Round Engines

[Big John]

Found this and thought it might be of interest to all here :o)

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````


DEDICATED TO ALL THOSE WHO FLEW BEHIND ROUND
AIRCRAFT ENGINES


We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining
aviation and our hearing...

A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery.
The air travels through it in a straight line and
doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of
engine oil or pilot sweat.

Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a
switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to
move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder
to start.

Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and
style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's
like waking up a horny mistress. On some planes, the
pilots aren't even allowed to do it...

Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a
lady-like poof and start whining a little louder.

Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle,
click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big
macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and
finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that.
It's a GUY thing...

When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged
and you can concentrate on the flight ahead.
Starting a turbine is like flicking of a ceiling
fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting.

When you have started his round engine successfully
your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you
kiss his girl, too!

Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough,
which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and
inattention. A round engine at speed looks and
sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This
helps concentrate the mind !

Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges
to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to
fiddle with during long flights.

Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman
Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended
machines to smell.

Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or
anyone who flew them, ever) in remembrance of that
"Greatest Generation".

[Dudley Henriques]

There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew round engines
for any length of time. You could be a 2800 guy, or you could be a 6150 guy
if you had R2800 and 3350 time. The REALLY "hot" guys were the 10510 guys.
They had flown the 2800, the 3350, AND the 4360's.
If you could START a 4360, you got honorable mention :-)))))
Dudley Henriques


"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Found this and thought it might be of interest to all here :o)
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````
>
>
> DEDICATED TO ALL THOSE WHO FLEW BEHIND ROUND
> AIRCRAFT ENGINES
>
>
> We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining
> aviation and our hearing...
>
> A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery.
> The air travels through it in a straight line and
> doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of
> engine oil or pilot sweat.
>
> Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a
> switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to
> move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder
> to start.
>
> Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and
> style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's
> like waking up a horny mistress. On some planes, the
> pilots aren't even allowed to do it...
>
> Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a
> lady-like poof and start whining a little louder.
>
> Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle,
> click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big
> macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and
> finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that.
> It's a GUY thing...
>
> When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged
> and you can concentrate on the flight ahead.
> Starting a turbine is like flicking of a ceiling
> fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting.
>
> When you have started his round engine successfully
> your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you
> kiss his girl, too!
>
> Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough,
> which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and
> inattention. A round engine at speed looks and
> sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This
> helps concentrate the mind !
>
> Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges
> to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to
> fiddle with during long flights.
>
> Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman
> Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended
> machines to smell.
>
> Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or
> anyone who flew them, ever) in remembrance of that
> "Greatest Generation".
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Big John]

Dudley

Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)

The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).

Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
for those who haven't heard one start and run.

Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.


Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````


On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:29:08 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew round engines
>for any length of time. You could be a 2800 guy, or you could be a 6150 guy
>if you had R2800 and 3350 time. The REALLY "hot" guys were the 10510 guys.
>They had flown the 2800, the 3350, AND the 4360's.
>If you could START a 4360, you got honorable mention :-)))))
>Dudley Henriques
>
>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Found this and thought it might be of interest to all here :o)
>>
>> Big John
>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````
>>
>>
>> DEDICATED TO ALL THOSE WHO FLEW BEHIND ROUND
>> AIRCRAFT ENGINES
>>
>>
>> We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining
>> aviation and our hearing...
>>
>> A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery.
>> The air travels through it in a straight line and
>> doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of
>> engine oil or pilot sweat.
>>
>> Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a
>> switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to
>> move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder
>> to start.
>>
>> Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and
>> style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's
>> like waking up a horny mistress. On some planes, the
>> pilots aren't even allowed to do it...
>>
>> Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a
>> lady-like poof and start whining a little louder.
>>
>> Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle,
>> click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big
>> macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and
>> finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that.
>> It's a GUY thing...
>>
>> When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged
>> and you can concentrate on the flight ahead.
>> Starting a turbine is like flicking of a ceiling
>> fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting.
>>
>> When you have started his round engine successfully
>> your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you
>> kiss his girl, too!
>>
>> Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough,
>> which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and
>> inattention. A round engine at speed looks and
>> sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This
>> helps concentrate the mind !
>>
>> Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges
>> to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to
>> fiddle with during long flights.
>>
>> Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman
>> Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended
>> machines to smell.
>>
>> Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or
>> anyone who flew them, ever) in remembrance of that
>> "Greatest Generation".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Bob Moore]

"Dudley Henriques" >wrote
> There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew
> round engines for any length of time.

I'm a 5170 guy. R-1820 S-2F, R-3350 P-2V

Bob Moore

[Dudley Henriques]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley
>
> Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>
> The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>
> Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
> for those who haven't heard one start and run.
>
> Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.
>
>
> Big John

I have a few hours in the Jug (N) and some time in the Bearcat. Preferred
the 51 for show work, but the cat was a real ride coming off the deck with
some excess power to convert :-))
Never flew the 4360, but I had a friend who had one in his Corsair. He used
to laugh like hell when he told me that it sometimes took him more time to
get it started than it did to make the flight he started it for.
I've always wondered what the hell everybody thought was so damn hard about
flying the jets. That little list of humor you posted is just about right
on.
In the T38, you climb in; push the start buttons and watch the temps rise,
then you point it where you want it to go and hang on. (of course it helps
if you actually HAVE it pointed where you want it to go when you hit the
burners :-).
You can fly the T38 all day long without touching the rudder pedals, and
that includes aerobatics!!
It's great to be able to look back on all that fun. :-)))
Dudley

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> "Dudley Henriques" >wrote
>> There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew
>> round engines for any length of time.
>
> I'm a 5170 guy. R-1820 S-2F, R-3350 P-2V
>
> Bob Moore

The Navy put all the smarter people in Vikings and Neptunes.
All the fighter pilots mothers' told them never to hang out or to drink with
you people. It was possible that the smartness could rub off and if that
happened, they could lose their fighter slot and get themselves transferred
up to a multi-engine outfit !!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques

[Bob Moore]

"Dudley Henriques" >wrote

> The Navy put all the smarter people in Vikings and Neptunes.

How about "Trackers" and Neptunes? :-)

Bob

[George Patterson]

Big John wrote:

> Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a
> lady-like poof and start whining a little louder.

Sounds like my first wife. :-)

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[George Patterson]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> If you could START a 4360, you got honorable mention :-)))))

Try starting a rotary radial.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
21...
> "Dudley Henriques" >wrote
>
>> The Navy put all the smarter people in Vikings and Neptunes.
>
> How about "Trackers" and Neptunes? :-)
>
> Bob

"Ouch" (seeks recovery from senior moment misplaced Viking ID suitable to
appease the people at Grumman without ****ing off the people at Lockheed,
while at the same time maintaining the delicate balance between the high
intelligence of the large airplane driver and mother's advice not to appear
all THAT smart while digitally sharing a drink at the digital O Club bar
with a large airplane Naval Aviator"

"See!!!! I was right......I TOLD you the smart guys went to the multi
community!!!"
:-))))))
Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:TRRzf.44626$he.23465@trnddc03...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> If you could START a 4360, you got honorable mention :-)))))
>
> Try starting a rotary radial.

Are you kidding George? The airplanes these things were attached to required
REAL pilots!!!
:-)))
Dudley

[George Patterson]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> Are you kidding George?

A saw some guys try to start a Camel once at Rhinebeck. They went through the
rigamarole of pulling it through and then Hercules (we'll call him) started
flipping the prop. It wouldn't even backfire. The poor guy rocked that prop
through about 20 times or so.

When he was worn out, another fellow came up to try his luck. He rocked up on
one leg and whipped the prop down and the engine fired right up. Hercules was
ready to beat the guy to death!

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Dudley Henriques]

The old days at Rhinebeck when the Cole Palen crowd were there are
remembered by many who frequented the place. The nostalgia of that operation
during those days ranks right up there with Pancho's out at Edwards. Both
places bring back some of the finest "just hanging out" moments in aviation
history in the United States.
I seem to remember some trouble going on there a few years back concerning
the running of the operation by a new board of directors at the museum but I
don't have a real handle on what it was all about.
Propping a Le' Rhone might have been a job for Arnold Swartzenegger at that
:-)))
Dudley

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:TISzf.1495$id.1100@trnddc04...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> Are you kidding George?
>
> A saw some guys try to start a Camel once at Rhinebeck. They went through
> the rigamarole of pulling it through and then Hercules (we'll call him)
> started flipping the prop. It wouldn't even backfire. The poor guy rocked
> that prop through about 20 times or so.
>
> When he was worn out, another fellow came up to try his luck. He rocked up
> on one leg and whipped the prop down and the engine fired right up.
> Hercules was ready to beat the guy to death!
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[Dave Stadt]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> The old days at Rhinebeck when the Cole Palen crowd were there are
> remembered by many who frequented the place. The nostalgia of that
> operation during those days ranks right up there with Pancho's out at
> Edwards. Both places bring back some of the finest "just hanging out"
> moments in aviation history in the United States.
> I seem to remember some trouble going on there a few years back concerning
> the running of the operation by a new board of directors at the museum but
> I don't have a real handle on what it was all about.
> Propping a Le' Rhone might have been a job for Arnold Swartzenegger at
> that :-)))
> Dudley

The new board wanted to close Rhinebeck and sell the land, the planes and
anything else worth a nickel. Not sure what changed their minds. Could be
Cole came back for a 'visit' and set them straight.

>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:TISzf.1495$id.1100@trnddc04...
>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>
>>> Are you kidding George?
>>
>> A saw some guys try to start a Camel once at Rhinebeck. They went through
>> the rigamarole of pulling it through and then Hercules (we'll call him)
>> started flipping the prop. It wouldn't even backfire. The poor guy rocked
>> that prop through about 20 times or so.
>>
>> When he was worn out, another fellow came up to try his luck. He rocked
>> up on one leg and whipped the prop down and the engine fired right up.
>> Hercules was ready to beat the guy to death!
>>
>> George Patterson
>> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
>> to
>> your slightly older self.
>
>

[pittss1c]

I have to admit, I was nearly furious the first time I got in the front seat
of a T-6.
I had the proceedures down, I pumped then primed and left it unlocked, got
my mixture forward counted 6 blades, hit the mags, and immeditately got
ready to start futzing with the primer to keep her beltching til it was
running.

Damn it!
When I threw the mag switch, the stupid thing was running fine. I didn't
have to do anything. (I blame the guy who warmed it up before I arrived)
I was so mad, I almost didn't want to fly it anymore. Definately wasn't
woorth the cash without a spectacular radialish start.

Mike

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Found this and thought it might be of interest to all here :o)
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````
>
>
> DEDICATED TO ALL THOSE WHO FLEW BEHIND ROUND
> AIRCRAFT ENGINES
>
>
> We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining
> aviation and our hearing...
>
> A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery.
> The air travels through it in a straight line and
> doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of
> engine oil or pilot sweat.
>
> Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a
> switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to
> move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder
> to start.
>
> Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and
> style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's
> like waking up a horny mistress. On some planes, the
> pilots aren't even allowed to do it...
>
> Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a
> lady-like poof and start whining a little louder.
>
> Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle,
> click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big
> macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and
> finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that.
> It's a GUY thing...
>
> When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged
> and you can concentrate on the flight ahead.
> Starting a turbine is like flicking of a ceiling
> fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting.
>
> When you have started his round engine successfully
> your Crew Chief looks up at you like he'd let you
> kiss his girl, too!
>
> Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough,
> which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and
> inattention. A round engine at speed looks and
> sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This
> helps concentrate the mind !
>
> Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges
> to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to
> fiddle with during long flights.
>
> Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman
> Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended
> machines to smell.
>
> Pass this on to an old WWII guy (or his son, or
> anyone who flew them, ever) in remembrance of that
> "Greatest Generation".
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> The old days at Rhinebeck when the Cole Palen crowd were there are
>> remembered by many who frequented the place. The nostalgia of that
>> operation during those days ranks right up there with Pancho's out at
>> Edwards. Both places bring back some of the finest "just hanging out"
>> moments in aviation history in the United States.
>> I seem to remember some trouble going on there a few years back
>> concerning the running of the operation by a new board of directors at
>> the museum but I don't have a real handle on what it was all about.
>> Propping a Le' Rhone might have been a job for Arnold Swartzenegger at
>> that :-)))
>> Dudley
>
> The new board wanted to close Rhinebeck and sell the land, the planes and
> anything else worth a nickel. Not sure what changed their minds. Could
> be Cole came back for a 'visit' and set them straight.

I hope so. The place deserves some good treatment.
Wish the same held true for Pancho's. Last I heard of that it was a burned
out ruin sitting out there in the desert. I walked through what was left of
it once. It wasn't pretty.
Of course there's no real reason to preserve it. It would never be a tourist
attraction way out there, and the place was really only special to those who
went there during the early testing days at Edwards. If only those burned
out ruins could talk, a lot of history might become clear from what passed
back and forth at the bar the week before Yeager's trip through mach 1.
They ought to build a monument right in the middle of what's left of the bar
to George Welch. :-)
Dudley Henriques

[Marty]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Found this and thought it might be of interest to all here :o)
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````

> Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle,
> click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big
> macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and
> finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that.
> It's a GUY thing...
>

Hmmm, makes me want to get out the "Catch 22" tape & watch the opening
scenes.

Best part of the whole movie ;-)

Marty

[vincent p. norris]

>There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew round engines
>for any length of time.

5600-- two 2800s, one on each side.

Of course, my hearing has been defective ever since and now it's
getting worse.

vince norris

[Dudley Henriques]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew round engines
>>for any length of time.
>
> 5600-- two 2800s, one on each side.
>
> Of course, my hearing has been defective ever since and now it's
> getting worse.
>
> vince norris

Sorry to hear that! (no pun intended :-)

How've you been stranger? Good to see you again. Looks like Paterno and the
boys did us all proud again this season.
My hearing suffered a bit from the Mustang. Strangely enough, the big
radials always seemed a lot smoother on the ears to me.
The stacks on the 51 are just about in line with your ears and it gets damn
noisy in there. Used to put cotton in my ears. In the Mustang, trying to
talk to ATC with anything over 45 inches going up front usually required at
least one come back per transmission. Finally got a Telex combo and could
actually hear a few words from the friendlies on the ground during climbouts
:-)
All the best,
Dudley Henriques

[Montblack]

("George Patterson" wrote)
>> Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a lady-like poof and
>> start whining a little louder.

> Sounds like my first wife. :-)


"It was so cold this morning..."

"How cold was it?"

"It was so cold, I had to jump the wife to get her started." :-)


Montblack

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote \
>
> "It was so cold this morning..."
>
> "How cold was it?"
>
> "It was so cold, I had to jump the wife to get her started." :-)

When it is that cold, the jumper cable gets so short that you have to warm
it up good, just to reach, don't you? <ducking>
--
Jim in NC

[Big John]

Dudley

One story on Pancho.

Edwards wanted to either extend or build a new runway that would run
through her "establishment".

After going round and round with them she went to Washington and
talked to some of her old time cohorts there and that was the last
ever heard about tearing her place down for a new runway :o)

The Washington types she talked to were Lts and Captains when she
associated with them in the early days.

Sometimes it's all who you know.

Last time I was there was eating a steak and talking to Pancho when
half a dozen broads made up like Hollywood Starlets walked through the
room.

I ask what they were doing and was told to mind my own business :o)

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:14:11 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
t...
>>
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>> The old days at Rhinebeck when the Cole Palen crowd were there are
>>> remembered by many who frequented the place. The nostalgia of that
>>> operation during those days ranks right up there with Pancho's out at
>>> Edwards. Both places bring back some of the finest "just hanging out"
>>> moments in aviation history in the United States.
>>> I seem to remember some trouble going on there a few years back
>>> concerning the running of the operation by a new board of directors at
>>> the museum but I don't have a real handle on what it was all about.
>>> Propping a Le' Rhone might have been a job for Arnold Swartzenegger at
>>> that :-)))
>>> Dudley
>>
>> The new board wanted to close Rhinebeck and sell the land, the planes and
>> anything else worth a nickel. Not sure what changed their minds. Could
>> be Cole came back for a 'visit' and set them straight.
>
>I hope so. The place deserves some good treatment.
>Wish the same held true for Pancho's. Last I heard of that it was a burned
>out ruin sitting out there in the desert. I walked through what was left of
>it once. It wasn't pretty.
>Of course there's no real reason to preserve it. It would never be a tourist
>attraction way out there, and the place was really only special to those who
>went there during the early testing days at Edwards. If only those burned
>out ruins could talk, a lot of history might become clear from what passed
>back and forth at the bar the week before Yeager's trip through mach 1.
>They ought to build a monument right in the middle of what's left of the bar
>to George Welch. :-)
>Dudley Henriques
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley
>
> One story on Pancho.
>
> Edwards wanted to either extend or build a new runway that would run
> through her "establishment".
>
> After going round and round with them she went to Washington and
> talked to some of her old time cohorts there and that was the last
> ever heard about tearing her place down for a new runway :o)
>
> The Washington types she talked to were Lts and Captains when she
> associated with them in the early days.
>
> Sometimes it's all who you know.
>
> Last time I was there was eating a steak and talking to Pancho when
> half a dozen broads made up like Hollywood Starlets walked through the
> room.
>
> I ask what they were doing and was told to mind my own business :o)
>
> Big John

The story we got was that the powers that be at Edwards who took over after
the "old guys" were gone really did a number on her when the extension deal
was going on. The word was that the "fire" was very suspicious to say the
least.
I think Pancho kind of faded away after that and I heard she had moved out
into the desert up North a bit. The last I heard she had died all alone up
there living in a trailer.
I think Yeager and Hoover and some of the regulars kept in touch with her
for awhile .
Pancho's place was a real part of American aviation history. It's a damn
shame nobody tried to save at least part of it for posterity.
The problem with places like Pancho's is that their real value was in their
existence and in what that meant to the people who gathered there.
To those who survived those early days at Edwards, I'm sure the ghosts of
those people remain even to this day.
The average tourist wouldn't be able to "touch" this nostalgia, or
appreciate the memories of a place like Pancho's. Only those who lived
through those times and knew first hand what transpired there would have any
real appreciation for the site.
I remember places like Pancho's as special to me as I made my way through my
aviation career.
There was Trader Jon's in Pensacola for one.There's was a picture of Skip
Umstead and me tacked to the wall in back of the bar Skip was Blue Angel 1
in the old F4's and was killed at Lakehurst I was driving there to have
lunch with him and heard about the crash on the car radio. I know Bob Stumph
and a few of the Blue Angels tried to save the place, but it all came apart
somewhere along the line. It's a clothing store now. Sign of the passing
times I guess :-)) My picture from the bar is probably gathering dust with
the other artifacts from the old place waiting to be put into a Naval
aviation museum.
There was the Belvedere Hotel and Bar across the street from the main gate
at Pax River where we would meet and raise hell.
Many are gone now, but I can still see their faces and hear their laughter
once in a while in my fondest memories.
I guess it's this kind of thing that makes Pancho's so special.
There's something in Latin that sums it all up I guess;
"Sic Transit Gloria Mundi"
Dudley

[vincent p. norris]

>How've you been stranger? Good to see you again.

I've been fine. And you?

>Looks like Paterno and the boys did us all proud again this season.

Yeah, they done good! Only one play from an unbeaten season.
And most of them can read and write, too!

What I admire most about Joe is that he insists his players be
students first. In 34 years of teaching at Penn State, I gave at
least half a dozen of his players Ds or Fs. Never heard one peep out
of Joe, or anyone else.

vince norris

[Dudley Henriques]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >How've you been stranger? Good to see you again.
>
> I've been fine. And you?

I'm hanging in there. Had major spinal surgery last September and recovering
ok so far.
>
>>Looks like Paterno and the boys did us all proud again this season.
>
> Yeah, they done good! Only one play from an unbeaten season.
> And most of them can read and write, too!
:-)

>
> What I admire most about Joe is that he insists his players be
> students first. In 34 years of teaching at Penn State, I gave at
> least half a dozen of his players Ds or Fs. Never heard one peep out
> of Joe, or anyone else.

I agree completely. Paterno has given his players much more than football.
He's inspired them to achieve in the classroom as well as on the field and
the result has been to give them life after football.
It's ironic that someday, when people speak about Paterno, the general
consensus will most likely be that Paterno's greatest contribution in life
wasn't football at all, but his philosophy on life and how that played into
the lives of those who were lucky enough to have played under him at Penn
State.
Dudley

[Big John]

Dudley

It's a shame we don't put more effort in saving some of the historical
places. Briton and some others put time and money in saving their
history for future generations. Makes me ashamed.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:32:17 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Dudley
>>
>> One story on Pancho.
>>
>> Edwards wanted to either extend or build a new runway that would run
>> through her "establishment".
>>
>> After going round and round with them she went to Washington and
>> talked to some of her old time cohorts there and that was the last
>> ever heard about tearing her place down for a new runway :o)
>>
>> The Washington types she talked to were Lts and Captains when she
>> associated with them in the early days.
>>
>> Sometimes it's all who you know.
>>
>> Last time I was there was eating a steak and talking to Pancho when
>> half a dozen broads made up like Hollywood Starlets walked through the
>> room.
>>
>> I ask what they were doing and was told to mind my own business :o)
>>
>> Big John
>
>The story we got was that the powers that be at Edwards who took over after
>the "old guys" were gone really did a number on her when the extension deal
>was going on. The word was that the "fire" was very suspicious to say the
>least.
>I think Pancho kind of faded away after that and I heard she had moved out
>into the desert up North a bit. The last I heard she had died all alone up
>there living in a trailer.
>I think Yeager and Hoover and some of the regulars kept in touch with her
>for awhile .
>Pancho's place was a real part of American aviation history. It's a damn
>shame nobody tried to save at least part of it for posterity.
>The problem with places like Pancho's is that their real value was in their
>existence and in what that meant to the people who gathered there.
>To those who survived those early days at Edwards, I'm sure the ghosts of
>those people remain even to this day.
>The average tourist wouldn't be able to "touch" this nostalgia, or
>appreciate the memories of a place like Pancho's. Only those who lived
>through those times and knew first hand what transpired there would have any
>real appreciation for the site.
>I remember places like Pancho's as special to me as I made my way through my
>aviation career.
>There was Trader Jon's in Pensacola for one.There's was a picture of Skip
>Umstead and me tacked to the wall in back of the bar Skip was Blue Angel 1
>in the old F4's and was killed at Lakehurst I was driving there to have
>lunch with him and heard about the crash on the car radio. I know Bob Stumph
>and a few of the Blue Angels tried to save the place, but it all came apart
>somewhere along the line. It's a clothing store now. Sign of the passing
>times I guess :-)) My picture from the bar is probably gathering dust with
>the other artifacts from the old place waiting to be put into a Naval
>aviation museum.
>There was the Belvedere Hotel and Bar across the street from the main gate
>at Pax River where we would meet and raise hell.
>Many are gone now, but I can still see their faces and hear their laughter
>once in a while in my fondest memories.
>I guess it's this kind of thing that makes Pancho's so special.
>There's something in Latin that sums it all up I guess;
>"Sic Transit Gloria Mundi"
>Dudley
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> Dudley
>
> It's a shame we don't put more effort in saving some of the historical
> places. Briton and some others put time and money in saving their
> history for future generations. Makes me ashamed.
>
> Big John

Yeah..it's a shame really. Of course the Brits actually fought their war
right over their heads. The people had, and still have such a high regard
for what happened during the BOB that they are more than willing to support
the historical effort to save the artifacts from the period.
It seems that in our country, a lot of the time developers and politicians
enter into the equation and the artifact goes into a museum while the real
estate where it all happened somehow magically turns into a shopping mall.
Of course there are exceptions although many times it's the work of private
donors that save a location of historical value to aviation.
Dudley

[Jim Macklin]

Too many fine airplanes were buried in the sand or dumped
in the ocean. And a lot became beer cans.

If you are in Kansas, go to Hutchinson (HUT) and get a ride
to the Cosmosphere, and you can touch an SR-71 and see a lot
of real space ships.
But if it wasn't for a few rich pilots, you'd never see a
P51 or F86 and the CAF keeps a nice flying history lesson
with FiFi and some other airplanes that were not destroyed
by the Pentagon. Congress keeps passing laws that make
recovery of old warbirds difficult or impossible.

The EAA and Warbirds of America report on this "arms
control."


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in
message
nk.net...
|
| "Big John" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > Dudley
| >
| > It's a shame we don't put more effort in saving some of
the historical
| > places. Briton and some others put time and money in
saving their
| > history for future generations. Makes me ashamed.
| >
| > Big John
|
| Yeah..it's a shame really. Of course the Brits actually
fought their war
| right over their heads. The people had, and still have
such a high regard
| for what happened during the BOB that they are more than
willing to support
| the historical effort to save the artifacts from the
period.
| It seems that in our country, a lot of the time developers
and politicians
| enter into the equation and the artifact goes into a
museum while the real
| estate where it all happened somehow magically turns into
a shopping mall.
| Of course there are exceptions although many times it's
the work of private
| donors that save a location of historical value to
aviation.
| Dudley
|
|

[Bob Moore]

vincent p. norris >wrote

> What I admire most about Joe is that he insists his players be
> students first.

As opposed to Florida State where Bobby Bowden seems to prefer
players with police records. :-(

> In 34 years of teaching at Penn State, I gave
> at least half a dozen of his players Ds or Fs.

What did you teach Vince?

Bob Moore

[Matt Whiting]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> "Big John" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Dudley
>>
>>It's a shame we don't put more effort in saving some of the historical
>>places. Briton and some others put time and money in saving their
>>history for future generations. Makes me ashamed.
>>
>>Big John
>
>
> Yeah..it's a shame really. Of course the Brits actually fought their war
> right over their heads. The people had, and still have such a high regard
> for what happened during the BOB that they are more than willing to support
> the historical effort to save the artifacts from the period.
> It seems that in our country, a lot of the time developers and politicians
> enter into the equation and the artifact goes into a museum while the real
> estate where it all happened somehow magically turns into a shopping mall.
> Of course there are exceptions although many times it's the work of private
> donors that save a location of historical value to aviation.
> Dudley

And with fewer people alive who have any first-hand recollection of WW
II, it will only get worse. Most developers in action today don't
remember the Korean war let alone WW II. What is that old saying about
those who fail to remember history...


Matt

[Dudley Henriques]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> "Big John" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Dudley
>>>
>>>It's a shame we don't put more effort in saving some of the historical
>>>places. Briton and some others put time and money in saving their
>>>history for future generations. Makes me ashamed.
>>>
>>>Big John
>>
>>
>> Yeah..it's a shame really. Of course the Brits actually fought their war
>> right over their heads. The people had, and still have such a high regard
>> for what happened during the BOB that they are more than willing to
>> support the historical effort to save the artifacts from the period.
>> It seems that in our country, a lot of the time developers and
>> politicians enter into the equation and the artifact goes into a museum
>> while the real estate where it all happened somehow magically turns into
>> a shopping mall.
>> Of course there are exceptions although many times it's the work of
>> private donors that save a location of historical value to aviation.
>> Dudley
>
> And with fewer people alive who have any first-hand recollection of WW II,
> it will only get worse. Most developers in action today don't remember
> the Korean war let alone WW II. What is that old saying about those who
> fail to remember history...
>
>
> Matt

"For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed
the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came
trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories,
together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The
conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in
chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in
the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror
holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory
is fleeting."
- Gen. George C. Patton

Dudley Henriques

[Morgans]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote

> I'm hanging in there. Had major spinal surgery last September and
> recovering ok so far.

Damn, I've been there, done that. Two surgeries, now I've had L4-5 fused,
and still no better. What kind did you have?
--
Jim in NC

[Dudley Henriques]

6 level Lumbar. 8 hours on the table. Seems to be healing ok.
D

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>
>> I'm hanging in there. Had major spinal surgery last September and
>> recovering ok so far.
>
> Damn, I've been there, done that. Two surgeries, now I've had L4-5 fused,
> and still no better. What kind did you have?
> --
> Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>
>> I'm hanging in there. Had major spinal surgery last September and
>> recovering ok so far.
>
>
> Damn, I've been there, done that. Two surgeries, now I've had L4-5
> fused, and still no better. What kind did you have?

Have either of you looked into the new replacement disks that are now in
medical trials? I have several degenerated disks that I'm simply living
with so far and keeping at bay with exercise (I've forgotten what it is
like to be pain free) as I really don't want to lose mobility which
occurs with a fusion procedure.

I've been casually following these devices a hoping they become
mainstream before I can't take it any longer and have to do something.

Matt

[Dudley Henriques]

My advice on this is not to concentrate on any devices being developed and
instead align yourself with the best neurosurgeon you can find. That surgeon
will have you get a current cat scan of your spine and diagnose an EXACT
PROCEDURE based on what is indicated by the scan.
There is no one procedure for a spinal problem. Studying new devices is
worthless without that scan being in the equation.
Best of luck with this. I know what you are going through, believe me.
Dudley

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>>
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>>
>>> I'm hanging in there. Had major spinal surgery last September and
>>> recovering ok so far.
>>
>>
>> Damn, I've been there, done that. Two surgeries, now I've had L4-5
>> fused, and still no better. What kind did you have?
>
> Have either of you looked into the new replacement disks that are now in
> medical trials? I have several degenerated disks that I'm simply living
> with so far and keeping at bay with exercise (I've forgotten what it is
> like to be pain free) as I really don't want to lose mobility which occurs
> with a fusion procedure.
>
> I've been casually following these devices a hoping they become mainstream
> before I can't take it any longer and have to do something.
>
> Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> My advice on this is not to concentrate on any devices being developed and
> instead align yourself with the best neurosurgeon you can find. That surgeon
> will have you get a current cat scan of your spine and diagnose an EXACT
> PROCEDURE based on what is indicated by the scan.
> There is no one procedure for a spinal problem. Studying new devices is
> worthless without that scan being in the equation.
> Best of luck with this. I know what you are going through, believe me.

I went through all of this when the problem first arose 9 years ago (I
was 37 then, 46 now). I visited several othopedic and neurosurgeons
(two of each). Had both CAT and MRI.

I have 4 disks that are nearly gone. It is very easy to see on the CAT
scan. The disks are nearly touching each other. They told me they
could operate and scrap out the bulged parts of the disk that was
causing the sciatica and numbness in my foot, but that was a temporary
solution at best. And there was a risk of paralysis or development of
scar tissue that could leave me worse off than when I started. Fusion
was a more permanent option, but that cost me X degrees of mobility with
every disk fused, and I likely would have had to have at least 3 and
possibly 4 done.

They all recommended against surgery until one of these happened:
1. The numbness progressed to more than my toes and top of foot
2. Loss of muscle strength/control occured
3. The pain became unbearable.

Fortunately, 1 and 2 haven't happened yet (I get checked every year) and
I've got a high tolerance for pain so 3 won't occur for a while. I do
the Mckenzie exercises that were recommended and use a lumbar support in
my chairs and this keeps things under control for the most part.

The problem is that the day will come when 1 or 2 above happens and then
"watchful waiting" is no longer an option. I just hope I can have an
option to fusion when the surgery is required. That is why I keep
watching the progress of the artificial disks. If I can hold out 8-10
more years, I think they'll be viable.

Matt

[Dudley Henriques]

It's a tough call I know. It sounds like you have a handle on it. I'd simply
keep a close eye on the situation and make sure you're involved with a good
doctor while you're doing it.
All the best
Dudley
"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> My advice on this is not to concentrate on any devices being developed
>> and instead align yourself with the best neurosurgeon you can find. That
>> surgeon will have you get a current cat scan of your spine and diagnose
>> an EXACT PROCEDURE based on what is indicated by the scan.
>> There is no one procedure for a spinal problem. Studying new devices is
>> worthless without that scan being in the equation.
>> Best of luck with this. I know what you are going through, believe me.
>
> I went through all of this when the problem first arose 9 years ago (I was
> 37 then, 46 now). I visited several othopedic and neurosurgeons (two of
> each). Had both CAT and MRI.
>
> I have 4 disks that are nearly gone. It is very easy to see on the CAT
> scan. The disks are nearly touching each other. They told me they could
> operate and scrap out the bulged parts of the disk that was causing the
> sciatica and numbness in my foot, but that was a temporary solution at
> best. And there was a risk of paralysis or development of scar tissue
> that could leave me worse off than when I started. Fusion was a more
> permanent option, but that cost me X degrees of mobility with every disk
> fused, and I likely would have had to have at least 3 and possibly 4 done.
>
> They all recommended against surgery until one of these happened:
> 1. The numbness progressed to more than my toes and top of foot
> 2. Loss of muscle strength/control occured
> 3. The pain became unbearable.
>
> Fortunately, 1 and 2 haven't happened yet (I get checked every year) and
> I've got a high tolerance for pain so 3 won't occur for a while. I do the
> Mckenzie exercises that were recommended and use a lumbar support in my
> chairs and this keeps things under control for the most part.
>
> The problem is that the day will come when 1 or 2 above happens and then
> "watchful waiting" is no longer an option. I just hope I can have an
> option to fusion when the surgery is required. That is why I keep
> watching the progress of the artificial disks. If I can hold out 8-10
> more years, I think they'll be viable.
>
> Matt

[Big John]

Matt

My son in law (retired Army) is doing the same. From what he says, the
procedure is not tomorrow but on the horizon and if successful will be
a god send to those who suffer.Full flexibility and no pain. As I
understand the procedure, it should pass the FAA medical with flying
colors.

I damaged some disks when I ejected but so far have been able to work
around the pain. At my age it is probable that I will pass before the
back gets so bad I have to do something. Would even consider going on
morphine for the short time I have left vs the operation, if push
comes to shove and I develop chronic heavy pain.I do be careful with
my back however.

All the best.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:01:11 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>Morgans wrote:
>>
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>>
>>> I'm hanging in there. Had major spinal surgery last September and
>>> recovering ok so far.
>>
>>
>> Damn, I've been there, done that. Two surgeries, now I've had L4-5
>> fused, and still no better. What kind did you have?
>
>Have either of you looked into the new replacement disks that are now in
>medical trials? I have several degenerated disks that I'm simply living
>with so far and keeping at bay with exercise (I've forgotten what it is
>like to be pain free) as I really don't want to lose mobility which
>occurs with a fusion procedure.
>
>I've been casually following these devices a hoping they become
>mainstream before I can't take it any longer and have to do something.
>
>Matt

[John Gaquin]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message

> There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew round engines

I guess that'd make me just a 2510. A brace of 1830s on the DC3, and a
little R680 on a Stinson I used to fly. :-)

[Dudley Henriques]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>
>> There's a "nickname number" we gave to those of us who flew round engines
>
> I guess that'd make me just a 2510. A brace of 1830s on the DC3, and a
> little R680 on a Stinson I used to fly. :-)

Ah, the old Lycoming R680. Must have been a Gullwing :-)) Stable as a barn
door on concrete blocks that old bird was. You could fly those old birds
through a Hurricane and just maybe notice the ripple.
:-))
Dudley

[Morgans]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>6 level Lumbar. 8 hours on the table. Seems to be healing ok.
> D

Good for you. That 50% failure got me, so I hope the other half is on your
side. :-)

It will be a year, before you feel close to normal, at 6 months, about 75%,
in my experience.

Good luck. Keep walking and exercising!
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> Have either of you looked into the new replacement disks that are now in
> medical trials? I have several degenerated disks that I'm simply living
> with so far and keeping at bay with exercise (I've forgotten what it is
> like to be pain free) as I really don't want to lose mobility which occurs
> with a fusion procedure.
>
> I've been casually following these devices a hoping they become mainstream
> before I can't take it any longer and have to do something.

Yes, and the candidate field is rather narrow. In my case, I was not a
candidate because of previous traditional surgery. Now, it is fused at that
level, so nothing else can be done, there.

From how it was explained to me, the level that would be replaced has to be
undisturbed by previous surgeries. The surrounding and muscle and
everything has to be strong, because that is all that holds the new disc in
place.

I wish that would have been an option, but it was not around when I had my
first surgery done.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote

> Best of luck with this. I know what you are going through, believe me.
> Dudley

That is right. NO ONE can imagine what back pain *really* is, unless it is
with you 24/7, 365.25.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> They all recommended against surgery until one of these happened:
> 1. The numbness progressed to more than my toes and top of foot
> 2. Loss of muscle strength/control occured
> 3. The pain became unbearable.

There is one thing that they have not told you yet, and if I were you, I
would ask about it.

If you go too long with pain and numbness in your foot, or any other part,
even if the surgery is done and is successful, the pain and numbness can
become a permanent thing. Once nerve damage proceeds to a certain point,
the nerve will not recover, even when the pressure is taken off of it.

That is the situation I am in. There are also other issues with me, though,
and I have been told that I will have to live with it. The doctor will sign
for me to get job and social security disability any time I say I am read.
Right now, I can't afford it. I'm not even 48 yet.
--
Jim in NC

[Dudley Henriques]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>>6 level Lumbar. 8 hours on the table. Seems to be healing ok.
>> D
>
> Good for you. That 50% failure got me, so I hope the other half is on
> your side. :-)
>
> It will be a year, before you feel close to normal, at 6 months, about
> 75%, in my experience.
>
> Good luck. Keep walking and exercising!
> --
> Jim in NC

God, I'm sorry to hear that. They do tell me that the pain can be controlled
with medication. I sincerely hope things get better for you.
Dudley

[Matt Whiting]

Big John wrote:
> Matt
>
> My son in law (retired Army) is doing the same. From what he says, the
> procedure is not tomorrow but on the horizon and if successful will be
> a god send to those who suffer.Full flexibility and no pain. As I
> understand the procedure, it should pass the FAA medical with flying
> colors.
>
> I damaged some disks when I ejected but so far have been able to work
> around the pain. At my age it is probable that I will pass before the
> back gets so bad I have to do something. Would even consider going on
> morphine for the short time I have left vs the operation, if push
> comes to shove and I develop chronic heavy pain.I do be careful with
> my back however.

Just the thought of an e-seat ride makes my back hurt! Glad that you
survived it, that's the important part.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>> Have either of you looked into the new replacement disks that are now
>> in medical trials? I have several degenerated disks that I'm simply
>> living with so far and keeping at bay with exercise (I've forgotten
>> what it is like to be pain free) as I really don't want to lose
>> mobility which occurs with a fusion procedure.
>>
>> I've been casually following these devices a hoping they become
>> mainstream before I can't take it any longer and have to do something.
>
>
> Yes, and the candidate field is rather narrow. In my case, I was not a
> candidate because of previous traditional surgery. Now, it is fused at
> that level, so nothing else can be done, there.

That is my understanding also. That is one of the big reasons I'm
holding out.


> From how it was explained to me, the level that would be replaced has
> to be undisturbed by previous surgeries. The surrounding and muscle and
> everything has to be strong, because that is all that holds the new disc
> in place.

That isn't quite my understanding, but my understanding is admittedly
feeble in this area. What I've read says that they remove the OEM disk
and then cut away part of each surrounding vertebrate. The artificial
disk unit has essentially a partial titanium vertebrate on each side of
the polymer disk. This is glued (maybe also screwed, I don't know) to
the OEM bone vertebrate much the way artificial hips and knees are put
in. In this scenario, I'm not sure why they couldn't break apart a
fused area, but maybe it is simply too aggressive a procedure to do with
the spinal cord in the middle.


> I wish that would have been an option, but it was not around when I had
> my first surgery done.

Well, that is a bummer, but you did what you had to do when you had to
do it. Can't look back.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>
>> Best of luck with this. I know what you are going through, believe me.
>> Dudley
>
>
> That is right. NO ONE can imagine what back pain *really* is, unless it
> is with you 24/7, 365.25.

Yes, only a toothache has bothered me more than the back. I've heard an
injured big toe can be real painful, but I crushed my foot in a logging
accident when I was 18 and that was nothing compared to the back.

But I have had a couple of toothaches that make the back feel downright
pleasant. :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>> They all recommended against surgery until one of these happened:
>> 1. The numbness progressed to more than my toes and top of foot
>> 2. Loss of muscle strength/control occured
>> 3. The pain became unbearable.
>
>
> There is one thing that they have not told you yet, and if I were you, I
> would ask about it.
>
> If you go too long with pain and numbness in your foot, or any other
> part, even if the surgery is done and is successful, the pain and
> numbness can become a permanent thing. Once nerve damage proceeds to a
> certain point, the nerve will not recover, even when the pressure is
> taken off of it.

Actually, they did tell me this. The lucky part is that the sciatica so
far has really only affected my right leg and foot and this is the same
foot I crushed severely in a logging accident many years ago. The foot
has been about 1/2 numb since I was 18, so the little extra numbness
(one toe added to the two that have been numb), really isn't a big deal.
:-)

They did tell me to not let the numbness go any farther than what I'm
willing to live with forever, but thanks for mentioning that.


> That is the situation I am in. There are also other issues with me,
> though, and I have been told that I will have to live with it. The
> doctor will sign for me to get job and social security disability any
> time I say I am read. Right now, I can't afford it. I'm not even 48 yet.

Yes, my doctor hinted at the same thing, but I can't for the same
reason! Also, I really don't think my current job is any worse on my
back than anything I'd do around the house if I was on disability. And
being on disability has its own downdside such as folks who are always
watching you to see if you are a fraud and calling the authorities if
you do anything that looks like it would suggest that you really aren't
disabled.

Plus, I just can't see myself on disability unless I were in a lot worse
shape. I've always been very independent and fiercly self-reliant, so
as long as I can climb out of bed in the morning (or roll out as I do
now!), I plan to keep on working.


Matt

[John Gaquin]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>
> Ah, the old Lycoming R680. Must have been a Gullwing :-))

Actually, it was a Detroiter, an SM8a. But a lovely soft flyer, too. A real
steering wheel, and crank-down windows, too!

[George Patterson]

Morgans wrote:

> If you go too long with pain and numbness in your foot, or any other
> part, even if the surgery is done and is successful, the pain and
> numbness can become a permanent thing.

Thanks for that info. My numbness is erratic, and I can usually hold it at bay
with my exercises. I wondered at times if I was running some risks of damage
elsewhere.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[vincent p. norris]

>What did you teach Vince?

I taught courses on the economics of communications, in the College of
Communications. Occasionally a course for the economics department,
when it was short-handed.

vince norris

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> The artificial disk unit has essentially a partial titanium vertebrate on
> each side of the polymer disk. This is glued (maybe also screwed, I don't
> know) to the OEM bone vertebrate much the way artificial hips and knees
> are put in.

That sounds like a new technology disc, than the ones I looked at a couple
of years ago; they just sat in there, held in by the surrounding soft
tissue. That isn't surprising; medical tech move at a very fast rate.

> In this scenario, I'm not sure why they couldn't break apart a fused area,
> but maybe it is simply too aggressive a procedure to do with the spinal
> cord in the middle.

I would think the amount of bone added in the fusion is the biggest factor.
Basically, all the space that the normal disc occupied, is filled with bone,
now. That would be a lot to remove, especially like you said, right next to
the spinal chord.
--
Jim in NC

[Vince Butkiewicz]

Gentlemen~
Listening to you folks is like reading my diary! Numb right foot with
exteme tingling, pain from the butt to the big toe (but no back pain) and
one surgery that did very little to remedy the situation. The next
recommended step is fusion. I'm not biting! Just missed a segment on TV
describing a non-invasive new treatment for the situation! I haven't found
it yet but will continue to look. Best of luck, Vince

[[email protected]]

I'm just a 3350 guy (AC-119K).

--Walt Weaver
Bozeman, Montana

[Bob Chilcoat]

A few years ago I toured the Garber Facility in DC. They were in the middle
of restoring an original Newport that Cole Palen had donated after using it
for years at Rhinebeck. When they cut off the fabric, the entire tail fell
off! The fabric was all that was keeping it on. Must have been really
interesting there in the early days.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> The old days at Rhinebeck when the Cole Palen crowd were there are
> remembered by many who frequented the place. The nostalgia of that
> operation during those days ranks right up there with Pancho's out at
> Edwards. Both places bring back some of the finest "just hanging out"
> moments in aviation history in the United States.
> I seem to remember some trouble going on there a few years back concerning
> the running of the operation by a new board of directors at the museum but
> I don't have a real handle on what it was all about.
> Propping a Le' Rhone might have been a job for Arnold Swartzenegger at
> that :-)))
> Dudley
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:TISzf.1495$id.1100@trnddc04...
>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>
>>> Are you kidding George?
>>
>> A saw some guys try to start a Camel once at Rhinebeck. They went through
>> the rigamarole of pulling it through and then Hercules (we'll call him)
>> started flipping the prop. It wouldn't even backfire. The poor guy rocked
>> that prop through about 20 times or so.
>>
>> When he was worn out, another fellow came up to try his luck. He rocked
>> up on one leg and whipped the prop down and the engine fired right up.
>> Hercules was ready to beat the guy to death!
>>
>> George Patterson
>> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
>> to
>> your slightly older self.
>
>

[john smith]

In article . com>,
" > wrote:

> I'm just a 3350 guy (AC-119K).

Walt, tell us some stories!

[Big John]

Dudley

Guess you never flew the P-80 A/B?

The boost pump was the main fuel pump from the P-59. Was a monster
that pulled something like 20+ amps.

Once you got an indication of TPT you used both hands and pulled the
throttle back just into edge of idle cut off and then pushed out to
the idle position. This cycling let you keep the TPT from exceeding
limits as engine spooled up to idle. As the RPM rose you reached a
point where the starter dropped out and the TPT kept staying in limits
without cycling the throttle and as RPM stabilized in idle you also
had the idle TPT.

Flying that early small engine (3850 lbs thrust), if you had to go
around in the pattern it took over 20 seconds from idle to full power.
Really had to stay ahead of bird in pattern. Lot of 51/47 jocks
checking out had trouble with this.

Shut down was easy. Let idle for a minute or two to stabilize temps
and then go to idle cut off and clean cockpit up.

At Willie (first jet school) we had the 'Captive Air'. This was a
P-80A mounted on supports (concrete/steel) with gear not touching
ground. This trainer let us put a student in cockpit and standing on
wing talk him through an engine start and simulated flight. (Start
engine and then cycle gear and flaps like would happen on a real
flight.) Last time I was at Willie for a reunion (they then had
T-38's) the Captive Air facility across the field had been torn down
and not saved for posterity :o(

Been a long time since I thought about the early jets. We killed at
least one student a month and a instructor every quarter at Willie
when we started student jet training for Korea.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Dudley
>>
>> Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>>
>> The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>>
>> Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
>> for those who haven't heard one start and run.
>>
>> Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.
>>
>>
>> Big John
>
>I have a few hours in the Jug (N) and some time in the Bearcat. Preferred
>the 51 for show work, but the cat was a real ride coming off the deck with
>some excess power to convert :-))
>Never flew the 4360, but I had a friend who had one in his Corsair. He used
>to laugh like hell when he told me that it sometimes took him more time to
>get it started than it did to make the flight he started it for.
>I've always wondered what the hell everybody thought was so damn hard about
>flying the jets. That little list of humor you posted is just about right
>on.
>In the T38, you climb in; push the start buttons and watch the temps rise,
>then you point it where you want it to go and hang on. (of course it helps
>if you actually HAVE it pointed where you want it to go when you hit the
>burners :-).
>You can fly the T38 all day long without touching the rudder pedals, and
>that includes aerobatics!!
>It's great to be able to look back on all that fun. :-)))
>Dudley
>

[Dudley Henriques]

Hi John;
Never flew the P80, but I remember those early days during the transition
period from props to jets quite well. The loss rates were high as a kite as
you have stated. But I'll bet you'll agree that in spite of it all, Willie
and Luke were the places to be in those days.:-))
Starting those early jets J33's, J47's etc really kept you guys on your toes
balancing throttle and temps. Phrases like "bringing it around the horn" and
"hot start" were quite commonly heard on the flight line back then and
hardly heard any more.
By contrast, the T38 is a "push to start" "go fast" buggy. :-)
Putting a bird on a stand and running it was a great idea, although I
remember the day Scott Crossfield blew the tail off the X15 at Edwards doing
an engine testbed ground test on the XLR99 engine. He said it was quite
funny really.
They put him in the bird and everybody else went into the blockhouse. They
called it "developing the confidence of the pilot" :-) When it blew, the
front half of the airplane actually flew forward off the stand about 20
feet. I always said, Crossfield should have logged the time! :-))
Dudley




"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley
>
> Guess you never flew the P-80 A/B?
>
> The boost pump was the main fuel pump from the P-59. Was a monster
> that pulled something like 20+ amps.
>
> Once you got an indication of TPT you used both hands and pulled the
> throttle back just into edge of idle cut off and then pushed out to
> the idle position. This cycling let you keep the TPT from exceeding
> limits as engine spooled up to idle. As the RPM rose you reached a
> point where the starter dropped out and the TPT kept staying in limits
> without cycling the throttle and as RPM stabilized in idle you also
> had the idle TPT.
>
> Flying that early small engine (3850 lbs thrust), if you had to go
> around in the pattern it took over 20 seconds from idle to full power.
> Really had to stay ahead of bird in pattern. Lot of 51/47 jocks
> checking out had trouble with this.
>
> Shut down was easy. Let idle for a minute or two to stabilize temps
> and then go to idle cut off and clean cockpit up.
>
> At Willie (first jet school) we had the 'Captive Air'. This was a
> P-80A mounted on supports (concrete/steel) with gear not touching
> ground. This trainer let us put a student in cockpit and standing on
> wing talk him through an engine start and simulated flight. (Start
> engine and then cycle gear and flaps like would happen on a real
> flight.) Last time I was at Willie for a reunion (they then had
> T-38's) the Captive Air facility across the field had been torn down
> and not saved for posterity :o(
>
> Been a long time since I thought about the early jets. We killed at
> least one student a month and a instructor every quarter at Willie
> when we started student jet training for Korea.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
>
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>> Dudley
>>>
>>> Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>>>
>>> The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>>>
>>> Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
>>> for those who haven't heard one start and run.
>>>
>>> Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.
>>>
>>>
>>> Big John
>>
>>I have a few hours in the Jug (N) and some time in the Bearcat. Preferred
>>the 51 for show work, but the cat was a real ride coming off the deck with
>>some excess power to convert :-))
>>Never flew the 4360, but I had a friend who had one in his Corsair. He
>>used
>>to laugh like hell when he told me that it sometimes took him more time to
>>get it started than it did to make the flight he started it for.
>>I've always wondered what the hell everybody thought was so damn hard
>>about
>>flying the jets. That little list of humor you posted is just about right
>>on.
>>In the T38, you climb in; push the start buttons and watch the temps rise,
>>then you point it where you want it to go and hang on. (of course it helps
>>if you actually HAVE it pointed where you want it to go when you hit the
>>burners :-).
>>You can fly the T38 all day long without touching the rudder pedals, and
>>that includes aerobatics!!
>>It's great to be able to look back on all that fun. :-)))
>>Dudley
>>
>

[Big John]

Dudley

Some more on that era and Willie.

The Air Cadet Class of 49C (?) graduated and in 6 months half had
killed themselves in operational Squadrons.

This caused the Training Command to fire everyone at Willie and bring
in a new group of instructors and a new Training Group Commander (Leon
"the peon" Gray). The new instructors were rotating pilots from
Fighter Squadrons in Far East and Europe, about 15 from each. I came
in from 8th FG in Japan and was an instructor in CIS (Central
Instructor School) there until all the newbe's were checked out in
back seat of T-6 and picked up students. F-80/T-33 check outs were
conducted in the Training Sections (#1 and #2) after finishing the
days instruction with students. My good buddy from 35th Squadron in
Japan gave me half a dozen touch and goes in T bird and signed me off.
I then went and said I want a F-80 and they gave me one and I went and
flew it. Not like the highly supervised checkouts today.

The F-80C and T Birds all had the semi automatic starting system with
the 'big' engine. Much easier to start and rarely a hot start unless
you started with tail pointing into a strong wind.

When I hit Willie, Luke had been closed and Willie sent tower
operators (mobile unit) and crash crew over when we started a new
class and used it for touch and goes on student check outs to relieve
traffic at Willie.

Korea started and they reactivated Luke and expanded Nellis. One story
about Nellis, they had a snack bar on corner of ramp nearest to
Runway. A student lost control of a 51 and ran into it and destroyed
it. No one got hurt in the crash which was a miracle. Didn't repair
but moved it to a new building on line.

On Scott and engine test. As I recall they didn't have the tail on and
were just running the new BIG engine to exercise the controls and give
him experience operating it. Think I saw it that way taxiing by before
it blew up? Lucky to have survived (with no injuries). Some bar talk
about not wanting to fly that bomb :o)

Your right about Willie and the rest of those fields. Right in the
middle of things. As student flow continued and losses in Korea were
less than 'progged' they backed up at Willie as Luke and Nellis
couldn't accept them. I helped to set up some Air to Air camera
training in T-33's to keep them busy and give them a head start on air
to air combat. It was fun to put them on the perch for a high side
attack. Did have one or two run into the target as happened in aerial
gunnery when you pushed :o)

If I haven't said, after leaving Willie went to Hamilton and ADC,
F-94C (best supersonic airplane I ever flew), F-89 (all versions after
'C') and tour with Navy VF-23 (Big Banshee, F2H3)and F-101B.

Enough war stories for today. My new computer (Athlon 3300 64) is
running infant morality mode and so far so good.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````````````

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:06:11 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>Hi John;
>Never flew the P80, but I remember those early days during the transition
>period from props to jets quite well. The loss rates were high as a kite as
>you have stated. But I'll bet you'll agree that in spite of it all, Willie
>and Luke were the places to be in those days.:-))
>Starting those early jets J33's, J47's etc really kept you guys on your toes
>balancing throttle and temps. Phrases like "bringing it around the horn" and
>"hot start" were quite commonly heard on the flight line back then and
>hardly heard any more.
>By contrast, the T38 is a "push to start" "go fast" buggy. :-)
>Putting a bird on a stand and running it was a great idea, although I
>remember the day Scott Crossfield blew the tail off the X15 at Edwards doing
>an engine testbed ground test on the XLR99 engine. He said it was quite
>funny really.
>They put him in the bird and everybody else went into the blockhouse. They
>called it "developing the confidence of the pilot" :-) When it blew, the
>front half of the airplane actually flew forward off the stand about 20
>feet. I always said, Crossfield should have logged the time! :-))
>Dudley
>
>
>
>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Dudley
>>
>> Guess you never flew the P-80 A/B?
>>
>> The boost pump was the main fuel pump from the P-59. Was a monster
>> that pulled something like 20+ amps.
>>
>> Once you got an indication of TPT you used both hands and pulled the
>> throttle back just into edge of idle cut off and then pushed out to
>> the idle position. This cycling let you keep the TPT from exceeding
>> limits as engine spooled up to idle. As the RPM rose you reached a
>> point where the starter dropped out and the TPT kept staying in limits
>> without cycling the throttle and as RPM stabilized in idle you also
>> had the idle TPT.
>>
>> Flying that early small engine (3850 lbs thrust), if you had to go
>> around in the pattern it took over 20 seconds from idle to full power.
>> Really had to stay ahead of bird in pattern. Lot of 51/47 jocks
>> checking out had trouble with this.
>>
>> Shut down was easy. Let idle for a minute or two to stabilize temps
>> and then go to idle cut off and clean cockpit up.
>>
>> At Willie (first jet school) we had the 'Captive Air'. This was a
>> P-80A mounted on supports (concrete/steel) with gear not touching
>> ground. This trainer let us put a student in cockpit and standing on
>> wing talk him through an engine start and simulated flight. (Start
>> engine and then cycle gear and flaps like would happen on a real
>> flight.) Last time I was at Willie for a reunion (they then had
>> T-38's) the Captive Air facility across the field had been torn down
>> and not saved for posterity :o(
>>
>> Been a long time since I thought about the early jets. We killed at
>> least one student a month and a instructor every quarter at Willie
>> when we started student jet training for Korea.
>>
>> Big John
>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Dudley
>>>>
>>>> Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>>>>
>>>> The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>>>>
>>>> Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
>>>> for those who haven't heard one start and run.
>>>>
>>>> Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Big John
>>>
>>>I have a few hours in the Jug (N) and some time in the Bearcat. Preferred
>>>the 51 for show work, but the cat was a real ride coming off the deck with
>>>some excess power to convert :-))
>>>Never flew the 4360, but I had a friend who had one in his Corsair. He
>>>used
>>>to laugh like hell when he told me that it sometimes took him more time to
>>>get it started than it did to make the flight he started it for.
>>>I've always wondered what the hell everybody thought was so damn hard
>>>about
>>>flying the jets. That little list of humor you posted is just about right
>>>on.
>>>In the T38, you climb in; push the start buttons and watch the temps rise,
>>>then you point it where you want it to go and hang on. (of course it helps
>>>if you actually HAVE it pointed where you want it to go when you hit the
>>>burners :-).
>>>You can fly the T38 all day long without touching the rudder pedals, and
>>>that includes aerobatics!!
>>>It's great to be able to look back on all that fun. :-)))
>>>Dudley
>>>
>>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

Yeah, those were the days all right.
I'm sure you probably didn't run into these guys, or probably wouldn't
remember them if you did, but from the F94C community, I remember a back
seater named Ray Nishibayashi. He flew out of New Castle Delaware. In the
F89 community, I had a friend named Bob Montgomery. He was a guard pilot.
There sure was a lot going on back in the old days :-)
Dudley

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> Dudley
>
> Some more on that era and Willie.
>
> The Air Cadet Class of 49C (?) graduated and in 6 months half had
> killed themselves in operational Squadrons.
>
> This caused the Training Command to fire everyone at Willie and bring
> in a new group of instructors and a new Training Group Commander (Leon
> "the peon" Gray). The new instructors were rotating pilots from
> Fighter Squadrons in Far East and Europe, about 15 from each. I came
> in from 8th FG in Japan and was an instructor in CIS (Central
> Instructor School) there until all the newbe's were checked out in
> back seat of T-6 and picked up students. F-80/T-33 check outs were
> conducted in the Training Sections (#1 and #2) after finishing the
> days instruction with students. My good buddy from 35th Squadron in
> Japan gave me half a dozen touch and goes in T bird and signed me off.
> I then went and said I want a F-80 and they gave me one and I went and
> flew it. Not like the highly supervised checkouts today.
>
> The F-80C and T Birds all had the semi automatic starting system with
> the 'big' engine. Much easier to start and rarely a hot start unless
> you started with tail pointing into a strong wind.
>
> When I hit Willie, Luke had been closed and Willie sent tower
> operators (mobile unit) and crash crew over when we started a new
> class and used it for touch and goes on student check outs to relieve
> traffic at Willie.
>
> Korea started and they reactivated Luke and expanded Nellis. One story
> about Nellis, they had a snack bar on corner of ramp nearest to
> Runway. A student lost control of a 51 and ran into it and destroyed
> it. No one got hurt in the crash which was a miracle. Didn't repair
> but moved it to a new building on line.
>
> On Scott and engine test. As I recall they didn't have the tail on and
> were just running the new BIG engine to exercise the controls and give
> him experience operating it. Think I saw it that way taxiing by before
> it blew up? Lucky to have survived (with no injuries). Some bar talk
> about not wanting to fly that bomb :o)
>
> Your right about Willie and the rest of those fields. Right in the
> middle of things. As student flow continued and losses in Korea were
> less than 'progged' they backed up at Willie as Luke and Nellis
> couldn't accept them. I helped to set up some Air to Air camera
> training in T-33's to keep them busy and give them a head start on air
> to air combat. It was fun to put them on the perch for a high side
> attack. Did have one or two run into the target as happened in aerial
> gunnery when you pushed :o)
>
> If I haven't said, after leaving Willie went to Hamilton and ADC,
> F-94C (best supersonic airplane I ever flew), F-89 (all versions after
> 'C') and tour with Navy VF-23 (Big Banshee, F2H3)and F-101B.
>
> Enough war stories for today. My new computer (Athlon 3300 64) is
> running infant morality mode and so far so good.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````````````
>
> On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:06:11 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
>>Hi John;
>>Never flew the P80, but I remember those early days during the transition
>>period from props to jets quite well. The loss rates were high as a kite
>>as
>>you have stated. But I'll bet you'll agree that in spite of it all, Willie
>>and Luke were the places to be in those days.:-))
>>Starting those early jets J33's, J47's etc really kept you guys on your
>>toes
>>balancing throttle and temps. Phrases like "bringing it around the horn"
>>and
>>"hot start" were quite commonly heard on the flight line back then and
>>hardly heard any more.
>>By contrast, the T38 is a "push to start" "go fast" buggy. :-)
>>Putting a bird on a stand and running it was a great idea, although I
>>remember the day Scott Crossfield blew the tail off the X15 at Edwards
>>doing
>>an engine testbed ground test on the XLR99 engine. He said it was quite
>>funny really.
>>They put him in the bird and everybody else went into the blockhouse. They
>>called it "developing the confidence of the pilot" :-) When it blew, the
>>front half of the airplane actually flew forward off the stand about 20
>>feet. I always said, Crossfield should have logged the time! :-))
>>Dudley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>> Dudley
>>>
>>> Guess you never flew the P-80 A/B?
>>>
>>> The boost pump was the main fuel pump from the P-59. Was a monster
>>> that pulled something like 20+ amps.
>>>
>>> Once you got an indication of TPT you used both hands and pulled the
>>> throttle back just into edge of idle cut off and then pushed out to
>>> the idle position. This cycling let you keep the TPT from exceeding
>>> limits as engine spooled up to idle. As the RPM rose you reached a
>>> point where the starter dropped out and the TPT kept staying in limits
>>> without cycling the throttle and as RPM stabilized in idle you also
>>> had the idle TPT.
>>>
>>> Flying that early small engine (3850 lbs thrust), if you had to go
>>> around in the pattern it took over 20 seconds from idle to full power.
>>> Really had to stay ahead of bird in pattern. Lot of 51/47 jocks
>>> checking out had trouble with this.
>>>
>>> Shut down was easy. Let idle for a minute or two to stabilize temps
>>> and then go to idle cut off and clean cockpit up.
>>>
>>> At Willie (first jet school) we had the 'Captive Air'. This was a
>>> P-80A mounted on supports (concrete/steel) with gear not touching
>>> ground. This trainer let us put a student in cockpit and standing on
>>> wing talk him through an engine start and simulated flight. (Start
>>> engine and then cycle gear and flaps like would happen on a real
>>> flight.) Last time I was at Willie for a reunion (they then had
>>> T-38's) the Captive Air facility across the field had been torn down
>>> and not saved for posterity :o(
>>>
>>> Been a long time since I thought about the early jets. We killed at
>>> least one student a month and a instructor every quarter at Willie
>>> when we started student jet training for Korea.
>>>
>>> Big John
>>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
>>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> Dudley
>>>>>
>>>>> Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>>>>>
>>>>> The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
>>>>> for those who haven't heard one start and run.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Big John
>>>>
>>>>I have a few hours in the Jug (N) and some time in the Bearcat.
>>>>Preferred
>>>>the 51 for show work, but the cat was a real ride coming off the deck
>>>>with
>>>>some excess power to convert :-))
>>>>Never flew the 4360, but I had a friend who had one in his Corsair. He
>>>>used
>>>>to laugh like hell when he told me that it sometimes took him more time
>>>>to
>>>>get it started than it did to make the flight he started it for.
>>>>I've always wondered what the hell everybody thought was so damn hard
>>>>about
>>>>flying the jets. That little list of humor you posted is just about
>>>>right
>>>>on.
>>>>In the T38, you climb in; push the start buttons and watch the temps
>>>>rise,
>>>>then you point it where you want it to go and hang on. (of course it
>>>>helps
>>>>if you actually HAVE it pointed where you want it to go when you hit the
>>>>burners :-).
>>>>You can fly the T38 all day long without touching the rudder pedals, and
>>>>that includes aerobatics!!
>>>>It's great to be able to look back on all that fun. :-)))
>>>>Dudley
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[.Blueskies.]

Thanks for the stories guys!

[Big John]

Dudley

Names don't strike a bell. We, WADF, didn't have much contact with
East Coast, EADF.

My last F-89J flying was as Air Force Advisor to the Maine Air Guard.
With my MB-1 back ground helped them go Nuc (first Guard Sq to do so).

In the 'J' with the MB-1, I developed the head on attack and sold it
to ADC. Gave the bird a Pk of over 95%. Only bird to do head on's in
USAF as far as I know.

Enough war stories. I'm going to quit taking up band width and go to
bed.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:07:15 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>Yeah, those were the days all right.
>I'm sure you probably didn't run into these guys, or probably wouldn't
>remember them if you did, but from the F94C community, I remember a back
>seater named Ray Nishibayashi. He flew out of New Castle Delaware. In the
>F89 community, I had a friend named Bob Montgomery. He was a guard pilot.
>There sure was a lot going on back in the old days :-)
>Dudley
>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Dudley
>>
>> Some more on that era and Willie.
>>
>> The Air Cadet Class of 49C (?) graduated and in 6 months half had
>> killed themselves in operational Squadrons.
>>
>> This caused the Training Command to fire everyone at Willie and bring
>> in a new group of instructors and a new Training Group Commander (Leon
>> "the peon" Gray). The new instructors were rotating pilots from
>> Fighter Squadrons in Far East and Europe, about 15 from each. I came
>> in from 8th FG in Japan and was an instructor in CIS (Central
>> Instructor School) there until all the newbe's were checked out in
>> back seat of T-6 and picked up students. F-80/T-33 check outs were
>> conducted in the Training Sections (#1 and #2) after finishing the
>> days instruction with students. My good buddy from 35th Squadron in
>> Japan gave me half a dozen touch and goes in T bird and signed me off.
>> I then went and said I want a F-80 and they gave me one and I went and
>> flew it. Not like the highly supervised checkouts today.
>>
>> The F-80C and T Birds all had the semi automatic starting system with
>> the 'big' engine. Much easier to start and rarely a hot start unless
>> you started with tail pointing into a strong wind.
>>
>> When I hit Willie, Luke had been closed and Willie sent tower
>> operators (mobile unit) and crash crew over when we started a new
>> class and used it for touch and goes on student check outs to relieve
>> traffic at Willie.
>>
>> Korea started and they reactivated Luke and expanded Nellis. One story
>> about Nellis, they had a snack bar on corner of ramp nearest to
>> Runway. A student lost control of a 51 and ran into it and destroyed
>> it. No one got hurt in the crash which was a miracle. Didn't repair
>> but moved it to a new building on line.
>>
>> On Scott and engine test. As I recall they didn't have the tail on and
>> were just running the new BIG engine to exercise the controls and give
>> him experience operating it. Think I saw it that way taxiing by before
>> it blew up? Lucky to have survived (with no injuries). Some bar talk
>> about not wanting to fly that bomb :o)
>>
>> Your right about Willie and the rest of those fields. Right in the
>> middle of things. As student flow continued and losses in Korea were
>> less than 'progged' they backed up at Willie as Luke and Nellis
>> couldn't accept them. I helped to set up some Air to Air camera
>> training in T-33's to keep them busy and give them a head start on air
>> to air combat. It was fun to put them on the perch for a high side
>> attack. Did have one or two run into the target as happened in aerial
>> gunnery when you pushed :o)
>>
>> If I haven't said, after leaving Willie went to Hamilton and ADC,
>> F-94C (best supersonic airplane I ever flew), F-89 (all versions after
>> 'C') and tour with Navy VF-23 (Big Banshee, F2H3)and F-101B.
>>
>> Enough war stories for today. My new computer (Athlon 3300 64) is
>> running infant morality mode and so far so good.
>>
>> Big John
>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````````````
>>
>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:06:11 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Hi John;
>>>Never flew the P80, but I remember those early days during the transition
>>>period from props to jets quite well. The loss rates were high as a kite
>>>as
>>>you have stated. But I'll bet you'll agree that in spite of it all, Willie
>>>and Luke were the places to be in those days.:-))
>>>Starting those early jets J33's, J47's etc really kept you guys on your
>>>toes
>>>balancing throttle and temps. Phrases like "bringing it around the horn"
>>>and
>>>"hot start" were quite commonly heard on the flight line back then and
>>>hardly heard any more.
>>>By contrast, the T38 is a "push to start" "go fast" buggy. :-)
>>>Putting a bird on a stand and running it was a great idea, although I
>>>remember the day Scott Crossfield blew the tail off the X15 at Edwards
>>>doing
>>>an engine testbed ground test on the XLR99 engine. He said it was quite
>>>funny really.
>>>They put him in the bird and everybody else went into the blockhouse. They
>>>called it "developing the confidence of the pilot" :-) When it blew, the
>>>front half of the airplane actually flew forward off the stand about 20
>>>feet. I always said, Crossfield should have logged the time! :-))
>>>Dudley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Dudley
>>>>
>>>> Guess you never flew the P-80 A/B?
>>>>
>>>> The boost pump was the main fuel pump from the P-59. Was a monster
>>>> that pulled something like 20+ amps.
>>>>
>>>> Once you got an indication of TPT you used both hands and pulled the
>>>> throttle back just into edge of idle cut off and then pushed out to
>>>> the idle position. This cycling let you keep the TPT from exceeding
>>>> limits as engine spooled up to idle. As the RPM rose you reached a
>>>> point where the starter dropped out and the TPT kept staying in limits
>>>> without cycling the throttle and as RPM stabilized in idle you also
>>>> had the idle TPT.
>>>>
>>>> Flying that early small engine (3850 lbs thrust), if you had to go
>>>> around in the pattern it took over 20 seconds from idle to full power.
>>>> Really had to stay ahead of bird in pattern. Lot of 51/47 jocks
>>>> checking out had trouble with this.
>>>>
>>>> Shut down was easy. Let idle for a minute or two to stabilize temps
>>>> and then go to idle cut off and clean cockpit up.
>>>>
>>>> At Willie (first jet school) we had the 'Captive Air'. This was a
>>>> P-80A mounted on supports (concrete/steel) with gear not touching
>>>> ground. This trainer let us put a student in cockpit and standing on
>>>> wing talk him through an engine start and simulated flight. (Start
>>>> engine and then cycle gear and flaps like would happen on a real
>>>> flight.) Last time I was at Willie for a reunion (they then had
>>>> T-38's) the Captive Air facility across the field had been torn down
>>>> and not saved for posterity :o(
>>>>
>>>> Been a long time since I thought about the early jets. We killed at
>>>> least one student a month and a instructor every quarter at Willie
>>>> when we started student jet training for Korea.
>>>>
>>>> Big John
>>>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> Dudley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
>>>>>> for those who haven't heard one start and run.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hundreds of hours behind a R1340.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Big John
>>>>>
>>>>>I have a few hours in the Jug (N) and some time in the Bearcat.
>>>>>Preferred
>>>>>the 51 for show work, but the cat was a real ride coming off the deck
>>>>>with
>>>>>some excess power to convert :-))
>>>>>Never flew the 4360, but I had a friend who had one in his Corsair. He
>>>>>used
>>>>>to laugh like hell when he told me that it sometimes took him more time
>>>>>to
>>>>>get it started than it did to make the flight he started it for.
>>>>>I've always wondered what the hell everybody thought was so damn hard
>>>>>about
>>>>>flying the jets. That little list of humor you posted is just about
>>>>>right
>>>>>on.
>>>>>In the T38, you climb in; push the start buttons and watch the temps
>>>>>rise,
>>>>>then you point it where you want it to go and hang on. (of course it
>>>>>helps
>>>>>if you actually HAVE it pointed where you want it to go when you hit the
>>>>>burners :-).
>>>>>You can fly the T38 all day long without touching the rudder pedals, and
>>>>>that includes aerobatics!!
>>>>>It's great to be able to look back on all that fun. :-)))
>>>>>Dudley
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley
>
> Names don't strike a bell. We, WADF, didn't have much contact with
> East Coast, EADF.
>
> My last F-89J flying was as Air Force Advisor to the Maine Air Guard.
> With my MB-1 back ground helped them go Nuc (first Guard Sq to do so).
>
> In the 'J' with the MB-1, I developed the head on attack and sold it
> to ADC. Gave the bird a Pk of over 95%. Only bird to do head on's in
> USAF as far as I know.
>
> Enough war stories. I'm going to quit taking up band width and go to
> bed.
>
> Big John
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````
>

John,

Fascinating thread...

I live in the Phoenix area (since late 1997) and had never heard of Luke
ever being closed.

Ironic that Luke prospers while Williams got the axe.

FWIW, they've just opened a great new GA terminal at Williams Gateway and
businesses continue to move into all the former AF facilities. The future
seems bright for "Willie" as a public airport.

Wonder why Luke and Williams' fortunes swung in opposite directions...?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

[Big John]

Jay

Seems like there was a subdivision problem or Luke was encroaching on
something? Been so long ago.

When Korea started and after, they had to cut a path through the
airway going west from Phoenix to let the birds get to the gunnery
ranges down toward Yuma (think the ranges are now named for
Goldwater?). Remember some finger pointing between FAA and USAF before
things were settled.

Final agreement was (as I recall) they cut a low altitude gate (below
4000 ft) across the airway and the jets had to stay low going out and
let down and come back in at low altitude to get home.

Willie was out in the boon docks at that time so that was probably why
it was first choice to keep open unless it was a political decision
which we didn't know about.

I keep reading about things moving into Willie and flying activities
there now. Was sorry to see the USAF give it up :o(

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:42:05 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> Dudley
>>
>> Names don't strike a bell. We, WADF, didn't have much contact with
>> East Coast, EADF.
>>
>> My last F-89J flying was as Air Force Advisor to the Maine Air Guard.
>> With my MB-1 back ground helped them go Nuc (first Guard Sq to do so).
>>
>> In the 'J' with the MB-1, I developed the head on attack and sold it
>> to ADC. Gave the bird a Pk of over 95%. Only bird to do head on's in
>> USAF as far as I know.
>>
>> Enough war stories. I'm going to quit taking up band width and go to
>> bed.
>>
>> Big John
>> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````
>>
>
>John,
>
>Fascinating thread...
>
>I live in the Phoenix area (since late 1997) and had never heard of Luke
>ever being closed.
>
>Ironic that Luke prospers while Williams got the axe.
>
>FWIW, they've just opened a great new GA terminal at Williams Gateway and
>businesses continue to move into all the former AF facilities. The future
>seems bright for "Willie" as a public airport.
>
>Wonder why Luke and Williams' fortunes swung in opposite directions...?
>
>Jay Beckman
>PP-ASEL
>AZ Cloudbusters
>Chandler, AZ
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jay
>
> Seems like there was a subdivision problem or Luke was encroaching on
> something? Been so long ago.

It would seem everyting old is new again as development near Luke is
something that is often in the news these days.

> When Korea started and after, they had to cut a path through the
> airway going west from Phoenix to let the birds get to the gunnery
> ranges down toward Yuma (think the ranges are now named for
> Goldwater?).

Correct, the ranges down along the Mexican border are the Barry Goldwater
range(s.)

> Remember some finger pointing between FAA and USAF before
> things were settled.

> Final agreement was (as I recall) they cut a low altitude gate (below
> 4000 ft) across the airway and the jets had to stay low going out and
> let down and come back in at low altitude to get home.

I think things have sort of flip flopped these days. They seem to prefer to
send the F16s down to the Goldwater range at 7500' and higher and want GA
down lower. I always make sure I'm talking to Luke Approach whenever I head
southwest of Phoenix and I tend to delay my climb to the usual 8500' and
stay down at 4500-6500' until I'm west or northwest of the Gila Bend VORTAC.

> Willie was out in the boon docks at that time so that was probably why
> it was first choice to keep open unless it was a political decision
> which we didn't know about.

We're quickly running out of "boondocks" out here. Good thing businesses
and ASU jumped on Willie quickly or some developer would have snapped that
land up in a heartbeat.

> I keep reading about things moving into Willie and flying activities
> there now. Was sorry to see the USAF give it up :o(

Did some T&Gs there when I was training for my private ... 10,000' runways
look awfully big when you're in a spam can and they take forever to fly the
downwind leg!

Regards,

Jay Beckman

[john smith]

> Did some T&Gs there when I was training for my private ... 10,000' runways
> look awfully big when you're in a spam can and they take forever to fly the
> downwind leg!

What makes you think you have to fly the length of the runway to do
T&G's?

[Jose]

> What makes you think you have to fly the length of the runway to do
> T&G's?

Well, except for the "three bounce currency", you are expected to fly
the pattern, whose size relates to the runway length.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Beckman]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Did some T&Gs there when I was training for my private ... 10,000'
>> runways
>> look awfully big when you're in a spam can and they take forever to fly
>> the
>> downwind leg!
>
> What makes you think you have to fly the length of the runway to do
> T&G's?

Because I didn't want to explain to the tower why I truncated the pattern
for 30C when 30R, 30C and 30L were all in use...howzat?

FWIW, we only did a couple and it was kind of a kick to already be at
pattern altitude with over 1/2 the runway still to go. We were back in the
air on the go before we'd even reached the end of the skidmarks in the
touchdown zone. And, I only had about 22 hours at that point so alternative
ways to fly the pattern were not something I'd given much thought to at that
point.

Jay B

[Jose]

> We were back in the
> air on the go before we'd even reached the end of the skidmarks in the
> touchdown zone.

I've heard this phrase many times, but am curious as to its etymology.
Anybody know where it originated?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Flyingmonk]

That's how I let the tower know i'm moving.

The Monk

[john smith]

In article <n_CBf.11318$jR.9890@fed1read01>,
"Jay Beckman" > wrote:

> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Did some T&Gs there when I was training for my private ... 10,000'
> >> runways look awfully big when you're in a spam can and they take
> >> forever to fly the downwind leg!

> > What makes you think you have to fly the length of the runway to do
> > T&G's?

> Because I didn't want to explain to the tower why I truncated the pattern
> for 30C when 30R, 30C and 30L were all in use...howzat?

Ah Ha! Information not included in the original posting! :-))

[Big John]

The Monk

"Rolling" is another term used.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````

On 24 Jan 2006 22:11:41 -0800, "Flyingmonk" > wrote:

>That's how I let the tower know i'm moving.
>
>The Monk

[Flyingmonk]

Hey Big John, heard frmo BWB?

The Monk

[Big John]

The Monk

No. Didn't someone say he had gone back to school for another degree
and time was precious or some such?

Big John Rolling :o)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````

On 25 Jan 2006 07:51:57 -0800, "Flyingmonk" > wrote:

>Hey Big John, heard frmo BWB?
>
>The Monk

[Jay Beckman]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article <n_CBf.11318$jR.9890@fed1read01>,
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote:
>
>> "john smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Did some T&Gs there when I was training for my private ... 10,000'
>> >> runways look awfully big when you're in a spam can and they take
>> >> forever to fly the downwind leg!
>
>> > What makes you think you have to fly the length of the runway to do
>> > T&G's?
>
>> Because I didn't want to explain to the tower why I truncated the pattern
>> for 30C when 30R, 30C and 30L were all in use...howzat?
>
> Ah Ha! Information not included in the original posting! :-))

Noted along with appropriate level of shame ... sorry.

Jay B

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:00:22 -0600, Big John >
wrote:

>Dudley
>
>Those were the good old days but we only realize it now :o)
>
>The biggest I fired up was the R2800 (P-47D).
>
>Looking back I think I remember it sounded like a 'Harly Hog' today
>for those who haven't heard one start and run.

snip

Had a biker walk into the hangar one day looking for some "airplane
oil" for his Hog.

Asked him if he wanted 40 or 50 weight, detergent, or not. While he
was thinking about it, he was checking out a R-985 hanging on one of
our E-18S's.

"could I put a couple of those on my bike?"

"if you did, it would be darn near a 220."

"whoa."

TC

[Big John]

The Monk

"Rolling" is another term used.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````

On 24 Jan 2006 22:11:41 -0800, "Flyingmonk" > wrote:

>That's how I let the tower know i'm moving.
>
>The Monk

[Flyingmonk]

Big John wrote:
>"Rolling" is another term used.

Yep, use that one too.

The Monk

[Flyingmonk]

Maybe I should say "Skidding"? Since I'm on skids? <g>

The Monk

[George Patterson]

Big John wrote:

> "Rolling" is another term used.

That's what I use at towered fields.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.