Autopilot

[[email protected]]

Salutations All,

I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a question for
all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do commercial
aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?

I've been spending time learning IFR navigation in FS 2004, and while
up and about I'm constantly getting different instructions from the
controllers, things like "climb to FL200" or stuff like that. What I've
found, though, is that the easiest way to make these minor course and
altitude corrections is to just punch it into the autopilot, and let it
do the work. This is, of course, exceptionally boring - and thus my
question!

Anyways, any insights anyone can give would be most appreciated!
Thanks!

Bryan Porter
==

[Jack Allison]

Can't speak for commercial pilots since I'm not one (yet). However, I
don't use my AP. Of course, that's because it's broken right now...not
to mention the fact that as an instrument student, hand flying more than
letting George fly means I'll be able to keep the shiny side up and the
greasy side down when George goes on the fritz while I'm in solid IMC.
Oh, and it's only a single axis auto pilot so altitude is always up to me.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Brien K. Meehan]

I use mine for about 95% of each flight for all my commercial and
personal flying, excluding training and checkrides.

[Jose]

> how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?

Dunno about commercial pilots (I'm a PP, SEL) but I never use mine. I
don't feel like I'm flying if I don't have my own hand on the yoke, and
that's IFR or VFR.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Airlines use the AP for most of the flight because they save
fuel. But still most means that some is hand flown, usually
take-off to 500 or 1,000 feet and about half of the
approach.

When I had passengers, I used the autopilot in the King Airs
because it was smoother and wasn't being asked "where is the
coffee?" But I hand flew probably 20% at cruise and split
the approach phase so I knew how to operate the AP properly
and hand fly with the needles never more than 1 dot off.

In years past, use of the autopilots was rarely taught and
even less tested during practical tests. When I got the
type rating in the King Air 300, the single-pilot test did
not allow you to turn the AP ON at all. You could use the
FD which is close to operating the AP. In the light jets, a
type rating test has required that the pilot demonstrate
mastery of the autopilot and the pilot is expect to use it
during flight. Now, the recent practical test standards
[PTS] require that the pilot be able to use all the
equipment in the airplane and that includes the autopilot.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
| Salutations All,
|
| I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a
question for
| all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do
commercial
| aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?
|
| I've been spending time learning IFR navigation in FS
2004, and while
| up and about I'm constantly getting different instructions
from the
| controllers, things like "climb to FL200" or stuff like
that. What I've
| found, though, is that the easiest way to make these minor
course and
| altitude corrections is to just punch it into the
autopilot, and let it
| do the work. This is, of course, exceptionally boring -
and thus my
| question!
|
| Anyways, any insights anyone can give would be most
appreciated!
| Thanks!
|
| Bryan Porter
| ==
|

[Ramapriya]

wrote:
> Salutations All,
>
> I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a question for
> all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?


Bryan,

I guess the typical actions and sounds from the flight deck at the
beginning of a journey would be:


"You have flight controls?" "Yep"
"Takeoff power set"
After about 90% of the takeoff roll: "V1" (or "Go")
3 secs later: "Rotate"
5 secs later: "Gear up"
10 secs later: "Retract all flaps"

About a minute later, the Cap'n would hit the AutoPilot button and
that's it. The AP disengagement would come roughly 2 min before
touchdown, unless you're in an A320/330/340 where even touchdowns are
accomplished with a stewardess on the lap, as Cap'n Doug will fume but
admit :o)

Ramapriya

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> Salutations All,
>
> I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a question for
> all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?


If I'm in an aircraft with an autopilot, I use it constantly for the cruise
portion of the flight on cross countries. I always hand fly climbouts and
approaches.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Dan Foster]

In article . com>, > wrote:
> Salutations All,

Greetings and Salutations, Earthling. :-)

> I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a question for
> all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?

I'm neither IFR rated nor a CPL holder, but another good place to ask is
in rec.aviation.ifr.

> I've been spending time learning IFR navigation in FS 2004, and while
> up and about I'm constantly getting different instructions from the
> controllers, things like "climb to FL200" or stuff like that. What I've
> found, though, is that the easiest way to make these minor course and
> altitude corrections is to just punch it into the autopilot, and let it
> do the work. This is, of course, exceptionally boring - and thus my
> question!

The way you're using it sounds like it's being used as a crutch.

The AP is indeed a very nice tool, but not infallible.

Best to master the basics 'the long way', *then* use the AP as needed.

Why? This article sums it up nicely:

https://flighttraining.aopa.org/cfi_tools/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=5121

(Login not required to read, I think?)

As for your question on when the AP is used by CPL pilots... well, it
depends. Often, it will be used in high workload situations.

Best examples: within the terminal area of a major airport or when
encountering rough weather. In both cases, the use of the autopilot
allows them to spend greater attention on higher priority things.

(But as someone else with autopilot use here recently noted, if the
weather is really rough, the autopilot may disconnect due to deviation
past maximum limits.)

Some people like to use them when not required. That's ok; they know how
to do things 'by hand' if needed, and could do it right there and then
if required.

-Dan

[Tim923]

Dan Foster > wrote:
>The AP is indeed a very nice tool, but not infallible.

Sounds comparable to cruise control with driving.

I don't have an aviation background. Can autopilot do the takeoff and
landing?

[Ramapriya]

Tim923 wrote:
>
> I don't have an aviation background. Can autopilot do the takeoff and landing?


Of course. You can program any Airbus A320/330/340/380 to fly itself,
using its FMGS. All you need to do manually is taxi it to the edge of
the runway, and taxi it away again after completion of the landing
roll. The entire flight can be pilotless.

Don't ask me why such Airbuses aren't certified for pilotless flight;
union pressures, perhaps :o)

Ramapriya

[sfb]

Competing airline advertising themes would be "Our planes have pilots."

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
>
> Don't ask me why such Airbuses aren't certified for pilotless flight;
> union pressures, perhaps :o)
>
> Ramapriya
>

[.Blueskies.]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message oups.com...
> Tim923 wrote:
>>
>> I don't have an aviation background. Can autopilot do the takeoff and landing?
>
>
> Of course. You can program any Airbus A320/330/340/380 to fly itself,
> using its FMGS. All you need to do manually is taxi it to the edge of
> the runway, and taxi it away again after completion of the landing
> roll. The entire flight can be pilotless.
>
> Don't ask me why such Airbuses aren't certified for pilotless flight;
> union pressures, perhaps :o)
>
> Ramapriya
>

The 747 has been capable of this for years, since ~69 or so. The pilot does have to advance the throttles though...

[john smith]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a question for
> all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?

I am not Commercial rated but am Instrument rated PPL.
Best answer for light GA aircraft is that it depends on the flight.
If it is a long trip and/or heavy controls, i use the AP so my hand
doesn't cramp up ( using just the thumb and first two fingers on the
controls).
If flying single pilot in IMC, it is easier monitor the flight and study
approach charts, copy wx and clearances, etc with the AP engaged.
The AP will fly smoother in turbulence than by hand flying.
For just general cruising around, I don't use it at all.

[Bob Moore]

> I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a
> question for all the real pilots out there: In general, how much
> do commercial aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?

Bryan, you have used a term that may have confused many of those
who have responded to your question.

By "commercial aviation pilot", did you mean an airline pilot who
is actually an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP)or...a real Commercial
Pilot (CP) who usually flies smaller business aircraft? As you have
seen, you received a lot of BS answers from Private Pilots and even
Non-Pilots without a clue.

A Commercial Pilot (CP) certificate is simply a grade (level) of
pilot certificate and does not necessarily mean the the holder is
actually employed to fly an airplane. He may fly the same small
airplane types without an autopilot as a Private Pilot (PP).

Autopilot use by a Commercial Pilot (CP) really depends upon the
size and type of airplane that he is flying and the conditions under
which he is operating.

Now...if you really meant an airline pilot flying a jetliner, the
answer is much easier. They probably use the autopilot 95 percent of
the time. During my 25 years as an airline pilot, the autopilot
would be engaged at about 2,000' after takeoff and remain on until
2,000' above the airport prior to landing.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

[kontiki]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> If I'm in an aircraft with an autopilot, I use it constantly for the cruise
> portion of the flight on cross countries. I always hand fly climbouts and
> approaches.

I concurr with this philosophy and probably the majority of pilots do this.
My airplane does not have a coupled auto-pilot so I need to fly instrument
approaches by hand, which I don't mind because I don't do it multiple times
a day. If I did, then I would most definately want to have (and use) a
coupled auto pilot for the approaches as well. Of course I would occasionally
hand fly them just to break the monotony and maintain proficiency.

[Dan Foster]

In article >,
..Blueskies. > wrote:
>
> The 747 has been capable of this for years, since ~69 or so. The pilot
> does have to advance the throttles though...

With the 744, I don't believe VNAV kicks in until 400 ft AGL. Below
400', you've got LNAV/FD/autothrottles.

-Dan

[nooneimportant]

>
> "You have flight controls?" "Yep"
> "Takeoff power set"
> After about 90% of the takeoff roll: "V1" (or "Go")
> 3 secs later: "Rotate"
> 5 secs later: "Gear up"
> 10 secs later: "Retract all flaps"
>

SET THURST............. V1, Rotate, V2, posite rate, gear up, set speed
mode, set heading mode........... autopilot on (passing 500'). allow plane
to climb to "accelleration altidue" roughly 1200 agl, then transition from
initial climb speed of 190 to 250 on the autopilot, managing the transition
with vertical speed mode to keep the plane from diving for the airspeed
(changing airspeed setting changes climb rate, the CRJ does not have auto
throttles), when passing V2+20 flaps 8, V2+20 Flaps up, all done under
autopilot. Kick it off when you hear GPWS call out "100" on a precision
approach, handfly the last 80feet (bout where you will be by the time your
finger pushes the disconnect button) to touchdown, kick off and handfly when
inbound FAF and have field in sight on a nonprecision approach. Fly raw
data approaches from time to time for practice (no flight director no
autopilot, just HSI, airspeed, and altitude). CRJ actually has "footrests"
on the panel to keep the nonflying pilot from putting scuffmarks on the PFDs
and MFDs. Even single engine flying is done with autopilot, tho u need to
keep a watch out that it doesnt' take the rudder to the disconnect limit,
and if it does be ready to handfly the sucker.

[John Gaquin]

> wrote in message
>
>...how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?

In both the 727 and 747, my general rule of thumb was that I would take-off
and hand fly to FL250; on approach, I would disengage at 10K and hand fly
the rest of the way. Of course, weather, crew fatigue, and regulation would
take precedence.

[Bob Moore]

"John Gaquin" >wrote

> In both the 727 and 747, my general rule of thumb was that I
> would take-off and hand fly to FL250; on approach, I would
> disengage at 10K and hand fly the rest of the way. Of course,
> weather, crew fatigue, and regulation would take precedence.

Gee, John, that didn't leave much time to eat and read
the newspaper did it? :-)

Bob Moore

[John Gaquin]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
>
> Gee, John, that didn't leave much time to eat and read
> the newspaper did it? :-)

Of course, all plans are amendable. ;-) In the 747, there was time for
newspaper, dinner, coffee, a nice nap, and breakfast. That plane carries
too damned much fuel!!

[Bob Moore]

"John Gaquin" >wrote

> Of course, all plans are amendable. ;-) In the 747, there was
> time for newspaper, dinner, coffee, a nice nap, and breakfast.
> That plane carries too damned much fuel!!

Yeah, but it sure cut down on trips to the airport! :-)
That's why I preferred the 707 over the 727, never did the 747.
11 hours in a 707 was long enough for me.

Bob

[John Gaquin]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
>
> Yeah, but it sure cut down on trips to the airport! :-)

Too true!

> That's why I preferred the 707 over the 727, never did the 747.
> 11 hours in a 707 was long enough for me.

I can't imagine doing 11 hours in a 707, frankly. Long legs weren't so bad
in the 747, particularly since most of my 747 time was cargo, where there
was no aft cockpit bulkhead, and an open upper deck. It was like having a
40' long cockpit. Of course, in cargo you get loaded to the gills, so long
legs (over 7 hours) were relatively rare - ferries, usually. Had one
contract where we'd fly loaded Kennedy-Moscow with a fuel stop at Prestwick,
but we weren't allowed to carry cargo outbound. We would overnight in the
hotel there at SVO, and then ferry to Hong Kong the next day. Not permitted
to overfly China, we would go all the way east in Russian airspace, and then
down the coast to HKG. About 11 hours. God I hated that trip! :-)

[Darrell S]

wrote:
> Salutations All,
>
> I know this isn't a flight-simulator group, but I've got a question
> for all the real pilots out there: In general, how much do commercial
> aviation pilots use their auto-pilot?
>
> I've been spending time learning IFR navigation in FS 2004, and while
> up and about I'm constantly getting different instructions from the
> controllers, things like "climb to FL200" or stuff like that. What
> I've found, though, is that the easiest way to make these minor
> course and altitude corrections is to just punch it into the
> autopilot, and let it do the work. This is, of course, exceptionally
> boring - and thus my question!
>
> Anyways, any insights anyone can give would be most appreciated!
> Thanks!
>
> Bryan Porter
> ==

Many commercial aircraft have an Altitude Pre-select window on a Flight
Guidance Control Panel or something similar. The autopilot will not go
through that pre-selected altitude even if the Flight Management System has
a further altitude selected. On preflight the routes and altitudes are
preprogrammed into a computer which can (if engaged) control through the
autopilot. Say you filed for a cruise altitude of FL 350 and entered it
into the computer. After takeoff during climb to cruise altitude ATC
doesn't normally clear you to the final altitude due to traffic. The
computer/AP tries to climb to the cruise altitude but when it encounters the
last ATC clearance altitude which the crew always sets in the Alitude Alert
window it levels off. Some aircraft automatically switch to altitude hold
and others may enter a cruise level mode. When ATC clears you to a higher
altitude it is set in that window and Vertical Nav (FMS) or another climb
mode will continue the climb to that new altitude.

--

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

[.Blueskies.]

"Dan Foster" > wrote in message ...
> In article >,
> .Blueskies. > wrote:
>>
>> The 747 has been capable of this for years, since ~69 or so. The pilot
>> does have to advance the throttles though...
>
> With the 744, I don't believe VNAV kicks in until 400 ft AGL. Below
> 400', you've got LNAV/FD/autothrottles.
>
> -Dan

Yup, folks don't realize they are flying in a human monitored robot...

[Jim Macklin]

When the L-1011 came out, the joke was that the pilot sat
behind a glass wall and had a hammer in case of an
emergency.

On the other hand, a couple of rubber bands will serve in a
J3 for a while.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


".Blueskies." > wrote in
message
t...
|
| "Dan Foster" > wrote in message
...
| > In article
>,
| > .Blueskies. > wrote:
| >>
| >> The 747 has been capable of this for years, since ~69
or so. The pilot
| >> does have to advance the throttles though...
| >
| > With the 744, I don't believe VNAV kicks in until 400 ft
AGL. Below
| > 400', you've got LNAV/FD/autothrottles.
| >
| > -Dan
|
| Yup, folks don't realize they are flying in a human
monitored robot...
|
|

[John Gaquin]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
>
> Don't ask me why such Airbuses aren't certified for pilotless flight;
> union pressures, perhaps :o)

Unmanned flight has been feasible for several years. There is no concerted
effort to implement such a program in the airline world for the simple
reason that no one would get on the airplane.

[John Gaquin]

".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>
> The 747 has been capable of this for years, since ~69 or so. The pilot
> does have to advance the throttles though...


Not in all cases. I flew -100s and -200s. Some of the -200s were
autothrottle equipped.

[John Gaquin]

".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>
> Yup, folks don't realize they are flying in a human monitored robot...


You don't get paid for pushing the button.

You get paid for knowing which button to push.

[Grumman-581]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
> Unmanned flight has been feasible for several years. There is no
concerted
> effort to implement such a program in the airline world for the simple
> reason that no one would get on the airplane.

Basically, "If I'm going to die in this plane, I want there to be a
reasonable chance that the pilot will also"...

[Ash Wyllie]

John Gaquin opined

>".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>>
>> Yup, folks don't realize they are flying in a human monitored robot...


>You don't get paid for pushing the button.

>You get paid for knowing which button to push.

Don't you really get paid to know what to do when there isn't a right button to
push?

-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Darrell S]

John Gaquin wrote:
> ".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>>
>> Yup, folks don't realize they are flying in a human monitored
>> robot...
>
>
> You don't get paid for pushing the button.
>
> You get paid for knowing which button to push.

And "button pusher" pilots have been making lawn darts out of their aircraft
all over this planet.

--

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

[John Gaquin]

"Darrell S" > wrote in message news:MUyuf.1138
..
>
> And "button pusher" pilots have been making lawn darts out of their
> aircraft all over this planet.

Good God! Its a figure of speech, Darrell, a figure of speech!

[.Blueskies.]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message ...
>
> ".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>>
>> Yup, folks don't realize they are flying in a human monitored robot...
>
>
> You don't get paid for pushing the button.
>
> You get paid for knowing which button to push.
>


and when to push it! ;-)

[.Blueskies.]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message ...
>
> ".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>>
>> The 747 has been capable of this for years, since ~69 or so. The pilot does have to advance the throttles though...
>
>
> Not in all cases. I flew -100s and -200s. Some of the -200s were autothrottle equipped.
>

The autothrottle was for approach, right? Takeoff still needed to be initiated didn't it?

[John Gaquin]

".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>>
>
> The autothrottle was for approach, right? Takeoff still needed to be
> initiated didn't it?

IIRC, the autothrottle could be engaged in most modes, but there was no
takeoff mode available. When I used it (which was rare) it was in either
cruise or approach. I didn't like it much.

[John Gaquin]

"Grumman-581" >
>
> Basically, "If I'm going to die in this plane, I want there to be a
> reasonable chance that the pilot will also"...


No, I don't think that's it.

[.Blueskies.]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message ...
>
> ".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> The autothrottle was for approach, right? Takeoff still needed to be initiated didn't it?
>
> IIRC, the autothrottle could be engaged in most modes, but there was no takeoff mode available. When I used it (which
> was rare) it was in either cruise or approach. I didn't like it much.
>

That's the way I understood it. The autopilot et al could handle all the FD stuff, but you still had to set power until
coupled on approach. It's got to be a blast flying one of those birds...The closest I got was flying the PamAm 747 sim
in San Fran way back when.

[John Gaquin]

".Blueskies." > wrote in message

> It's got to be a blast flying one of those birds...The closest I got was
> flying the PamAm 747 sim in San Fran way back when.

The 747 is an interesting and enjoyable airplane to fly, but it is different
due to its size. Without question I preferred the 727.

[Bob Moore]

"John Gaquin" >wrote

> The 747 is an interesting and enjoyable airplane to fly, but it
> is different due to its size. Without question I preferred the
> 727.

You know John, our PanAm 727s were equipped with autothrottles,
and autoland even with just a single autopilot. They were still
restricted to CATII approach minimums but if you saw any of those
FAR 91.175 things, you could continue the autoland to touchdown.

Bob Moore

[.Blueskies.]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message . ..
>
> ".Blueskies." > wrote in message
>
>> It's got to be a blast flying one of those birds...The closest I got was flying the PamAm 747 sim in San Fran way
>> back when.
>
> The 747 is an interesting and enjoyable airplane to fly, but it is different due to its size. Without question I
> preferred the 727.
>

I remember rolling in to a turn, and it kind of slowly came around. I was able to fly it for about 5 minutes as a part
of a tour of their facility.

I have heard the '27 was much more responsive. There is a video at the Chicago COSI where they have the 727 on display.
It shows them landing it at Meigs field. Only a couple of souls on board and very light. Nice short landing....

[John Gaquin]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
>
> You know John, our PanAm 727s were equipped with autothrottles,
> and autoland even with just a single autopilot. They were still
> restricted to CATII approach minimums but if you saw any of those
> FAR 91.175 things, you could continue the autoland to touchdown.

Our 727s had no autothrottle. We only had a single autopilot, but certain
airplanes had autoland capability, autopilots with dual pitch channels, roll
monitors, and flare couplers, plus dual r/a, and several other redundancies.
In those a/c, we were good to CatIIIa when all was working properly and the
crew was qualified. Without 1 pitch channel, roll monitor, or flare
coupler, we were restricted to CatII. With no autothrottle, you'd wait for
the flare, triggered by RA, and manually reduce power. After touchdown,
disengage and steer manually.

One year there was a truckload of crappy weather across the southeast just
before Christmas. I flew 5 CatIII approaches in 3 days.