Not sure who to ask...

[reykjavik]

....but I figured this may be a good place to start. I've noticed
recently that during take-off I feel such an immense pressure against
my head and chest area that I literally can't even see straight. (its a

very strange feeling of helplessness that lasts maybe 10 seconds after
take off) I know it sounds crazy, but thats really the only way I can
describe.

I can assure you its not anxiety as I have flown literally hundreds of
times from big planes to small and have been all over the world. So
flying does not worry me. I also noticed that this symptom doesn't
occurr at all if I sit behind the wings so Im thinking it must have to
do with some sort of pressure issue.

My question is, why, after 25 years, did this pressure issue become an
issue now? Why is it better if I sit behind the wings? What is it?
Is it a dangerous issue? Why do I seem to be the only one with this
problem (I look around the cabin after I regain compsure and no one
looks like they were feeling the same effects)...

[John Gaquin]

"reykjavik" > wrote in message

> recently that during take-off I feel such an immense pressure against
> my head and chest area that I literally can't even see straight. (its a
>
>....symptom doesn't
> occurr at all if I sit behind the wings so Im thinking it must have to
> do with some sort of pressure issue.
>
> My question is, why, after 25 years, did this pressure issue become an

I recall something similar once or twice over the years. Purely
speculative, but I'll try.......

Because you're getting older (and perhaps your body can't adapt to changes
as quickly as it used to), and because the problem only seems to occur when
you're in the front end of the airplane, and because it includes what you
describe as a sense of helplessness, I'm guessing that what you're
experiencing is the onset of mild vertigo -- spatial disorientation --
brought about by both the acceleration and the rotation of the aircraft.
Once the airplane is up and climbing, and has become "relatively" stable,
your problem seems to sort itself out as your brain comes to grips with this
new reality. You don't know how to describe it because you have no idea
what's causing it. Google "vertigo" for straight clinical information, or
"aviation vertigo" for the more particular ways the term is used in regard
to flying. Ask your doctor, next time you get a chance.

[Larry Dighera]

On 21 Jan 2006 06:43:17 -0800, "reykjavik" > wrote
in . com>::

>I feel such an immense pressure against
>my head and chest area that I literally can't even see straight.

Could it be a cardiac issue?

[reykjavik]

Thanks for replying!

I guess I should clarify, Im not a pilot, when i speak of flying I mean
on commercial jets as a customer. also, when I say Ive been flying for
25 years, I mean I am 25 years old and I've been flying my whole life.
25 yrs of age is when the body starts slowing down, not adapting as
fast as it used to so I think it may be what you speculate, a vertigo
issue in relation to the rapid transition (its always when the plane
has taken off [never when its landing] and then specificaly starts
elevating rapidly, then it stops about 10 seconds later, I suspect its
because although the plane isn't done elevating, it doesn't have to
elevate as quickly since its further away from the airport??). The
most pressure and sensitivity I feel during these episodes is directly
dead center of my forehead. Its such a bizzare feeling, you really
feel like something has taken over you and there is nothing you can do,
I even begin to squirm a little but it never lasts long enough to do
anything substantial. I know how crazy this must all sound, but it
really is true!

I suspected a heart condition like you sated above but Im a healthy 25
year old, and it doesn't happen when I sit towards the back of plane
and although thats not proof it isn't a cardiac issue it just seems
like if it was one, it would ocurr regardless of where I sat. but I
have a doctors appnt soon so I will get tested for everything (you
never know).

I tried googling aviation vertigo but basically nothing shows up and
what does seems to referr entirely to pilots of air fighter jets....
(clearly not my demographic). Then i tried looking up vertigo itself
but nothing there seems to mention planes... is there a happy medium?
:)

[John Gaquin]

"reykjavik" > wrote in message
>
> I tried googling aviation vertigo but basically nothing shows up and
> what does seems to referr entirely to pilots of air fighter jets....

The point of the aviation vertigo references is not that the phenomenon is
restricted to fighter pilots, but that they are the most obvious example of
the effects.

You can feel [aviation] vertigo anytime your inner ear signals do not match
up with what your eyes are seeing. When your brain tries to process these
conflicting signals, confusion results. If the conflict is mild, as with
most people on an airplane, it is relatively easy to overcome. As you
accelerate and rotate to a flying attitude, your ears sense this but your
eyes see only the stationary, placid interior of the cabin. For most
people, the simple knowledge that you are on an aircraft taking off is
enough to allow your brain to reconcile the conflict.

Perhaps you've already tried this: Next time you're tavelling, make a point
of looking out of the window during take-off, so that your eyes confirm what
your ears are saying to your brain.

John Gaquin

[George Patterson]

reykjavik wrote:

> I tried googling aviation vertigo ...

Try variations of "benign positional vertigo." That should give you a starting
point. A good neurologist can tackle this.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[reykjavik]

John Gaquin wrote:
> "reykjavik" > wrote in message
> >
> > I tried googling aviation vertigo but basically nothing shows up and
> > what does seems to referr entirely to pilots of air fighter jets....
>
> The point of the aviation vertigo references is not that the phenomenon is
> restricted to fighter pilots, but that they are the most obvious example of
> the effects.
>
> You can feel [aviation] vertigo anytime your inner ear signals do not match
> up with what your eyes are seeing. When your brain tries to process these
> conflicting signals, confusion results. If the conflict is mild, as with
> most people on an airplane, it is relatively easy to overcome. As you
> accelerate and rotate to a flying attitude, your ears sense this but your
> eyes see only the stationary, placid interior of the cabin. For most
> people, the simple knowledge that you are on an aircraft taking off is
> enough to allow your brain to reconcile the conflict.
>
> Perhaps you've already tried this: Next time you're tavelling, make a point
> of looking out of the window during take-off, so that your eyes confirm what
> your ears are saying to your brain.
>
> John Gaquin

You know, now that you mention it, every time this has occurred, I have
been in an aisle seat not looking out, or in a window seat but it was
dark out so I didn't look out the window. And almost every time I have
been seated in front of the wings its because I was in first class (no,
Im not wealthy, I just spend all my miles on upgrades) and seated far
from the window (now that all the first class seats are fancy theyre
too big to be placed right up against the window). Plus when you're
behind the wings you have everything in front of you to look at passing
by, but if youre in front of the wings all you basically can look at
(since the cockpit obstructs your view) is the distant horizon or the
sky which I guess for me may not be enough to stave off this problem.

The only thing is, I do remember once a looong time ago not looking out
the window when the plane took off and I dont recall this happening.
Could it be a life transitional thing, meaning, something you just get
simply because youre older (like some people develop allergies later in
life, others lose their allergies altogether etc...)?

Also, is this "illness" (or whatever its called) serious in any way?

[George Patterson]

reykjavik wrote:

> Also, is this "illness" (or whatever its called) serious in any way?

*If* it's vertigo, it can be symptomatic of certain serious illnesses (such as
cancer). Vertigo can also be caused by a sudden movement of the head, such as
might happen if your car were struck from behind. It can also be a reaction to
long-term overindulgence in caffeine.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[reykjavik]

yeah see the issue is, I never have vertigo in any other instance. Ive
never had a problem with balance or dizziness, in fact I have rather
good balance. So this is either a vertigo issue that my inner ear is
sensitive to under extreme pressure instances, or something entirely
else, because outside of this very specific plane scenario, I never
have gotten that feeling before, or even a vertigo of a much milder
form. I can turn my head quickly a million times, get out of bed
quickly, stand up quickly etc... and I never get dizzy or have any
symptoms of anything else.

Its leading me to belive that after 25 years of major sinus infections
and awful allergies, my inner ear area may have gotten sensitive (or
possibly even scarred) and is now hyper sensitive to the pressure and
thus causes vertigo, or its a cardiac thing which is unlikely being
that I have no other symptoms and im 25, but hey, I've seen more
surprising things in my life (lets hope I don't tack this on to the
list).

[G Farris]

I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to have any particular insight into this
question, but I have to say I'm skeptical about all of the references to
"pressure" and related physical effects. Depending on what type of aircraft you
are flying in, the takeoff roll will take anywhere from 30sec to a minute, to
attain a speed of 120-130Kt or so. That's a slower acceleration than your own
car starting out at a red light. Atmospheric pressure differential at takeoff
is about the same as going up the stairs in your own house. There may indeed be
a moment of disorientation as you leave the ground, as our sneses are not
"programmed" to understand this event, but the purely physical penomena at the
moment of takeoff in an airliner are simply not very extreme, compared with
everyday events, such as walking and driving.

What do you mean when you say you "cannot see straight"? Do you see blackness?
Do you see distorted images? Tunnel vision? What visual disturbances do you
perceive?

Do you have headaches? You complain of sinus problems - has any doctor ever
suggested you may have a migrane condition?

Otherwise, even though you say you are comfortable flying, one is strongly
tempted to suspect this is a panic response, and the symptoms are
psycho-somatic.

G Faris

[reykjavik]

Well let me clear up again that when I say "pressure" I do in fact have
no idea what Im talking about. Im not a scientist, Im not a pilot nor
have I significantly studied either. So I am just saying "pressure"
because I don't know what else to really call it all.

To answer Marks questions, when it does happen, it happens about 1
minute after the wheels leave the ground. There is a period in flight
(again, don't know what its called but I can feel it) about a minute
after take off when the plane feels like its dipping down and yet
flying up at the same time and its that time which causes the issue.
It feel a little like a negative-G feeling.

As to G's questions, when I say I can't see straight, I don't see
blackness, I see the same way I see as if you've just been spun around
a lot, meaning I can see everything, no bluriness, but nothing is
really staying put, kind of bouncing all over the place. The same thing
you'd see if you were squirming around...

I have never gotten a migraine before so I doubt its a migraine issue
(especially if it only comes out during the take off of a flight).

I totally do not blame you for thinking its a panic response, I know
anxiety (my father is a psychiatrist) and I've been aorund people with
psychological disorders. I also would know when I was suffrering from
one, and I too am very quick to dismiss most things as psychological,
but I can assure you this particular issue isn't for me. Within 4
months of 9/11 I took 16 flights, 4 in one day alone! Im telling you,
when it comes to flying, Im not anxious. Also, I am very familiar with
anxiety symptoms, they are much more general, they usually start
pre-boarding and last throughout the flight. Ive never heard of a
panic disorder thats lasts specifically 10 seconds, nothing longer
nothing shorter, and is immediately gone. No panic disorder can go
away that quickly without meds. Plus, and I know this is hard to
portray (nor do you have to believe me) butu when it happens, I
literally feel an outside force as oppose to anxiety which is way more
internal.

[Morgans]

"reykjavik" > wrote

> There is a period in flight
> (again, don't know what its called but I can feel it) about a minute
> after take off when the plane feels like its dipping down and yet
> flying up at the same time and its that time which causes the issue.
> It feel a little like a negative-G feeling.

Sounds like the feeling when the flaps finish fully retracting, and the
plane momentarily dips, as it accelerates, and settles on a new angle of
attack. That is about when that occurs, and it is a bit of a strange
feeling, and could cause a bit of vertigo.

Also, it is about then that the cabin starts buildin pressure, to keep you
from feeling like you are way high in the atmosphere.

> As to G's questions, when I say I can't see straight, I don't see
> blackness, I see the same way I see as if you've just been spun around
> a lot, meaning I can see everything, no bluriness, but nothing is
> really staying put, kind of bouncing all over the place. The same thing
> you'd see if you were squirming around...

The plane at some point changes its climb, from very steep to get the noise
away from the ground, to gaining speed, and climbing at a little slower
rate. If you get used to the very steep angle of climb, then all of a
sudden, it is not as steep, your mind may try to tell you that you are not
climbing, but your eyes are telling you that you are.

It always seems strange to me, when you look up the tube (the fuselage
inside) and try to figure out how steep the angle really is. It is hard to
resolve this factor to me. Perhaps that is part of your strange feeling,
but I really think the flaps retracting, and the following dip is the main
thing that is getting to you.
--
Jim in NC

[reykjavik]

I think thats what it is as well. What really surprises me is why Im
the only one who seems to have this problem....I look around the cabin
after this happens to me and I just see people lounging back....

oh well, I guess Im unique :)

Thnaks everyone for writing in!

[Aluckyguess]

Have you gotten laid lately.
Just a thought.
Seriously I would see a doctor and explain this to him. You can never be to
save.
"reykjavik" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ...but I figured this may be a good place to start. I've noticed
> recently that during take-off I feel such an immense pressure against
> my head and chest area that I literally can't even see straight. (its a
>
> very strange feeling of helplessness that lasts maybe 10 seconds after
> take off) I know it sounds crazy, but thats really the only way I can
> describe.
>
> I can assure you its not anxiety as I have flown literally hundreds of
> times from big planes to small and have been all over the world. So
> flying does not worry me. I also noticed that this symptom doesn't
> occurr at all if I sit behind the wings so Im thinking it must have to
> do with some sort of pressure issue.
>
> My question is, why, after 25 years, did this pressure issue become an
> issue now? Why is it better if I sit behind the wings? What is it?
> Is it a dangerous issue? Why do I seem to be the only one with this
> problem (I look around the cabin after I regain compsure and no one
> looks like they were feeling the same effects)...
>

[Morgans]

"reykjavik" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>I think thats what it is as well. What really surprises me is why Im
> the only one who seems to have this problem....I look around the cabin
> after this happens to me and I just see people lounging back....
>
> oh well, I guess Im unique :)
>
> Thnaks everyone for writing in!

Perhaps everyone else feels it, but expects to feel wierd stuff, so they
just ignore it?
--
Jim in NC
>

[G Farris]

In article >, says...

>
>Sounds like the feeling when the flaps finish fully retracting, and the
>plane momentarily dips, as it accelerates, and settles on a new angle of
>attack. That is about when that occurs, and it is a bit of a strange
>feeling, and could cause a bit of vertigo.
>
>Also, it is about then that the cabin starts building pressure, to keep you
>from feeling like you are way high in the atmosphere.

Good suggestion - however, the flap retraction is usually several minutes
into a flight - if the OP's suggestion that this event happens within the
first two minutes of flight is accurate, this would usually be a bit too early
for flap retraction. Also, retraction of the flaps is so well compensated in
today's airliners that it is not usually associated with a perceptible change
in attitude (though I admit you can feel "something" at this time). Finally,
while it is true that the pressurization cycle starts at this time, the
pressurization only compensates for the loss in pressure due to the climb. At
no point does the cabin pressure exceed the initial, ground-level pressure.

The visual perception of the tube "pointing upward" is an excellent
suggestion, and could be related to the OP's observation that his experience
is different if he is in the back of the tube.
>
>> As to G's questions, when I say I can't see straight, I don't see
>> blackness, I see the same way I see as if you've just been spun around
>> a lot, meaning I can see everything, no bluriness, but nothing is
>> really staying put, kind of bouncing all over the place. The same thing
>> you'd see if you were squirming around...

Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse. If you do not have headaches, I
suppose it is very uinlikely you are suffering from migraine. It's the visual
disturbances that made me wonder about that - migraine sufferers call this
"aura".
http://www.migraine-aura.org/EN/Classification_of_visual_disturbances.html


In ther end, it's probably some sort of vertigo or spatial disorientation, as
others here have suggested. It would certainly be worth visiting a doctor, if
only to rule out anything serious. And don't even think about getting a PPL!!
:-)

[Mike Weller]

On 21 Jan 2006 20:17:58 -0800, "reykjavik" >
wrote:

>yeah see the issue is, I never have vertigo in any other instance. Ive
>never had a problem with balance or dizziness, in fact I have rather
>good balance. So this is either a vertigo issue that my inner ear is
>sensitive to under extreme pressure instances, or something entirely
>else, because outside of this very specific plane scenario, I never
>have gotten that feeling before, or even a vertigo of a much milder
>form. I can turn my head quickly a million times, get out of bed
>quickly, stand up quickly etc... and I never get dizzy or have any
>symptoms of anything else.
>
>Its leading me to belive that after 25 years of major sinus infections
>and awful allergies, my inner ear area may have gotten sensitive (or
>possibly even scarred) and is now hyper sensitive to the pressure and
>thus causes vertigo, or its a cardiac thing which is unlikely being
>that I have no other symptoms and im 25, but hey, I've seen more
>surprising things in my life (lets hope I don't tack this on to the
>list).


Good Lord, you gave me vertigo just reading this.

Get your head up straight, focus on infinity, and go with the flow.

Mike Dweller