Why do jets leave a white trail behind them.

[AliR]

Hi everyone,

Me and a friend are wondering why jets leave a white trail behind them. My
guess is that it's moisture being compressed as it passes through the
turbine (because some leave a single trail, while others leave two separate
trails). My friend thinks it's because of moisture being cooled as it
passes over the wing (Bernoulli effect).

While flying a bonanza I have seen a small white trail extending from the
wingtip for a little while right after I break through the clouds
(descending).

Is either one of us right?

AliR.

[Thomas Borchert]

AliR,

> Is either one of us right?
>

Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when the pressure
change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make the water in
the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long contrails. The
long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust contains small
particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water vapor in the air
to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without them.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[tom]

Don't forget that burning any hydrocarbon produces water vapor as well,
so the jet is also adding moisture to the mix. If the air is
relatively dry, the trail disappears rapidly, but if the atmosphere is
near saturation, the contrails can last for many minutes.
tom

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> AliR,
>
>> Is either one of us right?
>>
>
> Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when the pressure
> change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make the water in
> the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long contrails. The
> long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust contains small
> particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water vapor in the air
> to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without them.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>


How dare you promote the cover story that contrails are just water vapor and
exhaust. It is an operation by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Disney to poison us
all. You must be one of them.

OK I made up the Disney part, but you can read the TRUTH at the link below.


http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

[AliR]

Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found lot's of info on it
on the web. Thanks.

AliR.



"tom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Don't forget that burning any hydrocarbon produces water vapor as well,
> so the jet is also adding moisture to the mix. If the air is
> relatively dry, the trail disappears rapidly, but if the atmosphere is
> near saturation, the contrails can last for many minutes.
> tom
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
>
> "Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
> ...
>> AliR,
>>
>>> Is either one of us right?
>>>
>>
>> Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when the pressure
>> change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make the water in
>> the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long contrails. The
>> long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust contains small
>> particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water vapor in the air
>> to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without them.
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>>
>
>
> How dare you promote the cover story that contrails are just water vapor
> and exhaust. It is an operation by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Disney to poison
> us all. You must be one of them.
>
> OK I made up the Disney part, but you can read the TRUTH at the link
> below.
>
>
> http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
>

Love the "How To Photograph A Chemplane" article...

It must be great to be able to get f/5 out of a 300mm f/4 lens with a 2x
teleconverter on it. Not to mention the detail you can get with ISO800 film
with your subject at FL330 !

LOL...

Jay B

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "AliR" > said:
>Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found lot's of info on it
>on the web. Thanks.

Just beware of the paranoid lunatics who talk about "chemtrails".


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Please say this was followed by a very serious discussion on Right and
Wrong involving a blow torch, 220V, a cobra and three East Germans
named Georg... -- Robert Uhl

[[email protected]]

Yeah, everyone knows Disney's mind control system is based in "It's a
Small World."

[AliR]

I ran into that, it was very funny.

AliR.

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "AliR" > said:
> >Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found lot's of info on
it
> >on the web. Thanks.
>
> Just beware of the paranoid lunatics who talk about "chemtrails".
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> Please say this was followed by a very serious discussion on Right and
> Wrong involving a blow torch, 220V, a cobra and three East Germans
> named Georg... -- Robert Uhl

[george]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> "Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
> ...
> > AliR,
> >
> >> Is either one of us right?
> >>
> >
> > Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when the pressure
> > change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make the water in
> > the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long contrails. The
> > long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust contains small
> > particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water vapor in the air
> > to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without them.
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
> >
>
>
> How dare you promote the cover story that contrails are just water vapor and
> exhaust. It is an operation by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Disney to poison us
> all. You must be one of them.
>
> OK I made up the Disney part, but you can read the TRUTH at the link below.
>
>
> http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

I kept asking the 'chemtrail' kooks where I had to look on the aircraft
I fly to find the 'chem tank and the spray nozzles'
ROTFL

[Skywise]

"george" > wrote in
oups.com:

<Snipola>
> I kept asking the 'chemtrail' kooks where I had to look on the aircraft
> I fly to find the 'chem tank and the spray nozzles'
> ROTFL

Some of them say it's a chemical put in the fuel, hence why some
plane's leave such long and permanent trails.

Well, they must have been doing this since at least WWII, if not
sooner, as I regularly see footage of WWII bombers making trails
over Europe on various cable/sat documentary channels.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Morgans]

"AliR" > wrote in message
. ..
> Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found lot's of info on it
> on the web. Thanks.
>
Which is short for "condensation trails."

The water produced from burning lots of gallons of Jet A fuel, producing
water, in vapor form, (lots of it) then exhausting it into very cold air
(20, 30, 40 degrees F, below zero) causes nearly all of that moisture
condense into visible water vapor, pretty quickly.

If you notice, sometimes, you see a space behind the jet where there is no
visible vapor, then it finally cools enough to become visible.

This same thing even happens behind piston engines. They are still burning
fuel, producing water, and having it cool greatly. It is most often seen
behind the high level, heavy bombers of WWII.

I remember the Jimmy Stewart flick, where he was called back into service
after WWII, in the Strategic Air Command. I think that was the name of the
movie, also. Anyway, if you don't get anything else out of the movie, the
flying scenes are "to die for." There are many minutes of seeing the B-36's
flying at very high altitude, with the contrails appearing a few hundred
yards behind the planes.

Kinda neat.

Of course, these planes had jet engines, and gasoline engines, and a lot of
them. Aluminum airplanes, and iron men! Make a point of seeing that movie.
It is worth it.

Extra points, for trivia. What kind/s of fuel did the B-36 carry?
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> AliR,
>
>
>>Is either one of us right?
>>
>
>
> Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when the pressure
> change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make the water in
> the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long contrails. The
> long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust contains small
> particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water vapor in the air
> to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without them.
>

And the combustion of hydrocarbons produces a lot of water...

Matt

[Bob Moore]

"Morgans" >wrote
> Extra points, for trivia. What kind/s of fuel did the B-36
> carry?

Probably 115/145 AVGAS Purple Stuff

Bob Moore

[Jay Beckman]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "AliR" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found lot's of info on
>> it
>> on the web. Thanks.
>>
> Which is short for "condensation trails."
>
> The water produced from burning lots of gallons of Jet A fuel, producing
> water, in vapor form, (lots of it) then exhausting it into very cold air
> (20, 30, 40 degrees F, below zero) causes nearly all of that moisture
> condense into visible water vapor, pretty quickly.
>
> If you notice, sometimes, you see a space behind the jet where there is no
> visible vapor, then it finally cools enough to become visible.
>
> This same thing even happens behind piston engines. They are still
> burning fuel, producing water, and having it cool greatly. It is most
> often seen behind the high level, heavy bombers of WWII.
>
> I remember the Jimmy Stewart flick, where he was called back into service
> after WWII, in the Strategic Air Command. I think that was the name of
> the movie, also. Anyway, if you don't get anything else out of the movie,
> the flying scenes are "to die for." There are many minutes of seeing the
> B-36's flying at very high altitude, with the contrails appearing a few
> hundred yards behind the planes.
>
> Kinda neat.
>
> Of course, these planes had jet engines, and gasoline engines, and a lot
> of them. Aluminum airplanes, and iron men! Make a point of seeing that
> movie. It is worth it.
>
> Extra points, for trivia. What kind/s of fuel did the B-36 carry?
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

Since it had "six turnin' and four burnin'" did it have to carry AvGas and
JP?

It also carried a nuclear reactor aloft at one point:

http://www.cowtown.net/proweb/nb36h_jde.htm

Jay B

[Jim Macklin]

Jet fuel also contains a lot (relatively) of water, which
condenses soon after leaving the exhaust. That is why they
are called CONTRAILS condensation trails. They were first
seen behind the bombers during WWII and so-named.


"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in
message ...
| AliR,
|
| > Is either one of us right?
| >
|
| Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when
the pressure
| change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make
the water in
| the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long
contrails. The
| long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust
contains small
| particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water
vapor in the air
| to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without
them.
|
| --
| Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
|

[Jim Macklin]

Purple 115/145 avgas, burns just fine in the jet and was
required by the big P&W radials.


"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:EcUzf.9831$jR.3049@fed1read01...
| "Morgans" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > "AliR" > wrote in message
| > . ..
| >> Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found
lot's of info on
| >> it
| >> on the web. Thanks.
| >>
| > Which is short for "condensation trails."
| >
| > The water produced from burning lots of gallons of Jet A
fuel, producing
| > water, in vapor form, (lots of it) then exhausting it
into very cold air
| > (20, 30, 40 degrees F, below zero) causes nearly all of
that moisture
| > condense into visible water vapor, pretty quickly.
| >
| > If you notice, sometimes, you see a space behind the jet
where there is no
| > visible vapor, then it finally cools enough to become
visible.
| >
| > This same thing even happens behind piston engines.
They are still
| > burning fuel, producing water, and having it cool
greatly. It is most
| > often seen behind the high level, heavy bombers of WWII.
| >
| > I remember the Jimmy Stewart flick, where he was called
back into service
| > after WWII, in the Strategic Air Command. I think that
was the name of
| > the movie, also. Anyway, if you don't get anything else
out of the movie,
| > the flying scenes are "to die for." There are many
minutes of seeing the
| > B-36's flying at very high altitude, with the contrails
appearing a few
| > hundred yards behind the planes.
| >
| > Kinda neat.
| >
| > Of course, these planes had jet engines, and gasoline
engines, and a lot
| > of them. Aluminum airplanes, and iron men! Make a
point of seeing that
| > movie. It is worth it.
| >
| > Extra points, for trivia. What kind/s of fuel did the
B-36 carry?
| > --
| > Jim in NC
| >
| >
|
| Since it had "six turnin' and four burnin'" did it have to
carry AvGas and
| JP?
|
| It also carried a nuclear reactor aloft at one point:
|
| http://www.cowtown.net/proweb/nb36h_jde.htm
|
| Jay B
|
|

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:LMUzf.66027$QW2.60514@dukeread08...
> Purple 115/145 avgas, burns just fine in the jet and was
> required by the big P&W radials.

Yep. As I recall, the jet engines did also not run continuously, but were
turned off, after takeoff and climb. Correct?
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Jet fuel also contains a lot (relatively) of water, which
> condenses soon after leaving the exhaust. That is why they
> are called CONTRAILS condensation trails. They were first
> seen behind the bombers during WWII and so-named.

If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.

Matt

[Dan Foster]

In article >, Paul Tomblin > wrote:
> In a previous article, "AliR" > said:
>>Oh it's called Contrails, I didn't know that. I found lot's of info on it
>>on the web. Thanks.
>
> Just beware of the paranoid lunatics who talk about "chemtrails".

Well, you know... it is, after all, a *very* dangerous chemical:

Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) -- someone has posted a MSDS (material safety
data sheet) on it:

http://www.dhmo.org/msdsdhmo.html

So...

;)

Best part was the time where city hall in a town in the U.S. actually
passed a law banning DHMO. It stood in force for a day before the very
red-faced city council repealed that ban.

I do, however, have great respect for DHMO in its various forms since it
can cause real problems for GA pilots. :-)

-Dan

(Alternative theory: contrails were invented to give the chemtrail kooks
something to do in their copious spare time. </tongue-in-cheek>)

Note to AliR: I'm just kidding in this post. Not poking fun at your
serious inquiry, which has gotten a number of great responses. I'm just
poking fun in passing at the chemtrail kooks.

[Darkwing]

"AliR" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone,
>
> Me and a friend are wondering why jets leave a white trail behind them.
> My
> guess is that it's moisture being compressed as it passes through the
> turbine (because some leave a single trail, while others leave two
> separate
> trails). My friend thinks it's because of moisture being cooled as it
> passes over the wing (Bernoulli effect).
>
> While flying a bonanza I have seen a small white trail extending from the
> wingtip for a little while right after I break through the clouds
> (descending).
>
> Is either one of us right?
>
> AliR.


The goobermint is really leaving behind chemtrails to kontrol your brain!
BWHHAAAAAAHAAAAA!!!!

---------------------------------------
DW

[Darkwing]

"george" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> "Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > AliR,
>> >
>> >> Is either one of us right?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Your friend, partly. There are atmospheric conditions when the pressure
>> > change over the wing or at a wing tip is enough to make the water in
>> > the air visible. But they are rare and don't make long contrails. The
>> > long contrails from jets you see are because the exhaust contains small
>> > particles (soot and other stuff) which cause the water vapor in the air
>> > to condense on them where it wouldn't condense without them.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>> >
>>
>>
>> How dare you promote the cover story that contrails are just water vapor
>> and
>> exhaust. It is an operation by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Disney to poison us
>> all. You must be one of them.
>>
>> OK I made up the Disney part, but you can read the TRUTH at the link
>> below.
>>
>>
>> http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
>
> I kept asking the 'chemtrail' kooks where I had to look on the aircraft
> I fly to find the 'chem tank and the spray nozzles'
> ROTFL
>


Here is the deal on "chemtrails". Ever notice on a nice day with no low,
medium or high clouds that jets also leave no vapor trails? Why? Because the
atmosphere is to dry to support the moisture! Then on days where moisture is
moving in the "chemtrails" manage to hang around since their is enough
support in the upper atmosphere. Wow that is really difficult to understand.
Chemtrail kooks should be shot.

--------------------------------------------------------
DW

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
> chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
> and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.

Jet fuel, kerosene, diesel fuel, are all hygroscopic. That means that they
have an affinity for absorbing water. Great amounts of it. If they absorb
enough, then it will not burn.

This is one reason why you don't have to sump jet fueled airplane's tanks.
There will be no separate water to drain.

I do take some deference to Jim's saying that jet fuel contains significant
amounts of water. They try real hard to keep jet fuel dry, because it they
didn't, it would start to freeze out, while in the fuel, at altitude.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

They cruised on just the piston engines and used all 10 for
take-off and attack runs, I think they did the climb using
just the pistons.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:LMUzf.66027$QW2.60514@dukeread08...
| > Purple 115/145 avgas, burns just fine in the jet and was
| > required by the big P&W radials.
|
| Yep. As I recall, the jet engines did also not run
continuously, but were
| turned off, after takeoff and climb. Correct?
| --
| Jim in NC
|

[Jim Macklin]

It is hydroscopic and absorbs water. The water in the
"spaces" between the hydrocarbon is where the fungus grows.


"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| > Jet fuel also contains a lot (relatively) of water,
which
| > condenses soon after leaving the exhaust. That is why
they
| > are called CONTRAILS condensation trails. They were
first
| > seen behind the bombers during WWII and so-named.
|
| If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn?
When I took
| chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll
please ... carbon
| and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
|
| Matt

[Jim Macklin]

Most jet aircraft have heated fuel tanks and or use PRIST.
The fuel control units are heated by engine oil or electric
elements so the screens stay ice free.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Matt Whiting" > wrote
|
| > If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn?
When I took
| > chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll
please ... carbon
| > and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
|
| Jet fuel, kerosene, diesel fuel, are all hygroscopic.
That means that they
| have an affinity for absorbing water. Great amounts of
it. If they absorb
| enough, then it will not burn.
|
| This is one reason why you don't have to sump jet fueled
airplane's tanks.
| There will be no separate water to drain.
|
| I do take some deference to Jim's saying that jet fuel
contains significant
| amounts of water. They try real hard to keep jet fuel
dry, because it they
| didn't, it would start to freeze out, while in the fuel,
at altitude.
| --
| Jim in NC
|

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:kbWzf.66479$QW2.33865@dukeread08...
> Most jet aircraft have heated fuel tanks and or use PRIST.
> The fuel control units are heated by engine oil or electric
> elements so the screens stay ice free.
\\
Yes, I do know all of that, but do smaller jet fueled planes (Malibu and
smaller) have heated tanks? I still say that they try real hard to keep
water away from jet fuel, and the amount of water added to the contrail
because of water in the fuel is a small fraction of the water released from
the combustion process.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:jbWzf.66478$QW2.21900@dukeread08...
> It is hydroscopic and absorbs water. The water in the
> "spaces" between the hydrocarbon is where the fungus grows.
\\
Damn spell checker. Hydroscopic prollly was not a choice. <G>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
> chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
> and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
\\
Combustion leaves some hydrogen unclaimed, and the oxygen is really happy to
claim it, and when it combines two H's, and one O, you get water.

Weren't awake during that day of chemistry, were you, Matt? <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Skywise]

Matt Whiting > wrote in news:n1Vzf.5348$lb.461860
@news1.epix.net:

> Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>> Jet fuel also contains a lot (relatively) of water, which
>> condenses soon after leaving the exhaust. That is why they
>> are called CONTRAILS condensation trails. They were first
>> seen behind the bombers during WWII and so-named.
>
> If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
> chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
> and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
>
> Matt

Others have already explained how there is water diluted in the
fuel, but I think you forgot something. What do you burn that
hydrocarbon with? That's right! O2. When the fuel bruns, some of
that H combines with some of that O2 and you end up with some
H2O.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Bob Moore]

"Morgans" >wrote

>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in
> message news:kbWzf.66479$QW2.33865@dukeread08...
>> Most jet aircraft have heated fuel tanks and or use PRIST.
>> The fuel control units are heated by engine oil or electric
>> elements so the screens stay ice free.
> \\
> Yes, I do know all of that, but do smaller jet fueled planes
> (Malibu and smaller) have heated tanks?

I don't know about the Malibu, but the large jet transports that I
have flown, B-707, B-727, certainly did not have heated fuel tanks.
Yep, the fuel filters had a heating capability using bleed air from
the engine compressors.....flightcrew controlled. At higher Mach
numbers (.80+), the temperature ram rise at the wing leading edge
kept the fuel from waxing under most circumstances.

Bob Moore

[Morgans]

"Bob Moore" > wrote\

> I don't know about the Malibu, but the large jet transports that I
> have flown, B-707, B-727, certainly did not have heated fuel tanks.
> Yep, the fuel filters had a heating capability using bleed air from
> the engine compressors.....flightcrew controlled. At higher Mach
> numbers (.80+), the temperature ram rise at the wing leading edge
> kept the fuel from waxing under most circumstances.

Humm, that surprises me. Do they have excess fuel returned to the tank,
which could carry some heat with it?

No worries with the Malibu, since the Mach numbers will keep things nice and
toasty. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[RK Henry]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:44:08 GMT, "AliR" > wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>Me and a friend are wondering why jets leave a white trail behind them. My
>guess is that it's moisture being compressed as it passes through the
>turbine (because some leave a single trail, while others leave two separate
>trails). My friend thinks it's because of moisture being cooled as it
>passes over the wing (Bernoulli effect).
>
>While flying a bonanza I have seen a small white trail extending from the
>wingtip for a little while right after I break through the clouds
>(descending).
>
>Is either one of us right?

While I've never seen condensation with my Warrior, I do have some
observations regarding condensation trails or contrails. There are
different types of contrails.

1. Old WWII newsreels showing B-17s flying over Europe. They're
leaving massive contrails from each of those big round engines. I've
read articles saying that during the war they tried to avoid
altitudes/temperatures where that would occur while over enemy
territory since it would make make the aircraft more visible. Just in
case anyone thought this phenomenon was exclusively a jet
characteristic.
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b17f-10a.jpg

2. TV news coverage of the Space Shuttle landing in Florida (where the
air is often more moist than at Edwards). As the shuttle flew admidst
a few cloud buildups just before touching down, a trail of cloud
appeared at each wingtip. Particularly interesting since the shuttle's
engines aren't operating during the landing phase.

3. Scene from the TV show "Black Sheep Squadron" (AKA "Baa Baa Black
Sheep") showing the Corsairs as they made a tight turn. A whisp of
contrail appeared at each wingtip during the high-g maneuver.

4. At an airshow, the B-1 Bomber come to show off its stuff. As the
last part of the demo, it accelerated to just below mach 1 to thrill
the crowd. As it flew along, the entire amidships of the aircraft was
enshrouded in a white cloud during the time the aircraft was operating
at high speed. Didn't leave much of a trail, but impressive phenomenon
all the same.

5. Films of the moon launch with the Saturn V rocket. I've seen this
footage several times, including I think the movie "Apollo 13." As the
rocket accelerates, a ring of cloud appears around the upper end of
the rocket. I've noticed the same thing on TV coverage of Space
Shuttle launches. Again, no trail.

6. Somewhat unrelated. Once while VFR over a smooth undercast over
Asheville, NC (AVL) I saw that nearby Mt. Mitchell was adorned by a
lovely lens cloud on its downwind side. While the air where I was was
smooth as glass, I can only assume that things wouldn't be so pleasant
over near the mountain. Lens clouds are, of course, formed by the
pressure changes due to high winds over the mountain, similar to some
of the aerodynamic contrails I've noted above. (BTW, in case anyone is
wondering, the undercast cleared out as promised by FSS at my
destination of TRI.)

Just a few examples I remember seeing. Hopefully, someone else can
expand on this interesting subject.

RK Henry

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
>> Others have already explained how there is water diluted in the
> fuel, but I think you forgot something. What do you burn that
> hydrocarbon with? That's right! O2. When the fuel bruns, some of
> that H combines with some of that O2 and you end up with some
> H2O.
>

Nearly all of the H should combine with O2 to make H2O, nearly all of the C
should combine with O2 to make CO2. 95% to 99% would be ball park numbers.
CO goes up as you go rich a lot faster than unburned HC in a piston engine.

Contrails are no different than the white water vapor you see behind cars on
a cold day.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> It is hydroscopic and absorbs water. The water in the
> "spaces" between the hydrocarbon is where the fungus grows.

I still believe that the water contained in the fuel is a small part of
the water contained in the exhaust that is formed when the hydrocarbon
is combusted.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>> If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
>> chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ...
>> carbon and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
>
> \\
> Combustion leaves some hydrogen unclaimed, and the oxygen is really
> happy to claim it, and when it combines two H's, and one O, you get water.
>
> Weren't awake during that day of chemistry, were you, Matt? <g>

That was my point precisely. The water isn't IN the fuel. It is formed
by the fuel and the oxygen in the air via the combustion process. That
isn't at all the same as saying that the water is IN the fuel.


Matt

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> I still believe that the water contained in the fuel is a small part of
> the water contained in the exhaust that is formed when the hydrocarbon is
> combusted.

Sure, some, but remember, the piston heavy bombers left a real nice
contrail, at somewhat lower altitudes, and there was no water in that fuel
being burned, no doubt.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> That was my point precisely. The water isn't IN the fuel. It is formed
> by the fuel and the oxygen in the air via the combustion process. That
> isn't at all the same as saying that the water is IN the fuel.

My misinterpretation. Sorry.

As far as water in the fuel as a contaminate, not a problem getting it to
burn, especially at the temps that occur inside a jet engine combustion
chamber. Any water in the fuel is very quickly evaporated, then there is no
problem getting the combustion to take place. The biggest problem (I'm
guessing) would be at startup, when temps are lower, initially. That all
changes in a hurry, as hot starts are a big thing to avoid.

A couple of things come to mind, when talking about water vapor in the
combustion chamber, which is what the water will be at these temperatures.
Air has a lot of water vapor in it, before it is compressed, and we all know
that works OK. Also, some engines, jet engines included (the Harrier is the
best know example) use water injection to control temperatures and add
efficiency. The Harrier uses a LOT of water, and although most people don't
know it, the water capacity is what determines how long the Harrier can
hover on each flight, because without water injection, the engine will
overheat.

To the other person that said there is not enough left over H to make water
with the O in the air, sorry, incorrect. Water and heat are two byproducts
of combustion. I wish I remembered enough chemistry to balance the
equation. No, I don't! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>> I still believe that the water contained in the fuel is a small part
>> of the water contained in the exhaust that is formed when the
>> hydrocarbon is combusted.
>
>
> Sure, some, but remember, the piston heavy bombers left a real nice
> contrail, at somewhat lower altitudes, and there was no water in that
> fuel being burned, no doubt.

Precisely my point. The contrail is formed not from water IN the fuel,
but by water FORMED when the fuel and air are combusted.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

> To the other person that said there is not enough left over H to make
> water with the O in the air, sorry, incorrect. Water and heat are two
> byproducts of combustion. I wish I remembered enough chemistry to
> balance the equation. No, I don't! <g>

I do remember enough to balance a simple reaction like this. All you
need to do is tell me which hydrocarbon you want to combust! I don't
know the formula for avgas. :-)


Matt

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> To the other person that said there is not enough left over H to make
> water with the O in the air, sorry, incorrect. Water and heat are two
> byproducts of combustion. I wish I remembered enough chemistry to balance
> the equation. No, I don't! <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

HnCm + (n/4 + m)O2 = (n/2)H2O + mCO2

where n and m are the number of H and C atoms in your fuel molecule.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Grumman-581]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
> chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
> and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.

For it to burn, there must be oxygen present, right? And hydrogen and
oxygen give you what?

[Jim Macklin]

I did not mean to say that the entire tank was heated [poor
choice of words on my part] but they do heat the area near
the fuel pickup/screen or use PRIST.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
| "Morgans" >wrote
|
| >
| > "Jim Macklin" >
wrote in
| > message news:kbWzf.66479$QW2.33865@dukeread08...
| >> Most jet aircraft have heated fuel tanks and or use
PRIST.
| >> The fuel control units are heated by engine oil or
electric
| >> elements so the screens stay ice free.
| > \\
| > Yes, I do know all of that, but do smaller jet fueled
planes
| > (Malibu and smaller) have heated tanks?
|
| I don't know about the Malibu, but the large jet
transports that I
| have flown, B-707, B-727, certainly did not have heated
fuel tanks.
| Yep, the fuel filters had a heating capability using bleed
air from
| the engine compressors.....flightcrew controlled. At
higher Mach
| numbers (.80+), the temperature ram rise at the wing
leading edge
| kept the fuel from waxing under most circumstances.
|
| Bob Moore

[Thomas Borchert]

AliR,

if you want some fun, look under chemtrails, too. But don't believe
what you read, please.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:47:25 -0000, Skywise
> wrote:

>Well, they must have been doing this since at least WWII, if not
>sooner, as I regularly see footage of WWII bombers making trails
>over Europe on various cable/sat documentary channels.

Before the bombers there were the fighters in the Battle of Britain.
Really crazy-quilt vapor trails.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:31:45 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>Jet fuel, kerosene, diesel fuel, are all hygroscopic. That means that they
>have an affinity for absorbing water. Great amounts of it. If they absorb
>enough, then it will not burn.

I suppose that's how algae(?) gets to grow in fuel tanks? A friend has
a boat with one diesel tank that's full of gunk; he can't get it out.
And I recall that years ago Pease Air Force Base nearby was bedeviled
by stuff growing in some of its jet-fuel tanks.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Matt Whiting]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
>>chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
>>and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
>
>
> For it to burn, there must be oxygen present, right? And hydrogen and
> oxygen give you what?

Hint: the oxygen doesn't come from the fuel. Hence the fuel isn't full
of oxygen. The fuel is full of hydrogen. That is only half of what you
need to make water.


Matt

[Jim Macklin]

PRIST is a chemical used to kill fungus in kerosene based
fuels and also prevents ice formation. It is pre-blended in
some jet fuel or added at the pump nozzle. It has to be
mixed with the fuel, not just poured in the tank.

It is poisonous. http://csdinc.org/prist/


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.




"Cub Driver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
...
| On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:31:45 -0500, "Morgans"
| > wrote:
|
| >Jet fuel, kerosene, diesel fuel, are all hygroscopic.
That means that they
| >have an affinity for absorbing water. Great amounts of
it. If they absorb
| >enough, then it will not burn.
|
| I suppose that's how algae(?) gets to grow in fuel tanks?
A friend has
| a boat with one diesel tank that's full of gunk; he can't
get it out.
| And I recall that years ago Pease Air Force Base nearby
was bedeviled
| by stuff growing in some of its jet-fuel tanks.
|
|
| -- all the best, Dan Ford
|
| email: usenet AT danford DOT net
|
| Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
| Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
| In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Mark T. Dame]

Darkwing wrote:
>
> Here is the deal on "chemtrails". Ever notice on a nice day with no low,
> medium or high clouds that jets also leave no vapor trails? Why?

Because it's too hard to hide them on clear days!


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"Artificial intelligence researchers were, at times, paradoxically
regarded as both the elite and the "lunatic fringe" of computer
science."
-- Artificial Intelligence Using C, Herbert Schildt

[Mike Schumann]

You guys really need a refresher course in chemistry. When hydrocarbons
burn, the Hydrogen atoms are split off of the carbon. The hydrogen then
combines with Oxygen forming water. The carbon combines with Oxygen to form
CO2. All of this creates lots of heat. There is no "unclaimed" hydrogen.

Also, normal fuel is NOT hydroscopic. Water and fuel don't mix. That's why
you drain it out of the sumps. The water occurs in fuel tanks from
condensation from air in the tanks. It then settles to the bottom of the
tank, as it is heavier than fuel. If there is any significant amount of
water in the fuel, you've got very BIG problems (either your trying to burn
pure water, or you've got frozen fuel lines).

As a side note, some aircraft engines have used water injection as a method
to increase power output during takeoffs.

Mike Schumann

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>> If jet fuel is full of water, how do you get it to burn? When I took
>> chemistry, hydrocarbon fuels contained .... drum roll please ... carbon
>> and hydrogen. No water of any level of significance.
> \\
> Combustion leaves some hydrogen unclaimed, and the oxygen is really happy
> to claim it, and when it combines two H's, and one O, you get water.
>
> Weren't awake during that day of chemistry, were you, Matt? <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

[Blanche]

Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
>How dare you promote the cover story that contrails are just water vapor and
>exhaust. It is an operation by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Disney to poison us
>all. You must be one of them.
>
>OK I made up the Disney part, but you can read the TRUTH at the link below.
>
>http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

Personally, I believe it more from Disney than from the Govt. Acronyms.
I was working at JPL in the early 90s when an RFP came in from one of
the US military organizations. They wanted help defining/describing
an immersive training environment. As we were reading the RFP we
all said in unison "they want a holodeck..." (Just remember, JPL was
a 30 min drive from Paramount Studios, and some of the JPL folk were
"consultants" on Trek. And various incarnations of Trek filmed at
JPL facilities). Of course when Disney (or ILM) wants to do anything,
they just need budget approval from the board or else a signed check
from a customer. When JPL wants to do anything, it's a trip to
Congress.

So who do you think is going to build a working holodeck first?

Heard something earlier this week, that Steve Jobs will become the
single largest shareholder of Disney.

In a similar vein...I remember a great comment in a book from a number
of years ago mentioning the "Military-Industrial-Entertainment Complex".
Seems like it's getting closer and closer.

[Blanche]

> wrote:
>Yeah, everyone knows Disney's mind control system is based in "It's a
>Small World."

gads NO! You just *HAD* to mention that, didn't you? Now that stupid
song's going to be rattling around in my head for the next 3 days...

[Bob Moore]

Blanche >wrote

> > wrote:
>>Yeah, everyone knows Disney's mind control system is based in
>>"It's a Small World."
>
> gads NO! You just *HAD* to mention that, didn't you? Now that
> stupid song's going to be rattling around in my head for the
> next 3 days...

You think that YOU have a problem.......

Shortly after Disney/Orlando opened about 1972, a young lady friend
and myself had the misfortune of being trapped in 'Small World' for
about an hour when the transport mechanism broke.

One solid hour of 'It's a Small World'. :-(

Bob Moore

[Darkwing]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
>>How dare you promote the cover story that contrails are just water vapor
>>and
>>exhaust. It is an operation by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Disney to poison us
>>all. You must be one of them.
>>
>>OK I made up the Disney part, but you can read the TRUTH at the link
>>below.
>>
>>http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
>
> Personally, I believe it more from Disney than from the Govt. Acronyms.
> I was working at JPL in the early 90s when an RFP came in from one of
> the US military organizations. They wanted help defining/describing
> an immersive training environment. As we were reading the RFP we
> all said in unison "they want a holodeck..." (Just remember, JPL was
> a 30 min drive from Paramount Studios, and some of the JPL folk were
> "consultants" on Trek. And various incarnations of Trek filmed at
> JPL facilities). Of course when Disney (or ILM) wants to do anything,
> they just need budget approval from the board or else a signed check
> from a customer. When JPL wants to do anything, it's a trip to
> Congress.
>
> So who do you think is going to build a working holodeck first?
>
> Heard something earlier this week, that Steve Jobs will become the
> single largest shareholder of Disney.
>
> In a similar vein...I remember a great comment in a book from a number
> of years ago mentioning the "Military-Industrial-Entertainment Complex".
> Seems like it's getting closer and closer.
>

You just won the Super Bowl, where you going next?

I'm going to Boot Camp!

---------------------------------------------
DW

[Morgans]

"Mike Schumann" > wrote

> You guys really need a refresher course in chemistry.

So I was trying to explain it it terms of someone who did not have a working
knowlege of chemistry.

> Also, normal fuel is NOT hydroscopic. Water and fuel don't mix. That's
> why you drain it out of the sumps.

You need to re-read the early posts in context. We were talking about
contrails forming behind jets. Jets burn jet fuel, which is close to
kerosene or diesel fuel. It most definitely does mix with water, and is
correctly called hydroscopic.
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> To the other person that said there is not enough left over H to make
>> water with the O in the air, sorry, incorrect. Water and heat are two
>> byproducts of combustion. I wish I remembered enough chemistry to
>> balance the equation. No, I don't! <g>
>
> I do remember enough to balance a simple reaction like this. All you need
> to do is tell me which hydrocarbon you want to combust! I don't know the
> formula for avgas. :-)

I took a real quick look at work today - somewheres near 16 to 25H, 8
to12C. Gasoline tends to the low end of the range, Jet fuel at the high end.
Both, of course, vary so you can pretty much pick what you want.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Morgans]

"Bob Moore" > wrote

> Shortly after Disney/Orlando opened about 1972, a young lady friend
> and myself had the misfortune of being trapped in 'Small World' for
> about an hour when the transport mechanism broke.
>
> One solid hour of 'It's a Small World'. :-(

I felt physically ill, when you mentioned this. Intensive counseling no
doubt followed, for this pour soul.

Oh, the humanity! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Morgans wrote:
>>
>>
>>>To the other person that said there is not enough left over H to make
>>>water with the O in the air, sorry, incorrect. Water and heat are two
>>>byproducts of combustion. I wish I remembered enough chemistry to
>>>balance the equation. No, I don't! <g>
>>
>>I do remember enough to balance a simple reaction like this. All you need
>>to do is tell me which hydrocarbon you want to combust! I don't know the
>>formula for avgas. :-)
>
>
> I took a real quick look at work today - somewheres near 16 to 25H, 8
> to12C. Gasoline tends to the low end of the range, Jet fuel at the high end.
> Both, of course, vary so you can pretty much pick what you want.

Well, someone already beat me to the punch with an algebraic solution
that will handle any HC compound. :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Mike Schumann" > wrote
>
>> You guys really need a refresher course in chemistry.
>
>
> So I was trying to explain it it terms of someone who did not have a
> working knowlege of chemistry.
>
>> Also, normal fuel is NOT hydroscopic. Water and fuel don't mix.
>> That's why you drain it out of the sumps.
>
>
> You need to re-read the early posts in context. We were talking about
> contrails forming behind jets. Jets burn jet fuel, which is close to
> kerosene or diesel fuel. It most definitely does mix with water, and is
> correctly called hydroscopic.

Are you sure?

http://www.photonics.com/dictionary/lookup/XQ/ASP/url.lookup/entrynum.5878/letter.h/pu.yes/QX/lookup.htm


Matt

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> Are you sure?
>
> http://www.photonics.com/dictionary/lookup/XQ/ASP/url.lookup/entrynum.5878/letter.h/pu.yes/QX/lookup.htm
\
Don't confuse the issue with facts! ;-)

Drop the d, add a g. I think that was I originally said, earlier. I don't
know, now.

At any rate, diesel, kerosene and jet A all absorb water, not leaving it in
the bottom of the tank, separately. Go with that concept! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>> Are you sure?
>>
>> http://www.photonics.com/dictionary/lookup/XQ/ASP/url.lookup/entrynum.5878/letter.h/pu.yes/QX/lookup.htm
>>
>
> \
> Don't confuse the issue with facts! ;-)
>
> Drop the d, add a g. I think that was I originally said, earlier. I
> don't know, now.
>
> At any rate, diesel, kerosene and jet A all absorb water, not leaving it
> in the bottom of the tank, separately. Go with that concept! <g>

True, but that isn't what forms the contrails. The water formed by the
combustion process vastly exceeds will little was absorbed into the
fuel. That is the concept of importance. :-)

Matt

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote! <g>
>
> True, but that isn't what forms the contrails. The water formed by the
> combustion process vastly exceeds will little was absorbed into the fuel.
> That is the concept of importance. :-)

<chuckle>
Man, this keeps going round and round.

"I" originally said that the fuel absorbs water, but that that is an
unimportant part of the contrail contribution. "I" originally said that it
is the water produced through the process of combustion, that was
responsible for forming the contrail.

"I" pointed out that the round engines of the WWII bombers produced a good
contrail while burning gas, so that proved that it was combustion making the
water vapor.

Somewhere along the line, someone got into a discussion, as to if jet AQ
would absorb water, or not, and "I" said that it did, but "I" somewhere
slipped with the name, as to if it was hydroscopic or hygroscopic. I admit
that "I" made that mistake, but still "I" claimed that water absorbed in the
fuel is not important, since the trails form from water being formed as the
result of the combustion process.

I don't expect you, or anyone else to go back and look up what I originally
said, as it is not all that important, but if someone does, the proof is
there.

I hope that this puts to rest "MY" role in the great contrail debate. Case
closed? Please?
--
Jim in NC

[george]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>
> >
> > "Matt Whiting" > wrote
> >
> >> Are you sure?
> >>
> >> http://www.photonics.com/dictionary/lookup/XQ/ASP/url.lookup/entrynum.5878/letter.h/pu.yes/QX/lookup.htm
> >>
> >
> > \
> > Don't confuse the issue with facts! ;-)
> >
> > Drop the d, add a g. I think that was I originally said, earlier. I
> > don't know, now.
> >
> > At any rate, diesel, kerosene and jet A all absorb water, not leaving it
> > in the bottom of the tank, separately. Go with that concept! <g>
>
> True, but that isn't what forms the contrails. The water formed by the
> combustion process vastly exceeds will little was absorbed into the
> fuel. That is the concept of importance. :-)

White trails in the sky?
Must be cocaine.
ROTFLMAO