
>I got coverage on a 310 with no rating but was back in 2001. But it cost
>$6500 to insure it for $120k. I had the Commercial ME rating and close to
>200 the next year and it dropped to $3500. It was abt the same last year
>with new engines ($170k Hull) and 600 hrs. Keep looking and good luck.
>
>Mark Manes
>N28409
>
>
>
>"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
>> Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
>> based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
>> "no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
>> wondering if this is universally true.
>

[BTIZ]

are you "no ME rating" or no rating at all..
yes some people do go straight to Private Multi as their first aircraft..

Instrument and Commercial ratings with at least 500 or 1000hrs total time
will reduce the premium.

What type aircraft? how many seats? anything over 4 seats increases the
pilot limitations and/or insurance premiums significantly.

Type aircraft based on "accident rate" also makes a factor. Piper Seminole
vs Beech Baron, etc.

good luck
BT

"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
> Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
> based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
> "no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
> wondering if this is universally true.

[Robert M. Gary]

Parts availability makes a difference as well. My insurance broker was
telling me there is some very inexpensive Piper twin out there that is
very old and not many parts. Any accident ends up being a total so the
rates are very high.

-Robert

[Jim Burns]

That would probably be the Aztec A or B models. Limited numbers, expensive
prop AD's, and many dis-similar parts to the much more numerous later
models. Unless the props have been replaced with non-AD hubs/props and some
interior, paint, and avionics upgrades have been performed, they are
basically worth the value of the engines. By the time you spend that much
on a twin that old, you'll be lucky if you can find an insurance agency
willing to insure the hull for what you've put into it. I know of a local B
model that was offered for sale @ $60k over a year ago... last ad I saw had
it listed for less than $30k. A sharp scrapyard can get a lot more out of it
in parts.

Our lowest time partner is a PPL-IA-SEL-MEL. He had about 200 hours when he
did his MEL. First years insurance on our Aztec with $88k hull cost us
$4600 IIRC. Getting the rating only takes a weekend. If I had any
insurance questions, it wouldn't be about cost or if I could get insurance
before I received the rating, it would be "What twins can I get insurance in
as a pilot with these ratings and with these times?" I'm sure we wouldn't
have gotten any company to take us if we had first bought a C421 or an
Aerostar with only 10-15 hours MEL time. (if they did, they would have
forced us to live with a MEI with lots of hours in make/model before ever
turning us loose)

Jim

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Parts availability makes a difference as well. My insurance broker was
> telling me there is some very inexpensive Piper twin out there that is
> very old and not many parts. Any accident ends up being a total so the
> rates are very high.
>
> -Robert
>

[Scott Draper]

<<are you "no ME rating" or no rating at all..>>

Actually, I'm the instructor. My student's father bought him a 182 to
do his instrument rating in, whereupon he sold the airplane for a
profit and the instrument rating was free.

Since his father was willing to buy a twin, I suggested doing his ME
Commercial before his SE. However, his insurance agency said they
won't insure him until he has his ME, so we're considering doing a
private ME add-on, VFR only, in our flight school's Seneca, and then
go for his Commercial ME in his own airplane.

However, it makes far more sense to do everything in his own airplane,
if he can get insured.

[BTIZ]

Based on what you described.. he should be able to do his Pvt ME add-on in
his own plane (all dual received).. get the insurance and press for the
Commercial ME then Commercial SE.

Or did you mean that the insurance company would not insure him until he had
Comm and ME.
Granted, the kicker for the Commercial is the required Long Solo cross
country.. everything else can be dual received, unless he is short on total
time requirements.

Our local flight school has Seneca II, but you need Comm ME and Instrument
to rent them solo, but with a qualified MEI, no problems.. it's all dual
until the check ride.
Then you are limited to one pax until x number of hours in type and total ME
hours, before you can
"fill the seats".

BT

"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
> <<are you "no ME rating" or no rating at all..>>
>
> Actually, I'm the instructor. My student's father bought him a 182 to
> do his instrument rating in, whereupon he sold the airplane for a
> profit and the instrument rating was free.
>
> Since his father was willing to buy a twin, I suggested doing his ME
> Commercial before his SE. However, his insurance agency said they
> won't insure him until he has his ME, so we're considering doing a
> private ME add-on, VFR only, in our flight school's Seneca, and then
> go for his Commercial ME in his own airplane.
>
> However, it makes far more sense to do everything in his own airplane,
> if he can get insured.
>
>

[Scott Draper]

<<Based on what you described.. he should be able to do his Pvt ME
add-on in his own plane (all dual received).. get the insurance and
press for the Commercial ME then Commercial SE.>>

The insurance company will not insure him while we are pursuing the
Private add-on, even if it's all dual (so he tells me). Granted, some
people take the risk, but I can't recommend that route.

<<Granted, the kicker for the Commercial is the required Long Solo
cross country.. everything else can be dual received, unless he is
short on total time requirements.>>

Yep, that's wasted time, IMO, the "performing the duties of
pilot-in-command". That's why I normally discourage the ME as the
first rating, but when you own your own airplane, the ME hours come a
lot cheaper.


Thank you.

[Kyler Laird]

Scott Draper > writes:

>Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
>based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
>"no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
>wondering if this is universally true.

I bought our Aztec before I even had my Private. My partner had his
MEL though. We were both on the policy as soon as I got my ASEL.

I was just required to spend 25(?) hours dual and then 15 hours solo
in the plane before I was insured for carrying passengers.

Call Andy Facer at Facer Insurance. (It's storming here and I'm
offline so I can't look up the info.)

--kyler

[Scott Draper]

You motivated me to call AOPA. (I had their number handy and didn't
have Facer's.) The lady I talked to said they all use the same
underwriters, so if an agent has accurate information, they should all
have the same capability about attaining insurance.

She said

1) No one would insure my student in a Twin Comanche until he had at
least 500 hours, rating or no rating, and

2) She could put him into a Seneca or Cessna 310 with as little as
200 hours, without a rating.

So if what she said is accurate, the local insurance guy that my
student is using has provided inaccurate information. My student has
been trying to buy a Twin Comanche, and yet he may not be insurable in
that aircraft. He's also said that he couldn't get insurance without
the rating and that he couldn't get it regardless in something with
lots of horsepower like a 310.

Thank you!



On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:17:03 GMT, Kyler Laird >
wrote:

>Scott Draper > writes:
>
>>Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
>>based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
>>"no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
>>wondering if this is universally true.
>
>I bought our Aztec before I even had my Private. My partner had his
>MEL though. We were both on the policy as soon as I got my ASEL.
>
>I was just required to spend 25(?) hours dual and then 15 hours solo
>in the plane before I was insured for carrying passengers.
>
>Call Andy Facer at Facer Insurance. (It's storming here and I'm
>offline so I can't look up the info.)
>
>--kyler

[Jim Burns]

It may or may not be a horsepower issue, but a combination of factors
involved with certain models. Each model has characteristics that make up
it's accident survivability profile and an accident history each it's own.
Whether high stall speeds, high or low Vmc or Vyse speeds, thin fast wings,
low stall speeds, fat high lift wings, rudder size, cabin size, cabin
structure, engine size, turbochargeing, prop rotation, pressurization,
complex fuel systems, or center of gravity issues, every twin is different.

When we were shopping for insurance for our Aztec we were told that
insurance companies look favorably on Aztecs because they have "enough"
horsepower to provide adequate single engine performance, but not "too much"
power that single engine control problems overwhelm the pilot. Our agent
told us that the Aztec premium would be less than a Apache of equal hull
value given our times and ratings. He also went through the list of
companies willing to insure "transition" pilots (moving from HP Singles to
Twins) and noted which company would insure which models with what pilot
experience levels and for what size pile of cash.

YMMV, but it sounds like you're on the right track and that the agent at the
AOPA insurance agency knows what he's talking about.

Good luck,

Jim

[Aaron Coolidge]

Scott Draper > wrote:
: You motivated me to call AOPA. (I had their number handy and didn't
: have Facer's.) The lady I talked to said they all use the same
: underwriters, so if an agent has accurate information, they should all
: have the same capability about attaining insurance.

: She said

: 1) No one would insure my student in a Twin Comanche until he had at
: least 500 hours, rating or no rating, and

Two years ago, when I was looking at Twin Comanches I called a few companies
including AOPA. The only company that was willing to insure me (0 Multi time)
was Avemco. They wanted $8000/year. There were no ridiculous limits on the
policy: I needed to get a multi rating and could not carry pax until I had
25 hours solo. I could go solo with the appropriate endorsements.

It all depends on how much you are willing to pay.

--
Aaron

[Scott Draper]

<<could not carry pax until I had 25 hours solo. I could go solo with
the appropriate endorsements.>>

How much total time did you have?

[Scott Draper]

<<insurance companies look favorably on Aztecs because they have
"enough" horsepower to provide adequate single engine performance, but
not "too much" power that single engine control problems overwhelm the
pilot. >>

Interesting insight, thank you. I may suggest to my student that he
look at an Aztec.

[Aaron Coolidge]

Scott Draper > wrote:
: <<could not carry pax until I had 25 hours solo. I could go solo with
: the appropriate endorsements.>>

: How much total time did you have?

I think I had 350 or 400 hours total at that time. I may have misread your
initial statement into "he needs 300+ hours IN TYPE before they would insure
him" instead of "he needs 300+ TOTAL HOURS before they would insure him".
If the second statement is true, perhaps he should consider a single for a
couple hundred hours.
--
Aaron C.

[Scott Draper]

<<he needs 300+ TOTAL HOURS before they would insure him.
If the second statement is true, perhaps he should consider a single
for a couple hundred hours.>>

The insurance lady said he needed 500 hours TOTAL in any airplane
before they would insure him at all in the Comanche. Only 200 for
something like a Seneca or a 310.

The reason we're pushing for the twin is that the boy is airline bound
and doing this initial training in the twin will give him a good leg
up when he starts having the total time needed for a commuter.

If we're lucky, then if he sells the airplane for what he paid or
better, the training and time building will be very cheap.

[Dave]

Anybody know why the high requirement for the twin Comanche? -
compared to the 310?

Dave



On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:27:16 -0600, Scott Draper
> wrote:

><<he needs 300+ TOTAL HOURS before they would insure him.
>If the second statement is true, perhaps he should consider a single
>for a couple hundred hours.>>
>
>The insurance lady said he needed 500 hours TOTAL in any airplane
>before they would insure him at all in the Comanche. Only 200 for
>something like a Seneca or a 310.
>
>The reason we're pushing for the twin is that the boy is airline bound
>and doing this initial training in the twin will give him a good leg
>up when he starts having the total time needed for a commuter.
>
>If we're lucky, then if he sells the airplane for what he paid or
>better, the training and time building will be very cheap.
>

[Clay]

The gear on a C-310 is taller than the twin Comanche and further to
fall which may cause more damage because you hit the ground harder.
Thus higher the cost of the insurance. LOL
It could have something to do with the accident statistics.

[Jim Carter]

Having flown both a standard Twin-Comanche and the 310K model I'd expect
the difference be due to the accident statistics as others have
suggested. Personally I liked the Twin-Comanche better - it was more
challenging to stay on top of and man could it come down when you needed
it to. I think it would be difficult to fly a Hi-Penetration approach in
the 310, but the TC did it just fine.

I'd expect the insurance rates for the Twin-Comanche-CR to be lower than
the original model and lower than the 310 -- maybe along the lines of
the early Seneca -- but that's just my speculation.




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave ]
> Posted At: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:48 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: ME Insurance
> Subject: Re: ME Insurance
>
> Anybody know why the high requirement for the twin Comanche? -
> compared to the 310?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:27:16 -0600, Scott Draper
> > wrote:
>
> ><<he needs 300+ TOTAL HOURS before they would insure him.
> >If the second statement is true, perhaps he should consider a single
> >for a couple hundred hours.>>
> >
> >The insurance lady said he needed 500 hours TOTAL in any airplane
> >before they would insure him at all in the Comanche. Only 200 for
> >something like a Seneca or a 310.
> >
> >The reason we're pushing for the twin is that the boy is airline
bound
> >and doing this initial training in the twin will give him a good leg
> >up when he starts having the total time needed for a commuter.
> >
> >If we're lucky, then if he sells the airplane for what he paid or
> >better, the training and time building will be very cheap.
> >

[Michele Howard]

As an Aviation Insurance Underwriter I can tell you that some aviaion
insurance agencies do not represent ALL of the available underwriting
companies. Most do, but not all.

I put zero-multi-engine time pilots in twins all the time. The transition
pilot is an readily insurable risk if you have the right aircraft. We put
transition pilots in Twin Comanches and Cessna 310s all the time. A large
part of my book of business is multi-engine transition pilots.


"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
> You motivated me to call AOPA. (I had their number handy and didn't
> have Facer's.) The lady I talked to said they all use the same
> underwriters, so if an agent has accurate information, they should all
> have the same capability about attaining insurance.
>
> She said
>
> 1) No one would insure my student in a Twin Comanche until he had at
> least 500 hours, rating or no rating, and
>
> 2) She could put him into a Seneca or Cessna 310 with as little as
> 200 hours, without a rating.
>
> So if what she said is accurate, the local insurance guy that my
> student is using has provided inaccurate information. My student has
> been trying to buy a Twin Comanche, and yet he may not be insurable in
> that aircraft. He's also said that he couldn't get insurance without
> the rating and that he couldn't get it regardless in something with
> lots of horsepower like a 310.
>
> Thank you!
>
>
>
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:17:03 GMT, Kyler Laird >
> wrote:
>
>>Scott Draper > writes:
>>
>>>Can a multi-engine student get insurance for his own ME airplane,
>>>based on his instructor's ME time? One insurance company is saying
>>>"no way"; they'll only insure him AFTER he get's his ME rating. I'm
>>>wondering if this is universally true.
>>
>>I bought our Aztec before I even had my Private. My partner had his
>>MEL though. We were both on the policy as soon as I got my ASEL.
>>
>>I was just required to spend 25(?) hours dual and then 15 hours solo
>>in the plane before I was insured for carrying passengers.
>>
>>Call Andy Facer at Facer Insurance. (It's storming here and I'm
>>offline so I can't look up the info.)
>>
>>--kyler
>

[Rob McDonald]

So what are the more insurable light twin choices for a ME transition
pilot?

Rob


"Michele Howard" > wrote in
:

> ...
> I put zero-multi-engine time pilots in twins all the time. The
> transition pilot is an readily insurable risk if you have the right
> aircraft...