ATC accents

[Ramapriya]

Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC chaps
around the world? The German guy in our office always has a problem
picking up words I (an Indian) pronounce, and I can't fault him for
that, because most Europeans can't figure Indians' pronounciation.

But I guess this problem is with a few Spaniards and Italians too, the
way they speak English, with accentuated guttural sounds and all that.

Is this a trivial problem, considering the standard phraseology in use
in ATC communications, or can it lead to something worse?

Ramapriya

[Jim Macklin]

There have been a number of incidents and a few accidents
that were caused by or in which language was a factor. The
747s that collided on the runway at Tenerife was one of
those accidents. NASA safety reports cite many language
problems http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of
various ATC chaps
| around the world? The German guy in our office always has
a problem
| picking up words I (an Indian) pronounce, and I can't
fault him for
| that, because most Europeans can't figure Indians'
pronounciation.
|
| But I guess this problem is with a few Spaniards and
Italians too, the
| way they speak English, with accentuated guttural sounds
and all that.
|
| Is this a trivial problem, considering the standard
phraseology in use
| in ATC communications, or can it lead to something worse?
|
| Ramapriya
|

[Bob Moore]

"Ramapriya" >wrote

> Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC
> chaps around the world?

We, at PanAm, didn't have all that much of a problem.

Bob Moore

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Bob Moore > said:
>"Ramapriya" >wrote
>> Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC
>> chaps around the world?
>
>We, at PanAm, didn't have all that much of a problem.

I deal with a lot of French Canadian accents, but I never have any trouble
understanding them. But that might just be because I grew up with them.

I heard a guy flying a Canadian reg plane with a thick hispanic accent the
other day, and I couldn't understand half of what he was saying, and he
seemed to be having trouble understanding the controllers. Fortunately it
was a good VFR day and so it didn't matter so much.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
With M$, as far as I'm aware, the stupidity comes bundled with the software.
-- Meg Thornton

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 07:09:11 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>There have been a number of incidents and a few accidents
>that were caused by or in which language was a factor. The
>747s that collided on the runway at Tenerife was one of
>those accidents. NASA safety reports cite many language
>problems http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Just before Xmas I flew with an instructor, from Tenerife North (Los
Rodeos), and he said the other factor was one transmission stamping on
the another:-(

When I flew I did most of the radio calls with ground, tower, approach
including La Gomera. There were no problems and their English was
pretty good (100% better than my Spanish!).

I have flown either solo or with an instructor in a number of coutries
with no problems (Finland, Spain, Portugal, Canada, USA, New Zealand,
Bahamas, St. Lucia). Any problems have been due to local procedures or
names. e.g. the Hawaiian language has very few letters and
pronunciation of place names is interesting.

To be honest I've found some of the UK Military very poor and I've
sometimes reported difficuly copying, but that's usually been due to
distortion on their transmission.

[Jim Macklin]

The best solution, until everybody speaks with a USA Midwest
dialect, is to say, "Unable to understand the clearance,
please speak slower and use "words twice" please."

I think when language becomes an issue, missed radio calls
and blocked transmissions are more of a problem because the
frequency congestion is not noticed.

The use of a good headset is very important, cabin speakers
are generally terrible.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

> wrote in message
...
| On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 07:09:11 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >There have been a number of incidents and a few accidents
| >that were caused by or in which language was a factor.
The
| >747s that collided on the runway at Tenerife was one of
| >those accidents. NASA safety reports cite many language
| >problems http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
|
| Just before Xmas I flew with an instructor, from Tenerife
North (Los
| Rodeos), and he said the other factor was one transmission
stamping on
| the another:-(
|
| When I flew I did most of the radio calls with ground,
tower, approach
| including La Gomera. There were no problems and their
English was
| pretty good (100% better than my Spanish!).
|
| I have flown either solo or with an instructor in a number
of coutries
| with no problems (Finland, Spain, Portugal, Canada, USA,
New Zealand,
| Bahamas, St. Lucia). Any problems have been due to local
procedures or
| names. e.g. the Hawaiian language has very few letters and
| pronunciation of place names is interesting.
|
| To be honest I've found some of the UK Military very poor
and I've
| sometimes reported difficuly copying, but that's usually
been due to
| distortion on their transmission.

[John Gaquin]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message

> Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC chaps
> around the world?
>
> Is this a trivial problem, considering the standard phraseology in use
> in ATC communications, or can it lead to something worse?

The myriad accents are exactly why standardized phraseology is important in
international ops. I personally think a lot of folks get overly anal about
it in domestic use, but that's just my opinion.

There were some places I had to work at understanding ATC, but the only
place I had a real problem was Cairo. I have a devil of a time
understanding an Egyptian speaking English. Similar difficulty in other
areas of northeast Africa, but Cairo was the worst, for me. Another problem
of a different kind was in Saudi Arabia. Many of their controllers refused
to answer the radio for a female pilot. Welcome to the fourteenth century!

Quick story re standardized language: We used to fuel stop in Khabarovsk
enroute HKG-ANC. In the early 90s, we were among the first Americans to
regularly use the port commercially after the USSR collapse, and the Russian
ATC guys were not all that proficient at English, particularly if you had to
go non-standard. On one of our first trips in, we called approaching
Russian airspace, but we were quite a bit earlier than schedule (the
vagaries of the cargo world). The Russian on the ground replied,
laboriously churning out the unfamiliar words " _________, why are you
here?" To my American pop-culture ears, raised in the 50s and 60s US of A,
he sounded for all the world like Boris Badenov!!!! I couldn't help myself.
Grabbing the mike, I put on my best, deep, gutteral accent and said,
"...Looking for moose and squirrel!"

The poor son of a gun on the ground had no idea what we were saying, and the
four of us in the office were incapacitated laughing for a good 2 or 3
minutes. I've often wondered how close we came to getting escorted or shot
at!!

[John Gaquin]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
>
> We, at PanAm, didn't have all that much of a problem.


I'd be willing to bet that in the glory days of PanAm, many countries made
damn sure their best english speaker was on duty when you guys were
scheduled in. Hell, when I was in the mid-east in the AF, hundreds of
people from surrounding villages used to come to the airport 3 days a week
just to watch your 707 come and go.

[Bob Moore]

"John Gaquin" >wrote
> I'd be willing to bet that in the glory days of PanAm, many
> countries made damn sure their best english speaker was on duty
> when you guys were scheduled in. Hell, when I was in the
> mid-east in the AF, hundreds of people from surrounding villages
> used to come to the airport 3 days a week just to watch your 707
> come and go.

Ah yes...the glory days at PanAm. I joined PanAm toward the end
of those great times. The PanAm ticket office in any city served
as a quasi-embassy for those requiring assistance while traveling.
It was a real privelage for an African ruler to have his daughter
serve as a PanAm "stewardess". A PanAm I.D. card would get you
anything that you needed anywhere in the world. Great Days!!
Flying at PanAm was a life style, not just stick and rudder flying.

Bob Moore
PanAm 1967-1991 (retired)

[Flyingmonk]

Can't think of a personal experience, but I'm sure it has happened.

The Monk

[Chris]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:rRbuf.38900$QW2.10373@dukeread08...
> The best solution, until everybody speaks with a USA Midwest
> dialect, is to say, "Unable to understand the clearance,
> please speak slower and use "words twice" please."
>
> I think when language becomes an issue, missed radio calls
> and blocked transmissions are more of a problem because the
> frequency congestion is not noticed.
>
> The use of a good headset is very important, cabin speakers
> are generally terrible.
>

worst problem I had was with trying to get an IFR clearance at Hawthorne. It
took four attempts before the guy with a thick Hispanic type accent got the
clearance across. I would have kept him all day until I could understand
him.

[Chris]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Ramapriya" > wrote in message
>
>> Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC chaps
>> around the world?
>>
>> Is this a trivial problem, considering the standard phraseology in use
>> in ATC communications, or can it lead to something worse?
>
> The myriad accents are exactly why standardized phraseology is important
> in international ops. I personally think a lot of folks get overly anal
> about it in domestic use, but that's just my opinion.

But US domestic ops are International ops for many. The French have the same
problem. Use French with the French even at CDG.

[Blanche]

Worst time I ever had was with a hotel operator in New Jersey. All
I was trying to do was make a reservation...

[John Gaquin]

"Chris" > wrote in message
>
> But US domestic ops are International ops for many. The French have the
> same problem. Use French with the French even at CDG.


Yes, you're right. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. "Domestic"
ops at Kennedy or Dulles or a host of others are, as you say, truly
international, and should be treated as such. But I was referring to [and
here I place the caveat that I haven't flown anything anywhere in almost 10
years - I'm going by what I read on this NG and others] posters I read
here and elsewhere who rail on adamantly insisting on standardized
phraseology at airports that are 99% local traffic 99% of the time. I
simply don't think its worth getting crazy over in that environment. Takes
some of the fun away, in my view.

[Jay Beckman]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC chaps
> around the world? The German guy in our office always has a problem
> picking up words I (an Indian) pronounce, and I can't fault him for
> that, because most Europeans can't figure Indians' pronounciation.
>
> But I guess this problem is with a few Spaniards and Italians too, the
> way they speak English, with accentuated guttural sounds and all that.
>
> Is this a trivial problem, considering the standard phraseology in use
> in ATC communications, or can it lead to something worse?
>
> Ramapriya

I once missed several calls from the guy working arrival / departure at
Yuma, AZ because he pronounced "Skyhawk" as something akin to "Sawk" (said
very quickly...) and my brain wouldn't connect that he was talkin' to me.
Upon further review, he had a pronounced Texas twang so that explains
that...<g d r>

Conversely, Chinese pilots who train out of Ryan Airfield near Tucson
sometimes give the controllers fits. Yes, they're speaking English, but
barely. Couple of weeks ago, it took a dozen tries for one of the Luke AFB
controllers to get a handle on what this guy was asking. It started to give
me a headache just listening to him.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

[GS]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> The best solution, until everybody speaks with a USA Midwest
> dialect,....

dialect is the keyword as opposed to accent.

I had been in England years ago
but when I went a few years ago I realized how different
a language the Queen's English is from North American English.
Further, each region of England is very different. I further
realized how different the dialects are within the US.
I'm from NY, live in the Republik of Kalifornia and probably
a few times a week I still get asked to repeat something due to
my accent (I usually reply, "Accent? What f**kin' accent? I
ain't got no accent. Where's you's accent from? :) :) ).

Gerald

[Chris]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:EKeuf.1938$jR.1134@fed1read01...
> "Ramapriya" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Have anyone of you had a problem with the accents of various ATC chaps
>> around the world? The German guy in our office always has a problem
>> picking up words I (an Indian) pronounce, and I can't fault him for
>> that, because most Europeans can't figure Indians' pronounciation.
>>
>> But I guess this problem is with a few Spaniards and Italians too, the
>> way they speak English, with accentuated guttural sounds and all that.
>>
>> Is this a trivial problem, considering the standard phraseology in use
>> in ATC communications, or can it lead to something worse?
>>
>> Ramapriya
>
> I once missed several calls from the guy working arrival / departure at
> Yuma, AZ because he pronounced "Skyhawk" as something akin to "Sawk" (said
> very quickly...) and my brain wouldn't connect that he was talkin' to me.
> Upon further review, he had a pronounced Texas twang so that explains
> that...<g d r>
>
> Conversely, Chinese pilots who train out of Ryan Airfield near Tucson
> sometimes give the controllers fits. Yes, they're speaking English, but
> barely. Couple of weeks ago, it took a dozen tries for one of the Luke
> AFB controllers to get a handle on what this guy was asking. It started
> to give me a headache just listening to him.

Having just returned home from a vacation in Florida I did a trip from Page
(KFMY) to Vero Beach. When I tuned in on the ATIS it took me a while to
confirm that it was the right ATIS. The guy was saying "Vero Beach" and
making it sound like "Verbiage".

[Steve Foley]

I believe they were talking about English speakers, not foreigners from
Joisey.


"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Worst time I ever had was with a hotel operator in New Jersey. All
> I was trying to do was make a reservation...
>

[John Gaquin]

"Blanche" > wrote in message

> Worst time I ever had was with a hotel operator in New Jersey. All
> I was trying to do was make a reservation...


Fuggedaboudit!!

[[email protected]]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> There have been a number of incidents and a few accidents
> that were caused by or in which language was a factor. The
> 747s that collided on the runway at Tenerife was one of
> those accidents. NASA safety reports cite many language
> problems http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

The problem is compounded if English is not the native language of
either party. This was a factor in the Tenerife incident. It is bad
enough if only one side of the conversation is with a nonnative
English speaker.

Some years ago I was based at a busy Class C airport that seemed to
have a good number of visiting pilots with a limited command of English
(this was pre - 9/11).
Coming or going on a busy VFR weekend day was interesting, to say the
least.

David Johnson

[John Clear]

In article om>,
> wrote:
>
>The problem is compounded if English is not the native language of
>either party. This was a factor in the Tenerife incident. It is bad
>enough if only one side of the conversation is with a nonnative
>English speaker.

I recall reading about a recent accident where the cockpit crew's
only common language was aviation English. I think it was the
depressurization one in Greece, although a quick check of Google News
didn't turn up anything.

Ok, Avweb had this:

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_37a/briefs/190558-1.html

which references:

http://iht.com/articles/2005/09/06/news/crash.php

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[George Patterson]

Blanche wrote:
> All I was trying to do was make a reservation...

That's what you *thought* you were doing. What you were really doing was
interupting his TV show and trying to make him work.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Morgans]

> wrote

> Just before Xmas I flew with an instructor, from Tenerife North (Los
> Rodeos), and he said the other factor was one transmission stamping on
> the another:-(

<chuckle>
Although I understood exactly what you meant in the above exchange, upon
seeing your posting location, I thought I would clear up one thing for you,
for use when you are talking to US pilots.

Here, in the US, when two people try to transmit at the same time, we call
it "stepping" on the other's transmission, rather than "stamping."

Perhaps if we step on someone's transmission really hard, we could call it
"stamping." <g>

Funny thing, this language we Brits and US citizens supposedly share, eh?
<g>
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
> Perhaps if we step on someone's transmission really hard, we could call it
> "stamping." <g>
>
> Funny thing, this language we Brits and US citizens supposedly share, eh?
> <g>


I like their term "orbits" better than our term "circuits".


Montblack

[Jim Macklin]

closed traffic



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Montblack" > wrote in
message ...
| ("Morgans" wrote)
| > Perhaps if we step on someone's transmission really
hard, we could call it
| > "stamping." <g>
| >
| > Funny thing, this language we Brits and US citizens
supposedly share, eh?
| > <g>
|
|
| I like their term "orbits" better than our term
"circuits".
|
|
| Montblack
|