AOPA Truth Squad

[skylunelives]

Will be monitoring.... There are many newsgroups/readers out there!!

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--
skylunelives
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Skylune]

>>by skylunelives > Jan 10,
2006 at 09:33 AM


Will be monitoring.... There are many newsgroups/readers out there!!

Legal Disclaimer: nothing in this post, prevsious posts, or subsequent
posts (hereinafter referred to as "Posts")should be interpreted to
annoy, threaten, or otherwise harass any Person, party, or group of
Persons. Any resemblance to real persons is purely unintentional
and/or coincidental. Should any reader interpret any Post otherwise,
please call 1-800-EAT-ME.


--
skylunelives<<

I called the number and got an operator for GA Serving Amerika.

I was a bit surprised, but used the opportunity to politely ask if the
final crash statistics for 04 vs. 05 have been compiled yet. They haven't
been. Earlier in the year, I did a quick comparison and found that '05 was
beating '04 handily (I posted that data from NTSB, filtering on GA
accidents).

Then there seemed to be a lull in crashes around October/early November,
maybe due to bad weather that grounded most of the old tin cans. But then
things really picked up late in the year, and I'm thinking that the
carnage in '05 probably edged out '04 crash counts. I guess I'll have to
wait for the Nall report, as I don't feel like adding up all the numbers.

Next I asked about how they arrived at the comparison of how long it would
take to fly from the Boston area to the DC area on a GA plane vs.
commercial. They referred me to a handy chart:

http://www.gaservingamerica.org/Advantages_diagram.htm

I asked, would that 7.8 hours (vs. 16 hours for air carrier)be in a C-152
("Fear Me!") or a high performance plane? She didn't know, but would get
back to me. I then asked what would happen to the 7.8 hours if the
unthinkable happened e.g. low clouds developed, or nightfall occurred.
She wasn't sure, but would get back to me.

Finally, I mentioned that many people I know of take the shuttle to DC for
business meetings, and return home the same day, in much less than 16
hours, travel time included. I was going to ask a question, but she was
clearly getting frustrated, and I was concerned I might be breaking the
new federal annoyance laws, so I stopped talking for a minute.

Then I asked how much it costs to fly GA vs. commercial, and she hung up.
I was annoyed. There should be a law....

[George Patterson]

Skylune wrote:

> I asked, would that 7.8 hours (vs. 16 hours for air carrier)be in a C-152
> ("Fear Me!") or a high performance plane? She didn't know, but would get
> back to me. I then asked what would happen to the 7.8 hours if the
> unthinkable happened e.g. low clouds developed, or nightfall occurred.

The web site says the aircraft is a Bonanza. Running my flight planning
software, the trip would take 36 minutes longer in a Cessna 172 and 50 minutes
longer in my old Maule. Nightfall is not "unthinkable"; I'm a relatively low
time VFR pilot, and I've logged many hours cross-country at night quite safely.
Depending on how low is "low", clouds may not be a problem. I can stay under any
cloud cover down to about 1200' quite safely. Furthermore, that sort of thing
rarely develops without warning, so it isn't going to happen if the pilot checks
weather and makes moderately intelligent decisions. If the pilot is instrument
rated, it's pretty much a non-issue anyway.

If, however, weather deteriorated to the point that a landing a Frederick cannot
be made, the pilot simply diverts to another airport (perhaps Carrol County at
Westminster) and rents a car. That adds about 90 minutes to the trip.

> I was annoyed. There should be a law....

There should be a law to force people to listen to your drivel?

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Andrew Gideon]

George Patterson wrote:

> Nightfall is not "unthinkable"

To you. To some people, each nightfall is a complete and utter surprise.

- Andrew

[BDS]

"Skylune" > wrote

> I asked, would that 7.8 hours (vs. 16 hours for air carrier)be in a C-152
> ("Fear Me!") or a high performance plane?

7.8 hrs seems quite high unless you're talking about a C150.

> I then asked what would happen to the 7.8 hours if the
> unthinkable happened e.g. low clouds developed, or nightfall occurred.

Depends on the capabilities of the pilot and the aircraft.

> Finally, I mentioned that many people I know of take the shuttle to DC for
> business meetings, and return home the same day, in much less than 16
> hours, travel time included.

Depends on where you're going. Quite often I fly into small GA airports
near my customers - who are also usually more than happy to pick me up -
when the nearest large commercial airport would have been 2 or more hours'
drive away from my destination.

> Then I asked how much it costs to fly GA vs. commercial

Depends on what you're flying, where you're going, and how much your time
and convenience are worth to you.

I would much rather travel by light airplane than by commercial airlines and
it really isn't totally related to being a pilot. There is much less
hassle, you are on your own schedule, you can almost always land within a
30-minute drive or less of your destination, and you can save lots of time
and mental fatigue.

It is also much easier to bring things along on the trip when you fly
yourself than it is to take them on the airlines.

Have I cancelled trips due to weather? - Yes. The airlines cancel lots of
flights too, for various reasons. But, I have also been able to land,
refuel, and depart on my happy way when the airlines were forced to circle
while waiting for the reported weather to improve.

[Skylune]

Yes, depends on the capabilities of the pilot, as well as the capabilities
of the average business traveller, who does NOT spend hours walking
around, 90 minutes in security, hours waiting for rental cars, etc.

This absurd chart is really comparing a highly skilled, instrument
certified private pilot, flying in a high performance Doctor Killer
Bonanza, who lives across the street from his hangar and has a meeting
next to another GA airport to a businessman dunce who spends hours
wandering ineptly around parking lots, terminals, and then takes forever
to get to his Rent a Car.

And the private pilot obviously walks really, really fast. The increased
walking speed I believe, because by the time the little plane lands, the
pilot really, really, really needs to take a leak.

[Skylune]

.......and, from your very own Greenspun:

"The Most Dangerous Words a Pilot Can Say
"I will be there on June 5 at 6:00 pm." Pilots of light aircraft who utter
sentences of that form are very high risk pilots, regardless of skill
level. If you promise to get to specific places at specific times you will
eventually run afoul of weather and other circumstances that are beyond you
and your aircraft's capabilities."

That is not propaganda. GA serving Amerika serves up BS.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

"Skylune" > writes:

> [...] I called the number and got an operator for GA Serving
> Amerika. I was a bit surprised [...]

Don't be. As you and others ably argued, AOPA is, amongst its other
roles, a promotional organization that is going to dwell mainly on the
pro-GA (and pro-AOPA) angle of any story. Other than the few "true
believers" who cannot bear any sort of criticism upon AOPA, the rest
of us can treat them with the appropriate mixture of gratitude and
skepticism.


- FChE

[Skylune]

>>George P wrote:



There should be a law to force people to listen to your drivel?

George Patterson<<

Forced? Huh? You are being forced to use the Usenet? And to read my
"drivel?"

Damn!!, I had no idea how bad it is for the pilots. Is that some sort of
requirement in the BFR? Or are you being held captive like the guy in
"Clockwork Orange?"

[Skylune]

>>by (Frank Ch. Eigler) Jan 10, 2006 at 05:30 PM


"Skylune" > writes:

> [...] I called the number and got an operator for GA Serving
> Amerika. I was a bit surprised [...]

Don't be. As you and others ably argued, AOPA is, amongst its other
roles, a promotional organization that is going to dwell mainly on the
pro-GA (and pro-AOPA) angle of any story. Other than the few "true
believers" who cannot bear any sort of criticism upon AOPA, the rest
of us can treat them with the appropriate mixture of gratitude and
skepticism.


- FChE<<

FChE: Thank you. A voice of sanity in the wilderness....

The AOPA stuff is so amateurish and unbelievable that I doubt it will
attract anyone to flying who is not already predisposed to undertaking
what, for the vast majority, is a hobby to be enjoyed when the weather is
good.

I just find it absolutely hysterical when Boyer's people seek to "educate"
the "civilians."

[George Patterson]

Skylune wrote:

> And the private pilot obviously walks really, really fast. The increased
> walking speed I believe, because by the time the little plane lands, the
> pilot really, really, really needs to take a leak.

Looks like the bathroom stop has been left off of both sides of the chart. As
for walking, it's obvious that you've never flown into FDK. The transient
aircraft parking is right outside of the FBO. It really doesn't take long to
walk 50 feet.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[George Patterson]

Skylune wrote:

> Forced?

You said you were annoyed that she hung up and that there "should be a law."
Again. There should be a law to force people to listen to your drivel? That
appears to be what you propose.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Dave Stadt]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Yes, depends on the capabilities of the pilot, as well as the capabilities
> of the average business traveller, who does NOT spend hours walking
> around, 90 minutes in security, hours waiting for rental cars, etc.

Maybe you didn't hear about the recent United fiasco where people had to
stand in lines at ORD for 4 hours which resulted in missed flights and other
wonderful experiences. It appears you have not flown much if any commercial
in the past several years.

[George Patterson]

Skylune wrote:

> Next I asked about how they arrived at the comparison of how long it would
> take to fly from the Boston area to the DC area on a GA plane vs.
> commercial. They referred me to a handy chart:
>
> http://www.gaservingamerica.org/Advantages_diagram.htm

Well, I'll give you another comparison. The occasion was flying down to
Knoxville, Tennessee for my mother's 80th birthday party. My brother and I took
my Maule down.

Plan flight 30 minutes
Drive to airport 45 minutes
Load baggage 5 minutes
Preflight 15 minutes
Start & taxi to runway 5 minutes
Fly to Shenandoah Valley Regional 138 minutes
Taxi to ramp 2 minutes
Fuel stop 20 minutes
Preflight/walkaround 5 minutes
Start & taxi for TO 3 minutes
Fly to Knoxville 158 minutes
Park & leave instructions at FBO 10 minutes
Walk to car 1 minute

Total 7 hrs, 17 minutes

If I were to do it today via Delta Airlines with the current security,

Limo to airport 45 minutes
Walk in & check bags 10 minutes
Clear security 90 minutes
Boarding & pushback 15 minutes
Taxi to runway 15 minutes
Fly to Knoxville via Atlanta 329 minutes
Jetway & deplane 10 minutes
Claim baggage 15 minutes
Walk to car 10 minutes

Total 8 hours, 59 minutes

Since there were two of us, it was much cheaper to fly the Maule down than pay
Delta.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[BDS]

"Skylune" > wrote

> This absurd chart is really comparing a highly skilled, instrument
> certified private pilot, flying in a high performance Doctor Killer
> Bonanza, who lives across the street from his hangar and has a meeting
> next to another GA airport to a businessman dunce who spends hours
> wandering ineptly around parking lots, terminals, and then takes forever
> to get to his Rent a Car.

I didn't see the chart so I don't know how ridiculous it was. The fact is,
more often than not GA can get you there and back quicker and with much less
hassle than commercial airlines or your car can. If you want to use GA for
serious travel, you need a serious airplane and a serious approach to your
flying and towards maintaining your proficiency. On the other hand, if you
have the time you can cross the country flying VFR in a Cub - something I'd
absolutely love to do some day.

Another example - we need to take a piece of delicate, yet somewhat heavy
(150 lbs) demo equipment to a customer. What makes more sense, ship it both
ways hoping it doesn't get damaged and hope that it's there when you show
up, take it on the airline (good luck) if you can and hope it doesn't get
damaged, drive the car 8 hrs each way, or fly GA where you can take it with
you and land within a short drive of your destination, do the demo, get the
order, and be back in time for dinner (and also not lose the use of the demo
for several days while it is in transit if you shipped it).

Several years ago we had a prospective client who was leaning towards the
competition. He didn't have the time to come up to see our plant and our
product and he wanted to make his decision right away. We offered to fly
him to our plant for a visit and a product demo and promised to have him
back in his office that afternoon - he jumped at the chance. It was a
beautiful CAVU day and that flight could have been made by any pilot in just
about any airplane. We got the order, and that one order (which we would
have lost were it not for our GA capabilities) paid for half the cost of our
airplane. Since that day that airplane has made many similar flights and
has paid for itself many times over. BTW - this flight was from New England
to eastern Long Island - a 45 min flight across the sound versus a 6-8 hr
drive each way, or more depending on traffic. A commercial flight was not
even an option.

You appear to have very limited exposure to GA and the things it can make
possible, either that, or you are a very short-sighted person. Not all GA
flying is a hamburger hop in a 150, but then, there's also nothing like
flying just for the joy of it. Work isn't everything.

[Skylune]

>>by George Patterson > Jan 10, 2006 at 11:54 PM


Skylune wrote:

> Next I asked about how they arrived at the comparison of how long it
would
> take to fly from the Boston area to the DC area on a GA plane vs.
> commercial. They referred me to a handy chart:
>
> http://www.gaservingamerica.org/Advantages_diagram.htm

Well, I'll give you another comparison. The occasion was flying down to
Knoxville, Tennessee for my mother's 80th birthday party. My brother and
I
took
my Maule down.....<<

That comparison seems far more reasonable than what was on the AOPA
website. Sure they are an advocacy organization. But I just don't
understand why they think that need to resort to total BS to sell their
product. Then they wonder why there are such high drop out rates by
trainees....

On cost though: its cheaper for YOU in terms of marginal cost (fuel,
tie-down or hangar fees, etc.). But for someone to take up flying in
order to save time, which is the ad's goal, it would be much more
expensive (factoring in flight training, amortizing the cost of the
airplane (or renting).

These misleading ads on the web site

[Andrew Gideon]

George Patterson wrote:

> Since there were two of us, it was much cheaper to fly the Maule down than
> pay Delta.
>

Another factor is uncertainty. If a GA flight is delayed, there's no hiding
of the expected delay. The delay itself may be uncertain (ie. due to
weather), but it's an uncertainty built around known conditions and
requirements. No secrets.

Commercial air does a lousy job of letting the cargo know what's going on
and when.

Similarly, if a GA flight is delayed, the crew and passengers aren't stuck
in a tin can waiting for some unknown period of time in a parking area
somewhere on the airport.

Yes, delays occur. But they're more painful on commercial flights.

- Andrew

[BDS]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote

> Yes, delays occur. But they're more painful on commercial flights.

Anyone who doesn't believe that should watch "Airline" on A & E some night.
Yikes!!

[Skylune]

>>by Andrew Gideon <ag7337@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Jan 11, 2006 at 12:56 PM


George Patterson wrote:

> Since there were two of us, it was much cheaper to fly the Maule down
than
> pay Delta.
>

Another factor is uncertainty. If a GA flight is delayed, there's no
hiding
of the expected delay. The delay itself may be uncertain (ie. due to
weather), but it's an uncertainty built around known conditions and
requirements. No secrets.

Commercial air does a lousy job of letting the cargo know what's going on
and when.

Similarly, if a GA flight is delayed, the crew and passengers aren't
stuck
in a tin can waiting for some unknown period of time in a parking area
somewhere on the airport.

Yes, delays occur. But they're more painful on commercial flights.

- Andrew<<

Yeah. Being in control is definitely a plus. Once those airlines
gotcha..... I have had several flights cancelled due to "mechanical
problems:" airline speak for underbooked flight so they can put you on
the next one.

Still think that VFR ticket is only for fun though, or for people who
travel for pleasure and have very flexible schedules. Can't rely on the
VFR only ticket to make business meetings.

[Skylune]

>>by George Patterson > Jan 10, 2006 at 10:50 PM


Skylune wrote:

> Forced?

You said you were annoyed that she hung up and that there "should be a
law."
Again. There should be a law to force people to listen to your drivel?
That
appears to be what you propose.<<

There should be no law to force anyone to listen to my rants. There.

[Jose]

> Still think that VFR ticket is only for fun though, or for people who
> travel for pleasure and have very flexible schedules. Can't rely on the
> VFR only ticket to make business meetings.

Depends where you live. Certainly true in the Northeast (and in winter
IFR is dicey). Arizona is a different story - do they even =have=
flight instruments out there? :)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sylvain]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Yes, delays occur. But they're more painful on commercial flights.

you also forgot to mention airline 'features' that are missing
from GA flights:

- lost / damaged / stolen luggages;
- overbooking;
- being treated like a criminal by 'security' personnel;
- increasing odds of being shot by trigger happy yet
unaccountable 'air marshals';
- etc.

--Sylvain

[George Patterson]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Another factor is uncertainty.

True. If weather had gone down for my flight, I would have had to cancel. Since
I would've known this several hours before the flight (if not a day or two
before), there would've been no inconvenience; we just would've missed the party.

If the weather at Newark were a problem, my Delta flight would probably have
been waiting in the departure line for about an hour (that's usually what
happens for a morning flight when they have to increase spacing). Bad weather in
Atlanta might even delay landing enough for me to miss the connection to
Knoxville, and there aren't many flights between ATL and TYS every day. Weather
rarely gets bad enough to keep Delta from landing at K-town, though.

In any case, IME, passengers never get told about problems until it's too late
for them to do anything but suffer through them (which I believe was your point).

I even had one case in which high headwinds caused United to cancel the last
return flight from Knoxville. They ran the aircraft back & forth between TYS and
Dulles as a shuttle at that time, and each flight got a little later. A late
departure would've been tolerable. Instead, United kept us all waiting,
periodically pushing the departure time out, until about 45 minutes *after* the
plane was supposed to have left. *Then* they announced the flight was canceled.
That is (and will probably remain) the last time I flew United. Fortunately,
they made that announcement 5 minutes *before* the last Delta flight out, so I
didn't have to call my mother to come pick us back up.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Skylune" > wrote

> I have had several flights cancelled due to "mechanical
> problems:" airline speak for underbooked flight so they can put you on
> the next one.
>

You are a parinoid little twit aren't you?

[Skylune]

>>by "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> Jan 12, 2006 at 08:31 AM


"Skylune" > wrote

> I have had several flights cancelled due to "mechanical
> problems:" airline speak for underbooked flight so they can put you on
> the next one.
>

You are a parinoid little twit aren't you?<<

Wow. You could be questioning Judge Alito with a rhetorical question like
that. I'll ask you a question, please answer yes or no: Will you begin
flying responsibly?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
>>>by "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> Jan 12, 2006 at 08:31 AM
>
>
> "Skylune" > wrote
>
>> I have had several flights cancelled due to "mechanical
>> problems:" airline speak for underbooked flight so they can put you on
>> the next one.
>>
>
> You are a parinoid little twit aren't you?<<
>
> Wow. You could be questioning Judge Alito with a rhetorical question like
> that. I'll ask you a question, please answer yes or no: Will you begin
> flying responsibly?
>
>
>

Don't have to start always have.

[Dave Stadt]

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
>>>by Andrew Gideon <ag7337@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Jan 11, 2006 at 12:56 PM
>
>
> George Patterson wrote:
>
>> Since there were two of us, it was much cheaper to fly the Maule down
> than
>> pay Delta.
>>
>
> Another factor is uncertainty. If a GA flight is delayed, there's no
> hiding
> of the expected delay. The delay itself may be uncertain (ie. due to
> weather), but it's an uncertainty built around known conditions and
> requirements. No secrets.
>
> Commercial air does a lousy job of letting the cargo know what's going on
> and when.
>
> Similarly, if a GA flight is delayed, the crew and passengers aren't
> stuck
> in a tin can waiting for some unknown period of time in a parking area
> somewhere on the airport.
>
> Yes, delays occur. But they're more painful on commercial flights.
>
> - Andrew<<
>
> Yeah. Being in control is definitely a plus. Once those airlines
> gotcha..... I have had several flights cancelled due to "mechanical
> problems:" airline speak for underbooked flight so they can put you on
> the next one.
>
> Still think that VFR ticket is only for fun though, or for people who
> travel for pleasure and have very flexible schedules. Can't rely on the
> VFR only ticket to make business meetings.

Nor can you rely on the airlines to get you to a business meeting. They
have more excuses then Carter has liver pills and seemingly have no desire
to tell the cattle the truth. Boy do I have stories.

[Morgans]

>> I have had several flights cancelled due to "mechanical
>> problems:" airline speak for underbooked flight so they can put you on
>> the next one.
>>
>
> You are a parinoid little twit aren't you?

PLEASE don't tell me that you are just *now* starting to realize that! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote

> Nor can you rely on the airlines to get you to a business meeting. They
> have more excuses then Carter has liver pills and seemingly have no desire
> to tell the cattle the truth. Boy do I have stories.

The odds of being held up with a VFR ticket *have* to be greatly different
based on the time of the year, and the area of the country, right?
--
Jim in NC

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote
>
>> Nor can you rely on the airlines to get you to a business meeting. They
>> have more excuses then Carter has liver pills and seemingly have no
>> desire to tell the cattle the truth. Boy do I have stories.
>
> The odds of being held up with a VFR ticket *have* to be greatly different
> based on the time of the year, and the area of the country, right?
> --
> Jim in NC

Way too many variables. In my experience flying VFR has about the same
chance of getting through as flying United.